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Solo Saber Nerfed Thread


dyehead
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/me flips through response cards

 

Ah, this'll do:

 

"Seriously, you shouldn't tell other people what to do. You are in no position of power anywhere, which is probably why you take your aggression out on people in forums."

 

Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

 

Pnut, thank you for your input, I'm glad someone else has noticed the things I'm talking about.

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Originally posted by the weiner dog!

The "wtf, that landed?" factor is ghoul2 related.

 

The two jk2/ja modders I have spoken to recently both seem 100% convinced on that based on their knowledge of the build from the previous game and the little change in the code in this one.

 

The special 25 force penalty is just plain silly.

 

I know it's there so "people don't spam moves" (this is the typical newbie argument in favor of this) but when you have weaker sabers to begin with and erratic hit detection, it's kind of overkill don't you think?

 

The only time I've found the Kata to be of any use is when I play on servers that have the regen time lowered to 0 and I am able to do them every other second due to the fast regen rate.

 

In a server with a default regen of 200 doing one is pure suicide unless you are playing a "how do I put colors in my name?" type of player.

You may be right about the technical stuff, I haven't looked at the code myself.

 

But I don't feel I have to apologize for having fun playing in JA MP. Competative players can keep calling me a newb and saying my opinions don't matter or whatever for being happy with the game I bought, I can take the constant flames. There are things I would like to see too, like upped saber damage, but overall I am happy with JA. Maybe I'm playing with lots of lesser players, who knows? But if competative players are going to look down on me because I am having fun, so be it.

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Originally posted by Prime

You may be right about the technical stuff, I haven't looked at the code myself.

 

But I don't feel I have to apologize for having fun playing in JA MP. Competative players can keep calling me a newb and saying my opinions don't matter or whatever for being happy with the game I bought, I can take the constant flames. There are things I would like to see too, like upped saber damage, but overall I am happy with JA. Maybe I'm playing with lots of lesser players, who knows? But if competative players are going to look down on me because I am having fun, so be it.

 

 

Prime I personally don't look at people as "noobs" until they start telling me how to play something they do not even have a clue about.

 

You said you know little about kick mechanics and ff/so CTF, so you asked for us to clarify.

 

That I respect, as do the rest of us.

 

Al makes the same "I don’t play this" comment then proceeds to lecture us on game play that he does not even partake in.

 

That no one respects, and hence when he continues doing it over and over we start to lash out at him.

 

 

 

And if you are having fun, great, I'm glad you enjoy the game.

 

But really can you honestly say putting in a few *toggle cvars is going to ruin your fun?

 

Most casual players and competitive players never even met in Jedi Outcast.

 

The learning curve on our servers was frustrating for the average Joe so they avoided ours.

 

We could never figure out why people just stood around chatting in their servers so we avoided them (for the most part) as well.

 

 

And really let's be frank, do we have to drive player after player out of this game until it's only the "die hard star wars fan who will buy anything put in front of them" left?

 

That is the direction this is going in.

 

You guys all remember how bad JK2 got in the last year, it was almost impossible to find a server that actually let you play the game and not punish/ban/kick/sleep people because they did not RPG or w/e you want to call it.

 

 

Drive an entire faction of "screw the RPG crap, let's play this damn game!" players from this community and it just gets closer and closer to that reality.

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The thing i've noticed while using single sabers, is that you tend to get deflected alot more. As in, you swing, sabers touch, and your guy swings his arm out as if to do a disco move or balance himself. Which conpletly leaves you open to attacks. I've almost *never* had this happen using the other sabers. Also, since i use Twin sabers alot, i've notice that at various points in the kata (Where they spin around you) You are invincible to dammage. I've had people roll in and stab me, DFA me, lunge me, etc, and not takken 1 point of dmg. I've found its usually at the beginning of the animation.

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I've noticed that too about the sinlge saber. I've also noticed that single saber seems to lose it's saber the most. Even more often than twin sabers, which I find odd as you'd think the guy with both hands on one saber would have a better grip and control than the guy with one hand on a saber.

 

I mostly play duel/power duel and I've noticed that I rely a lot more on force draining moves with the single saber (roll and stab, kata, etc) than I have to when using twin or dual sabers.

 

The sabers themselves are mostly balanced, just a bit of tweaking needed here and there. I'd like to see the "grip" on your saber be increased for single saber, and I'd like to see a cost reduction on the normal special moves for it, but aside from that I like it.

 

The developers have said for a while that while that while the three saber types are balanced (dual sabers, doule-saber, single saber) the single saber users are going to have it a bit more challenging to be as good. Basically, with the twin/dual sabers and double saber you can get away with mashing the keys a bit more. Where as with the single saber you need to use your strikes when best needed.

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Thanks for that Delirium...

 

part of my point was that I know how to aim a saber, I know how to strike at an open spot. The thing is, when I do, (with red stance) I do little or no damage. But even if I'm in blue stance just standing there, the dual sabers or light staff users can just come in and spam attack on me and kill me almost instantly.

 

And to Vegeta, the gameplay is much different, you're playing against PEOPLE, not computers :)

 

Plus, red slash is wayyyy faster in SP than in MP.

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You must keep in mind that single saber, dual and staff must be all at the same level. They tuned down red stance to balance the gameplay.

 

You have to play the game for more than month to make a reasonable and constructive critic.

 

I would prefer more deadly swings (one or two hit kills with red and specials) but well maybe Raven tried to introduce a new kind of gameplay.

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Well, by some people's logic, every saber move should do the exact same amount of damage (instantly fatal).

 

There is also no logical reason why swinging the saber slower (Red Stance) should do more damage.

 

So in the end, you have to make an entirely different game...

 

Is that what you guys really want?

 

 

I think they did a fine job of sacrificing "realism" (in universe) in favor of game balance and fun.

 

I can't comment on the single saber in MP so much because I honestly haven't even used it that often. I've mainly been playing with Dual, Saberstaff or using Guns and Force. But when I do, I'm sure I'll notice that people are just getting carried away calling it "useless" because it's different. That's usually what happens, sorry to say...

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True, Kurgan, but the way that Raven has designed it, they distribute damage by speed of slash. Obviously the slower moves should do more damage, because you're investing more time in it, and it needs to be more carefully planned.

 

As it is, moves with the light staff and dual sabers do way more damage and go through defenses more than a red slash.

 

No one has really commented on my DFA point, how it's nearly impossible to hit it now, and when you do, it does practically no damage. You used to be able to take more time to aim it (due to the way that it was actually executed), but now you need to pretty much be running at your target, hope he's standing still, and then execute the move. I probably haven't mastered it yet, but I can get it off about 80% of the time to the location that I want it, 10% of the time somewhere near it, and 10% of the time it just doesn't execute properly. I'm not sure that I like the fact that the same keystrokes do different moves for all the different saber types.

 

Anyway, to make a long story short, in my opinion, red slash should do the most damage out of any normal slash, and I mean by far.

 

What advantage does someone who has 1 saber have in a saber lock with someone with dual sabers? Nothing, they're dead.

 

If I quantified bonuses with sabers into points, e.g. specials etc and how much they would be worth to a player, single saber would end up on the bottom.

 

I have never played weiner dog, but I played a lot of NF SO duels in my JO days, and I remember playing break a few times. He was really good, but he never totally whooped me, it was always close..

 

I did get banned from the jedi academy for whooping on the jedi masters, though.. that was funny :)

 

Anyway, point is, I know how to use a saber, fairly well at that. I may be out of practice, but I know when I take 4 swipes at someone with the red saber and they haven't healed, drained, or team healed, and it takes a 5th blow to kill them... that something is wrong. Because that person will finally get in close enough to me with a dual saber, take one swing at me, and take me from 100/25 to dead.

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Well i have noticed in my tinkerings...

1) single saber should be brought inline with the other new sabers..

 

2) dual sabers require little to no skill to perform amazing feats of damage (we call them cheese sticks)

 

3)saberstaff while fun and nice to play with have some flaws as far as damage goes as well

 

4) dual sabers have too high of a defense even while swinging.. and there is no damage tradeoff there (no real combo system either) basicly all one has to do is hold button 1 down and press a direction and unless the person they are facing knows thier stuff the dual saberist will win 95% of the time because they cant be hit.. whats more is the rediculous range that the dual sabers have.. no joke i have blocked a wild swing at what i suppose would be 20 feet away in scale of the game (pretty bad)

 

5) saberstaffs combos are great but what about the single saber on the staff.. no specials?

 

6) seems to me that both the dfa of red and yellow never land even when the person is right infront of you non moving (this is truth here these moves were once good in JO they suck in JA worthless..

 

7) i think force costs of the more destructive moves should be higher ie: butterfly and twirls and katas.. these moves will kill you in 1 hit but in the case of butterflies its only one force block 25 points for an either insta kill or a very debilitating blow that decides the game if one is caught in the damage path.. i think all these moves should be moved up 25 force points for the staff and dual sabers

 

8) kick is buggy.. sometimes i can kick someone and instantly kill them no matter how much life they have

 

9) lower the defences of dual sabers.. look even the almighty darthvader had a problem weilding two sabers.. i understand its supposed to reflect your skill in saber mastery or whatnot.. but it should really be more of a finesse weapon scheme not something that you have to use a staff or red stance in single saber to hit them

 

I play with saberstaff and have gotten good at the combos with it.. while not as devastating as the dual sabers basic attacks it does pack a punch.. damage needs to go down a hair same with dual sabers which needs to go down a bunch more.. remember it is blue stance that the style is based from..

 

i would like to see a combo system implemented for the dual sabers too (if there is one i havent seen it yet and i have tried lol)

 

basicly the staff and dual sabers are supposed to be rare.. in multiplayer and in single player everyone has em.. make it more difficult to use these sabers by nerfing the damage on em.. however.. allow for combo strikes that can add up damage totals.. staff has this somewhat but again its no where near what it should be..

 

basicly what im tryin to say is instead of people holding down a button and then going left and right to win duels they will be forced to either pick up a single saber or.. learn a combo system for the new stuff so that its not the noobie choice weapon

 

if single sabers were more inline with the newer stuff id use the single sabers every time..

 

one last thing for weapons as clumsy as a staff and 2 swords they sure do swing awfully fast which kinda kills the single saberist because of the stance issues and not being able to land hits unless they use red stance..

maybe make single sabers a lil faster per stance or slow the new stuff down.. in close quarters i would think that the single saber would be the better weapon just using logic here..

 

i mean i could be wrong but if i were fighting someone with a baseball bat against someone with two baseball bats in each hand in a very enclosed space.. that dood would have his head caved in before long unless he was very very good (combo system)

 

anyway those are my thoughts...

sorry bout the bad grammar it is 3 am im tired night all

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Well... i dunno if I agree with Al on most things...but I sure agree with him in anything related to whinning for patches...even if it's things I want in... for instance yeah I want beefed up saber... except I like the game anyway and I can always set up my own server and beef them um myself with cvars.

 

To my knowledge, whinning for patches was never a good thing. No one can say Raven doesn't care. They helped me start modeling for JO, the answer forum question to help players, they even made the mistake of being all too nice to listen to some whinners and put out their greatest mistake called 1.03. The way I see it, 1.04 was just re-sealing pandora's box. And if I was them... I would dare not open it again.

 

On the "We want kick back" thread ppl (weinerdog i think) was asking the ppl agaisnt kick comming back for solutions... I provided the cvar solution... no comment was made on that... I took that as solutions dont really matter... the begging for an answer was just sand in the wind... you dont want alternative solutions... you want kick back period.

 

I sometimes play solo mp miode to practice moves. I tried saberdamage scale factor 5 and it's a sure kill within 1 to 3 hits...sometimes more depending on how it hits, what move you are doing,what saber you are playing with and how much health and shield the opponent has.

 

Duels can become really short yes... but it also can go the other way around. Think of FFA system and a Last Man Standing system... in which type are you most afraid to be fragged and because of that you try to be more careful and possibly...more skillful. "Fear is the Path to the Dark Side"...in gamming terms... "Fear of getting fragged makes you play with your brains...thinking before you act". But I dont expect nor do I want to sell my style of playing to you...it's not my place to do so. But I was just pointing out an alternative way. Something that does not require a Raven patch.

 

Regarding usefulness of the tricks...Prime said it all. Timming is everything. So some bloke does the twin saber barrier on duel vs me... I roll back out of reach, then it's it's almost over I roll forward and do the stab move... bad for him. But a twin saber user gets ganged by the opposing team and does the barrier... he will score some in the middle of the confusion.

 

I'm just pointing out examples ppl. My advice..explore. And If you happen to know what Im talking about already, then you can only enjoy argueing or simply want to turn this from a JA standalone game into a JO mod.

 

As a final note: I'm not flamming nor am i telling you what to do.. I'm simply throwing a few examples and yes I do fear the consequences of a premature patch. Since everyone would enjoy diferent things it's impossible to please everyone and this type of post will always be present im afraid... but that's US not Raven... and putting myself on Raven's shoes once again I would trust proffesional oppinions that (at least in theory) are not clouded by personal POV's of how the game should be.

 

Cheers.

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Originally posted by dyehead

This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing

 

Anyone notice anything similar to this? I'd love to know if I'm the only one who thinks that the sabers are a bit out of balance.

 

-=DyeHead

 

Speedo Al wrote:

 

"Seriously, you should stop asking Raven to make JA into JO. I don't even know why you bought the darn thing, you're just like Jimmy Stewart in Vertigo, trying to mould a perfectly good looking wench (game) into the image of your dead lover. (JO.)"

 

 

 

 

 

Read the first post in the thread Al. "This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing". Nowhere in this thread has he asked for a change of anything. Have a sip of tea, learn to read more carefully, and be quiet for once.

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I don't see how weilding two sabers shows 'finnese'. I would think its because your not good enough to beat someone with a single saber. But thats just me...

I think a single saber should do much more damage (especially red swings). You get people stood spamming duel sabers, you can give them two downwards hacks, but they still don't die. They just put speed on and follow you, spamming random swings.

 

Just things i noticed/ think should be fixed:

 

Swinging a saber doesn't seem to slow you down any more.

 

God knows why rolling was nurfed. Its pointless now. It doesn't speed you up and it doesn't move you enough to dodge a saber swing.

 

Duel and staff have no combo limit. I think they should have a three combo limit like red stance or a 4 combo limit. At least something to stop a constant spamming attack.

 

I think duel sabers should be powerful, but have weak defence.

 

Staff be less powerful, but have a good defence.

 

Single saber even defence and attack.

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In duels I find single saber to be under powered. In one normal hit (no specials) I can be killed by a dual or staff user. I wish single would get an increase in damage by 10-15 pts per swing for yellow and blue.

 

In FFA single can hold its own though. I have beaten many staff and dual wielders with single. Of course it was FF FFA and the duel was NF so that made a difference.

 

I think duel is really the only gametype is peril. In siege you don't spend alot of time dueling and in CTF you don't sit around challenging people. I wish all gametypes could be balanced but that may not happen. I have fun in FFA siege and CTF though so I can be content with 3 gametypes.

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Originally posted by the weiner dog!

But really can you honestly say putting in a few *toggle cvars is going to ruin your fun?

I don't have a problem with CVAR control over kicks. Personally I don't want to play with kicks in the same form as JO. So I'd like servers with kick enabled to be clearly marked in the browser screen with a little icon or something. Then I can avoid those servers outright if I want, and not have to join to find out if it is set, or search through the server information window. This was one of the big problems I had with some mod servers. I didn't like the double saber in JO, so I wanted to avoid those servers, but I usually didn't find out they were enabled until I went on the server.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

Most casual players and competitive players never even met in Jedi Outcast.

Point taken. Since I played on public servers and did consistently well, I just assumed that the really good players just played somewhere else. I know there were lots of players out better than me, but for the most part I didn't seem to run into too many, since where I was playing I was one of the best players.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

We could never figure out why people just stood around chatting in their servers so we avoided them (for the most part) as well.

I gave up trying to figure that out a long time ago :)

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

And really let's be frank, do we have to drive player after player out of this game until it's only the "die hard star wars fan who will buy anything put in front of them" left?

I do not want to drive anyone out. But there are lots of people who are defending the competative player position, and I feel I need to defend the "casual player" position so that our desires are heard too. I feel that the way I want to play is just as important as anyone else's.

 

Originally posted by the weiner dog!

You guys all remember how bad JK2 got in the last year, it was almost impossible to find a server that actually let you play the game and not punish/ban/kick/sleep people because they did not RPG or w/e you want to call it.

I remember all to well.
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Originally posted by dyehead

Anyone else see him missing the point? Heh...

 

How is a light saber damaging in one form, but not another?

 

Supposedly made of the same thing, no?

 

Imagine you had one blaster rifle, and your friend had another blaster, they were the same blaster, but his did more damage.

 

Get the point?

It is possible for one blaster rifle do more damage than the other even though they both start out with initially same energy. Perhaps, the environment and time itself degrades the blaster's laser or energy projectile.

 

Concerning light sabers, let say there are things that can be like a light saber. Some may as well be more damage inflicting, can cut through steel faster than the other at a quicker pace. Depending on how much energy is radiating in the saber.

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Read the first post in the thread Al. "This thread is designed to form a consensus of what people are noticing". Nowhere in this thread has he asked for a change of anything. Have a sip of tea, learn to read more carefully, and be quiet for once.
How immature and patronising. What a shame. :(

 

Dyehead's intent is clear from all his posts. This thread is designed to galvanise more whiner support for a premature patch. If you can't see that (which of course you can, you're merely dishonest to yourself and everyone else as well :D ) then you're the one that needs to learn to read more carefully.

 

Bloodriot, good post. Premature patching is historically bad for any game it afflicts.

 

Finally, one of the reasons there were so many RPGing fools in servers all over the world was because the bite was taken out of the game by 1.03. A premature patch. I certainly noticed an upcurve in the number of RPGers after the ill-advised 1.03, and a downcurve in serious players. Many good, skilled players left the game because of whiners lobbying for a premature patch.

 

Take heed.

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