Jump to content

Home

Religious stuff...


Zavior
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • Replies 61
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Originally posted by rccar328

I say it was the power of God. That's what I believe.

 

I say cite one source of empirical evidence that verifies that a faith healing occurred.

 

I can, however, cite numerous instances in which an otherwise credible mark was duped by a clever con artist. I know a guy with a PhD that recently had his driveway "sealed" with crankcase oil.

 

Bottom line is: if you're willing to believe, you'll see things that don't exist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An interesting read

 

rccar328 (any other witnesses), could you describe to us exactly what happened and what you saw? What did the healer do and say? Did you notice any of his/her body movements?

 

I respect what you believe, but many things can decieve us into believing something that is fallacy. Take magic and illusions for example. There is a plausible and often clever explanation to every magic trick, it is just from the perspective of the unknowledged viewer that it seems "magical" or "miraculous."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by wassup

I respect what you believe, but many things can decieve us into believing something that is fallacy. Take magic and illusions for example. There is a plausible and often clever explanation to every magic trick, it is just from the perspective of the unknowledged viewer that it seems "magical" or "miraculous."

 

Bugger, you posted what I was gonna post.

 

The rock thing: This question isn't a trick, its a basis of faith. Those who are wholly religious will try their damndest to answer it but in the end, all they have is a load of babble and faith.

 

And why hasn't anyone touched the mountains question? Because I don't think anyone here can even ATTEMPT to break it down.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Kain

Can God make 2 mountains without putting a canyon between them?

 

anyone can.

 

if i heap up some sand and declare that this pile of sand are two mountains which are not divided by any space because they are standing "back to back". in that case there cannot be any "canyon" between them.

 

:dozey:

 

..

 

next one, please.

 

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, first of all, what I saw was not a "faith healer" of the vein of those on television.

 

About five years ago, I went on a mission trip to Africa, and I saw two miraculous healings:

 

1. A woman who had been lame for years and could only walk with the assistance of a cane asked us to go into her house and pray over her. We went in and prayed that God would heal her leg. After the prayer, she was able to walk and run without her cane.

 

2. An old man who was blind in one eye asked for prayer. This man only spoke French, so we were speaking to him through an interpreter. He asked us to pray, and asked me to place my hand over his eye.

Before the prayer, the eye was visibly damaged - it was clouded (almost white) with what I think was a cataract. When the prayer was finished, his eye was clear and he could see.

 

I respect what you believe, but many things can decieve us into believing something that is fallacy. Take magic and illusions for example. There is a plausible and often clever explanation to every magic trick, it is just from the perspective of the unknowledged viewer that it seems "magical" or "miraculous."

 

Could these be cons? The first one, possibly, though it would have to be deception on the woman's part, and I do not see why the woman would fake being lame.

The second, though, was no con. The man was obviously blind. The cataract was obvious. And if it was a contact (which no one in the area could have afforded anyway), he would have had no way of removing it with my hand over his eye.

 

I'm not talking about some kind of televangelist preacher who's asking for money in exchange for faith healing, or anything like that. No money changed hands in either of these occasions. They were not highly publicized. No one stood to gain anything out of these occurrences other than the people being healed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by RayJones

if i heap up some sand and declare that this pile of sand are two mountains which are not divided by any space because they are standing "back to back". in that case there cannot be any "canyon" between them

 

If there is no space between the 'mountains' in your scenerio, then their aren't 2 mountains, there is one big mountain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Kain

If there is no space between the 'mountains' in your scenerio, then their aren't 2 mountains, there is one big mountain.

 

really? is it really that, if there is no "space" between two things, they become one thing? or is it that they seem to be one thing?

is one corn of sand really one corn of sand or millions of atoms of oxigen and silicon? or billions of electrons, positrons and neutrons?

it always depends to the point of view..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by SkinWalker

The one-leg-shorter-now-longer con is one of the oldest known. As to the other "miraculous" healings, perhaps Zdawg believes what he saw, but he undoubtedly witnessed some clever scams.

You cant SCAM someone into growing an EYE, it just doesnt happen dude. You can scam someone into making it look as if a leg grows, but What I saw, was real, there is no changing that, and I dont need you to believe it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If there is no notable space between 2 things, then they are one thing. If you can see a seperation without the use of instruments, then it is 2 opposite things. Now omnipotence notwithstanding, God cannot create 2 things without putting a space between them(obviously a 'God' could see the slightest of space, so Omnipotence doesn't stand in this question).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by ZDawg

You cant SCAM someone into growing an EYE, it just doesnt happen dude. You can scam someone into making it look as if a leg grows, but What I saw, was real, there is no changing that, and I dont need you to believe it.

 

Then, no offense, but the chances are, you are either lying, scammed, or mentally affected (please note, I'm not saying "ill") in some way.

 

Stranger events have been faked or hallucinated. People truly believe they've been abducted by aliens. I recently read a documented casestudy of a man who believed, whole-heartedly, that his mother was an imposter when she was standing right in front of him, but when talking on the telephone with her he believed it was her.

 

Most likely, you were scammed, but believe it to be true. I'm betting that the event cannot be independently verified. Belief is a powerful force on the human brain. Tell someone who is a believer of Voodoo that he/she is cursed and will die... and they do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by ZDawg

You cant SCAM someone into growing an EYE, it just doesnt happen dude. You can scam someone into making it look as if a leg grows, but What I saw, was real, there is no changing that, and I dont need you to believe it.

 

I once saw David copperfield make the statue of liberty disappear. I've seen David Blaine do some 'impossible' magic tricks. The key word is tricks. There's a LOT you can do to fool the human mind. It's actually really easy to do, perception can often override reality.

 

My psych professor once told me how he was walking along a path by campus one day and he saw a pipe jutting out of the ground, but instead of a pipe, he saw a perfectly formed miniature cow. And had he not started walking towards it to try and pick it up and finally realized that it was just a pipe, he would have walked away and could swear to this day he saw a miniature cow in the woods next to campus.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by rccar328

Skin [and ET] [are] writing it off as a scam because he can't explain it, and therefore assumes that it isn't true.

 

And I stand by this.

 

rccar328 is attributing it to a genuine "miracle" because he wants to believe it true.

 

There are no instances where faith healing has been independently verified to be true in medical literature aside from psychosomatic effect, otherwise known as placebo effect.

 

There are, however, reams of documented cases of "faith healers" scamming willing believers, taking advantage of their willingness to believe, a ready-state that allows the suggestion of that which is not there.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There are, however, reams of documented cases of "faith healers" scamming willing believers, taking advantage of their willingness to believe, a ready-state that allows the suggestion of that which is not there.

 

But those "reams of documented cases" do not automatically invalidate each and every case. I know what I saw. If the healings were faked, then it was on the part of the people being healed, who had no prior knowledge that we would even be in the area, and had no motive to fake being healed.

 

Just because it hasn't been documented in a medical journal doesn't mean it isn't true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by SkinWalker

There are no instances where faith healing has been independently verified to be true in medical literature aside from psychosomatic effect, otherwise known as placebo effect.

 

We've learned a LOT about this in psychology this semester. They did a test, testing subliminal self-imrpovement tapes. One tape was designed to improve bowling scores, one to improve self-esteem. They took a group who wanted to get better at bowling and gave half of them the bowling tape and half of them the self-esteem tape, and told them that they gave them all the bowling tape.

 

Every single person there improved their bowling scores.

 

 

And you didn't address my point Rccar, my professor SAW a miniature cow in the woods by our school. If he would have just kept walking on he'd have no evidence to the contrary.

 

Think about the miracles you saw, both instances they specifically asked you to come in and pray over them. The guy with the eye asked you to put your hand over his eye? Why would have have you cover it? The same reason a magician asks you to hold your hand over the card he gave you, and then when you turn it up, it isn't the card that he gave you.

 

I would believe in faith healing if it worked all of the time. How come God decides that some people deserve to be healed when they are prayed over? I know plenty of people who've died of cancer no matter HOW much praying was done. No matter how hard I prayed my aunt still died because of her diabetes. Why did that blind man deserve to get his sight back in that eye but my aunt deserved to die?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't get so bent out of shape over faith healing and the fools that believe in it if it weren't for the fact that people have died because of the scams!

 

The Associated Press State & Local Wire

(August 25, 2003)

Newborn dies after parents did not seek medical care

 

Authorities were investigating the death of a newborn who died after her parents for religious reasons did not seek medical treatment for an infection.

 

Rhiana Rose Schmidt was less than two days old when she died Aug. 19 at the home of her parents, who are members of a church that advocates faith healing instead of medical intervention, police said. […]Tom Nation, an elder at the church about 20 miles south of Indianapolis, said the about 150 church members trust in God to cure illnesses.

 

"How many babies die in the hospital every day?" he asked. "I don't feel like doctors ever save a person's life. They think they do, but how do they know?"

 

And this is another tragic story:

 

The Fresno Bee

(October 5, 2003)

Tulare case tests religious freedom Courts generally rule children should receive medical treatment.

 

As Wesley and LaRonda Hamm, members of the General Assembly and Church of the First Born in Tulare, await a court appearance Tuesday on manslaughter charges in the death of their 10-year-old daughter earlier this year, uneasy questions abound and experts disagree over what is right and wrong -- morally, philosophically and legally.

 

Wesley Hamm, 40, and his wife, LaRonda, 42, were arrested Sept. 24 on one charge each of involuntary manslaughter and child abuse or endangerment six months after their daughter Jessica died at the family's home on Cochran Avenue surrounded by family and members of her church.

 

The girl died in the wee hours of March 13 after several days of what her parents described as flu like symptoms.

 

An autopsy by the Tulare County Coroner's Office reported the cause of death as cardio respiratory failure.

 

The Hamms and other members of their church reject modern medicine in favor of faith healing and prayer, putting their health and the health of their children in God's hands.

 

Seth Asser co-wrote a 1998 study published in the journal Pediatrics examining 172 childhood deaths in faith-healing families nationwide between 1975 and 1995. In the study, Asser said a review of records indicated that 140 of the 172 children from birth to age 18 died from conditions for which survival rates with medical care exceed 90%. "The majority of them are under 3 years of age because that's the time when most children get diseases that require treatment."

 

 

Source

Asser, Seth; et al (1998). Child fatalities from religion-motivated medical neglect. Pediatrics Apr98 Part 1 of 2, Vol. 101 Issue 4, p625, 5p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Kain

If there is no notable space between 2 things, then they are one thing. If you can see a seperation without the use of instruments, then it is 2 opposite things. Now omnipotence notwithstanding, God cannot create 2 things without putting a space between them(obviously a 'God' could see the slightest of space, so Omnipotence doesn't stand in this question).

 

"god" could not create 2 seperate cubes and place them exacly side by side?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But there would be visable space between them, Ray. Thats my point. I'm saying 'God' can't make 2 seperate things without putting a notable, visable, obvious space between them. Its just another basis of Faith in which you will try every possible answer before you realize that it can't be done, just like the rock.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The other day a man on a Finnish religious forum said he had had problems with the brakes of his car and not enough money to fix it. So he put his hands on the hood and prayed.

 

The next day he took the car to a mechanic and the mechanic said the brakes were as good as new!

 

:rolleyes:

 

So there's no need to limit this faith healing-thing just to people. Apparently it 's also possible to faith heal cars and other machines. Who needs a mechanic anymore?!

 

Although... I'm a bit concerned about his lack of faith. A true believer would never doubt the Power of Faith Fixing, but this guy...he went to a mechanic to check IF it worked. :disaprove

 

:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Luc Solar

The other day a man on a Finnish religious forum said he had had problems with the brakes of his car and not enough money to fix it. So he put his hands on the hood and prayed.

 

The next day he took the car to a mechanic and the mechanic said the brakes were as good as new!

 

Ummm, wouldn't a mechanic charge you money to check the brakes on your car?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by Kain

But there would be visable space between them, Ray. Thats my point. I'm saying 'God' can't make 2 seperate things without putting a notable, visable, obvious space between them.

 

like i've said before a rock isnt a rock. there's a huge amount of atoms which make up a rock. the difference is that we call this kind of "grouped" atoms a rock. but still, a rock, yes even a grain of sand isnt just ONE thing. also there is a notable, visible (only not directly visible for us humans) and obvious space between those atoms. these "gaps" are "huge" compared to the "size" of the atoms and it's particles..

just because we perceive it as one thing (and therefore may define/ declare it as ONE) that mustnt mean it's just ONE thing.

 

Its just another basis of Faith in which you will try every possible answer before you realize that it can't be done, just like the rock.

 

i realize nothing but that both of those questions are of questionable nature. it is also completely irrelevant what the answer is. there is no reason why those questions whould be of interest.

 

also, i still dont know how big a "big rock" is and still this stays a question of definition. and, like i tried to point out, this "one thing - two things" thing depends to the way things are seen/ perceived.

 

maybe i see the world with different eyes than you. and i say both things are possible, just by defining it. i wouldnt even need to open my eyes for doing it. there is not even a need to mention "god" ..

so if your "god" isnt able to do it, ok. your opinion/ faith.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Originally posted by ET Warrior

Ummm, wouldn't a mechanic charge you money to check the brakes on your car?

 

LOL! Yeah.. but he took the car for its annual inspection. So the mechanic I was talking about was actually the inspector. And in Finland you don't have to pay anything for the second "check-up inspection" where the guy makes sure you have fixed your car as he told you to.

 

I didn't think that was essential to the story so I left it out. Stupid me...must be more careful when posting in the Senate! :D

 

So who wants to talk about cars and mechanics who don't charge a dime for checking them brakes?!

 

...

 

No-one? :( Too bad. It would've been one interesting debate! :p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Share


×
×
  • Create New...