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Doctor Shaft

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  1. The flamethrower having a set duration is a good idea. As it stands now, it's really just a "Sith Lightning-Lite" gadget that toggles on and off at will. If you made that stall saber swings, that really would be a "win button". Set duration would limit that, but the other problem would be multiple flamethrowers. One guy commits. Then another. Then another. Jedi is stalled if you work together enough. Every move needs a counter. If flamethrower were a counter to stalling Jedi's from attacking, there needs to be a risk attached to that as well. I found it interesting in the film that Jango didn't use his flamethrower more often. Perhaps the current flamethrower has to large a cone of influence and duration. Perhaps if it were more of a weapon that did high damage the longer you stayed in the cone, but also had a slightly thinner cone so that you could quickly evade, or at least only take minimal damage initially? Or, perhaps the weapon should have not only a duration, but a set time before it activates. Example: 1.) Activate flamethrower. Like sentry gun, needs 1 to 2 seconds of heat up time. 2.) Flamethrower blasts out. Opponent has about half a second or so to get out of cone before damage multiplies and fries target. 3.) 1.5 second duration. Then flamethrower "runs out of fuel". 4.) Cool down for 5 seconds or so. Another thing to consider is making it force susceptible. In the Clone Wars cartoon, Obi-Wan was faced with that freakish bounty hunter who used both a needle-gun and a flamethrower. With enough prep time, Obi-Wan was able to redirect the flame, and cause the needles to fail. Maybe the flame could even be shoved back at the user at times, causing them to bake instantly? Those are my thoughts. Make the flamethrower far more effective, but apply both an appropriate amount of time to anticipate the move (and also force the user to think about when to use it), and attach enough risk that it can't simply be used all the time, hence turning it into "just another gun". But, if used correctly, a Jedi not only loses an opportunity to cut, but may also find themselves near instantly killed.
  2. Hm, an interesting idea. If the gunner stays focused, their vunerability is low to the Force, and their shots are well aimed. If they try to do all of that AND fly away, AND aim, then they are seriously vulnerable. If they want to attack from the air, it may require a variety of weapons, like pistols, instead of just investing in a rocket launcher. Could be a good idea. I'd envision the Mishap bar as a "balance" meter as well. It would determine what can be done, and provide a certain level of risk. If you swing your saber too predictably during an offensive, you build up mishap and find yourself disarmed. If you shoot your gun indiscriminately, while running too and fro, you find yourself disadvantaged. In each situation, you can still perform the action, but not without consequence. But programming that... yeah, I have no ability to do that, and couldn't tell how difficult that would be to implement.
  3. Well, I don't think we should adopt any "crouch or walk to avoid Force Powers" rules. I always hated that. MB2 had a good system in terms of balance, but I don't find it very fun in regards to the walking thing (and I mean no insult there). In other words, I don't like watching an opponent laugh off my Force Push because they're walking. Does the Jedi get to laugh off guns because he's walking? Not really. On that note, I'm liking this idea that Absorb become more of a "Drain your FP for protection" system. Remember, the original Absorb wasn't all that great because even though you were immune to Force Powers, getting hit by something would still stun you. So a gunner with absorb, while he wasn't getting pushed, was still pausing at some point. In OJP, even that brief pause is gone, which is fine. It's just completely disallowed the ability to catch up to someone. As it stands, we have the "Can't counter Force Powers from Behind" rule. But Absorb, for a mere 8 point investment, cancels most of that handicap out. So we need a definite change in that area. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- And on that same note, there's a few other changes that I think need to be considered for serious modification. 1.) Jetpacks As of version r, I'm a bit displeased with the Jetpack. Here's what I think the problem with it is. It's not the amount of points it costs. It's not the availability. It's the mobility. As of right now, the Jetpack allows too much movement. Changing the cost of it will never change this. I've never been a guy to shirk the ability to fly, but there are certain limitations to the JO/JA game engine in terms of the fighting animations that makes flying too powerful. Against other guns, the jetpacks is no big deal. Just point and shoot. No problem. But against lightsabers, flying becomes too difficult to counter. It's not so much that the jetpack moves too fast, or flies too high, as much as it is that the lightsaber animation are simply not designed for "chasing" people. It's good for dueling. It's average at ground combat against an evasive opponent. It's absolutely horrid at anything involving a character going verticle. Note that a common strategy to avoid getting chopped in half when defensive measures are gone is to bunny hop around. Bunny hopping will always be a good defense against a great many things in games, but when using a gun, bunny hopping is usually a last ditch effort to save some seconds of life. Against a lightsaber, and with Force Absorb, it's much more effective. Add in a jetpack, and you've got a nightmare of "chase the bunny hopper with your really heavy wiffle bat." There is no "quick stab" animation for the saber. No instant hit swing. A gun laser pops right out. A lightsaber always takes a half second or so to get the full swing, and a brief delay to "point" or select the swing you want. Nothing we do will change this. In lieu of all this, the jetpack needs to be seriously toned down. I don't like the fact that you can levitate around often with it. Fuel regeneration is too high. In addition, it seems to lack that "movie" feel to it. Jango Fett and Boba Fett were not known for cruising around in the air multiple times, for many seconds at a time. I think the jetpack should have the ability to let opponents fly very high, away from Jedi and other opponents. It should be superior, in some aspects, to Force Jump. Forget trying to match height potential there. But right now, Jetpacks can be used more frequently than Force Jump, and for less "cost". In addition, it takes you to higher places. There's practically no need for Force Jump in that case, and when combined, you have the ultimate lightsaber deterrent. Remember... lightsabers suck at chasing flying opponents. There's just no decent swing animation to hit that kind of stuff. None. I think the jetpack should be something that gives gunners 1-3 seconds of flight potential. When they use that jetpack, they better have a real destination in mind, and a plan of action. As it stands, they mostly use it as a "well, I charged in with my gun and he's getting too close, so I'll fly around a little." It should give a quick boost, but not allow too much mobility, or change of direction. As it stands now, it seems like you can move around freely, with out much "physics." Correct me if I'm wrong in that regard, I haven't used the jetpack too much. So I'm not calling for its removal. I'm not calling for a cost increase. I am asking that it's fuel reserve be drastically reduced, and it's usage be cut down. In Promod, the jetpack fuel regenerated quickly. BUT, that jetpack had less mobility and "levitation" potential than OJP's jetpack. That was the deciding factor. You couldn't just fly. If you wanted to go high, you usually need to jump up and go straight up. You could not go foward, then decide to fly high, go around in a circle, and maybe shoot down. Force powers also affected it. Still, Promod's jetpack wasn't perfect either, and had it's annoying quirks too. OJP doesn't need to rip the jetpack apart. Just limit the mobility aspect. Or, if we like how it moves, cut that jetpack fuel WAYYY down. Reduce it to short bursts for emergency evacuation. Not constant movement. 2.) Mishap Bar I feel the Mishap Bar is still seriously underepresented and underused. I like it. I like the idea behind it. But it doesn't factor into any aspect of my gameplay. Even in duels, I hardly pay attention to my mishap bar, even when fighting a defensive opponent that has gotten good at raising an opponents mishap. Even in one fight, my mishap was at 90% for a good portion of the fight. I was disarmed only once. And that was... random. That disarm didn't really affect me. I recalled the saber, had plenty of DP left, and just restarted. My FP was way down... but so was his. We recovered and started anew. I eventually switched to a faster stance and rushed down for a lucky win. All the work he had put into blocking my shots didn't really pay off. We should seriously entertain just raising the mishap threshold. Let's get more consequences in there. Battles right now are fast. DP costs are just right, in my opinion, and need no serious change. But the Mishap meter is something we should consider playing around with for a bit. Perhaps, if there is to be any difference in styles, the Mishap Meter is where it's at. Allowing for better opportunities to get slow bounces, disarms, and the like. I know it would be annoying if people were disarmed every five seconds. But if someone is able to block effectively and raise mishap, why not reward them? Also, there's rarely an opportunity to see mishap go high enough to allow for a quick chance to use the Force and blow the opponent back. 3.) OJP system and Gunners One thing that's come to my attention while playing is how gunners fit into the OJP world. I like the new guns. I like the gun speeds. I love rockets. I like jetpacks. I like flamethrowers, and all the rest. The thing I don't like, however, is how Gunners fit into the OJP "Physics". Before, a Jedi had incredible abilities via OJP's system. They could "dodge" virtually anything. They could meditate to quickly regain Force ability. Lighting would stun and knockdown opponents. The list goes on. But everything was tied down, or held in check, by the FP/DP/MP system. If you used your Force too much, it even slowed you down. You became ineffective and had to take a brief cooldown. Without DP, your saber dueling was no long much use. You coudln't even block guns. Again, while powerful, the Jedi had to "cooldown" for a moment. With MP, a Jedi could potentially be disarmed, or some other foul accident. Lately, that MP hasn't seen much use, but when it does happen, it's not pleasant. This prevented a Jedi from swinging too much, or moving indiscriminately. Gunners currently don't have any of that going on for them. Their reliance on the DP/FP/MP system is minimal at best, and almost always beneficial to them, in fact. FP? Not necessary. In fact, it just helps curb their bunny hopping. If they run out, the jetpack is available. Since they aren't using a lightsaber, FP's absence isn't sorely missed, and usually is quickly regenerated. MP? Not a factor. DP? Just ensures that a Jedi, when he gets a hit in, isn't going to necessarily win. With enough DP, we have situations where that one or two hits the Jedi lands don't kill. Those one or two hits may be the only ones a Jedi typically lands. In addition, having DP isn't critical. The gunner keeps distance and shoots people. It is not dependent on having enough DP to consider going in for something. I'll grant that a gunner can't really be entirely tied down to this system, but I propose that we consider what's going on make some changes. Perhaps DP costs should be doubled when not having a lightsaber out to defend against lightsaber swings? Perhaps there should be some sort of Mishap occurence for missed shots, running while shooting, or having shots deflected back? Either way, a gunner not being tied down by the three tier system creates a certain advantage. Maybe it's not as "big" as I'd like to think, and perhaps if the jetpack was toned down, none this would really matter. But I thought it was worth considering for a bit.
  4. Agreed on this point. Absorb is too much of a free pass still. I take back what I said earlier about point values. Turns out, I've been playing with the old point values from Version P, when everyone else is playing with r. So... I was playing with twice the score costs. No wonder I thought it was too hefty. The current scoring system seems just fine. Still, we definitely need a Force System overhaul. Or at least I think we do. We need to solidify how Push and Pull will work. In my opinion, everything is still too "two-demensional". We have a Mishap Bar and a Dodge Point Bar that seem to have lots of involvement in a Force-Sensitive saber battle, but no relevance (except when blocking lightning) in any Force Dueling. Maybe we should change that? Also, Force Powers needed. But I've been whining about that and doing nothing for a while now.
  5. Alright, after having played around for a while, I'll add my two coppers here. All of htis is based on the settings we have with Meatgrinder. If things are non-issue because experience point rewards would be higher, etc., then disregard what I have to say. Firstly, I think we're getting too caught up in a "Combinations" war. While there are some combinations that are posing problems for us, the issue is not the combination itself so much as the powers and weapons at hand. I think the biggest issue that we have to resolve for this current version is three fold: Force Power variety, countering abilities, and Ability Costs. Force Power variety is first. Simply put, we're sorely needing it. We've regressed to a system that involves too much on Jedi using knockdowns to get hits with the lightsaber. I'm all for knockdowns being used constantly, but it's currently ALL we have. As far as I'm concerned, why waste points on lightning when I can do just as well with some level of push and pull? Jedi are currently one trick ponies in the Force department. We need variety, badly. I know we're still sorting out what powers there should be available, and a lot of hte ideas I provided were outlandish in terms of implementing and using. But I've seen some nice, simple ideas lately. We need to get around to implementing them, and giving Jedi something more than "Knockdown/slash". It's great... but it's not good enough. The next issue we have is with countering abilities. This is closely related with ability costs. Currently, the cost to get access to certain abilities, in order to counter other abilities, is a bit skewed. If I want to counter a rocket launcher, I need access to Force Push, or Pull. Or I need a jetpack to keep safe. Something. On a low experience point server, this becomes a problem. I don't get easy access. Countering being knocked down requires at least a level of Force Jump. Again... with other essentials, like having a lightsaber, that is a bit expensive and slow to get to. In a higher point game, I'd still say that the cost to counter abilities is either too high, or too rigid. Want to counter lightning? You MUST build yourself in a certain manner. Want to avoid rockets? Must have certain abilities ready. I don't mind that this is so, but I think we need to tweak costs a bit to reflect this. Lightning gets cursed because the methods of countering it require to stringent a set of abilities. Costs need to be adjusted. Perhaps lightning needs to cost a great deal more. I'm not sure. Costs and variety are our two biggest problems, as far as I can tell. That's what we should be focusing on next, outside of tweaking saber combat (I'll post in that other thread... JR Hockney is on to something as far as I'm concerned). We currently have a system that involves this: -Saber combat -Abilities that knock you down -Abilities that let you fly -One ability to negate force powers Other powers are currently suspect or non-issue. Sense... eh. Speed... eh. Grip... I'm still trying to figure out what it's purpose is. I'm trying to be creative... but it's not really working. So that's it. I don't think it's really the combinations that are the problem, as much as it is how much things cost, and what variety is available. In a game where knockdowns are predominant, then of course we're going to see some combinations that are irksome because they take advantage of delivering knockdowns and countering them all at the same time. If Jedi had access to different abilities, then they may not be as frustrated with Gunners that have "Push" abilities or other mobility. If we focus on powers that aren't necessarily beneficial to getting range and firing guns, then Jedi wouldn't be so pressed in the "trying to be pure" department. Otherwise, the game seems fine to me. Being a Jedi requires craftiness, which is what I like. I don't want to get special bonuses for not using guns. I do, however, want costs to be adjusted so that if I don't spend points on guns, I can still afford a combination of abilities that is unique enough to allow me to get around. Gunners are at a good power level right now. They can kill quickly. The blaster is non-existent, but that bowcaster is awesome. The rocket launcher is irksome at times, and I wonder sometimes if the splash damage is affecting the shooter as much as it's affecting everyone else. The flamethrower is a cool weapon, and I think it's been implemented nicely. Gunners don't need to be nerfed. Jedi, on the other hand, do not need a power boost either. They simply need a small adjustment on some costs, along with variety. Variety simply meaning abilities other than "Push that guy to the ground" or rather, abilities that have an affect on the battlefield that goes beyond point and shoot. The weakness here is that using a sword and having a push ability is great, but we need powers to augment our sword, since that's our killing tool. Heal, Protect, Mind Trick, Rage, Drain, Sense, and Speed need to do something here. Speed going fast isn't really helping right now. Sense is... a wall hack that sees little use outside of that. WE have five other things. We really need to pull together and focus on that list of powers. And start trying stuff out. Just like gunners needed some gadgets... Jedi need gadgets right now. Not a power boost. Not restricted access. Gadgets.
  6. Two cents to add on the subject as well. Jedi Knight had the Force Throw ability in game. I've found that no matter what, Force Throw has always been a wonky power at best. The objects thing was always an obstacle. The other problem was how to counter it. In JK, you couldn't counter it, so in certain maps, Force Throw was king. Just constantly spam it, and people died because there were so many objects being tossed around. JA could conceivably have a counter, but I could just picture people either always using Throw because of how useful it might be, or never using it because restrictions make it too clunky to be worthwhile. A cool concept, but in practice it would always be a burden.
  7. I can learn to like that idea. Personally, that's how I'd envision the styles as well. Giving each one a primary strength and weakness. Having a "dooku" style where precise attacks and speed are its strength, but a parrying defense that isn't as great as it seems. This would kind of mesh with the "mythology" behind Anakin's Form V style defeating Form II because Form II was unable to deflect or hold off the strength and aggressiveness. Or, as the EP III book supposedly implied, Dooku occasionally found his own blade being pushed up against him as he tried to "parry" or deflect Anakin's blows. I know that's all EU fluff, but eh, it makes for good ideas behind some of the styles. Blue style could retain many of the qualities it has now. A very balanced style, with short range but quick attacks an ability to chain endlessly and steadily. Yellow could have its DP values left alone, etc., but perhaps give it bonuses for acrobatics. Red could have the aggressive ability, doing more damage per swing, but at the cost of having a much higher Mishap threshold. Juyo would have even more Mishap (due to one hand), less damage, but perhaps a great parrying ability or movement. I don't know. The other thing that kind of bothers me is that all of the saber swings are the same speed (practically). Not that there should be a radical differnence. But perhaps timing of the swings is something to look at. Perhaps some of the styles could have faster fakes as well (although a quicker speed may detract from players having much control over where they deliver their strikes). Perhaps the staff should have acrobatic ability bonuses. I don't really know.
  8. I'll agree with you here. Admitedly, the rock/paper/scissors style only worked in Promod because of the nature of saber combat in that game. There was more defense bonus for walking backwards, more offense for going fowards. Crouching added a defense bonus and an offense penalty. Essentially, there was a rock/paper/scissor aspect, but with only three styles, this was hardly a problem or a game of "counters" so to speak. Then again, there was no DP or anything like that either, hence the lack of a need to counter constantly. With OJP, what you said is correct. We'd have nothing but countering of styles. However, JR is still correct that, as it stands, we have a game where the styles really don't matter. You pick a style merely because you like the swing animations. That's just the truth of it. Blue style is just as radical as Red style. Sure, blue has less range and more rapid attacks, but other than that... what's the difference? Red style, to me, doesn't seem like an aggressive style. It just seems like a style with longer range and slower combos than blue/turqoise. Yellow seems like it has less pronounced swings than purple and red. The impact of those styles just isn't there, and in battle I hardly ever encounter a switching of styles when up against human players. Not that this is a problem. If you want to stick to one style, then so be it. But the DP values don't really match the styles being chosen. It's essentially a game, as it stands, of choosing a cosmetic look (or judging logistics on what you're most comfortable with, and what range the attacks have). I don't think the DP values should be radical... just enough to reflect what the styles are supposed to represent. Admitedly, I don't know what those DP values should be. ==== On the other hand, I can see the opposition to this. There is more of a difference between the styles as it stands right now. But I think JR is still on to something... there is SOMETHING missing to differentiate the styles. Maybe it isn't DP values per hit/per block that we should be looking at then. Or maybe that's precisely what we need... a Fencing style, an Aggressive Style, a Fast Style, a Balanced Style. I really don't know. But if we created such styles, we'd get lost in a game where moves aren't so free-form, and it's more about who can use the styles most effectively. There's an element we don't have. I just can't really say, for 100% certainty, what that is.
  9. A "Promod-esque" suggestion. Don't balance the styles on an individual basis. Rather, give each style a strength and weakness, with a circular nature in terms of what works best at what. In Promod, the stances were never balanced either. Yellow stance was still the most widely used, because of its overall characteristics. Depending on what version, red or blue was the next "best choice". The styles were "balanced" by creating a trumping system. Essentially, yellow would out-finesse Red, Red would crush blue, and blue would disarm yellow. I realize it's much harder to do that with five styles (more like seven considering the other two sabers), but then again, why really "balance" them? Give each style a marginal benefit and disadvantage, along with a penalty versus certain styles. Of course, this whold argument falls apart because of the saber staff and the dual sabers. They are an anomaly in a rock-paper-scissor format since they user couldn't change styles quickly. Still, I agree with JR on this one. The styles definitely need "values" to be given to them. I really don't worry about the "balance" of the single saber styles because it's easy enough to add checks and balances. Yellow two effective because of the efficient animations, etc? Give blue a slight advantage over it. To trump it. That way, there's always a slight counter against someone that decides that "purple" is the best because of whatever stats it has.
  10. You're on to something here. It certainly would reduce the need of having 30 different powers, all with power slots (some of which would be, admittedly, pretty useless initially). If they were the higher component, then you could simply choose the arbitrary number for each effect. You'd always get what you paid for, and power selection would even be predictable (User goes down the Rage Path, or User Goes down the Channeling of the Force Path, etc).
  11. Agreed, but I still think it should be a power that is both turned on and drains FP rapidly. This would be the "skill" equation. If Absorb simply nullified attacks automatically, all the time, then it elimnates the need for opposing push and pull scores that are currently in place. Might as well just buy absorb. Basically, if opponents fight and the attacker manages to "sneak in" a Force Push, and the other user doesn't have the defense for it, good on them. If the defender uses Absorb at the right time, then they get the bonus of having defended against the attack entirely, and absorbing the blow. Also, they wouldn't be stunned, so they can follow through with the attack while the push user still has to wait for the cool down.
  12. You have a good point here. Absorb should probably be more of a neutral power, in that sense. Something that everyone can use, since as they get stronger in the Force, they would be more able to "nullify" one another's attacks. Why not balance this power by making it Tier 1, but simply putting a very high cost on its use (initial cost 8 or 10... subsequent levels 20 and 30). This way, if a light side user didn't want to use the dark side, they could opt for a much more powerful Absorb ability.
  13. More Force Power Suggestions (Recently Edited Too) Based on the tier suggestions, I'd "place" some of the powers in the imaginary tiers. Force Drain -----> Shroud of the Dark Side (Tier 3) The Dark Side clouds everything. A big theme in the Prequel Movies. The Jedi constantly complain of their connection to the Force being somewhat clouded, or even weakened. A user of the Shroud weakens their targets connection to the Force, causing a draining effect against the opponent, and reducing the effectiveness of their attacks temporarily. Use: A spell cast just like Drain. This can either be a cone like "shot", or we could modify it to act like a passive field that quickly shoots out. Field or shot lasts one second. Drain user cannot reinitiate the cloud until after a 60 second cooldown (no constant shroud barrages). Opponents attack level is also temporarily drained for a few seconds (5 seconds max). Gunners find their aiming skewed and weapon damage decreased. Can be countered by target's Force Sense level (having it turned on during casting). Other counters include Battle Meditation (since it would reincrease DP damage per swing). Effect: The Shroud user loses a sizeable FP chunk (50-30-20). Upon use, the target's Mishap Meter shoots up towards critical levels, allowing for an early disarm, heavy bounce from a parry, knockdown, or the like. DPs are also somewhat drained (10-20-25 pts). (Lord Sidious quickly surprises and coup de graces several Jedi Masters that were considered master-swordsman. Perhaps they're senses were clouded by the quick surprised attack) Force Heal ------------------> Force Meditation (Tier 2) Qui-Gon Jinn fought valiantly against the young and able Darth Maul. After being tossed around, kicked, and tested for lengths of time, Jinn is given a brief respite to rest. Slouching to his knees, he meditates, regaining his strength. Use: User meditates (via using the power). During meditation, user cannot Dodge, block Force Pushes, or defend against any other distractions. Activating other powers during meditation immediately ceases the benefits of the meditation. With each use, the players FP and DP must be above "Red" level.(Jedi has to be at least somewhat conscious of his connection... no quick redliner saves). Effect: During the duration of use, the users FPs regenerate more rapidly. In addition, HP also slowly regenerates, though at a slower rate than normal FP regen. Force Protect ------------------------> Battle Meditation (Tier 2) A Jedi's strengths flows through the Force. When using this power, the user gathers strength through allowing the Force to flow through them, increasing certain attributes in battle during use. Use: Jedi activates the power. There is an initial cost (40/30/20), followed by constant drain. The aura can be countered or shut off the following ways: Being successfully attacked by the Force (Knockdown from Push/Pull, Lightning, Grip), knockdown from explosives or shock weapons, blaster shots successfully landing (breaching Dodge), a Mishap occurring (disarm, knockdown), or due to poor performance (4 consecutive hits unblocked or parried). FP constantly drains while in use. Once FP pool reaches 40%, the power can no longer be used. User gains FP bonus for every mishap he incurs against his opponent, or successful victory against an opponent while turned on. Effect: The Jedi's defenses are raised while the aura is active. The duration and success is based on performance. While active, the Jedi gains a brief DP (20/30/40) bonus due to their connection with the Force, and their successful blocks and parries increase a users instance of mishap sooner (more mishap added to opponent per successful block). In addition, blaster deflection is increased in efficiency. During this time, Jedi's FP slowly decreases, but is given a defense bonus as well (20%/30%/40%). (Obi-Wan Kenobi shows us that he truly trusts in the Force throughout the films. Rocket blasts distract him, but upon the initial hit he seems to leap away unharmed. While he is certainly not immortal, he shows a toughness and resilience that many Jedi lack. During fighting, he quickly defends and against and disarms the might Grievous in single combat). Force Mind Trick ----------------> Battlemind (yeah, I'm ripping off d20) Using the Force as an ally, the user briefly steals himself against his opponent, allowing him to use his lightsaber abilities more effectively against them. Through the focus of this power, one's morale and fighting spirit is augmented. Use: Cast against one opponent, or several based on level, This attack is similar to rage, but is rather a more focused version that also costs more, and affects only the number of opponents the user can focus on (1 at level 1, 2 within a field of vision (no aim), and several at the highest level). The effect is countered by having at least Force Seeing lvl2 activated before the casting. Battlemind is also countered after user is "distracted" (see Battle Meditation). Effects: The attacks of the caster are briefly augmented to cause more DP damage per hit against the person it is used against. Speed of saber swings, etc., are not increased. DP augmentation is increased based on level (5%/10%/15%). FP drain is also based on level (40/30/20). That's all I have for now. I'm busy ripping off of d20 Force Powers as well. Many of them aren't helpful, but the names are useful, and some would work well, I think. Criticize away.
  14. Agreed then. I think this is a good idea. This way, we don't have Jedi running around who can't see who's coming. It's a power that is oft ignored. Might as well force people to include it at least a little bit. Heck, you can't even finish certain single player levels without having Force Seeing. This would also prevent folks from starting a low level game with tons of other powers, hence putting gunners on the "trash" list since they'd have no early options to defend against being constantly pushed and pulled from afar. Specifics: I'm bad at this stuff, but let's see. [Neutral Power Tier] - Pre-req Force Seeing All neutral powers would fit in this category. This is effectively Tier 1. The only pre-requisite for taking powers in Tier 1 is a single level of Force Seeing. The following powers would be available in the neutral tier section (based on what powers we currently have available). Jump/Push/Pull/Speed/Seeing (five powers total) [Passive Force Power Tier] - Pre-Reqs - 3 Neutral Power Tiers initiated. Passive Force Powers of both the Light and Dark Side would go here. This would include powers such as Rage, Protect, Heal, Mind Trick, or anything else we come up with. Basically, status effect powers would be here. Rational being that mid-tier Jedi and Sith had access to pretty neat abilities, such as Maul's rage and Obi-Wan's constant patience. [Final Tier] Pre-Reqs - 4 Neutral Powers, 2 Passive Powers (theoretical) The Final Tier would be wear all the "ultimate" abilities we see from the movies would go. This would essentially be the "Hero" tier, where the greatest villains and heros tested their mettle against one another. Force Lightning, with its terrible abilities, would be here. Any other Force Powers, like Drain, Grip, etc., would also be featured here. Any light side powers we invent, even stuff like Absorb could be fitted in here (absorb is pretty powerful in OJP at the moment... I was able to completely nullify Force attacks with it, even if it is draining). And there you have it. In terms of how much each power would cost initially, I've thought of an initial system, but only testing and more imput would create excellent values. Tier 1 - Force Seeing - 5 points (become Force sensitive) Force Jump - Max's 7 point seems okay... encourage Jedi mobility Force Pull/Push - 8 point start is fine. Force Speed - 7 again... what use does this power currently have? Tier 2 - All passive Force Powers start with a cost of 10... progressive increases are much less... like half the cost. This was people choose a power in the beginning of matches, and tend to stick with it, as opposed to quickly hording what they can get. Final level of powe would again cost 10. Tier 3 - 12 point start... then steep decrease as they increase the power. Final level of course would be high cost again of 12. I'll make another post with Force Power ideas I've recently had cross my mind.
  15. Well, that's sort of what I meant. The "pre-reqs" don't need to be complicated or overblown. Just some kind of control. The idea being that players should at least have invested points in mundane powers before they become "Shock Masters". If I had to make a quick example, it would be like this: Force Grip: Grip players with the Force violently. Pre-Reqs: Player has invested points in at least four different powers in whatever "tier" we'd place Grip in. The way this would work would keep it simple. Players wouldn't have to unload tons of points into push or jump just to get access. Instead, they'd have to have at least filled out a certain number of powers from a category. So if a category of powers had five Force powers in it, And Grip was in the "next category" (all theoretically speaking), then the pre-req would be something like "invest points in at least 3 powers in Tier 1". For lightning, it would be something like 4 powers. So they can still choose to forgo something, but have to invest elsewhere. This way, early game choices wouldn't introduce "Shock Masters" or "Super Absorbers" early on. Instead, everyone would have a more "well-rounded" model, and as the game progresses, more powers would appear in battle. If powers were put into something like three tiers, the requirements could be based on this: Tier 1 powers: Instant access... all neutral powers. Tier 2 powers: Light and Dark abilities... mostly passive abilities (rage, protect) Tier 3 powers: Abilities that are cast upon others, both Light and Dark. Lightning. Etc. Advanced saber abilities (maybe). Each level of power would be "granted" after a player had filled enough from the other tiers. 4 from Tier 1. 2 or 3 from tier 2 (depending on how much was there), and then Tier 3 is open season afterward. All you have to do is front the initial cost of the power (which would be high). So, if a player really wanted lightning early on, they could conceivably do that. But it will be more expensive to get their, than it would be to advance other, earlier powers into higher levels. So there's a higher trade than there currently exists now.
  16. Honestly, I think points isn't all that will "fix" the current Force system. I'm a supporter of being able to "choose what you like" in terms of Force Powers, but I think that the system would benefit more from having a "tier" system, in that you can't access certain tiers until you've invested points in a variety of categories. The problem we have now with the powers is that, especially in the beginning rounds, players can quickly specialize in high use powers, like lightning. While this can quite easily be countered by either also investing in lightning, or matching with absorb, it kind of detracts from the game. Last night's test was fun, and I thought it was hilarious getting shocked and then shot to death on the floor. That feature should remain, as far as I'm concerned. The problem is that it's a feature that happens too soon, or at too low a level, to the point that players can opt to circumvent the saber system and just specialize in strong powers to overwhelm everyone, other Force Powers be darned. By forcing players to invest in certain power "trees" you can prevent the 'uber-tweaking'. Granted, we're all still going to pick what is most effective and efficient, but it would create a better feeling if everyone wasn't "The Dark Lord of the Sith that can shoot lightning... but can't jump over a crate or block a Force Push." I'm currently thinking of writing up a rough draft for categories and tiers... but we're still short on ideas for other Force Powers. Also, would we actually WANT to have the powers tiered and categorized? I think it's a good idea. I think buying different saber styles, etc., and having everything lead into one another would be a great system. But that would require more work... and ideas. There's always a downside.
  17. So... a few force power ideas, along with some comments of my own. [On power attack and making it parryable to avoid locks] I rather like the feature of being able to force a lock for a kill. It adds an element to the game that makes players think when they're low on DP, instead of just trying to hang in there and hoping for a good parry. It also gives the offensive person a nice coup de grace moment, where they know they can go full tilt. Providing a defense against it... sure, but I'd prefer it was something that wasn't a guarentee. A Parry against it... as long as your idea for countering it isn't something that completely negates the effect it has now, reducing the lock into nothing more than a mistake or lack of skill on the defender's part. [On "Channeling the Force"] I was going to write all of these little ideas for using the various Force Powers for certain aspects, or how to jive with some of the ideas that Maxy had presented earlier. But I felt they were all falling short because OJP really doesn't seem like an ideal game to base on "Force Powers" that have separate abilities or the like. Rather, I think we're all kind of leaning towards introducing "Force Attributes" instead. Force Push/Pull/Jump/Grip/Lightning/Speed/Absorb/Seeing already have a firm place in the game. They work, they function well. They should have their own attribute category. Then other abilities we "invent" can be introduced into other categories. Previously, I had mentioned an idea of having users invest Skill Points into certain categories, and in order to unlock "The Dark Side", the user would have to spend even more points in certain areas to "reach" that point. So one would invest points in Push and Pull, and then choose to go "onward" and invest points in the Dark Side to have Lightning. But I guess that wouldn't really work out in the end. What would a light side user do with all those unspent points. So instead, I think the system should be open, as it already is. But have certain powers with high costs than they currently have. Powers get placed into sections, and but certain powers would have higher cost ratings. I think "Channeling the Force" should be a category, and we go about devising both a "Light" and "Dark" way of channeling. For the Dark Side, we have powers like Rage. For the Light... well, we're still thinking. I've probably rewritten this post a million times, and I still don't know what I'm talking about. I just think we should think of more ideas that move away from the "Point and Shoot" philosophy. We already have enough of those. The only problem I see with maxy's channel idea right now is that it's both "boring" to use, and might not see much utility in a duel, whereas the rage idea is usable any time.
  18. I'd say an animation difference would work too, although I think the flashing of the DP meter would also be a good indicator, letting someone know they had a successful block/parry. That's the problem I currently suffer from now, as a newbie (I'm afraid bots aren't really making me any better at this game :-) ). I can't tell how successful I am against them. I could be smacking them to death, and they're still kicking. I could be blocking their shots, but until the start bouncing wildly out of control, I can't really tell how close I am to defeating them.
  19. I'll post more later when my brain is refrehsed for Saturday, but just a couple comments. 1.) Play 009n. It's beautiful. Seriously, I jumped from playing version f to this, and it's lightyears ahead. Even lightyears ahead of i. Honestly, it just felt so smooth. You could really put your finger one whether it was time to block and conserve energy, or swing for the kill, wheras previous versions felt like there was no benefit to not swinging. Especially with the slow-down at 25 DP instead of just 10... forces you to be conservative instead of spam-tastic. 2.) With that being said, I think the Jedi would benefit more from having powers that directly relate to combat in terms of getting FP and DPs, or causing other opponents to suffer MPs more quickly. The system just seems to be capable of suiting something like that well. The Rage ideas, etc, would work well. I've noticed that you already get a DP/FP bonus for each kill as well. Rage giving an even greater bonus would be quite a feature, but the negative costs would still need to be evaluated. 3.) Mercs could definitely benefit from access to gadgets over having "skills". I'd say that the Merc class should be more of about using technology over having natural or "Force-related" abilities. So while the Jedi rely on "natural" abilities, the mercs rely wholly on their source of unnatural power. Max mentioning the flamethrowers, etc., would be fantastic to see. The only problem is that the gadgets shouldn't completely trump the need for weapons. Flamethrowers, visors (to see things... wall hacks are better suited for those that absolutely want to avoid saber combat), perhaps access to a shield generator that is based on "ammo" instead of item usage. So you can turn it on and off at will, deciding when to use it block a persuer. 4.) Some of the Force powers, considering how the system works now, seem to eat up alot of energy. Lightning is a menacing power, but won't last long with anyone who uses it. Perhaps tweaking how much damage it does for the short-bursts might be worth looking at. Should Force Push/Pull ever do damage on a successful knockdown? Just a thought, not something that's needed. But anyway, beautiful system. The saber locks are wonderful. Not too much, but still predictable. I see the parrying system seems more based on sabers clashing than waiting for random bounces (although bounces still occur, just not as often, at least for me). And really, the slowdown at 25 makes a big difference. It's kept me from just swinging like crazy, and actually gives an incentive to deciding to block over just hoping your saber beats the other guys DP meter. Having Force Powers that give boosts to certain meters would be a pretty interesting way of tweaking the system. Sometimes I'd have no FP left, but a good chunk of DP remaining to block and parry with.
  20. I'm having the same issues as Sushi, and have tried the same things to frix it. wiped out enhanced folder. Replaced with new stuff, plus m. i can run a game, and put myself in it. but as soon as a bot is added, the whole thing crashes. So I can play coop, and run around by myself in other modes. but once bots are added to the mix, the game crashes before anything appears.
  21. Brilliant idea here. Not just with how Rage could work, but the general direction of how Force powers should be implemented. My suggestion would be to tool EVERY force power in OJP enhanced towards the DP/FP/MP meters. It would create a consistency for everything, and allow players to always predict, to a degree, what will happen when they do certain things. The consistency would be created by no longer having any "random" powers. "Ooh, I blast you with this." "Well, where did that come from?" "I don't know, but it works." Lightning and absorb seem to be "solved" for the most part. They counter each other, and the rnaking system seems to work as well. In addition, absorb users would be able to prevent disastrous force pushes during a serious mishap (theoretically). So absorb has a use, even if it's not the most glorious or exciting. So, a couple ideas for some of the Force Powers. I'll confess that I'm initially being overzealous in terms of proposing some things. If it's even doable or worth the time is something I'm leaving in the back of my mind for now. One suggestion I'd have for any Force Power discussion is that if we propose anything, we be able to back the idea up with an example from Star Wars. Like the films. Even if it's sort of "stretching it", at least provide an example of inspiration. --RAGE-- Increased FP/DP sounds great. The question remains of how the player would receive this bonus, and would it it adversely affect how the game is played. I'd say that it should be a power that gives immediate benefits when turned on. The penalty for using it in the past was loss of HP. But HP really doesn't have much value in OJP. You get shot and you die. Or slashed in half. Having more or less HP doesn't seem too terribly useful. It's good to have full health, as it allows that chance of survival, but sacrificing it for lots of power seems not enough of a risk. What if the FP/DP was increased incrementally (along with saber speed increase, like normal), but the mishap meter would also increase along with the gradual health drain? So, the rage user would get a burst of offensive power (more saber swings per-second, more force points to reek havoc, and more dodge points to survive in battle), but they are more vulnerable to having their weapon knocked away, and they fatigue (HP drain) rapidly? Invulnerability of rage user would be removed, instead favoring the user with a slight defense increase (10% cap)? [Hypothetical Movie Example] Darth Vader rages against Luke Skywalker. He effectively drives and overpowers the inexperienced warrior back (More FP... eh), only to have a quick and sudden surprise shot glance his shoulder(More DP/More Mishap). Still, he just gets angrier and totally dominates his attacker, disarming him literally. RotJ, Luke Skywalker rages against Darth Vader. More DP/FP as he drives Vader back (and despite wild swings, does not get hit), manages to eventually beat Vader in his rage (despite the lack of finesse or focus = higher mishap). Tired after finishing the job (drained HP). Anakin Skywalker dominates Obi-Wan Kenobi... only to have his legs cut off suddenly due to tactical error and lack of focus (higher mishap). [/Hypothetical Movie Example] --Protect-- Force Protect would be similar to Force Rage, but provide a different slant of benefits. DP would be increased (as the user is relying on the Force for added defense), and the DP increase would be greater than with Force Rage (which gets most of its power from the combination of increased speed, increased FP , AND a slight DP advantage). Protect would allow the user to last longer in battle, but not necessarily provide an offensive edge. A player could then use protect as a means of surviving longer, and having more opportunities to score successful parries, attack parries, etc. Because Protect drains FP constantly instead of HP (like Rage), it's not to the users advantage to leave it on constantly, or even necessarily to initiate combat with it, as it's only a DP increase. No offensive benefits, or mishap defenses. Every strike can still be attack parried, creating a situation where they may still block all of the shots thrown at them, but their rapidly losing FP in the process. Unsuccessful use results in a battered Jedi that falls to his knees and finally relents to a killing blow. Defense bonus like normal JA (they survive a little more, but still die rather quickly). [HME] Obi-Wan Kenobi counters General Grievous' onslaught with a skillful use of Soresu (I was never a fan of the book terminology ) along with his complete trust of the Force (Force Protect). Despite Grievous four lightsabers and deadly teaching from Count Dooku, Kenobi manages to parry and disarm his fierce opponent, and at the end even has FP to spare to send his opponent flying (due to allowing his opponent to do most of the attacking and slashing). Next, he handles Anakin's superior Rage by skillfully parrying and taking the defensive in their fight. He never overpowers Anakin, but he eventually takes the win by patiently drawing him into a mistake. He takes beatings from both Anakin, Jango Fett, and Grievous, and manages to somehow retain consciousness (defense bonus for Protect). [/HME] --Mind Trick-- I'm not sure I really like the "invisibility" aspect of this power. I think it's lame, even if it's cool to go through single player and walk right by enemies. But tricking their minds successfully and trying to simulate that in Multiplayer has never worked. And why someone NEEDS to take Force Seeing to counter this one power is beyond me. A preliminary idea I have for this would to again, allow it to be used as a bonus/ability in saber combat. By using mind trick, a single opponent is temporarily "tagged" by the user for a "surprise" strike. This stirke would have more accuracy, and the user would seem less aware of it's coming, hence they are apt to lose more DP and incur more MP when used. The downside to the power would be its Force Cost (which could be increased based on how "useful" it would be). In addition, the Trick would still work as it usually does. You target someone, get in range, then "cast" it. And the effect wears off upon attacking that person. This would give one shot, and be similar to a "Power Shot" or "Attack Fake" in a sense, but instead be more of a direct Force Power. Something they can't really seem coming. [Movie Example] Count Dooku battles Obi Wan and Anakin in EPII, constantly surprising them at opportune moments during the battle. Obi Wan finds himself quickly stabbed in the leg and arm (although I guess this could be more of a normal saberlock/superbreak example). Anakin fights Dooku with two sabers, only to find himself suddenly missing one lighsaber in the process (sudden mishap). He is surprised this even happens, and later on finds himself heavy bounced suddenly (things seemed to be going so well), followed by a lost arm. [/Movie Example] --Force Seeing-- Force Seeing still has one use. Wall-hacking. This has its uses, but unless you're playing capture the flag, this doesn't see that much use. Perhaps this power could be used to counter more than just Force Mind Trick. I'm on the fense with that one. Or, it could provide the user with a "read-out" of the opponents FP/MP/DP meters. Each level would provide further range of use, but also access to more bars. Level 1 would give MP only. Level 2 gives more range, a wall-hack, and a DP meter. Level 3 provides an FP meter as well, plus further range. --Drain-- I still have no clue what to suggest for this. It's a projectile power in origin. Can it be modified so that it's not a projectile? I have some ideas, but not sure what to do yet, and if it has to be a projectile type, then I have to modify the thought. A preliminary idea would be to have it drain something, but draining FP isn't a good idea. That really screws things up for OJP, and forces players to either have absorb on at all times, or avoid combat altogether, since EVERYTHING relies on having FP. That's all I've got in me for now. Let me know if these ideas are too whacked out or impractical for use. I ripped quite a bit from Razor's inspiration here as well. If anyone has other practical uses, chime in. I think the best way of approaching this would be to imitate the films. What did our favorite Jedi actually do? One thing JK/JO/JA kind of tweaked a bit too far (in my opinion) were the Force Powers. We don't see our favorite Jedi pals blasting things to death, or going the complete opposite direction and erecting one million different types of shields. Why not provide techniques, or ways of using the Force in fighting. Sidious and Maul were frightening and raged. Dooku was cold but calculating. Obi-Wan was resilient and deceptively passive. Qui-Gon seemed to fight with such energy, despite old age. Since we have Dark and Light powers on the same page, I think it's okay to blur the lines a bit. Let allegiances fall based on character, and who chooses to utilize which powers. While lightning is certainly an indication of "falling to the Dark Side", things such as rage could be argued as aspects that even some of the greatest Jedi never completely flush out of themselves. And even some of the darkest Sith still rely on old Jedi tricks if they knew them before hand.
  22. Of all the ideas that sounds like it's going to be full of disaster, this is one of them. Jump + Jetpack? I hope we have a good strategy in terms of balancing that out. In addition, I'm already weary of jetpacks in the first place. The saber combat system is nice, but remember that JA saber animations were designed, first and foremost, for two ground combatants with their feet FIRMLY planted on the floor beneath them. Once you go into aerial combat, you're still using the same swings and techniques. Heck, the lightsabers are bad enough when you're trying to hit something above your head, or below your feet. What I'm saying is don't overestimate lightsabers in JA. A jetpack that keeps me in the air is a great advantage over a lightsaber, and not because of distance. Instead, it's because it's hard to swing at anything that is floating or evading through the air. I'm hoping that jetpacks can, at best, be pulled down occasionally. I'd hate to be playing "chase the mouse" all day. Otherwise, all of this sounds good in the jump, lightsaber combat department. What about the other Force Powers now? I'm glad you started this thread, but I've noticed that we still haven't kicked around any good ideas on what to do with the other powers. So far, these are the powers that seem to have a "solution" or use in OJP. Force Speed Force Jump Push/Pull Force Lightning Force Heal (it works at least) Force Absorb (for now... I forsee problems with it in the future... think gunners immune to lightning) That still leaves us with Protect (not very useful), Drain, Rage, and Mind Trick (which is cool... except not very useful considering how the DP meter works). So what do we do about them? Are we still going to keep the standard JA Force system (Light/Dark menus)? I know that I haven't really offered and suggestions yet, but at least wanted to establish some grounding before we all start throwing ideas around.
  23. I have a different take on this. Forget "is it Starwars." I mean, that's a consideration, but let's not make it too central to the cause. The real question should be, "Does it fit in OJP?" And to that question, I could easily say that some of these things deserve a big NO. I too would prefer a game that follows more movie canon than EU. While cool, the EU, as razor pointed out, has too many bizarre components as well that rarely mesh well with the rest of its own stuff. The Thrawn Trilogy introduced ysalamari, cloaking devices, and tons of clones. Cool idea that unfortuantely wasn't very self-sustaining in the long run. It was kind of written, at least back then, as a "these are the Star War books... they're may not be that many more to come." Nowadays, ysalamari rarely make an appearance (they're game-breaking anyway), cloaking devices are cut back a bit from Thrawn's party days, and while the clones are still around, you don't see them making clones of the Solo kids, et al. At least, I hope they're not. Basically, if we accept any new elements, they have to fit in the OJP environment. This is the same environment where Force Drain doesn't really have a place or make an appearance. With that in mind, I think the same criteria should be placed on gadgets. Shields and regenerative armor rank on the "over the top list." It's simply not necessary. Grappling hooks and jetpacks are fine. But they should be restricted to limited mobility only. There's nothing more annoying than jetpacks that behave more like levitation devices, and grapplinging hooks with zero gravity or momentum to hinder them. About the only shield I would support would be something similar to a droideka field, or even just what JO/JA had with the shield generator walls. But that's about as far as I'd go. I think Star Wars should maintain its gritty feel, and OJP should be no different. Saber combat currently has this. Force powers only work after a duel has progressed. Jedi have great power, but need to stand still and take a breather in order to regain strength again. Any gadgets should have the same "feel" to them. High tech armor is fine... like Jango Fett's stuff. Armor that sees little use except in novels and comic books probably isn't so great.
  24. Personally, I like the saber lock system you've implemented Ace. It's cool to see, whereas in older versions there was very little locking occuring even though it seemed there definitely should have been (looking at how much saber colision happens). The only problem with the repostes, as they stand, is that they always end with a "winner", and that said winner can always follow through with a kick that will always knock the opponent down. This is a cool feature, but it needs to occur far less often. I wouldn't scrap repostes entirely. I think changing the conditions and outcomes is what is needed. Rather than turning kick into the MB slap, I think the clashes should be used instead as a means of either keeping people distanced, or preventing a rushdown. How this would be achieved? I don't know. My thought is that clashes should be predictable, like they are now in .0.09i. I was able to successfully produce locks through a power strike. I think it's easier to initiate these locks when people stay within range and allow me to windup and slam them. If they work around dodging and parrying, it's a different story. So I don't think the slap is needed. Predictable locks are an annoying enough deterrence. I just think the lock system should be changed. Perhaps, while the opponents are still in somewhat equal MP levels, locks should simply result in a neutral "lock and push" mechanism." The initiator would have an advantage in terms of "winning" the push and shove the person away. If the defender meets certain conditions, they end up shoving their opponent away instead. In either case, a "saber through the face" event could be predictably prevented, and distance could be created. And someone loses DP over the matter. Low Mp values could be as normal. Either stunned and ready to be knocked down with a kick, or open to a quick kill with the saber. But turning kick into slap isn't a good idea. I didn't like the slap in MB. I'd rather see what can be done with the saber locks.
  25. It's true that in the later versions, parry and blocking is less "effective." But this is a good thing. My experience even with bots now is much better than it previously was. In 9.0b, my brother and I tried out a match and discovered that it was sometimes EASIER to just put your saber away and punch your opponent to death. He would charge and fire off lightning to force a block, then punch me. Gratned, I was killing him 3:1... but he was still embarassing me without even igniting his lightsaber. It was the combination of lightning bursts, his dodge meter automatically negating my attacks, and punches that I can't block (for some reason). It gave me the thought that perhaps, when a person does not have a saber ignited, there should be triple damage to the meter or something, but I guess that would ruin things if you ended up getting disarmed, as that would result in an instant kill on the follow up, as opposed to now it's just a risk and hazard. Anyway, I've been playing 9.0h lately, and the game is just much tighter. The only way to really beat the bots is to go on defensive mode. You can't go "toe-to-toe," with them, as they're extremely aggressive... and probably not necessarily playing "fair" either. Despite that, their weakness is that they will relentlessly attack, giving the opportunity to move back, get a few parries in, and gradually drain them. I'm not sure what version i has changed versus h, but I like how the parry system is now. Before, it really did ruin battles. Here... you actually have to retreat, and even if you do, you're constantly at risk of losing. In 9.0b, you could literally walk backwards and effectively become invincible by simply parrying and blocking everything, waiting for your opponent to wear himself out.
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