Master William Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I don't know what to say, really... I have experience from JO with the single saber, red stance. In JA, it seems that I can kill anyone just like that with a red stance side swing. Just with one little hit. And no matter what they do, my forward heavy slash with red stance just kills them instantly, it's like we might as well throw away the others. Same thing when I was facing an opponent with red stance, no matter how much I try, he just has to red stance side swing. You're all probably gonna say I suck at the game and that I shouldn't complain. Well, think again. I'm the one using single saber all the time, and I find myself killing people awfully often with just a side swing of the red stance. Now, do you agree? Should they decrease the damage a bit or something? Also, when somebody is performing a kata/spinning saber(s), or similar, you can just forward heavy slash them. It's too easy to kill somebody now. And too easy to kill somebody with the red stance. I think it should be decreased just a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crow_Nest Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 No. Red stance is supposed to be like that. 1 slash can -90 sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acdcfanbill Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 nope, if anything i think its underpowered a touch in one area, blocking I cant count the times i can get a clean torso swipe on somone with single red, only its blocked by their staff/dual and i take dmg. there are a few, just a few tweaks needed to balance nf dueling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapNut Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 yep, for a boring wepon, it should do boring dammage. When i do that awsome swing the sabre around my back super fast move(hold mouse 1+back right+right), i want that to be way stronger cos it looks soo cool, ive been killed by one shot from a strong stancer, bloody enoying, while im doing awsome moves with my staff and not hurting him, logically, if u swing the sbre that slowly, it shouldnt hurt as much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sivy Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 i don't think its too strong. with the red stance timing is everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapNut Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 there is no timing, u dont know which way your opponent is gonna move next, unles he's running around u in a perfect circle whiucj never happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Slapnut... dont mean to flame or anything... but that's about the dumbest post i've read lately. Pretty moves dont automatically make them effective. And if you think beautyful acrobatics are logically the most effective.. damn man... then kung fu, karate, aikido ,etc are next to nothing compared to ballet and acrobatic dancing. If i ever get mugged on the street i know now... I'll tango him to death. Mind you that the single saber is not underpowered becasue of the sheer power of the red stance as base fighting style, the other stances are good but mostly as extras to be used at a given time... blue fast swipes for instance if u happen to know your opponent is near death. Staff does about the same ammount of damage as the red stances sometimes and it's faster than red. And like it was said... with red stance timming is everything... you got good damage.. but you gotta learn how to use it first. Tone down red stance and you got an underpowered single saber. and THEN you'll have tons of complaint and these would be valid ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlapNut Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 never, i want my acrobat twirly dancing moves all the way, they look awsome, if i get mugged in the street (even though there are no 'muggings' in perth) then i wouldnt slowly swimg my arm at him, i'd kick him in the head hard and fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 ok i see we are reaching for extremes here and yes i started it.. so ok let's tone this down for a more gamewise reasonable explanation. Single saber my all means is supposed to be weaker..1 blade vs 2 blades being dual or staff. However this is a game so... single saber's disadavantage translates as the only moves that actually do some damage have to be timmed becasue they are slower... ok so it's not realistic..but neither is anything about this game... any slash, slow or fast, strong or light... means an instant deep cauterized cut through any part of the body. Plz compare some facts about all three sabertypes. Dual and Staff have unlimited chained moves... single does not. Staff deals good damage and have the butterfly that most often kills in 1 good hit. Duals have enourmous backslash damage and a quite effective defense. The dual saber twirls can even hit an opponent at the dualist's back. Duals also have a butterfly even though i find it weaker. Single has 2 dfa's but they are only usefull on very few occasions and otherwise leave u totally open for counterattack. Granted single has 3 katas but poorly executed and u are open for counter and most often a sitting duck... i dont recommend Katas in a duel server. only in FFA. Between the faster and practically equal slashes from a staff...vs the good defense and not so poor offense of the dual... i think a slow moving slash that requires good timming should be rewarding. Staff is all about good looking moves and most of them are quite effective.. the only non effective move i happen to find is the backflip slash. Single players have to be smart to win. Also dont forget that ping plays a part here. If you are a bit lagged, then maybe you aren't landing your staff hits as you think u are... maybe in fact.. to the server and lower pinged players you are just grazing them. I only seldom kill with one red slash. I mostly it takes 3 slashes. As I sometimes get hit by a butterfly and get killed instantly or i may just get grazed for 1 hp. It all depends. Bottom line is... i dont believe red stance is overpowered. Also think of it... if with that speed, red was weaker... why would anyone use it at all? It's not about realism.. it's about gameplay and balance. And i say it again.. take away red stance's power and u got an underpowered single saber... just as giving blue stance the current red damage rate would make it uber. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prime Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Red stance is fine the way it is. No need to change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BloodRiot Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 god dammit prime... i wish i could get down to the point in one sentence like you. You are right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Red stance is fine... with the saberstaff I have no problem taking out red stancers who come at me with that horizontal swing. It's all a matter of timing and anticipation. Frankly, my experience so far is that most (not all) of the single saberists I encounter who tend to only use red stance are fairly predictable in how they're going to attack. You just need to find the right people to duel, MW... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Right now, red stance is getting more noticed then the other two with the single saber because yellow and to a lesser extent, blue, are gimped. While yellow and blue are sufficient to take on a single saber user, you have to have a very, very good concept of timing blows in order to use them against dual saber/dual bladed staff users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Single Fast stance has unlimited chain combos... so you're wrong in saying that Single Saber doesn't have unlimited chainable moves... Single's katas are faster and leave you less open to attack than the Dual/Staff katas (note the slow windup for the staff Kata, and the many counters to dual saber barrier). Sure you can't flop forward like a dying fish with singles, but you get the DFA, Yellow DFA and Lunge. Not bad... ; ) And all stances/types have instant kill possible moves. Or at least they do with saberdamagescale 2... I find them all well balanced. The only stance I'm not very good with is Medium. However with practice I'm sure it will be just as useful to me as the others. Right now I use it primarily to confuse opponents who are used to me using Strong or Fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted October 31, 2003 Author Share Posted October 31, 2003 Umm, if you read correctly, I AM the one killing people too easy... Red stance is no problem at all, just swing at them and they'll die easy for sure. I did find a way against red stancers though, today after I posted this thread. With Dual sabers: Turn off one saber. When you run and slash, you slash in a weak and horizontal way. This can easily kill them while they are side swinging. I also found out before I made this thread that Yellow stance with the Staff (when you turn one blade off) or Single Saber is very effective against Red stancers (side swing with yellow stance) You know what, never mind. You're all right, and look at me, I know alot of counters against it. The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings don't mean strong blows. And it just breaks through anything, that's a bit irritating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rad Blackrose Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Kurgan Single Fast stance has unlimited chain combos... so you're wrong in saying that Single Saber doesn't have unlimited chainable moves... Single's katas are faster and leave you less open to attack than the Dual/Staff katas (note the slow windup for the staff Kata, and the many counters to dual saber barrier). Sure you can't flop forward like a dying fish with singles, but you get the DFA, Yellow DFA and Lunge. Not bad... ; ) And all stances/types have instant kill possible moves. Or at least they do with saberdamagescale 2... Only move viable out of the three are the lunge. Everyone has access to the roll stab, the fixed rotation on the undercut does not help, and DFA is practically useless, even with it's modified keypress. I'm not going to comment on the unlimited chainable moves, because I didn't say anything about them earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Sorry MW... misread your first post. It does kinda sound like you're saying you can kill anyone just like that with a red stance side swing. But I see what you meant... And you're all right, too! [that's a little "misreading your post again" joke...] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KaiaSowapit Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Okay, at the risk of opening up the floodgates of exploitation nirvana here's the real problem (as I see it) with the various styles & stances. Saber Staff & Dual Sabers require no more than level one Saber Attack to be 100% effective. That's right... while all you Single Saber fans have been throwing away 14 points to enable red stance, every Staff & Dual fan have had the opportunity to spend those 13 other points on whatever other Force Power(s) they please. That means higher levels of Lightning, Drain, Rage, Absorb, etc. for Dual/Staff users... with absolutely NO loss of offensive power. Heck, with 13 extra points, that's Force Grip with 3 points to spare. That my friends, IMHO is a HUGE imbalance; the three levels of the Force Power "Saber Attack" really ONLY apply to single saber users. (Of course on a server with Force Powers disabled, this is all moot.) That said, personally I do think red stance is somewhat over-powered; more so for its block-defeating ability than anything else (especially when you factor in latency). I also think ALL sabers should be equal in damage, yet Staff/Dual saber users should be penalized with a higher drain on their Force pool when using specials/katas (it seems appropriate to me that staying focused on two blades should be more taxing on a Jedi/Sith's ability to concentrate). I still fail to see the logic in a slowly moving blade being harder to block and doing more damage. Heck if that's the rule, an idle saber should be the most deadly of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpaceButler14 Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I think the damage is good, though a little more blocking ability would be nice so there'd be less hit and run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akshara Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Saber Staff & Dual Sabers require no more than level one Saber Attack to be 100% effective. Hmm... he does have a point there. But you know, I used to only put 1 level into saber offense with my staff (and the rest into full Sight), but noticed when I did that my attacks didn't seem to be as effective - at least I didn't play as well anyway. Could've just been my imagination, but it did seem to be noticeable to me... and not just during saber locks. I too had read on the forums here that staves didn't need Saber Offense points beyond level 1 except for saber locking, but started to doubt that in actual practice and went back to giving it all 3 levels just in case. Whether psychological or not, I do play better with it maxxed out. Call me crazy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Master William The only thing that annoys me is that slow swings don't mean strong blows. And it just breaks through anything, that's a bit irritating. Umm...since when does a slow two handed swing from a freakin beam of light (not a metal blade) not cut someone in half. Single saber is a two handed weapon(for the most part) your swings would cause a great more deal of damage than somebody flailing about with a saber in each hand or a staff with its awkwardness trying to take long hard swings is not feasable. I'm pretty sure a solid beam of light would cut right through just about anything, If you want to be realistic that is. ie: Qui-gonn Ep. 1 melts through a door with out quick fast swing, but cutting through flesh thats different right? :r2d23:eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnArKey Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Single/red is already pretty weak at blocking. Most flailing dual/staff users will break right through and cause massive damage each and every time they come close. Been reduced from 100/100 to dead by nothing more that button mashing very often. You MUST keep your distance. The big red swings don't break through defenses all the time either, far from it. I'd say 50% of the time, maybe. I have counted 5 times in a row I have landed those big swings only to have them deflected for no damage. They aren't uber moves by any means. They just seem that way once you get real good with timing and can land them constantly against opponents that come running into them. I don't even use the chains either. I just use one swing at a time. Why? To me, single is all about getting your hit in, then getting AWAY. If I'm using a chain move, I get hit in between swings constantly. More often, it just does me more harm than my opponent to try and chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syzerian Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 ive had to hit a stationary person 6+ times with the red stance and thats the big swing going right through their body the only reason red is so strong is the game does damage every frame its in ur opponents body so 20 damage can be multiplied over and over in certain places just go in single player and turn the saber animmation down low and u can kill tavion in one hit with blue stance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eniaC Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 Originally posted by Syzerian ive had to hit a stationary person 6+ times with the red stance and thats the big swing going right through their body As I have as well, seems a bit silly huh? (I'm not complaining by any means I love the game how it is don't get me wrong) I just think the statement of red stance doing too much damage is far far from the truth. [maybe it's just my fps(35-80 in MP) or maybe I just wish that my fav. style and stance were better (BS). :r2d23:eniaC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted October 31, 2003 Share Posted October 31, 2003 I've had a guy roll at me with duals, do a roll-stab, and I used red overhead on him. The entire swing hit him, on the side, from head to foot, and he didn't die. It is very rare against a skilled opponent to do a full connection hit like that, it should always kill, it's just stupid looking. My brother was watching and said "What was that?" when it didn't kill him. Pissed me off too because it was CTF. Red is not overpowered. The reason red breaks through defenses is because it is supposed to have more "power" behind it. Ever seen a cannon ball? It moves MUCH more slowly than a bullet, but it is MUCH more powerful, I.E. it has more power behind it. The reason red does more damage is because it stays in the body longer, it's a big sword of plasma or whatever (whatever it is it has to be hot, it cauterizes the wounds). To prove this point, pass your hand through a candle, fast. No pain right? Now hold your hand in the candle for 10 seconds. Which hurt more? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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