Xavier2

And the dicussion is on. I suppose as long as we keep things about the source material (KOTOR and TOTJ, in this case) and not about ourselves i suppose we are within the forum rules. Darth Primus is entitled to his opinion and to express it freely as do we. For me this thread has always been more about Tales of the Jedi rather than about KOTOR really. I haven't read the entire series previous to this post, but this discussion estimulated my curiosity. I went on and bought the STAR WARS: OMNIBUS volumes 1 and 2. So far i was able to read through the Rise and Fall of the Sith, The Beast Wars in Onderon and the Tale of Nomi Sunrider. Sticking to my point that this trhead is about the value of TOTJ over KOTOR regarding its inovative storyteling and aesthetics. I will elaborate on my thoughts about TOTJ (my thoughts i insist. Clearly Darth Primus thinks otherwise). First and foremost i haven't found a single idea both in soryline and in aesthetics that directly conflicts TOTJ and KOTOR timeline, besides the design of the ships in The Rise and Fall of the Sith Empire. Personally i think the design in this particular series is dreadfull. It is a weird mix of Stargate: the Movie ideas and Conan, the Barbarian by John Buscema. There are some strange thechnology based on crystals and Ships that need to be hold by ropes apon landing. There is one Jedi Master who is just a Shellfish in a tank, which seemed to me more of a Green Lantern Corps idea raher than a SW one. Lightsabers have an external battery hold in the Jedi Waist (this design was depicted in the recent timeline video in the TOR website. Showing that Bioware is mindfull of the cannon) In terms of storyline it is pretty weak. Naga Sadow is supposed to be the main vilain of the series, able to destroy an entire Star System but he is defeated by one of the most nonsense plot twists i have ever seen, perpetrated by one of the weakest characters ever created in Star Wars Universe, Gav Daragon (there is a curious discussion going in TOR forums about how Gav may be the True Sith Emperor in TOR timeline LOL). The Beast Wars in Onderon is just a bit better. I couldn't find anything in there that directly conflicts with KOTOR, as if KOTOR was aiming in a storyline and aesthetic more related to the prequels. There is a Jedi Master with apprentices (Master Arca and Ulic), the Jedi Master is called "Master". They wear robes or capes (Master Arca resembles the one with the paldrons from KOTOR). Ulic-Qel Droma (the lead character) ship has a catch name, Nebulon Ranger, in the tradition of Millenium Falcon and Ebon Hawk. There isnt a mention of a Jedi Council but there is no deny either. The relations between Jedi resembled to me the one of the Green Lanterns, which brings the idea of a higher council ruling it all. The Beast Wars series has one of the worst paces in comics. It reminded me that Image Comics aesthetics, all about splash pages and no plot, no rhythm, no character development. The tale of Nomi Sunrider scalates the ladder a little bit. The design is very similar in tone with SW universe. Some species depicted there were used in KOTOR 1 and 2. There is a Hutt crime lord with a gang composed of Weequays, Nikto's and Baradas much like the original movies and i couldn't find any lack of harmony with KOTOR, except the fact that Nomi's was married to a Jedi. All things considered and weighted i now more than before believe that if it would be fair to compare an interactive entertainement as KOTOR with a Comic Book, as the OP proposes, i would say that KOTOR is far more superior than it's predecessors without neglecting too much the continuitu stablished in the comics, with the exception of the things that made no sense in a SW universe.

Well you raised the argument of ancient technology. If there isn't a standard reference then your point of view could be as far fetched as any. They can build Insect like Starships with crystals controling it and they couldn't come up with a simple lamp? You clearly have great fellings about TOTJ as most of us do for KOTOR. The game frustated your expectations regarding aesthetics and lore and as much we find justifications and arguments to defend KOTOR you may find yours to slander it. It seems crystal (oh no...) clear that TOTJ, not KOTOR is at trial here since the elements that enthusiast you the most have been discarded from continuity. Were those concepts and ideas that good and inovative? I don't think so simply put. Some of it's ideas were ripped from other franchises, others didn't felt like SW and a couple of others were just bad (Master Ooroo, a Brain Jedi? Jedi Order is the Green Lantern Corps now?)

Yes it is a cliché, but not a Star Wars cliché. One could say technology based on crystals would be far more advanced than the one based on circuits which is the base technology for the Star Wars universe in 4.000 years previous. I remember a panel in TOTJ where Naga Sadow stares at a pool of water/liquid and actually sees what is happening in another chamber. It doesn't feel very ancient to me regarding SW timeline. Perhaps the Stargate hype inspired the comic authors to create a diversion in SW universe.

We cannot be all certain about everything regarding TOR. It hasn't been launched yet. Nevertheless, i remember seeing a light trooper uniform with a cap that is quite diferent of any previous design and also (because of the Black and White colors) reminiscent of the OT at he same time.

Ok, we agree on that TOTJ is not Stargate: Atlantis. It is Stargate the Movie which lauched in 1994. It is also Superman with technology and starship controls based on...Crystals...So very creative it is. TOTJ may be a lot of things, but Star Wars it barely is. To be honest i think that Bioware has and is being very respectful with the source material. They kept a lot of the plot characters and twists like Naga Sadow, Ludo Kresh, Korriban, Exar Kun, etc. Just they got rid of the Stargate stuff, or the things that didn't make sense in a Star Wars universe.

TOTJ is not SW it is StarGate: Atlantis with all those egiptian like props.

I get the technology argument, but in other science fictions technology always get to a point where it can't move further until every few million years evolution leaps fall. It is conceivable that once you gain the ability to hyperdrive, Shape a beam of light into a swordblade and fire laser shots, it probably wouldn't change that much in 4.000 years. The design though is expected to change. That part i have to recognize regarding the ships, vehicles and city landscape. Taris is pretty much Coruscant in the Attack of the Clones. Ebon Hawk is a rip off from the Millenium Falcon. Swoops and speeders are pretty much the same. The clothes and uniforms though have diferent inspirations. Czerka uniforms look Star Trek. Sith armor don't recolect me of anything too much Star Wars. They don't look like Stormtroopers at all. The Dark Jedi wear a grey/black uniform with hood and mask that doesnt relate directly to anything from the movies. Jedi Robes also look nothing like the movies, except they are made of cloth, which is expected from any nimble melee fighter. Even the Mandalorian armor doesnt look that much like Boba or Jango Fett, except for the thick visor in their helmets and that is a trademark that could very well persisted for 4.000 years.

Well in any case, i ordered TOTJ v1 and v2. I don't remember that comics having such an impact on me as it obviously did on you, but if it was so relevant that you can quote it's lore to the extent of your posts here then i say it is worth a second look. Regarding the fact that Lucasarts emulates the movies, i think that is preciselly the point both comercial and artistic. Doing something diferent with previous stablished material and lore is not a task for simple mortals...Sometimes it works, sometimes not. The darker tone in Frank Miller Daredevil worked for Marvel Comics, but let's face it the character wasn't all that stablished previously. The marriage of Spiderman always had mixed feelings among fans of Marvel Comics to the point they erased it entirelly making a big mess out of the continuity. Star Wars for that matter, has some core elements depicted in the movies. Take that out and it may as well be something else entirelly. Than why bother calling it Star Wars? Don't take me wrong. Sometimes George Lucas does crap (midiclhoreans anyone?) but what i like in Star Wars is in the movies and tbh that IS what i expect to see in other medias. But that's me. I am known to make mods that emulate the movies in KOTOR...

There wasn't a poll but cannon was changed after KOTOR succeded. I think KOTOR developers followed the movies tone closer, likely aiming that wider audience from the get go. Also, i do believe some elements of Star Wars can't be translated properly to comics. Star Wars is a very cinetic type of story and quite a few SW comics fail to emulate that apeal (although just like every other comic around, some have very good artists behind them that accomplish that). Games on the other hand can do it easily.

The thread is called: "Why I Hate KotOR and TOR". KOTOR being one of the most beloved sources of Star Wars content ever it (the thread) is expected to flame a few of the fans. I can't argue with the OP about the lore in TOTJ versus KOTOR. At least not to the extent some of the posts here. I can argue about my opinion on it though and i think the cannon has been stablished towards KOTOR story arc because it has a superior value both artistic and comercial. Everyone involved in the production of Star Wars content simply recognized KOTOR lore had a bigger impact in SW audience than TOTJ. This forum very existence almost a decade after the release of KOTOR is proof enough. I believe it is so because SW is made for a kind of media that games do a good job adapting but comics often fails to emulate. TOTJ made an effort to create something new but the audience pointed the otherside. Perhaps someone should create a thread called "Why I Love KotOR and TOR" to counterargument the OP...

Absolutely true. Thats the unsolvable problem with Lucasarts. On one hand they are known to give a lot of creative liberty to the creators who expand their universe. On the other hand the movies are the foundation of Star Wars Lore. Combine the two and its bound to be continuity problems. In the end, IMHO, anything that comes directly from George Lucas is the ultimate source of Star Wars Lore. You can't blame Bioware for sticking with that rule of thumb, regardless of their personal feelings on the comics material.