Kain Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 Originally posted by RayJones like i've said before a rock isnt a rock. there's a huge amount of atoms which make up a rock. the difference is that we call this kind of "grouped" atoms a rock. but still, a rock, yes even a grain of sand isnt just ONE thing. also there is a notable, visible (only not directly visible for us humans) and obvious space between those atoms. these "gaps" are "huge" compared to the "size" of the atoms and it's particles..just because we perceive it as one thing (and therefore may define/ declare it as ONE) that mustnt mean it's just ONE thing. i realize nothing but that both of those questions are of questionable nature. it is also completely irrelevant what the answer is. there is no reason why those questions whould be of interest. also, i still dont know how big a "big rock" is and still this stays a question of definition. and, like i tried to point out, this "one thing - two things" thing depends to the way things are seen/ perceived i wouldnt even need to open my eyes for doing it. there is not even a need to mention "god" .. so if your "god" isnt able to do it, ok. your opinion/ faith. We're not talking about things that make up rocks man. I asked if this 'God' that 2/3s of the world neccisitates their life around can make 2 MOUNTAINS without putting a CANYON between them. It can't be done without creating 1 MOUNTAIN. Have you seen a mountain? Probably. Have you seen the atoms that make up that same mountain. No. So the atom to atom difference isn't relavent because I already said OMNIPOTENCE NOT WITHSTANDING. And the rock thing is a totally awall question. How big is the rock? However big it needs to be without 'God' being able to lift it. But if he CAN lift it, than he CAN'T make a rock that he CAN'T lift. But if he CAN'T lift the rock, than it isn't possible that he CAN do anything, because either way he's making one or the other an impossibility, even unto 'Himself'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taoistimmortal Posted February 22, 2004 Share Posted February 22, 2004 RCCAR AND ZDAWG What is the actual power of God that accompanies the occurance of a miracle? What special quality emerges in a moment influenced by divine intervention? Is it in fact Gods doing? Where is the siphon, and where the conduit? Who is the controller of this transference, and what is being transfered? Could it be energy? Electromagnetic fields? and what is the function of belief? Is it possible that this power, and I believe it does exist, is a human ability completely disassociated from the will, or conciousness of He whom you attribute this to, these unexplained miracles? Could it be that the power in fact belongs to man and God is but an eloborate myth, an intermediary concept, that keeps most people in a complete, and dessicated misunderstanding of the nature of these phenomenon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Originally posted by Kain We're not talking about things that make up rocks man. the things that make up a rock make up a mountain too. even you are made of it.. also i am talking about this, because i like to see things on that "atomic level".. I asked if this 'God' that 2/3s of the world neccisitates their life around can make 2 MOUNTAINS without putting a CANYON between them. It can't be done without creating 1 MOUNTAIN. i thought i already agreed that, plus, as i said, i think otherwise. my definitions and views on that may be somewhat different from yours. Have you seen a mountain? Probably. Have you seen the atoms that make up that same mountain. No. So the atom to atom difference isn't relavent because I already said OMNIPOTENCE NOT WITHSTANDING. why is it important to "see" the atoms? what i perceive is probably definable as some "big thing of something". what i know is, that it is something else. atoms. (to keep it at this level..) also, just because there is "one" mountain, it doesnt mean that you dont have any other visible differences like the color or structure of the surface.. And the rock thing is a totally awall question. How big is the rock? However big it needs to be without 'God' being able to lift it. But if he CAN lift it, than he CAN'T make a rock that he CAN'T lift. But if he CAN'T lift the rock, than it isn't possible that he CAN do anything, because either way he's making one or the other an impossibility, even unto 'Himself'. i may miss the point what those questions are good for. i am not seeing things from the aspect of what some god may be able to or not. i am interested in what's possible and what not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 So. Its been a while. I didnt read the whole thing (as usual), so im wondering if skinwalker has gotten rusty. There are some new people here too. Lets see how this goes, as I read backwards, and attempt to post.... I asked if this 'God' that 2/3s of the world neccisitates their life around can make 2 MOUNTAINS without putting a CANYON between them. It can't be done without creating 1 MOUNTAIN. Well.. he could just put one mountain on this floating rock.. and one on that floating rock. You see, no canyon. Just... nothing in between (im joking) I wouldn't get so bent out of shape over faith healing and the fools that believe in it if it weren't for the fact that people have died because of the scams! IDK. The bible tells us not to associate with fortune tellers, and people like that. Is faith healing real?! Of course, but the question is, does anyone have enough faith (anymore) to cure someone (technically, I dont think its the healer, but the person, [i guess this also depends] for example Jesus always said something like "your faith has healed you" or "you are healed because you believed you would be healed" or something like that) Of course, Jesus had, and still has, power, because well.. he is the Son of God. But think about the apostles, remember, the apostles never charged anyone, if they healed someone. But they didnt really do a whole lot untill they were born again, with the Holy Spirit. Of course, they had faith then too, thats one of the reasons they had so many miracles happen to them. Do miracles happen today? Sure. All the time. Look around. Now of course, im not saying every faith healer you meet (if you meet any) is ligit, of course not. Ive noticed a huge ammount of people in the Bible lived by faith. Look at Abraham (Founder of Judiasm), God told him that he would have as many descendants as the stars in sky (too many to count) Abraham, and his wife Sarah were so old, they couldnt have children. Abraham went with his slave, and had a child, name Ishmael. Ishmael, is the father of the people of Edom (i think.) but anyways. Amazingly enough, Sarah became pregnant, at a very old age. They gave birth to a son, and named him Issac. Issac was the father of the Israelites. Abraham never saw the promise from God fullfilled, but, he had faith that it would be. Lots of people have had faith in God, but not lived to see it (but it still happend). And even though they died, they died believing. Faith the size of a mustard seed can move mountains. Did you see my set info in IRC skin? (where have you been, btw, i see you in there.. but no chat?) My setinfo says: 1 Corinthians 13:13 So these three things continue forever: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love. As you can see.... faith is important. Well.. the verse mainly concentrates on love (which is important too) but... you can understand my meaning. i am interested in what's possible and what not. Really? Well, through God, all things are possible. Thats what makes him so great! So who wants to talk about cars and mechanics who don't charge a dime for checking them brakes?! Well.. I know a mechanic that checked the car battery for free.... I would believe in faith healing if it worked all of the time. How come God decides that some people deserve to be healed when they are prayed over? I know plenty of people who've died of cancer no matter HOW much praying was done. No matter how hard I prayed my aunt still died because of her diabetes. Why did that blind man deserve to get his sight back in that eye but my aunt deserved to die? There is a reason for everything. They say the best way to get a message accross to someone, is to tell personal experiences. So, I might as well. I knew a guy once, a good man. For reasons, I wont discuss in this thread, I wasnt as nice as should have been. In fact, I'm amazed that I didnt just give up on God (I was enraged... for like a year) I mean... everyone around me got hurt, because I was so..... self centered. At the time, people told me it was the will of God being done. In fact, while praying to God, several times, I was told to just accept the situation. I said, ok. Eventually, in my own mind, I told my self I had accepted it. But God kept telling me to accept it. Over and over. I just shrugged it off. I lightened up a bit, wasnt as mean, and cold. (I cant believe I acted the way I did). It went on, for a long time. Almost a year. I kept being mean, and just... simply not wanting to know him. Eventaully, it took a while, but I realised, I was wrong. I was too proud, I would not give in and say I was wrong. Never. Then...he just died. Just like that. I took life for granted. His life, my life, my families life. My sisters and mother witnessed his death, and prayed. But he died. He went fast. Very, very fast. You know how when someone dies, you just rethink everything you did wrong to the person. You think ...if only I had done this... or ... if only I hadnt done this... and things like that. Basically, you can tell, if your mean to a person (especially, since he didnt do anything to me) its a lot worse. So in the end, I should have listend to God, when he told me to accept it, because God knew the man wouldnt be around much longer. Like I said, theres a reason for everything. I learned several valuable lessons (not saying that was the reason he died)... the story is far more complex than im willing to explain... to people I really dont know. As for him, he was like a good christian role model. You may think he got the bad end of the deal, but actually, Heaven is a lot nicer than this place. And im sure, he could care less about what happend. Of course, you dont believe in this stuff. And if you dont believe in it, then you would be thinking, im crazy for thinking God was talking to me, and that he just died, because people die, and everything that happend was a side effect, so, you really cannot get angry at God, because in your mind, he didnt do anything. Correct? *Accepts flames in advanced* As for me, Ive made a promise to never do something like that again. Ive confessed to God what I did, and now, I am at peace. Several messages in that story. Its not whether you deserve it or not. Its what God's will is. If I had died... I wouldnt want to think what God would have had to say to me. It taught me a lesson, and others, also, set a number of events into play, in my life, and other people's lives. I wish God had chosen another way to do this... but... you know. People are stubborn (not saying you are). Maybe your aunt died for a specific reason. (im not saying she did). Im just trying to get you thinking, maybe the blind man had some kind of important role to play. My story was an example, to get you (and maybe other people) to see, there is a reason for things, even death. Im sure.... it doesnt sound nice. And I honestly dont like how things went, and wish that God had chosen another route to take. You see... another reason for his death, could be to help benifit anyone who reads this. You see how it keeps spreading? *shrugs* I think you guys are getting a little too technical in this thread also. I mean, first its can God make a rock that he cant pick up, and then it becomes discussing the atomic makeup of the rock, and its interference.. and canyons, with 2 mountains. And lots of bold print, and capital letters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 So. Its been a while. I didnt read the whole thing (as usual), so im wondering if skinwalker has gotten rusty. Yeah... I'm breaking out the WD-40, though Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Did you see my set info in IRC skin? (where have you been, btw, i see you in there.. but no chat?) My setinfo says: 1 Corinthians 13:13 So these three things continue forever: faith, hope, and love. And the greatest of these is love. I saw it, and I must say... I agree with the author of I Corinthians. On that point, anyway I check in on the IRC channel now and then, but I log everything and review the logs... not a lot going on overall. I'm usually at work or school or playing with the kid or homework.... busy, busy, busy... Thanks for sharing that personal story with us. You know I have a slightly different perspective on life and living, but it was touching nonetheless, my friend. Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 *shrugs* I think you guys are getting a little too technical in this thread also. [...] a rock that he cant pick up, [...] atomic makeup of the rock, ... I couldn't agree more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted February 23, 2004 Share Posted February 23, 2004 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Really? Well, through God, all things are possible. Thats what makes him so great! meh. thats what you think. it's not even sure there is a "god", so.. *shrugs* I think you guys are getting a little too technical in this thread also. I mean, first its can God make a rock that he cant pick up, and then it becomes discussing the atomic makeup of the rock, and its interference.. and canyons, with 2 mountains. And lots of bold print, and capital letters i agree. (pseudo?)philosophical stuff which leads nowhere, no matter how it's answered.. Several messages in that story. Its not whether you deserve it or not. Its what God's will is. If I had died... I wouldnt want to think what God would have had to say to me. It taught me a lesson, and others, also, set a number of events into play, in my life, and other people's lives. I wish God had chosen another way to do this... but... you know. People are stubborn (not saying you are). Maybe your aunt died for a specific reason. (im not saying she did). Im just trying to get you thinking, maybe the blind man had some kind of important role to play. My story was an example, to get you (and maybe other people) to see, there is a reason for things, even death. Im sure.... it doesnt sound nice. And I honestly dont like how things went, and wish that God had chosen another route to take. You see... another reason for his death, could be to help benifit anyone who reads this. You see how it keeps spreading? as for your personal story, lukeskywalker1, i must say, you may have been feeling guilty because of your bad behaviour, but important is that you recognized that and at least chose to learn from it and do otherwise next time. it may be your way to handle such things or put a thought on it, through using the "god and stuff" method, i simple like to review my deeds and their consequences. also i think it is always good to think before act and not only after. and there is no god needed to come to such a conclusion. as for your death reasons, no matter if i talk to my grandfather or not, he dies anyways. i die, you die, everyone dies. if you bring god into play or not (a personal choice? ), death is a property of "life". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 The whole rock and mountain questionare was simply a way to root out the faithful. The faithful will try to answer, but since they'll rely on faith (and not atomic substructure), they can't answer it and they tend to get mad at the person asking (me). The whole atomic makeup argument is just...painful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 i guess you never would have thought somebody will try to anwer it "without "faith.. err.. nobody ever did, right? sorry if i perhabs somehow made you mad possibly at me probably.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeskywalker1 Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 I check in on the IRC channel now and then, but I log everything and review the logs... not a lot going on overall. I'm usually at work or school or playing with the kid or homework.... busy, busy, busy... Yeah, i notice my time has been taken up too latley. *sighs* anyways, tell Jed or you could, set a good topic. Right now its: * Topic is 'SOMETHING OTHER THAN THIS' Which.. well, doesnt make a good debate. I dont know, the conversations seemed to be going good at first, but we need a topic, and more people, because most of the people in there, are just there. They are not paying attention The whole rock and mountain questionare was simply a way to root out the faithful. The faithful will try to answer, but since they'll rely on faith (and not atomic substructure), they can't answer it and they tend to get mad at the person asking (me). The whole atomic makeup argument is just...painful. Well, technically, God is onmipotent, so he can undo atoms, and uninvent canyons. If he wanted he could stop the plate techtonics from moving (probably bad wording there) and change all that we know of as reality. Its basically impossible to think about because, this is the only reality we have experienced. Sort of painful, like the atomic makeup of mountains, and canyons. as for your death reasons, no matter if i talk to my grandfather or not, he dies anyways. i die, you die, everyone dies. if you bring god into play or not (a personal choice? ), death is a property of "life". Right, but I believe its all in God's time. His will, will be done. Like I said before, I dont think anything happens for no reason, something results from it. I mean, if you dont believe in God, basically, everything seems in vain. Ok, we can basically agree that the bible is a sorce of wisdom. I think Ecclesiastes, a book that King Solomon wrote (you may know him as one of the wistest men who ever lived, or as King David's son) I consider it a great source of wisdom. Its a good read, if anyone is ever interested. To get to what i was saying, basically, it sums life up nicley, lists a bunch of things people do, and it explains why they are in vain. It gives you a good perspective on life. Heh, even just quickly reveiwing it now, I see a verse that relates to what I was talking about: ECCLESIATES Chapter 3, Verse 11 God has given them a desire to know the future. He does everything just right and on time, but people can never really understand what he is doing. Anyways, check it out. My point is, without God, life is pointless. Go to a funeral, look at the coffin. Is that all there is for you? I think Paul said, its pitiful if thats all that awaits us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Jones Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Well, technically, God is onmipotent, so he can undo atoms, and uninvent canyons. If he wanted he could stop the plate techtonics from moving (probably bad wording there) and change all that we know of as reality. Its basically impossible to think about because, this is the only reality we have experienced. Sort of painful, like the atomic makeup of mountains, and canyons. tenchnically i wasnt talking about "undoing atoms" and "uninvent canyons". i was talking about "seeing" what it really is. and of course it is possible that plate tectonics stop, but this would have consequences. Right, but I believe its all in God's time. His will, will be done. Like I said before, I dont think anything happens for no reason, something results from it. yeah, things happen. and they cause other things to happen. it's the priciple of cause and effect. ECCLESIATES Chapter 3, Verse 11 God has given them a desire to know the future. He does everything just right and on time, but people can never really understand what he is doing. maybe, but that is what science is actually trying to do: understand what's going on, no matter if it's considered "god made" or not. Anyways, check it out. My point is, without God, life is pointless. Go to a funeral, look at the coffin. Is that all there is for you? I think Paul said, its pitiful if thats all that awaits us. but for me it is not of matter what awaits me if i die. i do live now and basically said, it could be worse. also, it's not useful to think always in "time units" of human lifetimes. according to the principle of cause and effect my "deeds" will "live" longer than me. and we are just part of life, we all have only one "task": spread life. the rest is just the way it goes. and if i die, "i" never "will" know if i was right, or, from your point of view, will be for ever remembered to the fact that i was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukeiamyourdad Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by lukeskywalker1 Anyways, check it out. My point is, without God, life is pointless. Go to a funeral, look at the coffin. Is that all there is for you? I think Paul said, its pitiful if thats all that awaits us. That should be if we live to die it's pointless. Heaven and God only represents the after-life, your after-life. Having an after-life does not necessarily imply that a God exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted February 24, 2004 Share Posted February 24, 2004 Originally posted by RayJones i guess you never would have thought somebody will try to anwer it "without "faith.. err.. nobody ever did, right? Why would I ask someone who didn't want to define the existance of a God? Its funnier to ask a religious person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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