[A couple Kotor 1 questions]

The last star map isn't always on Korriban, it depends in what order you do the planets.

I know this.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

I would rather not be drawn into this discussion again, but I need to point out some things. So Revan's apparent attack on the Rakata didn't kill them instantly, that's what you're saying.

That was an attack from a Force Storm actually and this power is much more devastating then normal Lightning. See the image of Sidious's attack as a reference.

 

That is cut content. It was never included in the game. Therefore, it is not canon.

I don't really care.

 

Yoda was not semi-successful and he did not fall apart- he was successful.

 

The reason he lost his lightsaber was not because Sidious' lightning was so powerful, it was because he was taken by surprise.

 

Yoda successfully blocked Sidious' lightning. He first attempted to absorb it, but that was unssuccessful, so he decided to shoot it back at Sidious. The contact between the lightning and Sidious' hands created an explosion which blasted them both backwards.

 

And the location of where they fell is relevant. As we see, Sidious falls on the side of the "chair" where there is a rail to hold on to. Yoda happens to fall on the side where there is a long drop with nothing to grab.

Look Buddy!

 

Yoda is not an immature Jedi who will always be surprised by Sidious moves. He was holding his Light Saber firmly in his hand and Sidious Lightning struck with such a strong intensity that it blew Yoda's Light Saber out of his hand. And Yoda was semi-successful in blocking Sidious Lightning because his defence resulted in a blast and he fell apart. But this was not the case in Dooku's fight, in which Yoda successfully blocked Dooku's Lightning without any difficulty.

 

And I have said before that his place of fall is irrelevant.

[A couple Kotor 1 questions]

i been playing kotor 1 again and i was curious does the leviation always follow korriban? and do i need high persuade to yuthura back to the light?

The Leviathan event occurs after you have accessed 4 Star Maps. Then 1 more Star Map is left and that is on Korriban.

 

And in-order to turn Yuthura back to Light, you need to make her your friend first and for this you require high persuade skill.

 

And your persuade skill should be above 14.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Not sure, but I'd be surprised if they were less than Yoda's, absorbing power apparently being what Nihilus does best.

An assumption and thats it. Not very convincing.

 

Electricity damage is electricity damage, no matter how you deliver it. You're either protected from or you're not. So coming from different angles might not matter a whole lot, unless you're using some sort of physical shield to deflect it, which is not relevant in this case.

Electricity damage is deadly to living bodies. It causes horrible burns and continuous zapping from it will kill an individual.

 

20-30 yards is already pushing it with a war quite literally going on outside.

Still is safe distance. Sion was only 7-8 feet away when Nihilus launched his attack on him.

 

That's an impressive display of force lightning and no mistake. But yes, lightning does come close to that. The arc is just wider than usual.

No! normal Lightning does not comes close to that. Their are several Lightning bolts in Sidious's attack and this does not happens in case of normal Lightning attack (because normal Lightning cannot hit so many individuals). Get your eyes checked.

 

Well, I can scarcely argue with you there, because the "hit points" or "vitality" of d20 games is one of my own pet peeves with that system. Lightning should paralyze and cause horrible burns and so, as it did with Luke, but the game rules don't reflect that sort of thing at all, which is one reason why I really hate d20 rules. Still, if we abandon them completely, then we have no basis for discussion. Or we get to claim whatever with want to. Neither of which is very enlightening.

So you are also having troubles with rules applied in "Game Mechanics" as well. So why not admit this in clear terms?

 

Actually, I've always thought that Obi-Wan used Force Heal or some version of it on Luke, when he put his hand over him after the Sand People attack in Episode IV. Isn't it odd that Luke is struck down and lies there unconscious, apparently lifeless, but when Obi-Wan bends over him, he wakes up immediately? Definitely something going on there, I think. So it's not as if there is no basis in canon for claiming that. And if we accept Force Resistance, then it's easy to accept Force Immunity, since it really is just a more powerful version of the same ability. I'd say it's about the same ability as you call Force Deflect. Besides, I can find no entry for Force Deflect on Wookieepediea, whereas Force Immunity is right here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Immunity

Force Immunity is not canon and we don't see this power being demonstrated in Novels and Movies. And Novels and movies are greater canon materials then Games.

 

Wookieepedia is not 100% perfect and I have mentioned this before.

It was, because Sidious never got to fire that lightning attack fully. He kept pushing for it, but then so did Yoda. The result was not that Yoda was fried. No. The result was that resonance of power between the two caused a burst that sent them both flying. Yoda just happened to be unlucky that this sent him flying to the bottom of the senate hall, whereas Sidious was able to hold onto the side of the "chair." Clearly the power is not unstoppable, and given Sidious' level of power with this ability, it's rather impressive that Yoda was able to keep it at bay at all. But he did.

Yoda managed to counter it but he was semi-successful. But in case of Dooku, he properly countered his Lightning attack, so difference is clear.

 

And Yoda fell apart and where he actually fell is irrelevant.

 

Actually, most of them do, only you might not notice that, since the game balances all your enemies to reflect your new power level, and therefore nothing seems to change. If you don't want to argue game rules, then fair enough, but if you do, you should at least take a look at how those mechanics work first. It's not as if there aren't plenty of game guides out there that explain it all.

Yes! I am not using "Game Mechanics" and I will not do that because some rules used in "Game Mechanics" are not accurate in terms of Canonical Reality.

 

Yes, but my point is that the rules don't reflect that possibility. D20 combat rules is just boring dice-rolling until someone drops dead. There is no surprise or strategy in them IMHO, which is my major problem with them.

So "Game Mechanics" have its own flaws and are not ideal in debates.

 

You have claimed it, but you have not convinced me. It still seems obvious to me that Yoda blocked Sidious' attack. If you look carefully, you'll even see that Yoda wants to jump Sidious with his lightsaber, but Sidious zaps him, knocking his lightsaber out his hands. Yoda is right on the edge already, YET HE DOESN'T FALL OVER. In fact, had Yoda moved backwards at all, he would have fallen down already, so clearly lightning doesn't strike as strongly as you suggest. Sidious then pushes the attack, and Yoda begins to deflect it. As Sidious pushes forward and pours power into the attack, you'll note Yoda deflecting it and befriely leaning backwards from the assault, before he then begins actually PUSHING THE ATTACK BACK ON SIDIOUS. Indeed, he pushes it all the way back to Sidious' very hands, at which point the collision of power between the two of them "erupts" in a burst that sends them both flying. If you want to see it, the entire bit begins exactly 1 hour 48 minutes and 55 seconds into the movie on my dvd. And yes, I've just checked it again to make sure I'm right

Yoda blocked Sidious attack with his "Force Deflect" ability and not with the Light Saber. Their is clear distinction between these two blocking abilities. And Yoda's defense was semi-successful and finally he falls apart.

 

Ah, "uber-power not available to other people." Always nice. But wait, Obi-Wan deflected Dooku's lightning attack with HIS lightsaber in Episode II. Although you can claim that Sidious is more powerful, that does seem to speak against your point that Windu doing so is completely unique for that character alone, I think.

Obi-Wan does not knows Vaapad. And Dooku's mastery in Lightning is not on par with that of Sidious. My points are clear.

 

Just because Yoda didn't pull it off does not mean that it's not possible. Obi-Wan did it against Dooku, and Yoda and Sidious are both stronger than either of them.

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in the movies. His defensive abilities are far better then that of Luke in ROTJ. So if Yoda failed to block Sidious's Lightning with his Light Saber, then Luke stands no chance.

 

But suddenly Force Storm is instant in canon? Why? Because otherwise your argument is flawed? As others have pointed out, we actually don't know that Revan's use of Force Storm then wasn't a continuous lightning attack against the One's warriors and beasts either.

Force Storm attack has been described in a narration and narrations are canon. And also Force Storm has been demonstrated by Darth Bane and this was mentioned in POD Novel, and Novels are higher source of canon then Games. So Force Storm is clearly canon power.

 

Although Leia that power is called Force Storm, it clearly is not the Force Storm power you have been describing here. And we certainly have no basis for claiming that Revan has that power. Especially not since Luke reveals that having used that power, Palpatine has unleashed a chaos that even he cannot control. Revan was always careful about that sort of thing - always the strategist, he never unleashed anything he couldn't control himself. That's why he never used the Star Forge to its full potential, after all.

I know that Force Storm (demonstrated in DE by Sidious) is a different power. But my point is that not all canonical powers are limited to a certain radius and this power is one such example. And I have never claimed that Revan has this power so stop putting words in my mounth as well.

 

So even then there are limits, because even Palpatine couldn't control that power, and obviously it did not destroy the entire Alliance fleet. Also, by merely focusing on separating Palpatine from his use of the power, Luke and Leia turn it on Palpatine himself. As impressive a display of destruction as it is, you really do have to admit that this very force storm is also what destroys Palpatine himself in that confrontation. So I don't think it's a power that Revan would ever use, and certainly not in a casual encounter with a few rakatan warriors and other beasts. And that's assuming Revan even has the power, which I find highly doutbful.

Leia used "Battle Meditation" ability to stop it. Now Nihilus does not have this ability or does he?

 

Ah, but you have no canonic use of Force Storm to support that claim. The only canonic use of Force Storm you have mentioned is a description by The One, and we have no idea how instant or continuous that Force Storm was. Force Lighting is instant in the game mechanics, just as Force Storm is. But you say lightning is more continuous in canon. Might the same not then also apply to force storm? That would seem to be a reasonable conclusion to me.

Yes! I have provided two things that make Force Storm canon:

 

- Narration.

- POD Novel.

 

And in case you forgot that The One also said that Revan's attack came from above (Sky) and then hit his warriors. Normal Lightning does not hits individuals from above.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Since the powers in the games are made to mirror those in the movies, that does not seem very persuasive to me. They might be more effective outside the games, but not by much really. If they were, the games would reflect it.

Powers in the games do mirror that of in the movies but they are not as effective. And I think that in KOTOR 3, they should make gameplay powers as close to canonical reality as possible.

 

Nihilus can lauch his attack from the distance of an orbit around a planet, which would typically be around 35,000 km above the surface of an Earth-sized planet. Far longer than any application of Force Storm in any event.

I agree! But he had proper time to prepare for such an event and the Jedi never knew that what was coming. And in a one-on-one situation, time is short and you have to react very fast.

 

Besides, there is nothing to suggest that Nihilus can't resist force powers himself. Yoda clearly is able to do so, and while we can only speculate on Nihilus' powers in this regard, it is just as reasonable for me to speculate that he can resist this power as it is for you to assume that Revan's Force Storm has a far greater range and power-level than it has in the game mechanics.

Of-course! Nihilus would have had his own defensive abilties but what are they exactly?

 

And Force Storm can't be deflected like Force Lightning because it's style of hitting an opponent is different and their are many Lightning bolts in it coming straight on your head with massive intensity. And "Force Immunity" is not canon.

 

I have both seen all the movies in the cinema several times and own them all on dvd. Clearly Yoda and Dooku were close enough to have a conversation, so clearly any gun has a longer range, which is not what I would call "safe distance".

They were still positioned many yards away from each other. And people can talk loud.

 

Chain Lightning seems to be just a variant of how Force Lightning strikes, which doesn't suggest that it does more damage or has longer reach in any event. And as I have said, using game mechanics to explain things is still better than for any of us to jump to whatever baseless conclusions we want to.

Really? check this then: http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sidiouspwnsnx0.jpg (this image is from a Canon Novel of Sidious)

 

Does normal Lightning comes even close to intensity of this attack?

 

And Game Mechanics are not good for proper explanation of Force Powers because they don't mirror canonical damage. And some gameplay powers are not even canon like "Force Immunity" and "Force Heal". You don't heal your physical wounds with the Force and "Force Immunity" has never been demonstrated in canon materials. And "Force Deflect" is true canon defensive power and it is performed through hands.

 

Ah, but Yoda DID block Sidious' attack in ROTS. He did that when they were fighting in the senate hall. But you're right that he failed to block it in Palpatine's personal chambers. Now why is that? Could it be because Palpatine simply used his lightning attack before Yoda could put up his defenses? I suspect as much. In either way, Yoda was never surprised by Dooku's attack, so I doubt this the situation is quite as conclusive as you seem to think.

He tried to block it and look at his face expressions then. And he finally fell apart due to the sheer intensity behind Sidious's Lightining, so Yoda's defense was not successful.

 

No, better attributes makes it more difficult for opponents to resist taking full damage from your lightning attack. When someone uses a force power, the victim usually gets a "saving throw" to avoid the full effect of the power. In the case of any of the Lightning attacks, making this saving throw means that the damage is cut to half. But if the force-user has good attributes, then the saving throw becomes more difficult to make, and so the attack will tend to inflict more damage on account of more victims failing that saving throw. The damage inflicted by ligtning attacks, however, is determined by the force-user's experience level alone.

I have not noticed that Force powers become more effective with "Leveling-Up". They do not actually.

 

We don't know that they didn't. But I do agree that the D20 rules are stupid and frequently lead to silly assumptions. Going by those rules, there is no way Obi-Wan could ever have defeated Darth Maul, when Maul had just killed Qui-Gon, who was clearly far more experienced Obi-Wan and probably Maul too. Let alone that there is no way Luke could ever have won a fight against Vader AND Palpatine under those rules. I don't like the D20 rules. I have said so before, I will say it again. But however much I dislike them, they are still better than going by completely baseless speculation.

Obi-Wan won through a surprising move!

 

And "Gameplay Mechanics" are also not good way to explain the effectiveness of Force Powers because they also involve D20 rules.

 

So it IS possible to counter Sidious lightning attacks after all? You know, Palpatine only ever uses his force powers against three people during all the movies. One could resist it (Yoda), one could deflect it (Windu), and one was defenseless because he was not even a full jedi knight and had even thrown his lightsaber away (Luke). I don't think that gives us a particularly good basis for concluding how unstoppable Palpatine's force lightning really is...

 

- Yoda failed to successfully deflect it. I have explained the reason above.

- Mace's Vaapad gave him the advantage and others don't have this ability.

- Luke was not powerful enough to block Sidious's Lightning attack even with his Light Saber, because even Yoda could not do this.

 

And Lightning kills you slowly but painfully because it works in a continuous fashion. But in KOTOR games, Lightning is not continuous, which is an additional reason that Lightning is not accurately mirrored in the games.

 

You say that as if "game mechanics" is some magic wand you can wave and then discard the entire argument. I don't entirely agree with you on that. Though game mechanics are not conclusive, neither is canon, and game mechanics always attempt to mirror canon in Star Wars. That makes it at least relevant to consider why the game mechanics have been written the way they have.

No! "Game Mechanics" only follow certain rules that do not apply properly in canonical reality of Star Wars.

 

So, in canon you alone gets to decide what those limits are, if Lucas hasn't defined them for you already? Sorry, but that's not very compelling either...

You can take an example of a "Force Storm" power demonstrated by Sidious in Dark Empire EU based event and that power was limitless and it destroyed an entire fleet. So my point stands that not all canon Force Powers are limited.

 

You really should try to play a very high leveled Exile using Force Push on someone in an open field or similar. It's true they don't fly far in the Trayus Academy, but what... Did you expect them crash through the walls?

I will try it.

 

The movies themselves are not particularly conclusive on this matter. If you accept that Palpatine is the strongest user of force lightning ever, then how do you explain that he zaps Luke again, and again, and again, and Luke STILL doesn't die. If you were right, Luke should have been dead after one blast, but he isn't. You could claim that he's toying with Luke, but it's obvious to me that after saying, "and now, jedi, you will die" he isn't holding back anything and giving Luke the full dose. He certainly is once Vader grabs him, and clearly Vader is still able to throw Palpatine to his death anyway. Now, if Palpatine is the most powerful user of force lightning ever, then how can you EVER claim that Revan's lightning power could instantly kill Nihilus in one attack?!? Sorry, but that really doesn't add up.

Force Lightning in canonical reality kills slowly but painfully. Although, its more advanced variant like "Force Storm" kills more quickly because several bolts of Lightning hits an individual instantly from above in that power.

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Drain_Knowledge

and

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Drain

 

Wookieepedia would seem to disagree with you. So do I, btw.

Lets call it Drain Life then.

 

You claimed only Revan earned the respect of the Mandalorians. Or at least you managed to imply it. But the Exile and Bao-Dur earned respect too, though for different reasons than Revan.

No! I said that Revan was among those who earned respect of Mandalorians.

 

And actually, the Mandalorians' respect for Revan would only mirror the respect they had for Exar Kun. The Mandalorians actually joined Exar Kun in his crusade. They never did that for Revan, when he turned against the jedi.

Both events took place at different times and Exar Kun was planning to destroy Republic and Jedi, so his plans were similar as that of Mandalorians. So Mandalorians had a good enough reason to join him.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Can't be blocked eh? Well explain how Obi-Wan blocked Dooku's lightning attack in AOTC. He didn't use Vaapad style, so it's obviously not limited to the stance of the victim.

Dooku's mastery in Lightning is not that great and was surely not on par with that of Sidious. Sidious would have pawned Obi-Wan with his Lightning attack as even Yoda failed to block his Lightning attack in his ROTS fight. And Sidious can perform chain Lightning as well but Dooku can't.

 

Did you notice how much closer Yoda is to Sidious than he is to Dooku? I'm thinking Sidious caught him by surprise, and being that close the force of it knocked his lightsaber out.

Yoda can perform "Force Deflect" and in case it fails, then he can absorb DS attacks as well. And distance is irrelevant here. Defensive abilities can be effective even if you are close to the attacker's position. And Yoda was caught in the surprise early in the fight when he was hit by "Force Shock".

 

Sidious blew Yoda's Light Saber out from his hand with his Lightning attack later-on in the fight.

 

Wrong. Force Drain in KotOR is not the same thing as Drain Knowledge. In KotOR, it's called Drain Life. Bandon uses Death Field, the more advanced form of Drain Life, but like Force Storm, it does no more damage to your enemies, it just takes life away from everyone around you.

Ok! Lets call it Drain Life.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Canon is canon. If later canon revises stuff about Malachor V, then we'll have to deal with that, but for now there is no reason to, since TSL's information about it stands. And since the planet is canonically destroyed in the end, it is unlikely we'll ever see revision that will alter events as they are in TSL. There would be no reason to that I can see.

Fine! and I have not said that I disagree with TSL's information.

 

In which case we all get to claim that those powers can canonically do whatever we prefer them to do? Sorry, but no. If a canon source had estalished this, it would be one thing, but since it doesn't, we have little choice but to look at the game mechanics for now. I agree that's not a good source, but it better than nothing. It's also better than blindly accepting anyone's opinion of what the power might do, whether that opinion be yours or mine or whomever's.

WTH?

 

Force Powers do what they are intended to. You just launch and see the results and results seen in the movies are far better then what we see in the games.

 

It is in the game rules. But fine, let's say we extend. How much then? Even if we take it up to 100 meters, ten times what it is in the rules, it still pales horribly next to Nihilus' draining powers. So it's a moot point.

100 meters is a very safe distance to begin with. And if Revan launches his "Force Storm" from such a far away distance and this is before Nihilus does something and gets hit by it, then Nihilus will be destroyed.

 

How far then? Fine, I'll accept 20 or 30 meters, but I don't think we see anything beyond that in any of the movies, comic books, or whatever. And naturally, it still wouldn't help Revan against Nihilus.

Fine! still it is good enough distance to launch an attack and surprise an enemy.

 

No basis for that conclusion, so I'll have to disagree. It's almost as if you're saying that because we can't be sure, you surely must be right in your assumption. What's to prevent me from saying the same about my conclusions? What's to stop anyone else, for that matter?

Have you seen the movies? if yes then you would have noticed that Dooku launched his Lightning attack on Yoda from a very safe distance. The evidence is clear enough.

 

Funny - my force lightning attacks could always hit several individuals if I positioned my character carefully... Shock was another matter, though.

What does your character's game based Force Lightning have to do with canonical reality? And if you haven't noticed yet, their is an advanced form of Force Lightning, which does the samething as you have mentioned here. This is actually called "Chain Lightning".

 

Actually, they both inflict exactly the same amount of damage - 1d6 per level up to a certain maximum. But I do agree that it might be difficult to see, since:

 

1. You naturally progress to higher levels, so learning a new power at a new level would make it seem more potent. This is due to the increased character level, however, not because the power itself does greater damage.

 

2. Since higher progressions of some abilities, such as Shock -> Force Lighning -> Force Storm cannot be learned until certain levels, at which point they utterly replace the "lower" power, it gives the impression that the new power does more damage for the reasons given in point 1 above and because it strikes more people.

 

Ruleswise, however, Shock, Force Lightning, and Force Storm all deal out the exact same amount of damage. The higher powers are just more effective because they affect more enemies. Any actually increased damage comes from a higher experience level of the character alone.

Using "Game Mechanics" as a source of explanation? Oh Boy?

 

Here is a real example:

 

Sidious's Chain Lightning was more deadly and effective then Dooku's Force Lightning. In AOTC Movie, Yoda blocked Dooku's Force Lightning with his bare hands. But in ROTS movie, when same Yoda faced Sidious, Sidious's Lightning attack blew the damn Light Saber out of Yoda's hand and Yoda could not successfully counter this attack with his bare hands and fall apart. Thus the level of effectiveness is clearly different.

 

And effectiveness of the Force Powers increases in the game due to your better attributes and not due to your levels of experience. The damage of any Force Power remains the same, regardless of how much you "Level-Up".

 

And by using the logic of the game, both Count Dooku and Sidious will do the same amount of damage if they use the same Lightning power. So "Game Mechanics" are not true and cannot be used in the proper debates.

 

And canonically, it depends on how strong your defensive abilities are if you have to successfully counter a Force Attack. Experience is irrelevant in determining the power behind a Force Attack. This is actually more related with your "mastery in the force".

 

Sidious's mastery in the Force was greater then that of Dooku's and that's why his Force attacks were more effective. And Sidious's Lightning attack can't be blocked by a Light Saber as an indication.

 

And Mace's case is different because his Vaapad ability managed to deflect Sidious's attack back at Sidious, which resulted in Sidious getting scarred.

 

Nope - I've been able to hit 20+ Hssiss in the tomb on Korriban with my Exile, so that is not accurate. In fact, it could 30+ Hssiss or beyond - I'm just not sure. But they were many indeed. And this was without cheating.

This problem is related to "Game Mechanics".

 

Even if I were to accept that, that doesn't mean that canonical force powers are limitless. I might accept that they are more powerful canonically, but I won't accept that they can do whatever you or anyone else would prefer them to do simply on the basis that their limits are not established outside the game mechanics. That they are not is no free pass for anyone to claim whatever they want to.

Some Canonical Force Powers are not limitless but some are actually. And Force Lightning in reality (if not successfully blocked), causes an individual to loose his balance and that victim can't do ****.

 

Yes, but we've seen that in the games too. At least, I have.

In game, the characters don't fall far away during gameplay. In movies, a Force Push can send an individual flying far away from the attacker's position.

 

I'm sorry, but you're mistaken about how these powers work in the game. And the only source you have given for the Force Storm power is a reference to how it exists in the games. That gives you no basis for claiming how it might work in "canonical reality".

You should read the text actually. And Novels show that Chain Lightning and Force Storm cover more area and are more effective. The point is that these two advanced forms of Lightning will kill an individual more quickly then a normal Force Lightning.

 

Where did Bandon demonstrate this? And as you have explained so well yourself, not every sith lord has every sith power. And all instances of Drain Knowledge mentioned on Wookieepedia are movie era or later. So for all we know, the power may not even have been known before then.

Try KOTOR 1 again and you will know. He uses "Force Drain" on you frequently.

 

Drain Knowledge and "Force Drain" ability are a same thing in terms of meaning.

 

He was one of the founders of the empire. That would assure him a place. That does not make him one of the most powerful sith lords, however.

And was also powerful. Check his brief as well.

 

Actually, Mandalore also greatly respects the Exile. Indeed, he expresses respect for Bao-Dur's Mass Shadow Generator and the destruction it wrought at Malachor V. It speaks volumes that Mandalore can't even feel any disgust or regret for all those dead Mandalorians who were killed by Bao-Dur's technological terror. Even Bao-Dur shows greater compassion for those dead Mandalorians than any of the Mandalorians do. Yuck!

Did I said that Canderous did not respected "The Exile"? Of-course! he aided Exile for a reason.

 

I didn't realise Revan's page was also locked. But then that just underscores my point.

Right.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

It's a matter of opinion, then. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that Revan served a higher and benevolent goal at the time, and I also agree that he was justified in going to war. As Kreia says, "The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war." But note in which context she says that:

 

Kreia: "You were there at Malachor. Revan's choices were always his own. It was not teaching, or circumstance, or example. It was him. Is that what he was? Or was he always true to himself, no matter what personality he wore?And there is something that the Council may never understand. That perhaps Revan never fell. The difference between a fall and a sacrifice is sometimes difficult, but I feel that Revan understood that difference, more than anyone knew.The galaxy would have fallen if Revan had not gone to war. Perhaps he became the dark lord out of necessity, to prevent a greater evil."

 

The Mandalorians were a great threat to the Republic, and Revan was determined not to let the Republic fall. But in being so determined, I also think that Revan, even before he fell to the dark side on Malachor V, made some compromises. He would go to any length to save the Republic. He was willing to make sacrifices, a trait that Canderous would later praise him for.

 

In short, Revan accepted a "the ends justifies the means"-approach, and however justified he may have been in that regard for the sake of whatever noble and greater purpose, that choice alone will put him at odds with the grander principles of the light side, I think. Revan put his own choices and goals above anything else, and even though those goals may have been benevolent in a greater perspective, it still means that he puts his own desires, plans, and opinions above that of anyone else.

 

And that is Kreia's point - it doesn't matter what mask Revan wears or what others think of him, because it's still Revan in the end. But with that observation, it naturally follows, that Revan then does not follow or even aspire to the greater goals of the jedi order or even the light side itself - to follow your own motivations above all else is not the way of the light side.

 

So Revan compromised. As understandable as that might be under the circumstances, it does not make him a great servant of the light, because Revan was trying to save the Republic, not adhere to the greater will of the light side of the Force. If he had to compromise with his own adherence to the light side, then so be it.

 

That the masters themselves are arrogant and fearful at the same time is immaterial, because Revan is not swayed by their arguments. And just because they may not be true followers of the light themselves, that does not mean that Revan is either.

Very good points indeed and I appreciate your effort.

 

Actually, I shouldn't have said that, because it gives the wrong impression. My apologies. But Malachor V was forbidden to the Mandalorians. Part IX of the TSL Chronicles mentions the following:

 

"Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on."

 

It seems the Mandalorians were forbidden to go there, because they simply realised something dangerous lurked there. Either way, it was forbidden for them to set foot on the planet. This part of the chronicles is more extensive, but I'll get to it later, since it speaks to Revan's corruption on Malachor V.

Well! this was my point as well. As I have said that Mandalorians avoided this planet and it was due to specific reason and that Malachor was a dangerous planet. This is why it is mentioned in Chronicles that Malachor was a sort of "anathema" to Mandalorians.

 

And what "higher canon source" would that be? TSL is the only source EVER explore Malachor V in detail. That could change, but since the planet canonically ceases to exist at the end of TSL, I doubt it, unless it is explored in pre-KotOR2 material.

TSL is still a C-Canon source. Though we can wait and see that if any higher canon source explains about Malachor V in details.

 

then I can't follow you. While I agree with the first statement, I fail to see how it can lead you to reach the conclusion you reach in the second statement. Sorry, but I just don't see it. I see no basis for concluding that Revan feeding on dark side energies on Malachor V is proof that he has great power in the Force.

A matter of opinion here. But since their are many other reasons to suggest that he has great power in the Force, so this case is not of much importance.

 

I suppose the most canonic source on this that we have are the TSL chronicles. The following is from Part IX: Darth Revan Rising:

 

"It is a period of turmoil in the Galaxy. The fierce Mandalorian warrior race begins the MANDALORIAN WAR by viciously and simultaneously attacking three quadrants of Republic space. As the battle rages on, Jedi Master REVAN moves surreptitiously between unknown sectors, scouting for potential strongholds to withstand the attacks. He soon discovers the shadowy Malachor V, a planet listed by Mandalorian scholars as "forbidden" to step foot on. The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side. Revan develops an evil but brilliant plan: Using the dark power of Malachor V, he will seduce an army of Jedi, completely loyal to him alone. He will then turn the planet's evil power against the Mandalorian army in battle, luring them to his stronghold and destroying them completely. A stronghold is immediately constructed."

 

Now, there are several problems here that actually allow us to discard the entire text. For one, it calls Revan a jedi master, and we know that Revan was never a jedi master - he was still a young jedi, when he fell to the dark side. It also says that a stronghold is "immediately constructed" on Malachor V. Since it's fairly obvious, at least to me, that this place is the Trayus Academy, that's not entirely true, given that the academy has been there for centuries if not millennia. After all, the ancient lore of the Sith is what drew Revan's attention in the first place. So it would probably be more accurate to say that the academy was rebuilt and strengthened into a stronghold.

 

Anyway, I'll grant you that Revan's will saved him from death, because that's basically what it says. I don't see that it says something highly unusual about Revan's powers, though. It just says that he was a very strong-willed person, which I have never disagreed with. In fact, I don't recall anyone here saying otherwise. Will and determination are close concepts, and both are defining traits for Revan. They are not, however, related to the Force as such. The Mandalorians were also strong-willed and determined. Probably less so than Revan, but even so. So you don't need to be force-sensitive at all for that to be true.

 

And surviving by will, to me, is just a test for Revan - the dark side won't tolerate weakness. It won't abide Revan's light sided ideals, either, so the only way Revan will be allowed to live is to abandon the light side and demonstrate true potential. Both requires strength of will, and in that sense, it is true that Revan survives by will alone - will to survive by willfully sacrificing his own benevolence.

 

To me, the scene is very much like the scene in "Tales of the Jedi: The Dark Lords of the Sith" (issue 3), when Exar Kun finally abandons the light and embraces the dark side. Nadd's spirit tricks Exar Kun into a valley or gorge, where Nadd unleashes an avalance upon Kun, shattering his body completely. Exar Kun is doomed. The only way he can save his life is to abandon the light and turn to the dark side to save himself. But doing so will cost him his very soul. Both Nadd and Kun know this. Kun even tries to reach out to Master Ood. But it is to no avail. Kun must accept the darkness and reject the light, and it is not a simple choice. Merely saying that he accepts does not do the trick. He must accept it in his heart, and that takes will.

 

To me it was the same for Revan - he could not survive by accepting the dark side while holding onto some of the light. It took will to abandon the light completely, and Revan demonstrated that. Revan is not entirely consumed, however, because he manages to hold onto his own goals. He won't abandon his goal of saving the Republic from the Mandalorians, but then that is not a goal at odds with the dark side as such, and so Revan can hold onto that without being being killed by the dark side.

 

As we see, the goal does become twisted, however, since now Revan wants to conquer and rule the Republic himself, rather than merely save it from the Mandalorians. Ok, true, Revan also discovers the existence of the "true Sith" and so may have rationalized that it was necessary to prepare the Republic for that war too, which meant conquering the Republic itself first. But to me that is still the dark side twisting Revan's goals. If Revan's goal was to protect the Republic by destroying the Mandalorians and then the "true Sith", then why didn't he use the Star Forge to create a fleet that he then used to attack the "true Sith"? The only answer I can think of is that the dark side twisted his goals in this regard also.

Excellent points and I applaud you for your great effort once again.

 

Force Lightning may not be known to all Sith lords, though I'd agree they are likely to. I'll accept that at least pre-KotOR1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, since the One clearly mentions it. However, this is simply Force Storm as seen in the games. The only reference you have made to this power is clearly to the games themselves, in which case its only advantage to Force Lightning is that it strikes in a radius around the user instead of an arc in front of him. However, both powers do exactly the same amount of damage. The link you provided is clearly a reference to the power in the games, and its only illustrations are also from the games. One is of Revan using it, yes, but the second actually has Juhani using it.

Look! "Game Play mechanics" have limited the effectiveness of Force Powers in the game, so it is not canon. In canonical reality, Force powers are much more effective.

 

Force Storm is not limited to a certain radius. It can spread in a large area as "sheer intensity" behind it is far greater. The more energy a Sith Lord puts in it, the more it spreads.

 

In the movies, we have seen that a normal Force Lightning power can hit individuals from many yards away. In "Dooku vs Yoda showdown" in AOTC, we have seen this happen and it is not restricted to a few yards as you mention.

 

Now a normal Force Lightning can canonically hit its intended target from many yards away, then its much more powerful variant "Force Storm" can spread in an entire area.

 

And Force Lightning does not forms an Arc. Only in a "Force Storm", several powerful bolts of Lightning hit their intended targets in a Arc form because they hit their targets from above and not below.

 

And both these powers don't do exactly the same amount of Damage. Even in KOTOR games, these two powers don't do same amout of Damage. Their is an enormous difference in the amounts of energy that is put in a "Force Storm" and that in a "normal Force Lightning". These two powers massively differ from each other in the sheer amount of intensity, damage and target capacity.

 

That being the case, it is clear that Revan's Force Storm power is just the same as we see in the game, where the lightning strike all within a radius of 10 meters of the target enemy (who seems to be whichever enemy is closer).

No it is not. In the narration, we get to know that his attack killed several individuals along with some beasts as well. But in the K1 game, only 3 arcs form from a Force Storm and that is not enough to kill several targets.

 

Force Storm only has a radius of 10 meters in the games, so it would seem obvious to me that your claim is doubtful at best. Your reference to The One only establishes that pre-K1 Darth Revan knew Force Storm, as seen in the games, and used it to kill many of the The One's warriors. Given that my Exile has been able to kill Gerevick and all of his goons with one use of Force Storm as well, this does not turn Revan's power into some super power, since Gerevick and his goons were all powerful thugs as well.

My claim is not doubtful at all. You can't use "Game Mechanics" as a valid reason to describe that how far this power can spread. And things have improved a lot in KOTOR 2 and so the damage of "Force Storm" in it looks more realistic and effective then before. But even in K2, Force Powers are not as effective as they are in Canonical reality.

 

As an example: a simple "Force Push" can send a Jedi or Sith flying many yards away and we have seen this in ROTS movie.

 

And clearly, Revan would need to get within 10 meters or so of Nihilus to use Force Storm at all, whereas Nihilus can devastate a planet and everybody on it from orbit, or at the very least do it from very great distances. Even if we double Revan's range with this power to 20 meters simply on account of him being Revan, it still won't make a difference. And whatever defenses Revan has don't matter either, because, as Kreia puts it at the precise moment when Nihilus uses his power against her in a cutscene, "there are techniques within the Force against which there is no defense."

Their is no reason for Revan to get to 10 meters to use his "Force Storm" on Nihilus. Because in canonical reality a normal Force Lightning power can hit it's intended target from many yards away and we are talking about much more powerful "Force Storm" here.

 

And "Force Storm" does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. Because the sheer amount of energy used in it is far greater. Even in games, they have shown this one distinction clearly.

 

And I have said before that if Nihilus launches his attack first, he wins.

 

Either way - exit Revan. Nihilus wins.

Not if Revan launches his Force attack first. Nihilus was not invincible.

 

As for the other powers you mention, I'll accept that Revan had Dominate Mind, but I don't see that it is an ability to convince many people. It really is just as a stronger version of Affect Mind, which is itself rather common to jedi and sith. Revan is better at it than most, but I don't think it's what made him a great leader. That would mean that he was a good leader on the basis of some force power and not because he could inspire people to dedicate themselves to his cause, which I've always considered one of Revan's better traits. Basically, you could argue that Revan was a demagogue, because he could inspire people to follow his sometimes outrages plans. To me, he is like historical people like Napoleon, Hitler, or Stalin, whom we have no choice but to accept as great leaders, since they could inspire people to do truly despicable acts. If you give Revan unique force powers to explain this, then you do so at costs to his character, I think. And while Revan was a great jedi, I don't see any evidence him having such a power that would affect many people. Indeed, such a power would be Bastila's Battle Meditation, which Revan clearly does not seem to possess, since Bastila's use of it against the Republic in LS ending of KotOR1 is devastating the republic fleet without Revan being able to do anything about it but entering the Star Forge and stopping her.

Well! I can agree that "Dominate Mind" ability of Revan may not be very effective against many individuals as not all are weak minded fools.

 

That Revan, like almost all jedi and sith, has the power of telekinesis I'll accept without explanation.

Good.

 

I'm more skeptical about the thought bomb, because it would beg the explanation of why he then never used it. However, you're right that canon sources establish that Bane learned it from Revan's holocron, and so Revan must have known of it. Or rather, I was highly skeptical until I read the following: "Formed through an ancient ritual requiring the combined will of many powerful Sith Lords, the thought bomb, when triggered, unleashed the pure destructive energy of the dark side.". I think that explains why Revan didn't use this power - he simply never had enough Sith Lords to create the bomb in the first place, making knowledge of it useless to him, but useful to Bane. And in any event, it is then clear that the use of a Thought Bomb is then highly limited, because lots of Sith Lords need to agree to make one, which is rare enough in any event, and it would have to be created for a specific purpose. To Revan alone, this knowledge would be totally useless, and certainly in a one-on-one fight against Nihilus.

I know and this is why I have not used this power in my case.

 

In fact, we could argue that Nihilus is basically an animated Thought Bomb himself, because what it does seems to be exactly what Nihilus does on a grand scale. I mean, a thought-bomb destroys force-sensitives in "the blast radius", which I take to mean not the entire planet. Nihilus, however, can destroy all LIFE on a whole planet in one attack. His powers are clearly far more potent than a mere thought bomb. So I'm not sure it would even work on him.

Perhaps.

 

As for Drain Knowlege, I have no idea why you apply that to Revan. You've provided absolutely no source for Revan having this power, and even though Wookieepedia mentions it, Revan is not mentioned in relation to it any way.

It was a common practise among Sith of his age. Come-on now! even Darth Bandon demonstrated this power, and we are talking about a powerful DLOTS here.

 

What? Malak couldn't have learned anything on his own as a Sith Lord? I think that's a pretty big supposition.

Malak already was very powerful before betraying Revan and he spent most of his time in making Star Forge effective and finding Bastilla, after he took command of the Sith Forces. Revan had trained him in the arts of Sith and Revan was more knowledgeable then Malak.

 

Him being buried there could simply be as a token of respect for founding the Sith Empire. It does not necessarily mean that he was one of the greatest Sith lords ever.

Since very few Sith Lords have enjoyed the privilege to have Tombs built for them after their death as a major sign of respect, so Ajunta was among them and this surely means something or adds to his credibility. Because Sith would not built such Tombs for normal individuals.

 

No, she stated an opinion. One that most sith lords would agree with, btw.

Not necessarily if they knew the actual facts about Ajunta.

 

Clearly I would expect them to say absolutely nothing else, which was my point. The Mandalorians are dedicated exclusively to a very military-fascist "might is right" kind of thinking. They allied with Exar Kun during the Sith War for the same reason - they saw Exar Kun as the strongest warlord. And, of course, they were wrong, since Exar Kun was eventually defeated too. But the Mandalorians don't accept that - they just continue to hold onto their flawed ideals regardless. Given how often they have lost their wars in the KotOR period, you'd think they would amend their position a little, but no - like lemmings they will follow any perceived great leader over a cliff.

 

Conclusion: Demonstrate that you're a great warleader, and you'll have Mandalorian brownoses crawling up your rear. That the Mandalorians aren't even able to dislike Revan for the utter destruction he caused to them just shows that they are completely devoid of any true sense of friendship, camaraderie, or sense of loyalty even to their own people. I truly find their inhuman principles detestable.

Well! Revan was certainly among those who they respected and that was due to the reason that Revan out-smarted them in tactics, planning and intelligence in the War.

 

If this person defeated Mandalorians on a grand scale, he would have to, yes.

Only Revan accomplished this.

 

As much as both I and the owners of Wookieepedia would like for that to be true, I think even the owners would have to disagree with you. Try looking the description of the Exile there

 

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_exile

 

You'll note a box at the top saying: "The shield must be deactivated if any edits are to be attempted." Now why is that? Well, if you click the "discussion" button at the top, you'll get to the background of what it says about the Exile. The top message there says, "THE EXILE IS FEMALE. GET OVER IT." Sorry about the upper case, but that's a direct copy+paste. The problem is that so many people are unwilling to accept that the Exile was declared canonically female (and no - I won't go into that discussion here - it's not a related topic to this at all), that they kept editing the page back to saying the Exile was male. And so the owners of Wookieepedia locked the page from editing. If you have information to add about Revan, go to his page, edit it, save, blam - there it is on Wookieepedia. If you find information about the Thought Bomb lacking, then go to its page, edit and save - there you go - it's on Wookieepedia's page.

 

Now, I'm not saying in any way that Wookieepedia is a bad source of Star Wars in any way. I find it more credible than Wikipedia, and the owners do go to great lengths to keep the information accurate - I have nothing but great respect for them and their hard work. But it lies at the heart of any Wiki, that people writing inaccurate information is a constant and unavoidable risk. Even the owners of Wookieepedia clearly know this.

Revan's profile is also forbidden to be edited in Wookieepedia and since, information in Wookieepedia regarding Star Wars has never been disappointng and the owners of this source try to keep their information as better and canonical as possible, so we can trust this source. Though! no one is perfect indeed.

 

And the owners of wookieepedia accept editing based changes if they don't contradict with canon.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

I recall The One mentioning that, though the timing is excluded. For all we know, Revan could have been electrocuting the Rakata for hours.

 

Given how this is only one vague statement given by someone was in total awe of the Force, I would doubt the credibility.

No! The One indicated that his warriors were killed in a single attack by Revan and several sources also back this. And after this attack happened, The One thought that Revan would be a useful guy and he asked for Revan's help in his fight against the Elders (regarding getting the secrets to enter the Temple). But this assistance never came.

 

And when you meet him again, The One remembers you, explains you about your past encounter with his forces and your promise and then again asks you to assist him in his fight against the Elders. So he was sure and clear about all things.

 

In JA, the Sith Cultists trained in that used the same, standard high-level lightning that Palpatine and Desann used.

That brief is about "Chain Lightning". And people often confuse this power with the "Force Storm".

 

Canonically; Revan and Bane have demonstrated Force Storm. Their would be some others as well but I have not explored so much.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

S_W_LegenD... Have you ever played KOTOR? Did you ever get Force storm? I can't believe some of the things you're claiming. Revan had it, just like any powerful Sith would. The Exile could have it, Kreia could have it, Juhani could have it for crying out loud. And the One's description of Revan's power fits exactly with what it should be. Force storm strikes multiple enemies, simultaneously, from above, and does a lot of damage.

Yes! I have played KOTOR many times. And Revan's demonstration of Force Storm power is mentioned in a narration by an individual (The One), which is part of the KOTOR Story and thus becomes canon and is also mentioned in some sources. And it did struck several enemies from above, and killed them all instantly.

 

And most of the Sith Lords have demonstrated regular Force Lightning and some even have demonstrated "Chain Lightning". But this does not means that they were weak or something. And people often confuse "Chain Lightning" with "Force Storm".

 

A brief on "Chain Lightning":

 

Chain Lightning was a variation of the Force Lightning ability, with the difference being that the lightning was able to strike one person and then move to another or several others. As it was more powerful than the standard lightning, it required a greater amount of discipline and concentration to project and sustain the stream of lightning. Notable users include the lightning-trained Sith Cultist.

 

As an example: Malak actually demonstrated "Chain Lightning" but still his power was devastating.

 

Other then this, we do not have any narrations or proper indications regarding Exile, Kreia or any other character in KOTOR games having this power. In gameplay, you can learn any power but it has nothing to do with canon until a power is specially reserved for your character and Force Storm is not specially reserved for anyone.

 

Also, remember that gameplay is not canon. You can learn anything in it.

 

Nihilus certainly would be able to use Force Storm himself, and there isn't really any evidence that either one would be significantly better at it than the other. If Revan was in range to do it on Nihilus, Nihilus would be in range to do it on Revan. And if they were in range, then Nihilus' drain power would be in range as well, assuming it worked like that. And that's the question.

It's just an assumption from you that Nihilus would know Force Storm as their are no narrations or sources that confirm this.

 

Canonically he knows:

 

- Super Force Drain

- Stasis Power

- Telekinetic Abilities

- Force Push

- Bond knowledge

- Telepathic Communication

 

Assuming that Nihilus' drain power does not work as a direct attack in close combat, Force Storm doesn't provide any advantage one way or the other. Revan would probably win, because he is the superior swordsman and is smarter.

Force Storm canonically does lot more damage then regular Force Lightning. So, do not under-estimate its effectiveness.

 

And I agree that Revan is a superior swordsman and smarter.

 

Assuming Nihilus' drain power DOES work in close combat, the force storm point it moot because Nihilus would be able to use it on Revan right away anyways.

Of-course! if Nihilus launches his attack first then he wins.

[Kreia vs. Revan, Coolness contest?]

My general view:

 

Revan seems more cool to me then kriea. He is strong willed and what he believes in, he tries to achieve it as well.

 

Another thing is that Revan's impressive achievements provide us a good indication about his potential and talents. He is also a master-planner like Kriea and Sidious and he has faith in his judgements.

 

He does not needs to manipulate others for his cause, as others follow him without questions. Because they understand that Revan can be trusted.

 

One thing I liked about Kriea is that their is some depth in her views. She is also noted for training Revan.

 

Attraction:

 

Revan is more attactive then kriea.

 

Power:

 

Revan is more powerful then Kriea.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

You just made my point. I know how Force Storm works. My point was that Revan had regular Force Storm just like any other powerful Sith.

Ok! finally we settle on something, which is good.

 

And very few Sith have canonically demonstrated this power actually, as most has demonstrated regular Force Lightning. Sidious and Bane knew this power though. And Revan's demonstration of this power is part of the (Story) of KOTOR, so it is canon.

 

I never claimed to more about Star Wars than the owners of that source. All I'm saying is that not everything on Wikipedia or Wookieepedia is canon.

Wikipedia is sometimes objectionable in its information but now it has started improving a lot. But Wookieepedia is fully reliable as the sources it's owners use for the information are mostly canon. You can note this in Wookieepedia's "sources" section.

 

If you look a little closer at the article you provided, you will see that it says Revan moved on to gain Dominate Mind. It says nothing about a special Mind Dominance power.

Ok! may be my explanation was little confusing.

 

Uh...you can quit denying it. I know what it means. If you think my eyes aren't open because I do not share the same opinions as you do, you're dead wrong. My eyes are open, I just see things a little differently.

Well since you understand things from a little different perspective then I can understand that some of my explanations took time for you to grab.

 

Ok...so what? The topic of this discussion is Revan vs. Nihilus. We're supposed to be giving reasons as to why we think one or the other would win. It seems that you have been straying away from that. You keep providing me with this handful of powers, some of which were common among Jedi/Sith of that age, that Revan has, which would not give him an advantage over Nihilus.

Both of these Sith Lords are very powerful indeed.

 

But my point is that if Revan makes the first move with his force abilities, then he wins. But if Nihilus launches his attack first then Nihilus wins.

 

Well maybe you should start: give me some reasons why you think Revan would win: not whether you think he has a lot of good Force powers.

I have mentioned my final view above. Revan can hit Nihilus from many yards back with his Force Storm capability and over-power Nihilus. And in this case, Revan will get the upper-hand.

 

Yes actually that's right. I believe more of what Kreia said than I do Bane. That is not bias, that is opinion. I have the right to believe that just as much as you have the right to believe what Bane says and not what Kreia says (that is, if you do).

Your choice but that does not makes my point wrong either.

 

And no hard feelings for you! so Chill!

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Wow! now you suddenly claim to know everything. "Very smart"!

 

First, I have never claimed the One was an idiot, so stop putting words in my mouth. I realized ships crashed there and he took weapons and studied about them, but as I have said in the past, he had never seen the Force in action. And you're wrong about Force Lightning. It hits several enemies at a time, but only in a limited arc in front of you. The only difference between Force Storm and Force Lightning is that Force Sotrm hits all enemies around the attacker and not just in front of him. And btw, I have all my information in my head, it's just that you refuse to listen.

And? Revan actually demonstrated Force Storm because his power hit several Rakatan warriors from above, as The One said that "your power came down from the Sky and slaughtered many of my warriors". He was actually telling that Revan's Force attack hit several of his warriors from above their heads and this explains something. Normal Force Lightning does not hits it's target from above as it goes straight towards the target.

 

Thus my point stands.

 

Wake up call- not everything on Wikipedia is canon material. People can go post whatever they want on there.

It's an unofficial Star Wars source, which mostly relies on Canon material and you can't just openly Edit information in it, as owners of that Source watch these kinds of changes very clearly and they take actions accordingly. It is not like wikipedia actually.

 

And owners of that source certainly know a lot more about Star Wars then you do.

 

My claims do have a base, and that's logical thinking.

So do mine as well (as they are backed by some sources at-least) but you fail to understand my points or logic used behind them.

 

Mind Domination...Pretty much the same thing as Dominate Mind. Obi-Wan had it, as we see in Episode 4. Just because someone is an influential person does not mean they have a highly advanced form of Dominate Mind. Do you think Malak had this Mind Domination. He recruited plenty of Jedi to fight in the Mandalorian War.

He learns this power actually. And in KOTOR, "Dominate Mind" is only reserved for our main character actually. And their is a logical reason behind this, which only Bioware developers can explain.

 

Fair enough. Since I don't know much about Thought Bombs I don't really have much to say about that, but I certainly know that Revan was not the one who discovered this power.

But Revan learned it as well.

 

Yes I know what telekinesis means. You don't have to treat me like a 5 year old.

Know you don't or otherwise you don't have to argue on this part.

 

Uh...that is certainly not unique to Revan. I'm positive that Nihilus knew that too, so no advantage for Revan there.

Of-course, both of them have this ability.

 

My eyes are plenty open. Perhaps you should cut down on the little immature jabs.

No they are not actually and thats why you keep on arguing on pitty matters as well.

 

Where exactly does it say that he has drain knowledge. From your list of powers that Revan supposedly has, it seems that you're just assuming that he has it. Don't jump to conclusions without some hard evidence to back it up.

"Logic" and "Reasoning" certainly lacks in you. This power was commonly used by many Sith in KOTOR era, as even normal Dark Jedi demonstrated this power. So stop acting like someone, who always needs spoon-feeding.

 

Ah...another little immature jab. Read it again and you'll see that my point was that not all people who learn a lot from somewhere suddenly have Drain Knowledge. I know only Sith use it, but that doesn't mean that some might have the capability but they just don't use it. And also, Drain Knowledge would really have no impact on a 1 on 1 fight with Nihilus.

I am not discussing fight with Nihilus now and check your high-lighted line here. Some people know it but they don't use it most often. Revan became a Sith after landing on Malachor and he would learn this power as well as it was a common practise among Sith of his age.

 

I'll say it again, Darth Bane's opinion is not canonical material. Now if the author of that book stated that what Bane learned surpassed the teachings of the Sith Academy on Lorriban, then I would believe it. But, it says, "in his opinion" (referring to Bane), Revan's teachings surpassed the Korriban Academy. Until there is some big announcement that says Darth Bane knows everything, then I won't believe that what he thinks is canon.

Wow! some of you can trust Kreia's opinions but some of you cannot trust Darth Bane's opinion. What kind of Bias is this?

 

Every bit of detail in POD Novel is canon including personal opinions of Bane. The writer tried to tell you this information in a realistic manner and thus he made it sound like that it was not just writer's opinion but also the opinion of the main character in his Novel. Get this now?

 

When I get around to it, I'll play it again.

Good enough!

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

I know he had Force Lightning. There is no power called Force Lightning Storm. Do you not understand? The One exaggerated greatly, he had never seen the Force in action before. I'm gunna use an example provided by

someone before me. Say I went back in time about 2,000 years and I take a flamethrower with me. The people see it in action and they think I have some kind special gift where I can take a canon and create fire to shoot out of it. Obviously we know that's not true, since that's impossible. The One greatly exaggerated.

 

Oh! boy!

 

The One was not as much of an idiot or primitive as you try to protray him here. Many Ships crashed on Lehon planet and many survivors were looted from their valuables (including their weapons) by Black Rakatans, so The One was getting familiar with the high-tech inhabitants of the galaxy and their weapons as well. He was also known to kill a Mandalorian and we already know that Mandalorians were skilled warriors and used ranged weaponry as well in fights, and this shows that The One was not an ignorant individual.

 

And a normal Force Lightning power does not kills several enemies in a single strike because it hits one target at a time. The One clearly said that "many" of his warriors and beasts were killed by a single Force attack from Revan and this power is known to us as "Force Lightning (Storm)". This power strikes its targets from above and hits several targets and not strikes its targets from below in a straight manner like a normal Force Lightning does. So get this information in your head now.

 

here is a brief on Force Storm (Lightning):

 

Force Storm was an extremely powerful dark side Force power and represented the pinnacle of the Force's power to conjure electricity, proving more devastating even than the lethal Force lightning. The user raised his palm upward and through the Force created an explosion of electricity directed at all foes in the vicinity. It was used by both the Sith and Jedi with dark side tendencies during the Jedi Civil War. Unlike the weaker Force lightning, Force Storm was not limited to attacking enemies in one direction, as it affected all foes within a certain radius from the user.

 

Link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Storm_%28lightning%29

 

This power has also been demonstrated by "Darth Bane" as well.

 

So stop making baseless claims.

 

Also, read more about The One here: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_One

 

Show me somewhere that canon material says he has something called Mind Domination. And don't tell me that you think the fact of how many Jedi he recruited for the war explains that

Check this Link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Affect_Mind

 

Revan knew this ability.

 

I've never read the Bane book and don't know what a thought bomb is so...yea.

A brief on Thought Bomb:

 

The Thought Bomb was a powerful and destructive application of the Dark Side of the Force which targeted all Force-sensitive individuals and vaporized clothing, flesh, bone, and even stone within the radius of the weapon's blast.

 

Link: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Thought_Bomb

 

What Telekinetic abilities did he show there? Another thing I'd like to see some material for.

Do you even understand that what Telekinesis means?

 

Here is a brief on TK:

 

Telekinesis, abbreviated TK, was a neutral ability that most Jedi had. With it, they could lift objects according to their concentration and move them, hovering the items in any direction.

 

Most Jedi can lift up objects and throw or move them. And Revan demonstrates this ability during his training session in Dantooine.

 

You surely need to open your eyes now.

 

So anyone who learns a lot from somewhere has Drain Knowledge? That would mean that nearly all Jedi have Drain Knowledge. Nearly all Sith have Drain Knowledge. Nearly all people who take a creative arts class have Drain Knowledge. Need I go on?

Drain knowledge was a power that was surely practised by many powerful Sith Lords of old times. And Jedi don't use this power so your arguement is baseless again. And a person who would explore and learn many Sith secrets in various worlds will surely learn this ability as well because it was a common power. Even Malak demonstrated this ability. You need to use some "Common Sense" as well.

 

Uh...show me in there where I said the power of the Jedi had anything to do with corruption. You obviously didn't actually take the time to try to understand it. We all know that DS energies corrupt. DS energies do not kill. Revan's life was never in danger. Just because he gave in to the DS does not mean he was doing it to protect his life. He did it because he had no choice. As Kreia says, "It corrupts all life that walks upon it's surface." She did not say, it kills all life that walks upon it's surface that does not give in to the DS.

Ok! point taken.

 

Of course he had some knowledghe of defensive abilities, but that certainly does not mean he could absorb DS powers. And your point about how his sheer will saved him from death on Malachor is invalid. All Sith can feed on the power of the DS. How do you think they have any DS abilities at all. In the temple on Dxun, you can "feed" on the DS energies there, and don't tell me that's game mechanics because it's not. There is a difference between game mechanics and the story line.

Sith don't feed on DS power, and they are actually "consumed" by it. And a "Force Sensitive" individual is actually trained in the ways of the Sith before that individual becomes a Sith. Revan's body actually fed on DS energies on Malachor V and thus he demonstrated an ability to absorb DS power. And since Exile can feed on DS energies as well, then this information further clarifies my point.

 

And about Kreia. She was corrupted on the surface of Malachor, but was her life ever in any danger? No, nor was anyone else's. She was simply corrupted by the DS, she never "absorbed" any DS energies, she simply gave in- just as Revan did. And provide me with a source for your statment about how the more lightsided a person is, the more vulnerable they are to DS energies.

She never fed on DS energies so she could not get this capability. She was only corrupted by DS energies.

 

A jedi's sensitivity is determined by his/her affiliation with the Force. Also, a Jedi who is very Light Sided, will always fear the Dark Side and will be more sensitive to such an exposure.

 

I don't care what novel it was in: it's still Darth Bane's opinion. And who said Bane lied? It was his opinion that what Revan taught him surpassed the teachings of the Sith Academy on Korriban. Just because I disagree does not mean either one of us has lied, it just means that I disagree. And I do not disagree with the fact that what Revan taught him surpassed the Academy, just that those were not necessarily his teachings. He learned those techniques from the Trayus Academy, then shared those things with Bane.

So it is your fault that if you disagree with a canon information. And canon materials always have high credibility.

 

And of-course, Revan learned many things from Malachor. But not all of his teachings were based on what he learned from Malachor. His personal beliefs were also involved in his teachings to Bane.

 

I don't remember him actually speaking those words, but maybe he did- I don't know. But if he did, please provide me with a link.

Play KOTOR again and visit the Tomb of Ajunta Pall and meet his spirit and you will know this, when you will interrogate him.

 

QFE

 

I think Revan was a quality Sith Lord/Jedi, but i think too many of the fanboy's around here over rate him, hes he destroyed Malak and all those Sith, but he would have lost to Nihiulus, personally I think the Exile would beat him in a one on one fight but that Revan was the greater leader. If you like Revan would be the Supreme Comander and the Exile the Navy Seals/SAS.

 

Revan had no unique force storm lightning ability, and force lightning is not as good at killing people as a lightsaber. Eg, Yoda can block force lightning, but he would need a lightsaber to stop a lightsaber. I also believe that Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan, Plalpatine/Sidious/The Emporer, Vader/Anakin are all more powerful than Revan and I also believe all the above would loose in a fight against Nihilus because the Exile was the only 'Wound' in the force that Nihilus couldnt feed off

Read my above points before making baseless conclusions. Because my points are backed by some sources.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Like who? So what anyway? It hasn't been confirmed as canon as far as I can tell. Prove that it has been.

Some in this forum and as well in other forums believe that "Sion vs Nihilus" Video is canon. Check "Nihilus vs Sion" thread as a hint.

 

Also I am not sure that whether "Sion vs Nihilus" video is canon or not and I don't care much about it. But it explains to us a few things.

 

What Jediphile said.

I have high-lighted some of the abilites of Revan and add to them Malak's abilities as well (since Revan trained Malak in the Sith Arts) and you will get an idea that Revan was indeed a very powerful Force User as well.

 

See! I used some logic and put some pieces of Revan's achievements together to show a picture of what Revan would know. And still we don't know about the full extent of his power as his information is not even complete yet.

 

You do realise how much of a Revan fan boy you sound like when you say crap like 'Revan's mastery of the force was so great' right? I agree with Jediphile. All this tells suggests is that the ancient Sith were more powerful than Revan, so your proof is somewhat self defeating. EagerWeasel makes a good point too. Since when did Darth Bane's opinion become a canonical source?

Revan always wanted to learn more then expected as even his masters remarked on this. And he visited various worlds to seek more knowledge and POD Novel has already provided us a hint that Revan's knowledge surpassed the entirety of Sith knowledge found in Korriban Planet (as Bane reveals this) after learning from Revan's holocron. And I must remind you that Korriban Planet also cantained Tombs of powerful ancient Sith Lords with their secrets preserved in them and Revan explored all those Tombs to discover their secrets. So all this shows that he learned a lot about Sith Knowledge and such great knowledge will also enhance his mastery in the force. Now you get the picture?

 

And Bane was not a fool and he had no reason to lie regarding Revan because Revan's teachings impressed him and Revan even taught Bane the secret of "Thought Bomb", which proved to be very useful to Bane.

 

Did they? This is the first I've heard of it. Care to prove it? Besides, Revan's companions did follow him/her on the Star Forge for a while, up until the fight with Bastila or the three Dark Jedi Masters. You have to remember from that point onwards, their were no more Sith to fight, apart from Malak.

Ok! tell me that what roles can "Mission Vao" and "T3-M4" can perform in such an extensive battle? Even "Zaalbar" is a very vulnerable target in such battles. And Revan will not risk his entire party in such engagements.

 

And no canonical sources have mentioned that all of his party members followed him and if any had then you can mention it over here.

 

Also, check this information: (taken from a detailed Revan's profile)

 

"Aboard the Star Forge, Revan almost single-handedly blew through Malak's defences composed of the Star Forge's droid, Sith soliders, and Dark Jedi, displaying his strong affinity to the Force and her/his mastery of lightsaber combat. He faced off against Bastila once again. Although she was able to renew her strength with the power of the Forge, Revan continued to stay strong no matter how much Bastila renewed her vigor. After winning the fight, he convinced her to turn back to the light side. Bastila used her Battle Meditation to aid the Republic, turning the tide of the ensuing battle. Finally, Revan again confronted his former friend and apprentice, Malak, in an epic lightsaber duel, while the Republic fleet, no longer hindered by Bastila's Battle Meditation, continued its bombardment of the Star Forge. Malak continually attempted suck energy from the Jedi prisoners he held in stasis to renew his strength, but this did not stop Revan, as he released many of these Jedi to allow them to become one with the Force. At last, with no Jedi to help renew his strength, Malak was cut down. Before his friend's death, Revan apologized for starting him down the dark path although reminded him that he continued down it willingly. Malak realized that he had no one to blame for his fate other than himself. Thus Darth Malak, Dark Lord of the Sith, died, his life ending in darkness and regret, and the Star Forge was destroyed. In light of his actions, Revan became known as The Prodigal Knight in the history of the Jedi."

 

And even Malak gave credit to Revan for destroying most of his forces stationed in Star Forge, as he mentioned this in during the battle on Star Forge.

 

Also, you need to distinguish the difference between gameplay mechanics and the plot. The gameplay mechanics in K1 and K2 only allowed you to take two companions at the maximum.

Gameplay Mechanics are limitations added to your actions along with some feats, powers and the way you perform your actions in a game.

 

Examples are:

 

- Concept of "Leveling Up".

- Gender Selection.

- Feats. (A character learns things through training and does not gains feats actually to enhance his abilities.)

- A few non canon Force Moves like "Force Immunity". Technically "Force Immunity" is related to "Force Deflect". But in games, the developers should have provided "Force Deflect" power, which is a canonical Force Defensive ability.

- Damage of Force Moves.

- Low damage of Weapons.

- Party Members joining you and this too being influenced by Gender of main character. (in case of K2)

- Less Force Moves. (in case of K1)

- The Limitations in choosing number of Companions.

- Your actions in the game.

 

Actually the story or plot of KOTOR games are canon and Videos and Narrations in these games are also canon.

 

Storywise, all of Revan's companions would of fought with him/her on the Star Forge, since none of them had any reason to stay on the Ebon Hawk, because half a dozen Jedi Knights were there to protect the ships so the Sith didn't cut off their escape route.

Like I have hinted above, some of his companions will become liabilities for him and would make things more complicated. So their is a good reason to state that not all of his companions followed him in to the Star Forge as not all were warriors and some would get killed in such a battle.

 

And Sith started engaging those Jedi as soon as they landed on Star Forge, so we can't say that more will not come.

 

Do you seriously think that three people would have fought the entire Sith army that was present on the Star Forge? You're looking at things from a gameplay perspective. Storywise, Revan and his/her companions would have had many Jedi Knights and Republic troops helping them fight the Sith on the Star Forge. Logic would tell you that.

A team of Jedi Knights did went in their to stop Bastilla from using her Battle Meditation but many of them got killed.

 

And remember that Malak clearly indicated that it was due to Revan's intervention that his forces were failing.

 

Have you played K2? If you did, you'd realise that Sion, Kreia, the Exile and Darth Nihilus all possessed unique abilities that rivaled Revan's. Their is a concept in Star Wars that if you are more powerful than your opponent, then you will defeat them in an open, 'one on one' battle.

Each K2 character was unique in his own way but Revan's abilities still places him ahead of them.

 

Let me high-light some:

 

- Master Swordsman. (A Prodigal Knight)

 

Revan was the best known duelist in entire Jedi Order in his age. He has proved his superb swordsmanship by killing many powerful individuals.

 

Some of his notable victims were:

 

A) Mandalore - The Ultimate (Leader of the Mandalorian forces in KOTOR era. And he was very powerful.)

B) Yusanis (Greatest Echani warrior ever known)

C) Darth Malak (A very powerful Sith Lord and also a master swordsman)

D) Calo Nord (The most feared Bounty Hunter in his age)

 

And Revan killed many others, especially on Star Forge.

 

- Excellent Precognition ability.

 

Revan's precognition capability was put to ultimate test when he faced the greatest Echani warrior ever known. And Revan slaughtered him.

 

- Great mastery in the Force.

 

Revan explored many worlds in quest for greater power. Some of his Force moves are:

 

A) Force Lightning (Any powerful Sith Lord knows this)

B) Force Storm - Lightning (Demonstrated in Lehon)

C) Mind Control

D) Thought Bomb (Taught to Bane)

E) Telekinetic Abilities (Demonstrated in Lehon and Dantooine)

F) Drain Knowledge (A person who learned a lot from Malachor V will know this as well)

 

Then he also taught Malak in Sith Arts and he knows Malak's moves as well. Which also involves:

 

G) Saber Throw

H) Stasis Power

I) Force Push and Whirlwind

J) Force Choke and Kill

K) Defensive Abilities (Malak could counter many Force Moves as well)

 

Also, Revan learned more powers that have not been revealed yet but POD Novel hints that he knew some more deadly Sith Powers apart from "Thought Bomb".

 

- Very intelligent and Smart.

 

Revan was known for making smart decisions and he proved his great intelligence in the Mandalorian War.

 

- Ability to influence many people.

 

Revan always inspired people to join his cause. But in-case if some did not agree with him then he knew how to convince them with his Mind Control abilities.

 

- Amazing Achievements.

 

A) He led Republic Forces to victory against the Mandalorian Forces.

B) He created a Vast and powerful Sith Empire as a DLOTS.

C) His actions once again led Republic Forces to victory against Malak's Sith Empire.

 

You don't think that the Exile, Kreia, Nihilus and Sion could beat Revan in a one on one fight? I certainly think they could. In fact, I think they all would defeat Revan in combat, but that's just my opinion.

See the above information.

 

I'm not saying that Revan wasn't powerful. In his/her timeline, Revan was powerful, but 'looking at the big picture' which means in the entire Star Wars timeline, I don't see why Revan would be considered as one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith ever. No way.

His achievements speak volumes about his power. And I have high-lighted many of his abilities now.

 

Darth Sidious was canonically the most powerful Sith Lord of all time.

I fully agree and mentioned this before.

 

Well fair enough, that's your opinion, you're entitled to it. I don't think that Revan is among the most powerful characters in the entire Star Wars franchise, but you do. Meh, as Jediphile said, why should we have to agree all the time?

Then its your choice and I can't do much about this.

 

Yes, you do actually. How does this prove that Revan was a brilliant strategist and a military genius? This is just a biast opinion of one man. As Jediphile and EagerWeasel have pointed out, of course Canderous is going to speak highly of Revan. Duh.

Read his details in his profiles and you will know.

 

Apart from Revan's 'cleaning house' tactic, tell me what else Revan did that was fascinating? I'm not saying he/she isn't a brilliant strategist and I understand why people would assume that he/she was, I'm just pointing out that I haven't seen any proof of his/her 'genius' tactics.

Under Revan's command, Republic Forces started employing "Ambush and Retreat" tactics. They also fought in a very organized manner and laid Traps in their paths and led Mandalorians to those traps in many occasions.

 

Canderous explains all this in a very good manner regarding the changes Revan implemented in tactics of Republic Forces to out-smart Mandalorians.

 

There's no way in hell that you've made it clear that Revan was a military genius. This is a weak argument.

Do some search and you will know most of the answers. Spoon Feeding is not always a good idea.

 

It was Revan and Malak who inspired the renegade Jedi to join them in the war and reject the decision of Jedi Council.

No! Revan made the decision to help Republic first and Malak followed him, since he was his friend and started helping Revan in getting more followers.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Listen this time. The mere essence of the Dark Side does not kill. It corrupts, which is exactly what happened to Revan. That fact would actually prove that he is not as strong as you claim, because if he could resist DS energies, then why couldn't he resist being corrupted? Revan's life was never endangered: only his spirit.

OK! you have a point here but remember that power of a Jedi has nothing to do with corruption. Kreia despite having great wisdom and knowledge also got corrupted by DS energies in Malachor.

 

Ok, when, besides in the game, does Revan resist Malak's DS Force attacks. Now you yourself said that "gameplay mechanics" don't apply to this. So please explain to me how this applies to how powerful Revan is, and other "gameplay mechanics" don't. Revan is not any more "resistant" to DS related powers than any other powerful Force user of that day, and he certainly cannot absorb DS powers.

You are trying to tell me that Revan survived in that battle without having defensive abilities to block Force attacks by Malak? Remember that if you can't defend against Force attacks of your adversary who will use them on you then you will never win. Yoda could absorb and counter Force attacks by Sidious and thats why he survived in his fight against Sidious.

 

And information in the provided Link indicates that Revan's body started feeding on DS energies in Malachor and this shows that he could absorb DS powers.

 

Revan learned many things from the Trayus Academy on Malachor V. As others before me have said, all that means is that the teachings of the Trayus Academy surpass the teachings of the Sith Academy on Korriban. Also, if you didn't notice, that says "in his opinion." Since when is Darth Bane's opinion a canonical source?

Darth Bane's opinion is mentioned in POD Novel and it becomes canon by default. And Bane had no valid reason to lie because Revan's teachings impressed him. And Revan also taught Bane the deadly ritual of "Thought Bomb", which proved to be very useful to Bane.

 

Uh...provide me with some material that says Revan said the Sith of his age were far more powerful than before?

When Revan met Ajunta Pall (who is also a powerful and famous ancient Sith Lord), Ajunta asked Revan about the conditions of Sith in his age and Revan told him that Sith of his age are far more powerful.

 

Did you actually read what he said? Canderous wasn't protecting his life because Revan was holding a gun to his head. He was protecting the honor of the Mandalorians. They always talk about how great and powerful they are, and yet they were defeated. To say anything less than Revan was an incredible genius would put a bad name on them. If they said he was weak, then that would obviously prove that they weren't quite as powerful as they claim.

He was actually praising Revan and he even said that defeat of Mandalorians did not concerned him. And Canderous clearly mentioned that he praised Revan so much because Revan gave Mandalorians an exceptional challenge they desired for so many years.

 

And Revan was not weak because a weak person would never be able to defeat the powerful leader of Mandalorians who was "Mandalore - The Ultimate" in a single combat. So Canderous had no valid reason to say that Revan was weak.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

For the Exile, yes, but not the Exile's companions. Now, I know that you're going to argue that those scenes were cut and so not canon, but not all of them - the Mira vs. Hanharr fight is still in there, and Mira shows no sign of corruption by the dark side. None.

Then blame Obsidian for that and not me. Because we already have got various indications that Malachor V corrupts those who dare walk on its surface.

 

Have I claimed otherwise? This is the first I hear of it... Why doesn't anyone ever tell me these things?

We already have indications that Malachor V can corrupt any individual. So if Obsidian have shown otherwise then it is their fault for such contradictions.

 

In this case "sensitive" could be interpreted as "weak". As for how much of a servant to the light Revan was at this point, I think that is highly debatable. Certainly the jedi masters would not agree with you - they had already cast Revan out of the order for his defiance at this point. Scarcely an indication of his lofty status with the light, to be sure.

I did not made that information by myself and being sensitive does not translates in to word "weak" because he was not weak. And being cast out of Jedi Order does not makes any individual Evil by default. He was fighting to save The Republic from its doom, so it was a noble act.

 

Avoided capturing?!? It's sacred ground to them! I think that might have something to do with it...

Sacred ground to them how? Did they worshipped the ancients?

 

If that is the case, then how can you conclude the following...

It depends that how sensitive an individual is to such an exposure. Details in games can often contradict with details provided by other sources. And if that information is from a higher canon source then it is more accurate.

 

If there are no hard and fast rules about how Malachor V affects people, then I don't understand how you can conclude that Revan survived Malachor only by his strong will and his great power in the Force.

He would be more sensitive to such an exposure and I also mentioned the line "due to unknown reasons". And his body started feeding on those DS energies present in Malachor V, so it would have something to do with his great power in the Force. And why don't you read those lines properly and explain to me that what it actually mean't?

 

And why would Malachor V be lethal to him? Kreia says nothing about that in her quote. On the contrary, she says that it corrupts irresistably, which is how the dark side works. True, Kreia says that it feeds on death, but that's not the same as killing someone.

Reasons are unknown but he survived by giving in to the Dark Side and feeding on those DS energies.

 

That's pure game mechanics. There is no basis for claiming that Revan has unique powers on that ground that I can see - you could put Jolee, Juhani, or Bastila in there, and it would have been just the same, depending on how you built them as they progressed through the levels. And Revan doesn't always resist. I've bit the dust in that fight, when I didn't get Force Resistance/Immunity up fast enough and failed a save against Malak's paralyzing attacks. There is nothing special about Revan there that I have experienced.

I have never used any "Game Mechanics" in my argument, since I never used the word "Force Immunity". The only known canon defenses are "Force Deflect" and "Absorb Capability". Revan would have known one of these or probably both to survive such an encounter. Because you can't fight and defeat a powerful Sith Lord unless you can defend against his Force attacks, which that Sith Lord will use on you in any case.

 

And Jolee Bindo and Juhani have never faced Malak and we don't know that canonically what defensive abilities they have, so your assumption regarding them are wrong and actually based on "Game Mechanics".

 

I don't see that Revan had any particular powers. Sure, he was strong in the Force, but that doesn't give him any special abilities as such. Revan was great because he was not merely strong in the Force but also smart, resourceful, and determined. Not because the author poured uber-powers all over him. In that case I would hate Revan.

Revan's powers are not fully known yet but we know that he was a powerful force user and some of his powers are already known;

 

- Force Lightning (Any powerful Sith Lord knows this)

- Force Lightning Storm (Demonstrated in Lehon)

- Mind Domination (Power to convince many)

- Thought Bomb (Taught to Bane)

- Telekinetic Abilities (Demonstrated in Lehon)

- Drain Knowledge (A person who learned a lot from Malachor V will know this as well)

 

Then he trained Malak in Sith Arts as well, so Force Moves shown by Malak were also known to him. Also he knew some Defensive moves as well.

 

So, you can't say that his abilities are fully unknown, if you pay some attention to his achievements.

 

Actually, I don't get that impression at all from Ajunta Pall. He speaks of how "we" turned from our masters, suggesting that he was one of the original dark jedi cast out of the jedi order after the Hundred Years War. In short, he was the losing side that was kicked out by the Jedi. That doesn't exactly put him among the greatest great lords of the Sith Empire, such as Ragnos or Sadow and Kressh, who could probably have conquered the Republic, if only they didn't quarrel so much amongst themselves. Besides, any Sith would call Pall a pathetic weakling and disgrace to the Sith for turning back to the light at Revan's suggestion. Even Kreia says as much in TSL.

He said that he turned to Dark Side and he actually killed his master and thats why he left the Jedi Order because their was no valid reason for him to stay with the Jedi. Also, Ajunta Pall was one of the founding leaders of the old Sith during the time of the Old Sith Empire centered on Korriban, shortly after the "Hundred-Year Darkness". And he was among the most famous Ancient Sith Lords, as his Tomb was present their in Korriban as a sign of respect.

 

But after his death, his spirit remained to haunt his Tomb for many centuries and he started having doubts about Sith Philosophies. And Revan convinced him to turn to Light as their was no glory in the Dark. And after Ajunta's spirit turned to Light, it finally rested in peace and no longer haunted his tomb.

 

So kreia mis-judged this event.

 

Nonsense. Please reread. What I say is that the high opinion the Mandalorians have of themselves prevents them from seeing things any other way. That's not Revan's responsibility in any event, nor does it say that the Mandalorians are afraid of anything. It just says that they are so arrogant and full of themselves that this is the only way they can perceive Revan. How you get that to be Revan threatening Canderous or Canderous being afraid is completely beyond me.

Your arguement over Canderous's remarks on Revan is entirely baseless. Because what else would you expect from him to say about Revan? Of-course he will say high about Revan because Revan defeated the Mandalorian forces and ended their threat to the Republic for once and all. But Canderous also said that Revan gave the mandalorians an exceptional challenge that they desired for so many years and thats why he respected Revan so much. And Canderous also clearly said that it did not matters to him that his forces were defeated in the war with The Republic, but he appreciated the challenge given to his forces by Revan because it was he who turned the tide in that war.

 

Now he won't say the samething to any other person or would he?

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

I think you're reading an awful lot into that ability. Yes, Revan survived by absorbing ds powers, but how much of a feat is that, really? Revan was overcome by the dark side, when he went to Malachor V, yet in the end of TSL, the Exile and all his companions can go to Malachor V just fine, even though they were all LS, which is the canonical way of things. Lots of people seem to have gone to Malachor V without dying from it. It certainly seems Kreia did too, and though she was also overcome by the dark side, she didn't need to "absorb dark side powers" just to survive.

Gameplay is not canon actually and thus you don't feel a damn thing when you enter Malachor V. But since Exile was a wound in the force, so she was also possibly less sensitive to exposure to DS energies.

 

And Kriea too got corrupted by the influence of the Dark Side power in Malachor V, despite her great wisdom and she was not the true servant of the Light and thus was less sensitive to exposure to DS power. She actually believed in Gray philosophies.

 

Here is more information: Her crusade ended on the dark world of Malachor V. As she descended to the lowest levels of the world, the extreme caress of dark side energies encompassed the frail Gray Jedi. From the descent of Jedi Master Kreia into the abyss arose Darth Traya, Dark Lord of Betrayal.

 

So Malachor's influence was enough to turn her in to a Sith Lord.

 

And Revan was much more sensitive to DS power then Kriea and Exile, because he was a true servant of the Light and was very strong in the force and probably due to some more unknown reasons. Even the Mandalorians were very sensitive to such DS energies and thats why they avoided capturing the Malachor V planet.

 

So their is no hard and fast rule that how sensitive an individual can be to DS energies in that planet.

Besides, what does it mean to "absorb dark side powers" anyway? I remember doing that with some characters on Dxun, when we went to Freedon Nadd's tomb and found some dark side energies. If that is what Revan needed to do just to survive, then I don't think that's very impressive. Rather, I think it's a little pathetic. Besides, the dark side doesn't kill people - it corrupts them. And they certainly did that with Revan, if we assume that he was even trying to resist the dark side.

Revan was a true servant of the Light and when he landed on a world fueled by Dark Side power, he was over-whelmed by the Dark Side energies and resisted his doom only through his strong will. So he saved himself by "feeding on" or absorbing those DS energies that posed a threat to him. But he eventually got corrupted by them as well, since Dark Side power corrupts.

 

Finally, what Revan can do on Malachor V cannot be attributed to another place - Malachor is a pretty wierd place to begin with.

 

Kreia: "It corrupts all that walks on its surface, drowns them in the power of the dark side - it corrupts all life. And it feeds on death."

And this shows that Malachor is a place that can influence anyone.

 

You can't say that about most places, which leaves us little basis for claiming that Revan absorbing dark side powers there means that he can do it anywhere else.

But how he manages to defend against Malak's DS power based attacks, who was a powerful DS force user as well, and despite the truth that Malak's powers were further enhanced by Star Forge? The only logical answer is that he naturally became resistant to DS related power attacks, after his exposure to DS energies in Malachor V. And this means that he could absorb DS powers.

 

No, it's a supposition. For it to be wrong, it must be proven that Revan is more powerful, and we really don't know that either. You think so, and I tend to agree that Revan was probably one of the more potent force-users in his day, but we actually don't know that beyond speculation from Kreia, who is speaking about her favorite student and so is not exactly an objective source.

Canonical sources have given us sufficient hints about Revan's power, so his great power should not be questioned. And the accomplishments of a person, clearly speak about the power of that individual as well.

 

And Kreia was pretty much accurate in describing the characters she knew, so her point stands.

 

All that really says is that the knowledge Revan gained from the Trayus Academy was better than that of Korriban. That says more about the quality of what Revan learned at the Trayus Academy than it does about Revan himself. In fact, all it tells us about Revan is that he learned a lot there, which has never been in dispute anyway.

I agree.

 

Revan learned secrets that had long been lost to the Sith. Does that speak more to the abilities of Revan or the ancient Sith? All it tells me is that the ancient Sith were far more powerful, and that Revan gained power from trying to understand what arcane knowledge had not been lost to posterity. That doesn't exactly tell me that Revan was particularly powerful to begin with. Actually, it suggests just the opposite to me.

When you learn some secrets, then you can use them as well. And it was only a speculation that ancient sith were far more powerful. Because when Revan met the spirit of "Ajunta Pall" (who is also among the most powerful ancient Sith Lords), he told Ajunta Pall clearly that Sith of his age are far more powerful then before. And this explains a lot as Revan knew what he was saying because he had already studied about Ancient Sith in great details.

 

And Revan was already a powerful Jedi Warrior and considered a hero, before he visited Malachor V.

 

The obvious counter-argument to that is that Canderous has little choice but to say that about Revan, since Revan beat the Mandalorians into a pulp. And since the Mandalorians think of themselves as great warriors and strategists, they must consider the person who defeated them as an even greater warrior and strategist, because to do otherwise would require that they reconsider their own high opinion of themselves. And none of the Mandalorians demonstrate any such introspection or reevaluation during either game that I've noticed. Quite the contrary - they are all warmongering, arrogant pigs with a "might is right" attitude the lot of them!

You make it sound like that Revan was holding a Gun on Canderous head, when Canderous said these words. Dude! Canderous never feared anyone and he was always looking for real challenges and he admired Revan a lot because Revan's achievements were clear to him.

 

He did not said those lines out of fear of being killed. So your assumption is lame.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

The Sion vs. Nihilus scene is cut content though, so it doesn't officially count.

Some people say that it is canon material.

 

Tell me, how could Revan resist Nihilus' drain power in a 'one-on-one' situation?

It depends that if Revan gets caught in Nihilus's Force Drain in a "one-on-one" scenario or not, because it is not like that Nihilus will always make the first move. And Revan's resistance to DS powers is very good because he absorbs DS power. When he landed on Malachor V, the DS energies in that planet were too dangerous to him but he survived by sheer force of his will and he fed on the DS Power to stay alive. Also, Malak knew Force Drain and many other DS Force moves but his powers failed on Revan and that is because Revan absorbs DS powers. The point is that Revan's resistance will be much better then expected and I also believe that Nihilus's Force Drain is a power to be feared.

 

What's your point? I never said that Revan has been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power.

But you were stating that many others are more powerful then Revan and this is canonically not confirmed and true. So your supposition is wrong.

 

Yes I know. I forgot that I already had Palpatine on my list, when I included Darth Sidious. Besides, I never said they were the same person. It was just a mistake.

OK! I understand.

 

How do you know that? Whether Revan was more powerful than any of those individuals depends entirely upon our own point of view.

From Darth Bane POD Novel: Darth Bane—recently proclaimed a Dark Lord himself—traveled to Lehon in search of power enough to topple the existing Sith regime, the Brotherhood of Darkness. Once there, he discovered Revan's holocron and from it received training and instruction that, in his opinion, surpassed the entirety of Korriban Academy's archives.

 

Revan's mastery in force was so great that it surpassed the entirety of Sith knowledge found in a Sith Planet called "Korriban" (and this planet was already rich with Sith secrets).

 

And the reason behind this is that Revan has explored the worlds of Malachor V and Korriban in quest for great knowledge in Ancient Sith Arts and he learned a huge number of Sith secrets from these worlds.

 

You do realise the difference between gameplay and the plot, right? As if Revan would have fought all those Sith on the Star Forge alone.

Canonically, Revan's companions followed him on Star Forge for not a long time as Revan faced Bastilla and Malak and their elite legions alone. And not all of his companions followed him as some had to stay in the ship to protect it from possible ambushes.

 

Since when didn't they? Besides, I said that I think they are more powerful, not that they actually are. There's a difference.

They have never shown accomplishments that rival Revan's. Their is a concept that "the more powerful you are, the more you will accomplish".

 

Narration by Yuthura Ban (regarding Revan): "I hear he was a very powerful man. Very charismatic."

 

Take an example of Darth Sidious: he was also very powerful, charismatic and a brilliant strategist as well (like Darth Revan) and he accomplished a lot.

Overrated how? As far as I can tell, Revan is the only character who the fan boys claim is a perfect, ultra cool mega genius force god who would beat anyone in combat.

Not all think like this. And I never think like this but I believe that he is among the most powerful characters in Star Wars Saga and canonical sources have already provided us hints.

 

Perhaps my personal bias against Revan clouds my judgement, but blind to the truth? Prove that Revan was a 'great military genius'. Good leader? Yes. Powerful force user? Yes. Great military genius? Perhaps, but tell me something strategically brilliant that Revan did in the Mandalorian Wars.

Narration by Canderous Ordo (regarding Revan): "His strategies and tactics defeated the best of us. Even Mandalore himself was taken aback by the ferocity of his attacks, the tenacity of his defenses and and the subtlety of his plans."

 

Need I say more?

 

So? That could just mean that Revan was powerful, not a military genius. If Malak won the Jedi Civil War, would that make him a military genius? Winning a war doesn't make you a military genius.

Revan was very powerful and a military genius as well.

 

Another narration by Canderous Ordo: "You, Revan, are the single greatest warrior of this age, and any battle we fight will bring me honor."

 

And I have already mentioned his narration (regarding Revan), which makes it clear that Revan was a military genius.

Who's to say they still wouldn't have gone to war? Remember, Malak was just as keen as what Revan was to fight the Mandalorians.

It was Revan who inspired them to join him in the war and reject the decision of Jedi Council.

 

So? How does that make Revan a military genius?

I have provided a hint above.

 

Think whatever you like. If anybody's arguments are flawed around here, it's yours.

Not necessarily.

 

A lot of people refers to Revan than Nihilus.

 

BTW, welcome to LF, Obsidianian S_W_LeGenD.

Thanks for welcoming me!

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

In terms of casting it, probably not. I've already provided evidence against that argument.

 

Calling people blind to the truth and similar remarks aren't supposed to be said here, by the way.

He needs to know that where his enemy is positioned in his ship (in case of close encounters). It is not that he will launch his DRAIN attack and that power will itself discover the position of his enemy and kill him/her.

 

As an example, Sion was very close to Nihilus when he used his Drain power on him.

 

And I apologize, if I had been rude to anyone but some views expressed by The Architect in his above post are beyond the truth and very frustrating.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Well, it looks like I don't have to argue why Revan wouldn't beat Nihilus, since others are doing that quite well. Regardless of whether Nihilus can kill force users by just standing there or not, Revan would still be weakened just getting near Nihilus, because look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

 

They were all half dead, all weakened. Assuming that Revan is more powerful than all those Sith, he/she would be weakened even more by just getting near Nihilus, possibly even killed.

And how can you say that he will be even more weakened and that too due to the reason that he is far more powerful then those average Sith on Ravager? Did Sion got so much weakened by just standing close to Nihilus that he was no longer capable enough to launch an attack on him? The point is that your logic is heavily flawed.

 

The only way Revan could win would be to attack from afar, but it would have to be from a fair distance, since as Emperor Devon said, Nihilus' attack works from long distances, since he wiped out a whole planet at once.

And I have already pointed out that how Revan can attack from a large distance. Also, Nihilus needs to know the position of an enemy to launch his Drain attack on that enemy in close encounters. Draining a planet is different from Draining an individual in a one-on-one situation.

 

Even then, the Sith in K2 operate on stealth and guile. Revan would have to be careful not to be detected by the Sith, and he/she would have to find them in the first place, but since these Sith are drawn to powerful Jedi, it would be hard, almost impossible for Revan to do.

If you are using "Ravager" as the fighting place then Nihilus does have advantage.

 

Yes, Revan was above average in the KotOR era. But in the Star Wars timeline as a whole, Revan was just average. There are many Jedi and Sith who were greater and more powerful than Revan IMO.

And since when Revan have been compared to others in canonical sources in terms of power?

 

Also, Revan had accomplished far more then many other Sith Lords and only Sidious rivalled his accomplishments - 4000 years later. And their are only a few Jedi and Sith, who were more powerful then Revan. You surely need to open your eyes now.

 

Just to name a few, Marka Ragnos, Yoda, Palpatine, Luke, Vader/Anakin, Exar Kun, Freedon Nadd, Tulak Hord, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kinobi and Darth Sidious are all more powerful than Revan.

Darth Sidious and Palpatine are same individuals.

 

And only Palpatine and Luke are more powerful then Revan in your list. The rest are close and thats it.

 

Heck, I don't even think that Revan was the most powerful force user in the KotOR era. I think the Exile, Kreia, Sion and Nihilus were all more powerful than Revan.

Yeah! Revan was sleeping in the Star Forge actually and that entire army of Sith was killed by his (not so powerful) companions.

 

And since when did Exile, kreia and Sion became more powerful then Revan?

 

Nihilus fails because the Exile is a wound in the force. Nihilus probably does have to do more than just stand there to win against an opponent, but look at those Sith on the Ravager bridge.

Those Sith were normal individuals and were his slaves.

 

Yes, everyone is connected to the force. If the Exile didn't stop Nihilus, then all life would have been wiped out. You see, the galaxy is one big food platter for Nihilus. He was going for the big prizes, the main course first, which are the Jedi, since they have a stronger connection to the force than your average joe. He's drawn to those who are strong in the force.

Yeah! since GL does not gives much importance to EU so any amount of BS can be thrown in it.

 

Star Wars canon sources confirm Darth Sidious to be the most powerful Sith Lord and by your logic, Nihilus will WTF-Pawn him and shoud be crowned as the most powerful Sith Lord in Star Wars Saga.

 

You're right. I shouldn't take it out on Revan, but it still won't change the fact that I don't like Revan that much and think he/she is overrated. There are plenty of characters that I like more than that idiot.

Nopes! Ragnos and Vader are most over-rated individuals.

 

Also, I haven't seen any evidence of Revan's great military strategy. While Revan could very well have been a 'great military genius', I haven't seen any proof of it, so I can't say whether he/she was/wasn't a 'great military genius'.

Because you are blind to the truth and your personal bias against Revan clouds your judgement regarding him.

 

Also, the Republic would have won the Mandalorian Wars, with or without Revan. If Revan didn't go to war, then Malak and the Exile would have led the charge.

Yeah! and thats why Mandalorians said that it was Revan who turned the tide in the war and they were badly defeated.

 

And Malak and Exile only followed Revan.

 

You have to remember that the Republic had many more troops, supplies, ships and the Jedi on their side, so it's not as if Revan didn't have any help and did everything himself/herself.

And they were getting pawned badly by Mandalorian forces in every battle until Revan arrived on the scene and led the Republic forces to victory.

 

Almost all of your arguements are flawed.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

First off, get the facts straight. Force Lightning and Force Storm are different powers. There is no "Force Lightning Storm." And I was using the example of how the PC does it in the game to tell you exactly how Force Storm works.

My points are pretty much straight but you fail to understand them. I know that their is a force power, which is called as "Force Storm" and it was demonstrated by Darth Sidious.

 

But their is an another force power, which is known as Force Lightning (Storm) and both Bane and Revan have demonstrated this power.

 

And Revan is not unique in his ability to use Force Storm. As Jediphile said, the Exile can use it to a far greater extent than Revan. This power that you say he has cannot spread over hundreds of miles, more like about 20 feet.

Once again you are using "Game Mechanics", in your argument which is not good. Force Powers in KOTOR II are more improved then in KOTOR Game. But this is due to "Game Mechanics" and it has nothing to do with canonical reality. And we don't have proper "narrations" regarding Exile demonstrating this ability so it is not canon.

 

Force Lightning Storm can spread to far greater distances, as Bane demonstrated in POD Novel. So Revan can do that as well.

 

Wookies are pretty primitive. Bowcasters and blades is what they use (at least on KotOR that's what they use). And besides, The One was a good fighter, and easily the best out of any other Black Rakata.

Wookiees are still deadly opponents and their weapons are very effective as we have seen in ROTS movie as well.

 

And of-course, The One was a good fighter and the leader of a Rakatan faction and was also not an idiot and he knew everything because many ships crashed in his planet and he looted the survivors of their valuables (including weapons). So he learned a lot about advanced technology through them.

 

And again, given that we've never seen anyone being actually killed by force lightning in the movies (I don't count Windu, who fell to his death), that doesn't sound very compelling to me. Lightsabers kill people all over the place. Force Lightning and Force Storms don't. Indeed, Yoda was able to resist the use of Force Lightning in both Episodes II and III.

Mace's vaapad was protecting him from being slaughtered by normal Force Lightning attack. His vaapad allows him to deflect the DS power related attack back to the attacker and that is why Sidious's face got scarred. And still Mace was having great difficulty in countering that Lightning attack.

 

And Yoda is a very powerful Jedi. He can absord Force Shock and Force Lightning but it is still deadly to him as well. We have noticed this in ROTS movie in Sidious vs Yoda show down. And Sidious's Lightning attack was so powerful that it blew the Light Saber out from the Yoda's hand in that fight.

 

Also in SW: ROJ, we all know very well that what would happen to Luke by the Lightning attack from Emperor, if Vader had not interrupted.

 

And Force Lightning Storm was never demonstrated in movies. It has been demonstrated and mentioned in EU Novels, Games and Stories only.

 

So you are dead wrong that Force Lightning power and Force Storm power cannot kill a Jedi or Sith. And Force Storms are far more deadly then normal Force Powers.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

He had never seen it in action and had no idea how it was used. So if many of his men were killed by a blast of Force Storm, then of course he would say that it was incredibly powerful and he had never seen anything like it.

And that power was pretty effective against large number of enemies, and we are talking about using it on a single individual.

 

Yep...so lets put that into the situation of the topic of this discussion. Revan was also a Sith Lord, he knew some defensive abilities. Nihilus' Force Drain was a very powerful attack which Revan would also not be able to resist.

Revan can absord DS power. He demonstrated this ability on Malachor V and survived. He feeds on DS energies. I have provided a source above that has mentioned these details.

 

And I agree that Nihilus Force Drain was a very powerful attack and anyone getting caught in it will be in trouble. But Revan aborbs Dark Side powers and his resistance will be much stronger then expected.

 

Also, he can use his "Force Lightning Storm" ability and can eliminate Nihilus from many yards back.

 

And that's a fact.I wasn't saying that they were weak: I was just sayin that they were much smaller and inferior to the large rancor we see on ROTJ, which was the example you used.

Big or small, they were deadly.

 

And I used a Mod in which that huge Rancor (in Taris) could be engaged in a Korriban Cave and I (as a Jedi) killed that huge beast with just 5 hits. So, it shows that being "large in size" does not always helps.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

Uh...you have played KotOR before haven't you. Ever had the power Force Storm? That hits plenty of enemies and it does (in a manner of speaking) come down from the sky. The PC holds his hand up, lighting shoots up and then splits up to attack all enemies around you. And, by previous experiences of using that power, it's pretty darn powerful.

Force Lightning Storm forms a gigantic ark of large number of deadly Lightning strikes, so thats why those strikes hit the targets from above.

 

And Force Powers in the games are immensly under-powered by Game Mechanics. Canonically, Force Powers are much more effective then that. And "Game Mechanics" should not be used in proper debates.

 

I've never heard of this Super Force Lighting that Revan apparently has (by what you say that is).[sarcasm]Killed a Mandalorian?! Wow that's unbelievable![/sarcasm]

 

C'mon...wookiees can kill Mandalorians. And the logical thing to do, would be to just accept that Revan is not all-powerful.

It is a powerful "Force Lightning Storm" ability which he (Revan) demonstrated in Lehon planet.

 

And Wookiees are ferocious warriors and they can use all kinds of advanced weapons in fights, so they can kill a mandalorian easily.

 

And The One, who mainly relies on melee weapons in a fight did a notable job by killing such a foe who was far more deadly then him.

[Revan VS. Nihilus... who would win]

As I said, the Black Rakata had never seen the Force. They were amazed at whta they saw and most likely exaggerate. The Ancients who built the Star Forge were the only ones of their species to have any knowledge of the Force.

The One knows about the Force actually but he uses the term "Magical Power" to describe it.

 

He saw many of his warriors and beasts killed by Revan in a single attack. So he has no reason to exaggerate in such a case. He was not a "Gizka" after all.

 

I'm geussing that Nihilus has a bit more resistance to the Force than some Rakata who knew nothing about it. And as Nihilus can drain the Force, it would seem to me that he can also absorb it, since eating up Force is what increases his power.

Of course, a Sith Lord does knows some defensive abilities but no one can deflect or survive such a gigantic Force Attack.

 

I assume that you have played KotOR before so you know that the Rancor that are on the Unknown World are not the same type of Rancor that we see on ROTJ (or in the Taris Sewers for that matter). Those rancor are much weaker than the larger rancor in the movie.

Those Beasts were still large enough to eat people and could cause massive damage with a single hit of their large claws. And they were also trained to fight in battles.

 

So they were not that weak as you try to make them look like.