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An Idea to get LEC to uncancel S&M2 (Maybe)


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Originally posted by SamNMax

And you bring up EMI. Well, remember how excited everyone was about it's announcement? And you finnaly played it and most people were enourmously disappointed? Well, for that reason, I belive that Lucasarts has lost their touch when it comes to adventure games and that is why they're so dependent on Star Wars games.

And by the way, the EMI disappointment and Sam And Max cansallation; would SNM2 take the same route as EMI? Would people complain that SNM2 wasn't nearly as good as they thought it would?

 

First of all, EMI wasn't a terrible game. And anyway, Sam & Max was a different situation because it would bring back the point 'n click interface that many people missed from EMI. Now, since I'll never get the chance to play Freelance Police, I don't know whether or not I would have been disappointed or how much I would have been disappointed. I do know that the little that I saw of the game looked amazing to me, and Purcell as well as Stemmle (who were both, of course, involved with Hit the Road) gave nothing but good comments on the game's progression. And in my opinion, Stemmle's humor is much more fit for Sam & Max than Monkey Island. (And regardless of how we feel about EMI, the game sold decently and received good reviews, so it was hardly a failure.)

 

The reason LucasArts is more dependent on Star Wars is due to laziness and a lack of originality, plain and simple. Sam & Max doesn't have the biggest following in the world, but it was apparently big enough to cause a stir within a mainstream audience and major magazines. The game was almost done, they might as well have finished it. But they didn't, so now they have on-hand cash to spend on Star Wars and generic 3rd person shooter games.

 

I'm not stupid. I know the game doesn't have a chance anymore. I'm probably going to bottle up my immense hatred and disappointment and take it to my grave. Weep for me.

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I'm no troll. I know when I've been defeated in an arguement. So, insted of not posting anything because I've been proven wrong, I'll leave you with this: You're right. I'm wrong. You guys put up a great fight, and you won. Good job.

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There is one point in all this that I don't understand.

 

I think that this was a bad move by LucasArts, and will do whatever I can to get the game reinstated, however unlikely or close to impossible that may be.

I will concede that Adventures may have had their day and that SamNMax may be right, however depressing it may seem. If publishers don't want to support them and developers don't want to make them, then that's it: nothing we can do about it but play other story-driven games.

I may also say that LucasArts, consequently, knew that the game would not be a success. It was also not taking any risks, in fact it was going BACKWARDS - point n' click. At least RTX Red Rock, for example, was trying to do something different.

 

But this is the point:

"After careful evaluation of current market place realities and underlying economic considerations, we've decided that this was not the appropriate time to launch a graphic adventure on the PC"

 

What makes NOW such a different time to when Sam & Max was announced? Why was it, and Full Throttle, allowed to continue when LucasArts already knew what the market was like? Why didn't they perform this "evaluation" BEFORE they spend thousands of dollars on a game they're destined to cancel?

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You make an excellent point er, The Tingler. I belive if Simon Geoffory didn't quit, we'd all be playing Sam and Max 2 and possibly be waiting for some new sequals. But alas, Lucasarts is ran only by a few corporate suites. I say, someone needs to step up to the plate and take Simon's place. I think I'm just the man for the job. :D

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By the way, and digressing slightly from what has been heard this far in this thread, I wonder if anyone has any information on why the LucasArts Archives with Sam & Max, Full Throttle, The Dig and Grim was withdrawn and replaced with a smaller, DOS-only "Archive" compilation? Was LucasArts unhappy with the 2.0 series Scumm engine? Were they unhappy with Aaron Giles' involvement in the MAME project? Or did they simply admit their defeat and concede that ScummVM was a better engine?

 

Let the speculation commence... :)

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Okay, so what have we learned so far? Adventure games are far from dead, the thread starter has a contadicted life in the way of living one without actually having one and alcohol causes people to think irrationally.

 

I can safely say that the majority of us only learned one new thing in this thread and it's not even worth knowing. Well done everyone!

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Originally posted by LucasTones

Okay, Bobo, sorry. I just didn't get why you mentioned beer in all of your posts. No offence intended :)

 

Don't worry 'Tones. You are forgiven. Apology accepted.

 

Originally posted by The Tingler

Is that party over yet?

 

Yes it is. I have now returned to my home town and I am now in college. The next time I get drunk and go on the internet at the same time wont be for another while yet.

 

Originally posted by Joshi

Okay, so what have we learned so far? Adventure games are far from dead...

True.

...the thread starter has a contadicted life in the way of living one without actually having one...

I'm puzzled. Please explain this one.

...and alcohol causes people to think irrationally.

My drunken thought are actually more rational now than they were a couple of years ago (even though I wouldnt get that drunk back then)

 

Originally posted by cappuchok

By the way, and digressing slightly from what has been heard this far in this thread, I wonder if anyone has any information on why the LucasArts Archives with Sam & Max, Full Throttle, The Dig and Grim was withdrawn and replaced with a smaller, DOS-only "Archive" compilation? Was LucasArts unhappy with the 2.0 series Scumm engine? Were they unhappy with Aaron Giles' involvement in the MAME project? Or did they simply admit their defeat and concede that ScummVM was a better engine?

 

You've got a good point there. Maybe they admitted defeat to ScummVM. I can see why though. Playing the windows version of Full Throttle and Sam&Max on my machine is an impossibility because I dont have any 3D accelerator or anything.

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Originally posted by cappuchok

By the way, and digressing slightly from what has been heard this far in this thread, I wonder if anyone has any information on why the LucasArts Archives with Sam & Max, Full Throttle, The Dig and Grim was withdrawn and replaced with a smaller, DOS-only "Archive" compilation? Was LucasArts unhappy with the 2.0 series Scumm engine? Were they unhappy with Aaron Giles' involvement in the MAME project? Or did they simply admit their defeat and concede that ScummVM was a better engine?

 

Let the speculation commence... :)

 

Didn't the original compilation have only the DOS versions as well? I believe it's only the UK that was graced with the XP-compatible versions...unless you count the screwed-up Armed and Dangerous preview disc.

 

So to answer your question, I'd guess laziness.

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Originally posted by Bobo Donkey™

 

You've got a good point there. Maybe they admitted defeat to ScummVM. I can see why though. Playing the windows version of Full Throttle and Sam&Max on my machine is an impossibility because I dont have any 3D accelerator or anything. [/b]

Now *I*'m puzzled. The Windows versions of Full Throttle and Sam & Max don't require a 3D accelerator. They're just Windows-natively compiled versions of the Scumm interpreter with some fancy-shmancy addons like interpolated graphics and (thank goodness) aspect ratio correction.

 

The new engines are very good. ScummVM is still miles better, though. Most likely because the Scumm 2.0 engines were the work of one man mostly used to Mac programming, while ScummVM is a continuing team effort.

 

Originally posted by Udvarnoky

 

Didn't the original compilation have only the DOS versions as well? I believe it's only the UK that was graced with the XP-compatible versions...unless you count the screwed-up Armed and Dangerous preview disc.

After checking, I can tell you that you are correct. The Windows versions created by MAME coder Aaron Giles are only available in Europe (even says so on Aaron's website) and yes, the US preview disc of Armed & Dangerous IS messed up from the factory (also says so on Aaron's website).

 

So after careful consideration, I've also come to the conclusion that LucasArts are simply too lazy to code new engines. The decision to add Windows engines to the EU versions was probably made by Activision.

 

But I'm disturbed to see that Maniac Mansion is no longer available from LucasArts. It was available in the original LucasArts Archives compilation as late as last December, I think, along with Zak, Monkey 1 and Loom. Correct me if I'm wrong.

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Originally posted by Bobo Donkey™

I'm puzzled. Please explain this one.

 

Forget it, either you get it or you don't.

 

Originally posted by Bobo Donkey™

My drunken thought are actually more rational now than they were a couple of years ago (even though I wouldnt get that drunk back then)

 

Explaining why you think that you can do something illegal to a huge company and not only not get sued, but actually have them beg you to stop in return for finishing a game they cancelled over 2 months ago. Yeah, has ration all over it.

 

Think about this for a minute, if a bear was chewing on your leg with a sign saying "I'll let go for some honey" and you're holding a gun, would you go for the honey in the bee's hive?

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Originally posted by cappuchok

But I'm disturbed to see that Maniac Mansion is no longer available from LucasArts. It was available in the original LucasArts Archives compilation as late as last December, I think, along with Zak, Monkey 1 and Loom. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

That wasn't an Archives compilation; it was was the Classic Adventures pack. It was indeed removed from the company store by LucasArts several months ago. It's the most unwelcome discontinuation ever as far as I'm concerned. It wiped out the enhanced version of MM, any version of Zak, any version of Indy3, any version of Loom, and the floppy disk version of Monkey1 by official means.

 

I really wish LucasArts would get all of their old games officially updated with Aaron's engine, even though SCUMMVM is much better. Like Jake suggested, they could just put patches up on the website.

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Originally posted by SamNMax

Actually, the Classic Adventures pack is still availible. They don't have a link on their site, but I got a different link to it, ordered it, and it got to me.

 

There was a time where it wasn't linked to for awhile, but the page could still be accessed and the pack could still be ordered. They took it down for good, though.

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Originally posted by Udvarnoky

That wasn't an Archives compilation; it was was the Classic Adventures pack. It was indeed removed from the company store by LucasArts several months ago. It's the most unwelcome discontinuation ever as far as I'm concerned. It wiped out the enhanced version of MM, any version of Zak, any version of Indy3, any version of Loom, and the floppy disk version of Monkey1 by official means.

No kidding. I was proud to say to people who looked with disdain on classic games: "Hey, look - LucasArts are still selling even Maniac Mansion, so it HAS to be good!". Now it seems I can't even cite LucasArts as a good example anymore... :(

 

Originally posted by Udvarnoky I really wish LucasArts would get all of their old games officially updated with Aaron's engine, even though SCUMMVM is much better. Like Jake suggested, they could just put patches up on the website.

Yeah. Once, they said they'd use ScummVM as a sort of "authorized" engine (Ender, please confirm) but somehow it never came to pass.

Another nail in the coffin for humorous adventure games in general, and LucasArts adventures in particular.

I don't think LEC has been in touch with Aaron since he left them to work for Connectix. I think the Windows engines was purely an idea of Activision's and not really checked with LucasArts (if they had, these versions would sure be for sale in LucasArts online store as well, since J. Random Gamer these days don't know how to optimize a DOS environment. A sad state of affairs, really.

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Why is this such a big concern? Surely you can just play MM from within DOTT instead?

 

And MM IS a little old now. MI1 & 2 still work because not only do they still look quite respectable (no worse than The Dig or Full Throttle), they're the famous pair with two recent sequels. Anything older and most people will just look at them in disgust, then hopefully turn to Sam & Max, DOTT etc.

 

Frankly, MM bored the arse off me.

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Originally posted by The Tingler

Why is this such a big concern? Surely you can just play MM from within DOTT instead?

Yes and no. Because you can't play DOTT under XP. Not with the real, original engine anyway. Of course, if you have ScummVM and DOTT, you can load up Maniac Mansion from the folder within the DOTT folder and play MM separately, but not from within DOTT (ScummVM doesn't support that game-in-game feature yet).

For those who care about the original gameplay and nostalgia in general, the original MM and Zak not being sold anymore is VERY sad.

 

Originally posted by The Tingler

And MM IS a little old now. MI1 & 2 still work because not only do they still look quite respectable (no worse than The Dig or Full Throttle), they're the famous pair with two recent sequels. Anything older and most people will just look at them in disgust, then hopefully turn to Sam & Max, DOTT etc.

 

Frankly, MM bored the arse off me. [/b]

Maniac Mansion and Zak represents the very beginning of the greatness which LucasArts had up to around the Curse of Monkey Island, and then rapidly lost as they turned into the not quite infinite bunch of monkeys churning out half-baked Star Wars license games by the hundreds (well, it feels like it). And that's coming from a Star Wars fan, so don't get the idea that I'm some anything-but-adventures-suck type of gamer.

 

As for Monkey Island, I'm not counting COMI and EMI as true sequels, but more of spin-offs. Until Ron Gilbert completes the trilogy (that he has stated it was supposed to be, and it rings true with MI2 having a somewhat darker ending than the first one, along the lines of George Lucas' trilogies (Indy, Star Wars)) we won't know the real Secret of Monkey Island. But that's outside the topic of this thread. Oh well.

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Maniac Mansion and Zak represents the very beginning of the greatness which LucasArts had up to around the Curse of Monkey Island, and then rapidly lost

 

Just have to point out - Grim Fandango came after Curse. Whatever your views on EFMI (I personally love it), you can't deny that Grim is one of LucasArts' finest hours, if not the pinnacle of creative genius in the computer game world.

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Originally posted by The Tingler

Just have to point out - Grim Fandango came after Curse. Whatever your views on EFMI (I personally love it), you can't deny that Grim is one of LucasArts' finest hours, if not the pinnacle of creative genius in the computer game world.

Oops - my bad. Of course, Grim is really great, both in concept and execution. But as LucasTones points out, it was basically one man's labor of love, and not representative of the concurrent LucasArts titles.

At that time, LEC had already outsourced most of their development. The only really good games developed out-of-house at that time (IMHO) are the ones from Factor 5 (Rogue Squadron). Even though not really simulators, the Rogue games are still the best LEC flight-"sims" to have been released post-TIE-Fighter.

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I wish the emphasis was on "basically" in that sentence, but frankly the whole sentence is misplaced. Trying to put Grim Fandango in the same context as a movie is not in any way accurate. Calling Grim the work of one man is a little off. Personally I think Peter McConnell (music), Peter Chan (art) and, uh, Peter, um, something (whatsisname who plays Manny) deserve their involvement credits, to sortof name just three guys.

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Originally posted by The Tingler

I wish the emphasis was on "basically" in that sentence, but frankly the whole sentence is misplaced. Trying to put Grim Fandango in the same context as a movie is not in any way accurate. Calling Grim the work of one man is a little off. Personally I think Peter McConnell (music), Peter Chan (art) and, uh, Peter, um, something (whatsisname who plays Manny) deserve their involvement credits, to sortof name just three guys.

Same context as a movie? What ARE you talking about - I did no such thing.

The "one man's work" of course does not exclude that fact that there were many talented people working on it. I'm pointing out that Grim was way above and beyond anything LucasArts has churned out since Curse of Monkey Island. At the time Grim was released, the average LucasArts title was already crap. Grim was better than the rest, and so it was not representative of the rest of the concurrent LucasArts lineup.

When Curse of Monkey Island was released, LEC at least still had a decent number of good titles in their lineup, but after that, Grim and (depending on your opinion) EFMI have been the only two REALLY good games to depart from the LucasArts production line. Again, this is IMHO, of course.

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To TheTingler - Escape From Monkey Island also had great music, great art, and great voice acting - but it wasn't even close to Grim Fandango. Story, and writing is 90% of the job, baby!!

 

To Cappuchok - I agree, the Factor 5 games are awesome :)

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