Sadbrush

Saw it three times. Bottom line, I enjoyed it. But I've been going through a lot lately with this film, trying to process my feelings and reconcile my expectations, and of course the ending. It's not a perfect film by any means (and the de-aging technique is certainly a bit wonky and distracting), but I think it manages to honor the legacy. I was never a Crystal Skull hater (I just read Jason's review, and Jesus Christ, he pummeled that film into oblivion), but it obviously felt very different from the first three (and even the games). Now that Kingdom is no longer the "final" Indy film, I'm able to put it into better perspective and just treat it as another one of his many adventures (including the Young Indy series, which also felt tonally very different compared to the films). Having experienced them all chronologically in the past month (Young Indy, Temple, Raiders, Crusade, Crusade: The Game, Fate of Atlantis, Kingdom and Dial), I kind of feel like I've accompanied this character through his entire lifespan, and so I'm feeling a bit lost and empty at the moment. Not unlike how I felt at the end of Return of Monkey Island (which also took me a damn long time to accept it was "over"). There are not that many franchises left that I care about these days, so it kind of feels like I'm in a state of mourning.

Just a couple years back, they proposed doing a "reboot" with Margot Robbie as the lead. I think that IP is much more universally recognizable and lucrative in conjunction with the theme parks. I can't see Disney with two competing pirate movie franchises, unless they somehow make a resurgence and replace the current superhero trend. Yeah, it kind of makes me think of that recent Willow Disney+ reboot. Which wasn't a success with the legacy fans and failed to engage the younger ones. I think this new Lucasfilm doesn't really know what the hell they're doing and will probably stick with what works for them for the foreseeable future: which is Star Wars, as far as the eye can see. See, this is exactly the kind of thing I wish they would have made, back when the iron was still "hot." It might have just been a one-off film (like lots of animated films of the '90s), but it would have been a cult classic for sure. And probably lured a generation of kids towards the point-and-click genre. Which might have revitalized and fueled it for awhile longer, etc. I understand wanting Monkey Island to remain a niche thing that only adventure gamers know about, but there are other ways it could have thrived, too. Just like Sam & Max, which had comic books and a TV show and a shitload of games over the years, but still hasn't burned its goodwill towards fans (in my opinion). Let's face it, Monkey Island was never going to be the next Indiana Jones or Star Wars cash cow. And while we're at it, remember the attempt to make Maniac Mansion into a sitcom in the '90s? It actually made it even more weird and niche, somehow. And we still only have two of those games in existence, which haven't lost their classic status.

So long as Pirates of the Caribbean exists, they will never go "all in" on Monkey Island.

To be fair, expectations were monumentally high when Ron was involved. We wanted everything to be perfect after a 30-year hiatus. While I think most of us recognize this as a fun, anomalous, one-off idea in an existing pirate game IP that was already heavily influenced by Monkey Island, so our expectations are sufficiently managed. Also, I feel like I'm in the minority on this, but I really want this to be canon with the rest of the games, especially if it takes place smack dab in the middle of Curse and Escape, where Ron wasn't involved at all. Particularly with the original (has it been confirmed yet?) voice cast involved, I'd love for this to fit in and expand the existing lore of the series (which doesn't retcon Return at all).

Wow, I wasn't expecting another Monkey Island entry so soon. That's awesome that Sea of Thieves finally embraced its inspiration, they had already included a well-known MI Easter egg since before. I suspected as much, but I'm sad to hear Ron wasn't asked to consult in any way (once again). Especially since it seems like the developers hold the original games in such high regard. Ah well. At least Dominic and friends appear to be back. This might be enough to get me to buy an Xbox...

Just finished the video. It wasn't as revelatory as I had hoped, although it was nice to hear him speaking openly (mostly) about certain aspects for a change. Here are some disparate thoughts I had while watching. We finally got confirmation that Boybrush was an idea invented for this new game and not the original intention in MI2. I'm curious about the "hidden" things that Ron says people haven't found yet. I wonder how on top of the discussion he is (has he browsed these forums?). He also seemed hesitant to confirm whether certain endings hadn't been found yet, although he did eventually confirm that. Interesting that Elaine and Guybrush were originally meant to be split up at the beginning. I get that the idea was abandoned early on, although it was still my first impression from playing it. I still have so many questions about the early intentions between Guybrush and Elaine and the ending of MI2. Was LeChuck based on any character in Guybrush's real life? Was Stan always the proprietor of the park in SoMI? I'm very interested in how ideas have changed and evolved over the course of all three games. I still don't understand why Ron says that the secret is that it was an amusement park and he's been waiting to tell us that for 30 years. And yet, the ending of MI2 made that very clear. Interesting that he has one true "canon" ending in mind. We can definitely eliminate the drowning death and "I don't believe" endings, I think. It honestly wouldn't take anything away for me either way. The scrapbook note wouldn't have worked in the chest, although it's an interesting idea. I really like that it was an extra feature that came after I thought I had already finished the game. If I had read it in-game, it definitely would have taken me out of it and changed my initial interpretation. I'm glad Ron agrees it was a melancholic ending, although obviously that's a bit different from a developer point of view who's worked on this for 30+ years. As he says, he feels like he's Guybrush sitting on the bench with his thoughts at the end. A standalone Elaine game would be great, but it definitely wouldn't be as silly as Guybrush's adventures. There would be a much more logical and pragmatic progression to puzzles, but I still think it would work. Sounds like it's his next "dream" project anyway.

I had no idea that this was even a thing, but that's amazing.

The more I think about it, the more unsatisfying another entry would feel at this point, especially coming from a different team. It would be the jump from MI2 to Curse all over again, ignoring all the mythology and setting it firmly in the fantasy of the pirate world. But that world has come crumbling down at the end of this and it's hard not to constantly be aware of that now. Maybe the best strategy would be to make a Boybrush-centric game (perhaps the search for his dad after he went missing from his latest adventure?), even though I hate those passing-of-the-torch stories. Also, I wouldn't want Boybrush to be an exact carbon copy of his dad; maybe he has other fantasies and aspirations. I don't know, I just don't want the next MI game to be a hard reboot that ignores all the previous entries or anything like that. But then again, it feels too soon to consider all of this because I'm still too close to the ending.

That's a cool take. She definitely seems to be omnipresent, which almost felt like a deus ex machina at times. I was also curious about that tumble he takes off the cliff, which seems unsurvivable (same concept as holding his breath, I guess) and wondered if there was some twist in store. The other thing is that it really seems like they were split up or separated for a time. There's like a gulf between them, even though they say all the right words to each other. I really wish we knew the devs intentions with this; it's one of those things that feels almost purposeful, but I don't know what the right interpretation is. Some have likened it to a "therapist" role, which takes a very specific stance, but I'm wondering if they were on a break for some time and are basically treading on eggshells.

Yeah, this was pretty much my experience playing through the first time. I kind of wish we could have seen all the "behind the scenes" locations of Mêlée Island and visited those cardboard versions for the last time. I really felt Boybrush's disappointment when the story comes to a sudden halt after all that massive buildup. I'm not upset about it anymore, but I don't think the impact of the ending would have been hurt by giving us a few more moments to linger in that world. Man, it will be weird playing through Curse after getting this ending. I honestly wonder how it will register while seeing that alternate continuation of MI2. I guess you can experience it through Boybrush's point of view and pretend you're being told one of Guybrush's stories for the first time.

Were escape rooms a thing back in 1990? That's another idea that I feel has changed from the original intention of this world and was probably only added on later.

Man, what a missed opportunity! It would have been so satisfying to finally fix that clock after all this time, especially after Guybrush makes that comment about it being broken. Maybe those dark runes graffiti could have also come into play since it's in the same area. I keep meaning to ask about that. Who told Corina to store the safe there and not allow anyone to move it? It has to be Stan, since it contains the gaudy chest we see at the end. But I was really hoping for more exposition to come out of this revelation, and why it becomes so convoluted with the five keys and everything. Also, Widey Bones: Feels like there is so much we have yet to learn about her, but then she turns out to be another cardboard cut-out. Dang, the more I think about it, the more I can pick apart holes.

I just want to say, I really love this interpretation. It's the "Night at the Museum" theory. Would be cool if everything came to life after dark after Stan closed up shop and handed Guybrush the keys. Yeah, this is the reason I struggled so long with the ending. I've written a lot about my initial disappointment with the last 5 minutes of the game (it really did feel like a traditional adventure up until that point), and the lack of conclusive answers provided by the devs (which I felt had been promised). It's been buried now, but after pondering about it for some time, I'm quite happy with my own headcanon version and I've been able to make everything "fit" to my own satisfaction (with a few additional tweaks here and there). Personally, I didn't really need a final LeChuck confrontation, although I was surprised at how abrupt the ending came. I do like the fact that we follow LeChuck through that final door with the anticipation of a climactic battle, and then our perspective changes completely (similar to the ending of MI2). It is sad though that LeChuck does not appear to be a real person within the park and is only the source of Guybrush's wild imagination, which does take the wind out of my sails. I still maintain that he was partially inspired by his adopted brother Chuckie (and bears a striking resemblance), who possibly vied for Elaine's affections at some point, but it's not the same. Anyway, those 10 variations on the ending really helped me to move on, since it gives you loads of new ways to interpret what happened and also gives some indication of where things "stand" with all the characters at the end of the game. My OCD and desire to know everything gradually lifted over the past week (has it only been a week?), and now I can accept all the evidence as presented.

Random question, but if Guybrush and Elaine had a daughter, do you think they would name her Girlbrush or Ladybrush? (Or possibly, Laneybrush?)

Yeah, especially the fact that she's in costume and seems to stay in character as "governor" would be a way of explaining how they met in the park and why he started falling for her. I still think she might be a higher-up in the park, since she seems to get around the island area pretty frequently, but still takes her "job" very seriously. You think Guybrush as a kid came across a Zoltar machine at the carnival and wished he were a Pirate?

This is a big bone of contention with me, but definitely interesting to think about. Perhaps it's best that it's never explained for real and left up to interpretation. I don't think Ron was thinking about Guybrush and Elaine having kids back in those days (they were never supposed to be a couple), so I don't think it necessarily would have had that framing element. I think it probably would have been closer to NinjaChamp's hypothesis: I hadn't considered this, but the original framework of 3a (in 1992) might have been some version of this that is told from young Guybrush's point of view. Of course, on a different level of interpretation, one could say that Boybrush represents Guybrush, and he's been talking to his inner child this whole time. (goosebumps) If Ron took all those comments into consideration, that might be the reason why this game seems easier than all the others. He was catering more to the player experience than the frustrating designs of those original puzzles (which had me reaching for the physical hint book). Personally, I didn't mind the fact that Return was simplified. For one, it made me feel smarter. Secondly, I don't have the same patience I did as a kid. With only a limited play window, you want to make as much headway as possible. This game felt like it was constantly moving, there were plenty of things to explore and it was easy to keep a tally of what objectives you had to do. The thing that maybe made it too streamlined was the fact that it tells you which objects you can't combine with each other. But I think that was mostly a shortcut for them to not have to write new lines of dialogue for every failed item combination (which honestly, does get a little redundant: variations on "Nope, you can't do that."). My only complaint about the gameplay is that it feels like there were still puzzles that went unsolved. There are certain items that didn't get to be used and locations that didn't feel fully explored. Areas like the locksmith shop, Wally's shop, the museum, the fish shop, et al, have so many hotspots you can interact with, but don't seem to come into play at all. Again, I think this all had more to do with a limited team and budget and not enough time to populate the world with characters and puzzles, like they did in the earlier games.

Yeah, I was very curious by Elaine's tease at the end of the game (the lost map to the treasure of Mire Island). It seems to suggest that these adventures keep going on (or live on in our imaginations). If they're really worried about "ruining" the impact of Return's ending, they could always be made as prequels with younger Guybrush (or even Boybrush himself). The only thing I dread is this series getting rebooted entirely (unless it's as a film franchise...which could work).

I think it was just in the original version of the game. Seems to have been replaced by dialogue at some point. I pulled this up from here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=286271652

The LeChuck rivalry seems so personal that it has to be based on a real person, right? Maybe he and Chuck were really both vying for Elaine's love and developed a personal rivalry there? If I want to take this to an even more uncomfortable place (and recalling the wedding veil in LeChuck's office), I'd even suggest that Elaine had a relationship with Chuck at some point and Chuckie is actually Guybrush's stepchild. 😬

I like your post about the "turning off lights" trope. I didn't quite understand the significance of shutting down the park as I was first playing. Now as I keep thinking about it, and remembering his "Oh no...not yet" realization that it's all over, it makes it all the more devastating. But damn, I had no idea he sung The Mary Tyler Moore Show theme song in MI2 (I had to verify it myself). Very interesting way of bringing it all together. (Probably unintentional, but I like making all the pieces fit.) Shit, something clicked for me as I was reading this. Maybe the reason Guybrush and Elaine's relationship seems so "passionless" compared to earlier adventures is because we're seeing this entire game through Boybrush's eyes, as Guybrush tells him the story. (Also explains why Boybrush is our initial playable character and even fleshes out the "pop-up storybook"-like art style, as seen through a child's eyes.) That might also be why he imagines Chuckie and Dee as versions of LeChuck and Lila in the story (and perhaps accounts for some other personality differences from previous games). I know we all have our personal headcanon for what happens, but I'm starting to piece together a more concrete view of what Ron may have originally intended back in the '90s. Basically, The Secret of Monkey Island is that it's actually a theme park (something we always suspected from that locked employee door in the back alley). Guybrush is indeed a flooring inspector getting lost in these worlds and his own imagination. Elaine is possibly the (slightly) older woman he meets there in a higher position of authority ("governor") who initially rebuffs him. LeChuck is apparently not based on any real life character, but is actually a realistic animatronic display (this is the hardest pill for me to swallow). Stan is just the capitalist, money-hungry jerk in charge of the place (always slinging his wares). And all the characters he meets in this town are either real life denizens of the park (employees and visitors) and/or literal cardboard cutout characters. MI2's ending basically reveals this for us—and some version of this was originally meant as the ending to MI1 before it got nixed. The whole element of Chuckie's "lightning eyes" and Elaine waiting by the pit were essentially added later as a way to continue the franchise, if someone so wished. I have to look at Return as a literal return to this world, and not directly continuing the events of MI2. The kids are re-enacting Guybrush's telling of events 30 years later at the beginning of this game, and in no way is meant to be the framing device that Ron intended back in the '90s (it's something that probably came later with age, wisdom and begrudgingly accepting the other games as canon). Many things in Return are rehashing what made the originals so great, but it takes on a slightly new form (as seen through Boybrush's eyes). But what's clear is that it takes place many years later, with a father essentially telling his kid grand, tall tales of his many "adventures" at these theme parks (with some details changed either due to unreliable memory or embellishment on his end). At the end, he reflects on his life as a flooring inspector—which initially seems mundane and boring—but his "riches" in life come in the form of his wife and his kid. Kind of a cheesy ending, but I get it. Reflectively looking back on all of it, over the past 30 years, it's very touching. The things I'm still trying to reconcile are where we meet Guybrush at the beginning of MI1. If we are to assume it takes place in modern times (1990) and given his youthful appearance, I'd say he's 18 or so? I don't know what kind of certification it takes to be a flooring inspector (what the hell is a flooring inspector anyway?). And at the end of MI2, he's a literal kid (8-9?) which doesn't quite make much sense if that was intended as the defacto ending. Unless it's just meant as a memory of him playing as a kid with his adopted family, which led to his lifetime of dreaming about being a pirate and eventually working in the amusement park business. And there's also the matter of LeChuck, who could just be based on his older brother Chuckie, who was a bit of a jerk and a bully. Which also begs the question: Who is Chuckie in Return? Perhaps his nephew? (Chuckie Jr.?) Sheesh, it took a few days (and restless nights of Monkey Island dreams) for me to reach a place of quiet acceptance about this ending, but I think I'm just about there. One thing is for certain: this wouldn't bother me so much if I hadn't been thinking about this for 25 or so years. It's weird to finally put this longstanding mystery to rest after all this time. I guess I'm finally in the same place as Guybrush at the end of the game; sitting on a bench, quietly reflecting on my thoughts and a lifetime of memories playing these games.

I hope that wasn't the case. Who calls their mom "plunder bunny"? You first had to align the stones to the symbols and numbers displayed above the stairway arches, then follow the instructions by rotating 3 right, 2 left and 4 from the date.

Yes, I think our criticism comes from a place of love. We adore these games and so we hold them to a higher standard. I agree that the game feels less populated than other MI games (I didn't play with the writer's cut on, maybe that will enhance it). I don't know if it's because it was made by a smaller group of people (probably not smaller than the first game), they ran out of money, or maybe it got rushed out and lacked an additional layer of polish. Something about the characterizations of Elaine, Stan and LeChuck also didn't sit right with me, as if they were being subdued in some way. I thought it would all come together in the end and be explained away by whatever the "twist" was, but instead it rings hollow on deeper examination. This was always Guybrush's story from the beginning, but we grew to love all these characters along the way. Even someone as two-dimensional as Murray (or one-dimensional when you flatten him) deserved a better send-off here. All these elements are kind of abandoned in the aftermath when it's all left up to our interpretation. It becomes a sort of Winnie the Pooh syndrome, where it's revealed that we were Christopher Robin all along (or maybe Calvin & Hobbes is the better analogy). But I don't really know anymore. Maybe when enough time has passed and the dust is settled, I can return to this series with a fresh set of eyes (after I've forgotten most of the puzzles) and enjoy it without the burden of expectation. That's my hope, anyway.

No, I missed the point of the series because they never bothered explaining it. I was just being glib. 😛

I really wanted it to work for me. I sat through the credits that first time just thinking about that final moment and what it meant. Again, I think it's the sudden shift of tone and the fact that it ended so suddenly that caught me by surprise. We needed a bit more dialogue and time to process what we had just seen before reaching the end of that sequence. Especially considering this seems intended as the final entry in the series. Some of these characters deserved better. But yeah, Monkey Island and Lost are pretty similar in that they've got that J.J. Abrams "mystery box" analogy behind them. I noticed someone else in the thread compared it to the third season of Twin Peaks, which also seems apt (a series that I found challenging, but ultimately fulfilling). I mentioned this earlier, but my dissatisfaction with the ending likely also stems from the fact that I haven't reached that point of contentment in my life that Guybrush finds himself in. If I were sharing this game with my spouse or my kid, I'd wager my overall experience would be entirely different. I don't wish to belabor this, but this is kind of how I feel after playing RtMI. 😉

Oh, hi Dom. Big fan of your voice work. I appreciate your reply and breaking down your interpretation for me. I find myself flip-flopping between my feelings of the game. I really loved the humor and puzzles and everything leading up to those final 5 minutes of the story. At the end, I feel like we were given a lot of information at once and not enough time to process it. For me, I was still waiting for the other shoe to drop. Then it just ended and I had to reassess everything up to that point. I've considered a lot of points of view in this thread, which I can respect, but personally I find myself reaching. I wasn't looking for a big climactic fight between Guybrush and LeChuck. I just wanted that sense of closure that puts a big red bow on the entire series. The kind of revelation that allows me to replay the first two games and get something completely different out of it. I know that was a lot to expect from a computer game, but somehow I convinced myself that Ron was hiding an ace up his sleeve all this years. But instead it managed to rehash most of the things we already knew, just given a new context (and perspective, through Boybrush's eyes). My favorite TV show is Lost, so I'm no stranger to ambiguity or not getting all my questions answered. It's a series I still defend because it managed to feel satisfying without revealing every single mystery. It's that old adage that if you "wow" them at the end, you can forgive any of the flaws that came before. I realize a lot of it is about the "journey, not the destination," but I think they have equal standing. When I think of my nostalgia-filled memories of the first two games, it mostly comes down to the endings and how I felt about the whole experience. That beautiful graphic of Guybrush and Elaine watching LeChuck explode into fireworks. Or that carnival setting that comes out of left field and ends with a giant question mark. Only time will tell if I view this game and its ending in the same light. I've had a couple of days to sit on it and there are things I really like about it (the fact that there are so many variations and interpretations you can derive from it). I definitely don't take for granted how much of a gift it is that Ron and Dave got to make the game they wanted after all this time. Monkey Island will always be one of my favorite series regardless, but the fact that I still have so many reservations about the ending (and have devoted so many words to it) leaves me feeling less than satisfied. I'm certainly glad other people are getting more enjoyment out of it, but I can't help how I feel.