Vsync Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Ok, don't know if anyone complained about this, but JKA bot support is really bad. I mean the bots go back and forth and from side to side. I thought I was at a wedding watching the electric slide (yes bots too can be Soul Train dancers). They also jump around alot when you load a map without bot paths, like forest sanctuary. Then in other maps when you spawn vehicles or maps that have vehicles like kotor_flight_school they jump in and out of the vehicles without moving. This game has a lot of potential, but I feel sorry for those without broadband access because if they want to play offline the bot support is terrible. What they need is to use the same AI path nodes as the singleplayer enemies also they need a bot editor like unreal tournament where you could make your own bots (change name, skin, favorite weapon) and give them attributes like making them snipers or campers. Anyway hope I didn't complain too much, but its sad to see a game with potential start off bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 The fact that bots "jump around" in Siege or in addon maps is because the people who made those maps did not add in "bot routes" (waypoints) for the bots. In the case of Siege, that is Raven's fault, they didn't have time to finish them up, and hopefully that will get added in a patch or something. The third party maps are NOT Raven's fault, because they had nothing to do with those maps. The info on making bot routes has been out for JK2 for a long time, so it's up to the map maker to do that right. I agree though, the bots on Vjun MP are terrible. They get stuck on corners or run around in small circles or run in place at the bottom near the foggy pit. For an example of GOOD bot behavior, check out the JK2 map FFA_Bespin (Pcgamemods has a few conversions of it for JA). The bots on that map are excellent and the most challenging of any map I've seen in JK2 or JA. If JA could be brought up to the FFA_Bespin JK2 standard, they would be most impressive and useful for training, rather than cannon fodder and laughs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StormHammer Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan For an example of GOOD bot behavior, check out the JK2 map FFA_Bespin (Pcgamemods has a few conversions of it for JA). The bots on that map are excellent and the most challenging of any map I've seen in JK2 or JA. If JA could be brought up to the FFA_Bespin JK2 standard, they would be most impressive and useful for training, rather than cannon fodder and laughs. I wholeheartedly agree. And personally I don't think the FFA maps are quite as good as those in JO anyway. They seem a bit too 'loose', and whenever I'm on a server, you find most players in just a few places on those maps. The gameflow isn't as tight as in JO...which may be part of the reason for bots getting 'stuck' if no one happens to come by their position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rut-wa jodar Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I know I have said this many times but when dueling against bots it`s extremely difficult to win a saberlock. It seems like they have changed the saberlock system when it comes to bots. BTW ! CTF is terrible against bots they get stuck on lifts. At least in JO the AI was playable in multiple game modes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amidala from Chop Shop Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Originally posted by Vsync ... also they need a bot editor like unreal tournament where you could make your own bots (change name, skin, favorite weapon) and give them attributes like making them snipers or campers. You can do all that now. There is a tutorial at the end of this thread: http://www.jediservers.com/forums/thread-view.asp?threadid=23&posts=20 My servers have always had customized bots, and you can make them for yourself if you like playing against them on a home server. My bots are enhanced and are stronger at skill level 1 than the strongest stock bots are at skill level 5 (Jedi Master). They help even out the teams in CTF if there are few humans, and they usually end up scoring in the middle, not nearly as good as a good human, but as someone said recently, "that bot is better than a lot of newbs". At least their bot routes allow them to know what to do with the flag, unlike a lot of CTF newbies! I also gave them fun names like The Dominatrix Reloaded (Tavion skin), Hugh Jass, Oliver Clothesoff, and Phillip Uranus. They talk trash and whine just like human players, and they fool a suprising number of people. Yesterday a human was yelling at two of his (bot) teammates to quit running around and go get their flag back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 The other thing we need are bot "orders" (giving orders to bots on your team). This was a feature present in Q3A. You could tell them to defend, cover you, camp a location, roam free, attack the enemy flag base, etc. Is this in JKA somewhere and I'm just missing it? JKA has so much potential.. if the bots were sorted out, it would be so much better. Sounds interesting Amidala... ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
|GG|Carl Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I gotta say that bots in JA are at least harder than the ones in JO. But that was a bit off-topic... I also made a bot... "|GG|Bot"... Everyone thinks he's a clan-mate of mine or something. He's very smart, and also talks a lot of trash. But people always calls him "n00b" and "lamer". But he owns them all:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 Heh, yeah - I find it hilarious when people are whining about "noobs" and "lamers" when I have a few bots on my server that happen to do something dishonourable like use lightning etc. There should be bots on every server. Might make people realize how stupid all those "rules" are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 I disagree, I found the JK2 bots much harder... maybe if the bugs with the bots getting stuck or running in circles, or "a$$ fighting" (without bothering to ever use backstab) they would seem harder... I play them on level 5, though I hear some people are having better luck with custom bots. When that JK Runner program supports JA I'm going to get that and give it a whirl.... sounds cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nabroc Posted October 7, 2003 Share Posted October 7, 2003 The SP NPC's are ok, but the MP bots are hilarious and I'm not talking complex maps like siege, unsupported 3rd party maps or even something like FFA: Prior to going online the 1st time I thought it would be a good idea to get some more practice in and started a duel map with no force (rancor pit - now there's a simple map) and made the 'mistake' to select 3 bots on server startup, which placed me on the last spot in the line for the duels. The 1st fight was over fairly fast, but on the 2nd one the bots ran around the little map for 5min+ without so much as even crossing sabers once (they just ran around in circles)! Ok, might have been an anormality I thought, so I restarted the server - same thing and it won't get better by changing duel maps either - one of these days, if I get bored I'll check how long they can manage to run around without a single saber attack. Better to just select a single bot, but that ain't to much fun either, 'cause 3/4 of the time the player needs to chase the bot - it's probably best to just spawn NPC's while in SP mode. The standard MP bots are laking the aggressiveness and target aquisation the SP ones have, waypoints are fine and all, but if they detect an opponent in the range of min 20-30m, the waypoint algorithm should be put aside and an engagement subroutine should take over, currently they have it backwards as following the wapoints somehow seems to be the prime directive. Think I'll check on those customised bots ... On a side note, does anyone know how to spawn NPC's in a SP game with customized force settings (for the NPC's, not the player - I know how to change my own force abilities via cheats)? Are there any console commands or do the NPC/bot settings need to be edited in the files? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-=FB=-Jagged Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 grrrrr... i'm NOT a newb, i'm NOT a newb.... nope. i'm a newb. how'd you get a customizable bot? that sounds really cool, and probably WOULD show people that honor rules are stupid. if nothing else, it'd be fun to tinker with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Nothing will ever beat Jake. Nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mariners2001 Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan The fact that bots "jump around" in Siege or in addon maps is because the people who made those maps did not add in "bot routes" (waypoints) for the bots. Yeah but if you spawn a NPC in one of those maps they move perfectly fine...they at least don't jump around like a madman. My serious question is: Why do the bots have to move in a preset path???? I mean you should be able to mark elevators and weapons and things like that but come on....I mean would it be so tough to make them exactly like SP with free movement/thoughts and all??? This, IMO, is the most frustrating aspect of JKA and it is something I definitely expected them to improve on....but I was mistaken. And I agree 100% on bot commands....I mean even Elite Force 1 had it....Raven did that as well? Is it that hard to do it with a more recent game??? GRrrrrrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razorace Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Well, I remember seeing the team bot commands in the JK2 code but I don't know if they are enabled or not/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 In some of the bot files, like Luke's, there are acknowledgement messages for orders given. So my guess would be that there's a way...I just don't know what that way is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Yeah but if you spawn a NPC in one of those maps they move perfectly fine...they at least don't jump around like a madman. My serious question is: Why do the bots have to move in a preset path???? I mean you should be able to mark elevators and weapons and things like that but come on....I mean would it be so tough to make them exactly like SP with free movement/thoughts and all??? This, IMO, is the most frustrating aspect of JKA and it is something I definitely expected them to improve on....but I was mistaken. Are we talking about the same SP AI that would stand stock still and take occasional shots at you then run away in a straight line when you pull their gun? Or perhaps were you referring to the saber wielding opponents who spend half the fight tossing their sabers (and losing them), taunting, and jumping off cliffs? Not to diss on Raven's skill with AI, but in all I don't think this is really an improvement! And the thing is SP AI don't need to pick up items, they just are supposed to get in your way. Bots are supposed to simulate MP players, meaning they are supposed to run laps around the map collecting gear and getting frags. That's what they're SUPPOSED to be doing anyway... I do hope we get to the bottom of the bot orders mystery, I really think that would help immensley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 The bots act as they do in JA simply because the bot routes are very poorly done and that's why they never steal a flag in CTF and why they get stuck in all the stock MP maps, not just in siege maps. Darth T-bone is by far the best at bot routing maps and anyone who has ever played the maps he has routed know this. KOR Mines and Courtyard! being two great examples. He was concidering routing all the stock JA MP maps from scratch to fix the problems and offering the new .wnt files in a download pack. However, since most players claim they hate fighting bots because they are so easy to beat, there was never any interest in improved bot routes in JO, so he decided not to release his improved .wnt files for JO and now JA because of that. However, If there was enough sincere interest, I am sure he would. As far as giving bots orders.....yes it would be nice and it could probably become reality once the SC for MP is released if someone had enough interest and skill to code it. But due to the majority opinion bots are a waste of time, and the fact that there is no appreciation for vastly improved routing, I doubt that will ever happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Well, there are those without broadband whose only recourse is to fight against bots. Also, servers use bots as filler at times. Then there are those like me that play against bots simply because we suck too. Well...that and bots have no 'honourz!!'. Anyway, I don't see where he might have gotten the idea that such an improvement wouldn't be in demand. People just generally don't talk about playing against bots for some reason or another, but there are plenty out there that do. Those that scream about how easy they are to beat are just more vocal than those that use them. I, at least, would like to have the improved routes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by Luc Solar There should be bots on every server. Might make people realize how stupid all those "rules" are. Now that is the best idea I've heard all day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king yoda Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 why not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by JediLurker Well, there are those without broadband whose only recourse is to fight against bots. Also, servers use bots as filler at times. Then there are those like me that play against bots simply because we suck too. Well...that and bots have no 'honourz!!'. Anyway, I don't see where he might have gotten the idea that such an improvement wouldn't be in demand. People just generally don't talk about playing against bots for some reason or another, but there are plenty out there that do. Those that scream about how easy they are to beat are just more vocal than those that use them. I, at least, would like to have the improved routes. Trust me, I understand, and there are several reasons other than connection that some people prefer to play against bots. I for one won't buy or play any FPS game that does not have them. T-bone and I had a website just for bot resources for JKO but the downloads section was removed due to a total lack of interest. But we still continued improving them as we use the files for our own enjoyment. Maybe an improved botroute pack for release is in order for the near future. I just wish there was a forum just for the discussion of improving bots, botroutes and bot support for models and skins so those of us that play against them could put our heads together and make some improvements in those areas. The question is, even if that became a reality, would that forum actually be used or not? My experience has been that most are of the anti-bot mentality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Same here about not buying games without bot support. I can't speak for others, but I'd be on that forum for sure. We're certainly not the only ones, so perhaps if it actually took shape and word got around, it would generate enough interest to make it worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luc Solar Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 It's much easier to use bots when getting used to the game. I've played more against bots than people because I wanted to experiment with different guns etc. But fighting bots gets boring. Today I tried the different saber styles against bots wanting to see which one was most effective in a cramped FFA-scenario (duel map). I got 50 kills in 3 minutes with the staff. 4 and 5 minutes with 2 sabers and single saber. The best bot got about 10 kills. (saber damage x 2, no force, jedi master level bots) Keeping in mind that I knew/know very little about saber combat, that result is pretty depressive. I wonder what would happen with lesser skilled bots.. My point is that unless you're playing some instagib-mod, bots offer no challenge whatsoever. But on the bright side; they never whine and you don't have to tell them time and again to "stop bowing and attack me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediLurker Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 I agree that as it stands now, bots offer up very little challenge. With some improved routes, some tweaking of their personalities, and so on that might change, though. One can dream. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Kaan Posted October 8, 2003 Share Posted October 8, 2003 Originally posted by JediLurker I agree that as it stands now, bots offer up very little challenge. With some improved routes, some tweaking of their personalities, and so on that might change, though. One can dream. Actually there is a lot that can be tweaked to make them a lot tougher although they will never be the challenge human opponents are. Anyway, on a lighter note... @JediLurker, T-bone and I are working on getting the bot route files finished now. I will submit the new .wnt files as a "Botroute Improvement" pack as soon as they are all done. That's a start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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