babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 What would you like to see for JK4's engine? I personally cast my vote for the Far Cry engine, it looks absolutely stunning, has physics on par with havok 2 and doom 3, and the view distance is a really really nice feature in my oppinion. Can anyone say Ewok Village? http://www.farcry-thegame.com/teaser/images/screen-06.jpg The source engine(Half-Life 2) also looks very nice, but I love the extremely advanced AI that appears to accompany Far Cry, with unscripted AI and idle functions etc, I can just image using binoculars from atop a mountain and seeing storm troopers walking around talking to eachother. http://www.crytek.com for the far cry engine. I don't think source has a website, I couldn't find one on the valve website atleast. There is enough info about it all over the web though. Doom 3 everyone knows about. The Stalker engine looks cool too, but I haven't really heard much about it's engine being licensed out. Cast your vote! Feel free to put forward any other engines, but please, no talking about the quake 3 engine in the game now, whenever someone mentions it, the thread turns into a flame war or something or other. P.S. I don't know if I double posted or not, but if I did I don't think they got the poll option, so sorry for any extra posts! P.P.S. Also, this is mainly for what you would LIKE to see, not what Raven is likely to use, as they are likely to use Id's engine since it is what they have used before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Doom 3 is such a huge leap in the technology that it really can't be compared with anything that is out today. having played an early build of doom 3 (spare the soap box rants, I’m just making a point related to his post) I can honestly say it is jaw dropping and that's not a term I would have slapped on any game that came out since quake 1 (the first true 3d FPS, DOOM was 2.5d if you know what I mean). The enormous leap in technology is obvious, but what really makes it just amazing is for the first time since the old DOOM shareware days, I actually became immersed in the game as if it were a true interactive experience. Half-Life 2 looks great, but no matter how you dress it up, it still feels like a video game. DOOM 3 is truly an interactive horror experience, you will become so engrossed in it due to the level of immersion, that you will jump at your own shadow when you see it, believe it or not. JK4 would simply be amazing on that engine; the level of "realism" that could be achieved would have "it needs to be more movie like" people wetting their pants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samuel Dravis Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 I didn't think Star wars games were supposed to be terrifying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 No obviously, but look at it like this, in DOOM 3 you get the feeling you are "really there". now translate that into fighting a saber battle on the death star with “darth whatever”... In DOOM 3 the level of immersion is so high due to the game engine and what it can do, that you (no joke, I did it, as did the people who I watched play it) will actually duck your head and jump back in your chair when a monster swings a claw at you on the screen. Imagine saber battles like that.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Yeah, that would be very cool. I wonder if they could impliment some sort of system like max payne 1/2 where you can slow down, that would make saber battles really neat, seeing that your opponent is swing at you, so you duck and do a forward stab. I guess that couldn't really be done in MP though, and it wouldn't feel star warsy. I think a large part of the immersive factor is not just in the engine, but a large part in the theme and art work. I remember half life being very immersive, mainly because the enviroments felt so interactive. Max Payne 2 pulls this off for me too, I completed it yesterday and it is a whole lot of fun. The reason JA/JO don't seem to immerse me is they're always too bright, all the colors are so bright and everything doesn't seem dark/dank enough. I think they should make it all a lot darker and dimmer, instead of having bright red/green/yellow everywhere. The only place I want to see those colors are in a saber or a blaster shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 If Raven makes it, it will more than likely use the Doom3 engine, which they are already working on with Quake IV. They have already stated that JA is the most likely the last game they'll do on the Q3 engine. People are already complaining about the Q3 engine, but in another year and a half they'll really be whiney if JK4 would use it. The other likely candidate is the Unreal engine, a build of which is being used for the upcoming Republic Commando FPS (set for release sometime around 2005). So it's up for grabs but I'd say they'll either use a modified Doom3 engine or a build of the Unreal engine (again, comparable to what will be used for Republic Commando). As far as what I would LIKE? That depends. It depends on who does it and what those engines can do. We have yet to see a single game use the Doom3 engine yet (so all we have to base our opinion on is the latest John Carmack interview or video of Doom3). We already know that the Unreal engine is very versatile and capable of some nice things and has had some solid games made on it in the past. It all really depends on the people working on it. Though I would think doing it on an Unreal based build would be easier, considering how long its been around and the already solid lineup of games and developers associated with it. Doom3 is pretty much untested beyond what's being done for two games that aren't out yet (and are both generic FPS's with lots of eye candy). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 The Doom 3 engine is a step ahead of all the other engines...rather than on concentrating on higher polygon models (which is relatively easy to do on older engines anyway, as shown by Jedi Knight II and Jedi Academy), it focuses on the lighting which pays off best. I believe Doom 3 is the first game I've seen where you can watch a light hanging from the ceiling sway back and forth and see realistic shadows being cast by the light which move...it's the moment when you walk around and beneath it watching it and the shadows that you realize it's not using some trick or pre compiled light information...it's doing it in real time. Imagine watching shadows cast by your light saber...that's something you wouldn't see in any of the other engines... Another thing about Doom 3 is the way it calculates everything in real time, rather than compiling a bsp, portal information and light map for use in game. It also means that it can be more precise in figuring out what needs to be drawn and what doesn't...this helps in large open areas. Because of the nature of the game Doom 3, itself, there aren't many large open areas with terrain and stuff...I heard that there is a cutscene at the beginning where your character is in a ship flying above mars, and you can see terrain down below that is so large that enemies appear as dots. Well, anyway...John Carmack, himself, said that he thinks the Doom 3 engine will be used for the next five years, so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurgan Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Graphics are always nice, and the physics engine for the ill-fated Obi-Wan PC was quite impressive (and that was back in 1999!). However funky physics and eye candy aren't everything. The newer the engine the more time it'll take to create all the "Jedi" stuff from scratch in it and get the developers a chance to become familiar. Republic Commando is using a familiar engine and its nearly 2 years away. Then again they may be taking their time so they can release it in time for the theatrical release of Episode III, the last Star Wars movie of George Lucas's career. ; ) [update: I assumed RC was coming out in 2005, but now I'm hearing 2004, if so, I stand corrected, it must be farther along than I thought.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Far Cry will have real time lighting/shadows. Look in the video that says Crytek in the very beginning, in one scene it shows the player shoot a hanging light on the ceiling, and it sways back and forth (looks real), the lighting looks very real. As for polygons, what I think is neat is the fact that a lot of the models in Far Cry are over 250,000 polygons, but the engine lowers the amount to look like the same amount. I think that would help custom created player models, considering polycount is basically not a factor when creating models. I would love to create a 10k poly gun model and just have it look gorgeous Imagine watching shadows cast by your light saber...that's something you wouldn't see in any of the other engines... Of course you would Watch some of the Far Cry videos, the landscapes are MASSIVE. The single player is, I think, one whole map, all based on one island. The entire island looks HUGE. In one of the videos they shoot a rocket at some guys, then back out and they're like a mile away. So cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Found some more screenshots etc... (crytek.com) http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/xisle/1228.jpg I don't know why this engine looks so cool to me lol, although doom 3 appears to have better graphics, I guess I just like all the physics/giant maps and other stuff... Take a look at this: http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/polybump/poly_04.jpg (I think 250.000 means 250,000) Another: http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/polybump/PBPreviewer07.jpg Not quite as good looking as the first, but it does go from 28k to 275... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Well, I don't have a fast connection so, I can't download the movie right now to see, so I'll take your word for it. I notice in the screenshots, however, that the lighting doesn't appear to be consistent...it looks like the characters don't have shadows (at least not cast on the environment), and out side, the lighting doesn't hold up well in the environment either. Doom 3 lights everything the same, so there are no inconsistencies (I remember seeing some Half Life 2 screenshots, with environment shadows going perpendicular to character shadows ). Far Cry does look nice, but the Doom 3 engine still has better tech behind it. Also, the Doom 3 engine's interface is very similar to that of Quake III. In fact, the Doom 3 engine is really a heavily modified Quake III engine...all it's technical stuff has been rewritten, but it works much like Quake III on the surface. There are certainly many features that Raven (and id software for that matter ) have to learn, but it's not like learning an entirely different engine...it's still a familiar system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Well... P.P.S. Also, this is mainly for what you would LIKE to see, not what Raven is likely to use, as they are likely to use Id's engine since it is what they have used before. But, if we are going to argue that point, I'll just point out one thing Renderer: integrates indoor and outdoor technology seamlessly. Offers rendering support for OpenGL & DirectX 8/9, XBox using latest HW features, PS2 and GameCube. PS2, GameCube, and XBox support, doesn't get much better than that I noticed something else on their site: Physics System: supports character inverse kinematics, vehicles, rigid bodies, liquid, rag doll, cloth and soft body effects. The system is integrated with the game and tools. Cloth? Does that mean clothes? Anyone know about this stuff? I'm a modeller so I would love to see clothes in a game, almost no one has made a game with clothing EDIT: Oh: Well, I don't have a fast connection so, I can't download the movie right now to see, so I'll take your word for it. I notice in the screenshots, however, that the lighting doesn't appear to be consistent...it looks like the characters don't have shadows (at least not cast on the environment), and out side, the lighting doesn't hold up well in the environment either. Doom 3 lights everything the same, so there are no inconsistencies (I remember seeing some Half Life 2 screenshots, with environment shadows going perpendicular to character shadows ). Well, I don't really know about the inconsistencies... I've seen some shots with shadows on terrain and some without, so I can only guess maybe some shots are from an earlier version of the game/engine? Edit: Thanks for adding the Unreal engine to my poll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 The Unreal engine is great, best FPS engine out there at the moment. That said, talk to someone who played the DOOM 3 MP demo at quakecon this year. Ask them how D3 compares to the UT engine; they will look at you like you are on drugs. Even Half-Life 2 with it's impressive physics system is still far behind what Carmack pulled off. I totally agree about "eye candy" being just a small part of the game, to be honest, I have not been seriously visually impressed with any games since the original quake brought true 3d gaming to life. I've seen countless games get the "must see to believe graphics" reviews, and once I see them... uhh yeah wow... is generally how I feel. But after seeing DOOM 3 up close and in action, my concept of "immersion" has been totally reassessed. There have been many "baby steps" in the evolution of gaming. When I say baby steps, think quake 1 to UT2003 Then you have revolutionary changes in the industry. Think Pac-man to DOOM. That is how big of a change to the "norm" DOOM 3 is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Have you played half life 2 or far cry or stalker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FK | unnamed Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 I had a chance to play a leaked HL2, but I chose not to bother with it. From the official promotional footage I have seen, it just has done nothing to even spark the slightest bit of interest in me. That far cry game, I've never even heard of that to be honest with you. But looking at this: http://www.farcry-thegame.com/teaser/images/screen-06.jpg Then looking at these: http://www.planetdoom.com/images/screenshots/official/7l.jpg http://www.planetdoom.com/images/screenshots/official/13l.jpg It’s hard to believe anything can top that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Yes, I don't think anything will even come close to matching the level of detail shown off in doom 3, I think that's pretty much a given. The reason I think Far Cry would be better is because of the huge landscapes, and the very low in game poly count meaning it performes very well on low end systems. Can you imagine playing siege on an island that is 8 square KM? That would be wild! Think about hoth, you start outside, then go into echo base, and the maps could be MASSIVE. Look at the infrared vision in some of the videos (it's pretty cool looking for those on 56k), that would port very very well into force sense/seeing, and with smoke grenades implemented it would actually be a very useful force power. Think about making Mind Trick make vision very foggy, as if there were smoke all around you, and seeing would remove that smoke and go to a heat-like vision of players. How about having massive swoop races on Tattooine(sp?), over land scapes as larger than battlefield 1942 maps. Here's some eye candy http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/xisle/1246.jpg http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/xisle/1237.jpg http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/xisle/enemies_on_grass.jpg http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/xisle/1245.jpg EDIT: one more http://www.crytek.com/images/gallery/xisle/zoom_to_helicopter.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master William Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Why are you jumping up and down of joy when you see a game has great graphics on a PC?! 1. You usually have to go buy some ATI RADEON XR!914814 whatever for alot of money. 2. Your computer can handle it, but not very good... I mean look at Doom 3. It's good looking and all, but the chance of your computer being able to run that perfectly smooth as it appears in the screenshots is not so big. So why brag with it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Truthful Liar Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by Master William Why are you jumping up and down of joy when you see a game has great graphics on a PC?! 1. You usually have to go buy some ATI RADEON XR!914814 whatever for alot of money. 2. Your computer can handle it, but not very good... I mean look at Doom 3. It's good looking and all, but the chance of your computer being able to run that perfectly smooth as it appears in the screenshots is not so big. So why brag with it? Hey another Swede on the forums, nice to see one once in a while. As for Doom3, it will most likely end up looking like Q3 on a persons machine if they don't have a high-end computer so the looks can vary alot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tesla Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Republic Commando is due out 2004 BTW. As for these other engines, i have changed my mind and i don't care what engine it is on, as long as it's good then im happy with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Heh, well one could make the argument that engine directly correlates to whether or not it is a good game, but you're right anyway. I still care what engine it is on though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabrobot Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by Master William Why are you jumping up and down of joy when you see a game has great graphics on a PC?! 1. You usually have to go buy some ATI RADEON XR!914814 whatever for alot of money. 2. Your computer can handle it, but not very good... I mean look at Doom 3. It's good looking and all, but the chance of your computer being able to run that perfectly smooth as it appears in the screenshots is not so big. So why brag with it? Well, actually the very early unoptimized not meant for release Doom 3 leak runs surprisingly well. Once the engine is optimized, it should run well (and still look stunning. Oh, and I don't think, even on the lowest settings, it'll look like Quake III. The shadows can't be turned off or turned down, and the polygon counts are about the same as Quake III anyway). Currently id software estimates the minimum system requirements (that can still run the game with stunning detail) as being: 1 GHz processor 256Mb RAM GeForce 2 level graphics card (this card's technology is actually what John Carmack developed the Doom 3 engine towards...I'm not sure if Doom 3 can actually take advantage of newer cards special shader things or shadows things) These are about the same as most games coming out now...like Galaxies or Knights of the Old Republic. I think most people will be able to run Doom 3 at a decent frame rate and still get stunning graphics. Also, the point about graphics not automatically making a good game is true. However, think about all the fancy physics and lighting plus gameplay as good or better as that of Jedi Academy. That's possible on the Doom 3 engine because, interface wise, it's very similar to that of the Quake engines (although there's a hell of a lot more features). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josh22 Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Ok well the only thing I can say on this subject is look at the gameplay and graphics of jedi acadamy.With that said I think any engine would be a VAST improvment imo...lol...later:lsduel: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babywax Posted November 6, 2003 Author Share Posted November 6, 2003 Well, engine has more than just graphics. All of these new engines that I have listed have physics, which can greatly change gameplay, depending on how it is implemented. In half life 2 they have a gravity gun, which utilizes only physics, and apparently blocking off doorways with stuff lying around will be a good tactic. Just imagine having force telikinises (sp?) and throwing stuff around. That would be very fun! Graphics, although not special effects, can change the way the game feels greatly too. Super new engines are not required, although they can help. Half Life 1 had a very good feel to it, check out the diablo 1/2 series (diff. genre though), they don't have great graphics but they really have a unique feel. One thing I don't like about JA is that everything just seems too light, graphically. It isn't dark enough everywhere, it's just too upbeat. It feels out of sync with the movies. Huge islands from far cry would change the gameplay in obvious ways. Doom 3 with it's lighting and shadowing would also affect gameplay, it would make stealth a more viable option if they made it darker. In a game like JA there is very little for stealth besides mind trick. It would add a bit more chance of ambush etc... Graphics can easily change the way the game plays, due to the fact that they are the main way you percieve the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterSidious Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Originally posted by babywax Yeah, that would be very cool. I wonder if they could impliment some sort of system like max payne 1/2 where you can slow down, that would make saber battles really neat, seeing that your opponent is swing at you, so you duck and do a forward stab. I guess that couldn't really be done in MP though, and it wouldn't feel star warsy. I think a large part of the immersive factor is not just in the engine, but a large part in the theme and art work. I remember half life being very immersive, mainly because the enviroments felt so interactive. Max Payne 2 pulls this off for me too, I completed it yesterday and it is a whole lot of fun. The reason JA/JO don't seem to immerse me is they're always too bright, all the colors are so bright and everything doesn't seem dark/dank enough. I think they should make it all a lot darker and dimmer, instead of having bright red/green/yellow everywhere. The only place I want to see those colors are in a saber or a blaster shot I don't know about engines cause I'm not allowed to get hardly any games but actually you can do the "Max Payne" thing when you're about to duel in SP by typing: 1. ~ 2.devmapall 3.enter (return) 4. time scale 0.5 5. enter (return) 6.~ SO, if you want, you can do this already as you will see BTW, if you want a "dark/dank" feeling make a map like that. (Have a map thats huge and has like 5 light entities [lamps] that are 600 intensity really far apart ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsioN Posted November 6, 2003 Share Posted November 6, 2003 Doom 3 would be the obvious choice. Imagine a jedi-horror game. All the lighting looks brilliant, but then you gotta think about "Will my pc be to support such a sophisticated engine?". Of course, that dosne't bother me, my pc's under a year old, but we're not all gonna have new pc's are we? Far Cry looks beautiful. But this would only be chosen if JK was to become a...er..jungle warfare game. Imagine Imperial guerilla attacks in the jungle. HL2 would be a good candidate. But we'll have to wait and see. Same goes to Unreal. They are both well capable of dealing with the style of JK. So why did I choose the Doom 3 engine? Simply because of its obvious ability to create atmospheric, creepy, mysterious areas and at the same time give you an excellent game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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