Rebels Revised?

[TK-8252]

Looks like LucasArts has been making some changes to the Rebel faction.

 

http://www.lucasarts.com/games/swbattlefront/factions.html

 

Soldiers now carry concussion grenades.

 

Vanguards now carry themal detonators.

 

Pilots now carry a Golan Arms Scatter Rifle, thermal detonators, and the Wookiee's former medpac.

 

Marksmen carry the former Bothan disguise kit.

 

Wookiees carry thermal detonators, time bombs, and no longer carry medpacs.

 

Bothans completely removed.

[yaebginn]

good eye. It now makes certain charatcers that much more desirable. the pilot now has a decent ground weapon, the sniper now can do alot more, the smuggler got kind of a downgrade, and the soldier got better,too. sounds good.

[JawaJoey]

Interesting changes. Smuggler seems kind of useless. Just the time bomb, which I suppose will be good vs. AT-AT/STs. I'm sort of confused why pilot is becoming such a support class. When I think Pilot, I don't think Medic.

[Mountainforest]

The separatists only have 5 units. Rebels got one less too. I supose all factions will only get 5 units.

 

Why are the medkits called chewab medkits, now the pilot carries them?

[Glacius1]

I think this change is for the better. Instead of having a whole bucnh of classes each with only one ability, its better that they have eliminated one and given a few others more flexibility. Like the scout. all thats left for them to do now to make it perfect is MAKE A MALE SKIN for the scout. woops, that just slipped out.

[Alegis]

I like it that the classes get more unique features, but pilot=medic?

[Drax64]

This could actually make the pilot more desireable, because now you can have the pilot run around in a speeder bike and act as a really fast way to make emergency healings. Also, since the Vanguard is anti-armor, would it make sense that the smuggler is anti-buildings? Where he goes around and blows up weapon emplacements and things like that?

[Idei]

They really should call pilots another name. The role that they play currently is more of a general support class, whether its gunship/vehicle support or repair/construct. I'm sure they want to keep the graphics of the Rebel pilot in the game, but given the role that they play in the game it just seems so weird to have the pilot skin on a player that is constructing turrets. My suggestion is that they give pilots a droid as part of their gear. Then they can activate the droid and tell it to build or repair, the way its done in the movies.

 

As far as the other changes, most of them are upgrades to their respective classes. Mainly they add more offensive capability and that's always a bonus worth keeping, but the Rebel Marksman might need further tweaking.

 

The new Rebel Marksman carries a team camo kit (disguise kit), but what can she do with the kit? I remember reading somewhere that the Bothan Spy would be able to disrupt faction bases, but the new Rebel Marksman doesn't seem to have any of those skills added. Maybe its implied that a unit in camo can perform certain tasks in opposing faction bases, but in all the games i've seen the covert units rarely work as intended....mostly due to the fact that the other team can spot them very quickly with or without any special detection built into the game.

 

Overall the changes seem to help the game fit better than before. After reading the Separatist faction units it seemed like the Rebel units were underpowered. With the new gear they seem to be on a more level playing field. The idea of camo kits with the Rebel Marksman makes sense, the only concern being that covert units should be evaluated carefully since a player's ability to detect covert units is often much better than the designers give them credit for.

 

 

Idei

[Drax64]

It would make more sense, though, if the Marksmen (Markswomen?) used the disguise kit not to be a covet spy, but to use it to make them almost invisible when they stand still in the forest or something. Besides, they are snipers! What use is a sniper rifle in an enemy base when you are right next to your enemy? "Dude, why do you have that rifle pointed at me?" "Ummm, no reason." To me it makes more sense to use it as a camoflage (camoflauge?) as a way to stay in the background and snipe at people.

[Idei]

With the changes to the faction specs, they're indicating a change in the the role of Rebel Marksman from light infantry to more of a reconnaissance/covert operations.

 

Given that is the way their heading the issue that comes up is whether covert units have a place in the game. Other games have tried having 'undercover' or covert units in the game, but real players can detect them quickly even if the game has built in features like opposing faction uniforms/skins.

 

As to whether Marksman should have environment blending skins, I oppose that idea. If the Marksman class becomes too powerful then every player would select Marksman as their class. If the designers try to then limit the available number of Marksman per server, then it causes player friction and reduces the number of available strategies to the player. The friction is caused by players that are attempting to play the all-powerful Marksman, and the limited strategy comes from the fact that if Marksman were nearly undetectable then its guaranteed that that the max number of Marksman will always be present in the game, thus making the team composition less dynamic since the max number of Marksman would always be present.

 

Good idea, but very hard to implement.

 

 

Idei

[Nevhision]

As long as their is no melee class, a pretty much the team will balance itselft out.

[Drax64]

My idea was based on the thought that you could not move at all, and if you did, the camo would be lost and their would be a 3 second or so time in which you could not move again before the camo kicks in again. In a forest, with trees blocking your view, you have to move around some to get a good angle of attack, thus allowing a chance to spot you. But what if you were to make the disguise kit not last forever, and/or only work a certain amount of times. That reduces the effectiveness of the disguise kit. And for further balencing issues, you can reduce the amount of life or ammo of the marksman, meaning only really good people could have the skills needed to play a marksmen. A covert mission does not necessarily mean going undercover, just that you can't be seen.

[Idei]

the question is then would that be fun? that might be realistic in the sense that real recon units would hold their position for days at a time, but in terms of gameplay I would find that cumbersome having to spend most of my time activating cloak and being immobilized between each activation. If i were playing a Marksman I would want to focus on a) long range fire support and b) recon/covert missions as the game allows.

 

Whether SW Battlefront can implement a nice recon/covert ops capability into their game is still debatable. There are entire games dedicated to that aspect of combat. It almost seems like Battlefront includes it as an afterthought, and i wonder whether they can integrate it correctly since they have so much other content to integrate and balance already.

 

More importantly, my opinion is that the Rebel revision is a solid one, and will make the game better overall. I still want to see the Republic Clone Army and Imperial unit mix before talking any more about balance

 

Idei

[Lt. Havoc]

A lot of the classes make me scratch my head with puzzlement as to "what are they thinking?"

 

The pilot class has the ability to repair and survive crashes? Well it'll be fortunate if you love to always be in a vehicle. You can either get it out of harms' way to repair it and go back in action or if its destroyed you'll survive to go get another. If you're shot on the way there just heal your self. Pilots aren't a very logical choice to act as mechanics. They may check their equipment but not many actually work on it.

 

Snipers have disguises now, joy. Of the classes which is most likely to be played by base-camping bitches. You know what I'm talking about, those players which sneak into your base only to hide out or climb on something so that they can snipe all day long. I got an idea lets make it easier for those loveable players to do that.

 

Vanguard is anti-vehicle, well I'm sure the rocket launcher must be nice and light weight so lets give him some equally light weight anti-vehicle mines.

 

Recon Droids have the ability to call in orbital strikes? Will it just be an automatic bombardment of whatever the player sees? If so hell I'll sit right next to an ammo box and do nothing but orbital strikes. At least in BF1942 calling in artillery promoted team play and required another party to find the target and hit it.

 

smugglers, this seems like a forced idea. Its like they want to show the rebels as being diverse but couldn't decide what magic ability to give them. I thought wookiee's were masterful mechanics and engineers... hmmm lets make him a medic... no wait a saboteur. No one will notice a 7 foot tall, furry, growling saboteur sneaking into our compound which is filled with white & black uniformed soldiers.

 

There is a simple solution to all this class versus appropriate ability crap. Allow players to chose a skin they want but then

allow them to fill a weapon load out on their own. Put weapons in categories: Primary, secondary, side-arm and special.

 

Primary: Blaster rifle, rocket launcher, bow caster, sniper rifle, scatter rifle.

secondary: thermo detonators, mines, concussion grenades

side-arm: blaster pistol

special: medic pack, disguise kit, fussion cutter, time bombs

 

How much better would that be? Mixing and matching you could create a "commando" class or a good support class. Players could adjust their character to fit they're playing style while freeing up uniform options as well. Of course aspects of this idea wouldn't work for all droids but it would work nicely for the generic droid. It would work for the other 3 factions though and give us a nice dose of variety. They're already not giving us the ability to pick up kits so not forcing classes/kits would be nice.

 

I agree with whomever said there should be male and female snipers. Just like there should be black, white or alien vangaurds or soldiers. Give us options!!! What about the ability to choose different colored should pads on the stormtroopers or clonetroopers? How about for the imperial officer the grey or black uniform? That little bit of variety and a chance for individualism makes a game so much better.

[Idei]

Player models are usually modded with variants after release into the community. The reason that they might prefer this model is due to the fact that they might have already invested significant resources into building their current interface.

 

In other words, building an interface that allows variable loadouts per player might be more complicated then they would like to include in their game design due to balance and gameplay issues, their schedule to release, or even due to changes to their system requirements on the game.

 

These days with the kind of hardware that's available it's more likely a game design issue considering that the game is due to be released in a relatively few more months.

 

At any rate, a solid idea. Been done before in Tribes 2, but has merit. Tribes 2 is relatively fast paced, but the learning curve was a bit steep. They might want a fast learning curve since their target audience is less likely to want to spend an hour just getting their player configured with the correct weapon loadout.

 

Idei

[Mountainforest]

Originally posted by Drax Kreiger

My idea was based on the thought that you could not move at all, and if you did, the camo would be lost and their would be a 3 second or so time in which you could not move again before the camo kicks in again. In a forest, with trees blocking your view, you have to move around some to get a good angle of attack, thus allowing a chance to spot you. But what if you were to make the disguise kit not last forever, and/or only work a certain amount of times. That reduces the effectiveness of the disguise kit. And for further balencing issues, you can reduce the amount of life or ammo of the marksman, meaning only really good people could have the skills needed to play a marksmen. A covert mission does not necessarily mean going undercover, just that you can't be seen.

 

I think that wouldn't be bad at all. The nice part of being a sniper would be to gat from vantage point A to vantage point B without being detected.

And regarding the cloack: it could also be similar to the snipercloack in jedi knight jedi academy siege. There you can't be seen from a long distance, but ifan enemy is close to you, he detects you easely.

 

The only thing I don't undersyand is the pilot, wich now just does all the support. It's not fune anymore. There will be to many pilots in the game.

[StormHammer]

I'm sure there will eventually be some mods to change the skins that come with the game.

 

On the issue of setting certain skins to each class, however, it makes a lot of sense. If you spot someone with a particular skin on the battlefield, you know immediately what class they are, and how they can help you - or how you can assist them.

 

This is one of the things I like about Enemy Territory - just by looking around I can tell whether I've got a medic backing me up, or if we've got an engineer in our squad.

 

However, I do take your point about being able to choose weapons. In ET nearly every class has a choice of which secondary (heavier) weapon they can carry. Everyone gets a pistol and grenades. The classes are more clear-cut in what they can do, though. You have Medics, Field Ops, Covert Ops, ordinary Soldiers, Engineers...and those classes work well for what they do.

 

Seeing some of the changes listed above, I have to wonder at some of the design choices. They seemed more realistic before - and now it just seems they want to cut down the number of classes available. There are advantages and disadvantages to doing that.

 

In my view, a sniper has no business having covert abilities. The whole point of a sniper is to keep their distance to snipe enemies from afar.

 

Giving a pilot the job of a medic doesn't make a great deal of sense either - because all classes can pilot vehicles to get around the battlefield. So if a medic class is needed elsewhere urgently, they have only to find an available fast vehicle to get them there. Unless they are going to change that aspect of the game so that only Pilots can access vehicles...

 

I thought they had it right with a Bothan playing covert ops. I would have changed the Wookiee to an engineer class, because that is the function they were supposed to serve in the Empire. As for a medic class - I would have actually put in a 21B droid with improved mobility, and a gun to protect itself - or make it a 'slave ally' of a human medic class (who protects the droid).

 

They need to apply some logical thinking to these issues, or they are going to screw up the balance and make some classes too powerful. I'm glad they've got months to get that balance right, because it looks like they're going to need it.

[Idei]

If I might add.

 

I agree with the possibility that pilots might be very popular now that they will be carrying medpacks; however, if Wolfenstein:ET is any indication of game balance there are always relatively few medics compared to the rest of the team. What I would find strange is a dozen pilot models running around on the ground blasting their way through a map. It should be interesting to see how they balance cinematic realism with gameplay.

 

What I disagree with is the designation of a sniper as a unit without covert capabilities. If there was ever a unit designed to operate in secrecy and shadows that would be the sniper. In my mind the choice to upgrade the Marksman from simple long-range unit to a recon/covert unit makes sense, but if I were strictly considering direct action combat capability I could see how that might be in conflict.

 

Let me give an example of a reconnaissance/covert ops role that the Rebel Marksman might assume. With camo/kit enabled, the Marksman unit finds a position near an opposing faction base. While in camo, all opposing faction units appear on the radar of friendly units. Or in an instance of more direct covert ops, the Marksman unit disables base generators that power all the automated turrets.

 

In the last scenario, where close range combat might occur, I can see where it would be logical to include a more heavily armed unit in the role of covert ops, but one could also argue that an 'undercover' unit would be lightly armed.

 

My point being that a) team composition will most often be 'realistic' in terms of what players see on the battlefield, and b) regarding the Marksman as a strictly fire support only unit does it an injustice.

 

Idei

[yaebginn]

I reserve any hardcore judging until closer to september. who knows, they may re-arragne it again. Too many changes at once, have to wait and see the big picture.

[Lt. Havoc]

if they over simplify the game will lose its potential. Its looking like its being developed more for consoles. I still say you should have the choice of a weapon load out and have done logically where certain weapons would weigh more limiting your choices for secondary and special weapons. It would be worth it to some how petition them now in order to get the variety and choices its looks as if we won't get. Even if it didn't work it would voice the concerns of the awaiting fans and cause to rethink their decisions.

[Nevhision]

I don't have a problem with the camo kit going othe sniper. When I saw the droid sniper with the ability to call an air strike, I thouht wow, the rebel sniper kinda of needs some "ump" in order to balance with that. The pilot thing with med packs...who else? I think they were thinking that the smugler didn't give the impression that you were more of a medic then a smugler.

[Global Strike]

Sounds like they're giving the bothan ex-pack to the smuggler. I'm wondering if they're just trying to balance the factions because the droids only got five classes. Of course, they could just give the droids a personal repairer class. :jawa

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I like the fact that the pilot has a medi-kit. Useful if you get hurt when your fighter is destroyed or brought down.

 

I hope the pilot isn't the only one with a medi-pack, though. "We need medical assistance, get that squadron of X-Wings back here!"? Come on, we need a medic class:).

 

What I disagree with is the designation of a sniper as a unit without covert capabilities. If there was ever a unit designed to operate in secrecy and shadows that would be the sniper. In my mind the choice to upgrade the Marksman from simple long-range unit to a recon/covert unit makes sense, but if I were strictly considering direct action combat capability I could see how that might be in conflict.

You have no idea how well snipers can hide in BF1942. It'd be totally unrealistic if they were invisible or something. And base camping would be way too easy:

Let me give an example of a reconnaissance/covert ops role that the Rebel Marksman might assume. With camo/kit enabled, the Marksman unit finds a position near an opposing faction base. While in camo, all opposing faction units appear on the radar of friendly units. Or in an instance of more direct covert ops, the Marksman unit disables base generators that power all the automated turrets.

Ie. Base camping. I hope you don't play BF1942. If you do, stay away from my games.

 

Defilade, bushes, trees, assorted foliage, hedgehogs, ruins, attics.. there are just so many hiding places. Snipers don't need magic invisibility.

 

I'm interested in that camouflage kit, though. From the sound of it, it sounds like it deploys a camouflage netting or something...

 

On the issue of setting certain skins to each class, however, it makes a lot of sense. If you spot someone with a particular skin on the battlefield, you know immediately what class they are, and how they can help you - or how you can assist them.

Exactly. Well said.

 

As to choosing weapons, well, that'd be really unbalanced, wouldn't it? In Battlefield 1942 and Desert Combat, classes have, say, a knife, pistol, rifle, and hand grenades. Or they can have a knife, bazooka, pistol, and hand grenades. If people got to make their own kits freely they'd take no side-arms, just something like a sniper rifle, a bazooka, a machine pistol, C4, and mines.

 

As for the ex-packs: They're great in battle field 1942. Trust me. Nothing rules more than blowing things up with them:D.

[Lt. Havoc]

A choose-able weapon load COULD be balanced. Bring a little real world logic into it. Pandemic is already trying to limit player run speeds based upon their class/weapon load and that's a good idea, you don't want a super battle droid hauling ass.

 

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.

You have the player selection screen. There you chose your skin.

Without any weapons chosen your character wouldn't have much resistance while running, meaning they could move about quite fast. With each item you add and depending on the weapon itself you build up resistance causing your character to run slower.

 

Next you'd chose a primary weapon. Here you'd see the blaster rifle, rocket launcher, scatter gun, bowcaster, repeater etc. Depending on which you chose it may or may not lock out your choice for secondary weapon. It doesn't make much sense to have a nice heavy rocket launcher, some grenades and mines. That's a lot of crap to carry. Say if you chose the rocket launcher you'd have the choice of 1 or the other (mines or grenades). A blaster rifle or bow caster is more managable and does less damage therefore you could carry a couple grenades and a special item like the fussion cutter, disguise or medic kit. Like the friggin knife in most games every player will have a blaster pistol as a sidearm.

 

What would happen is those item/weapon greedy players would be sluggish and more vulnerable.

 

Players would have to sacrifice firepower for speed but could customize their loadout to fit their needs and roles. Then you could have a demolition sniper, or commando, pilot rescue, a light infantry, heavy weapons expert, combat engineer, saboteur smuggler, a recon rescue and so on. Instead of there being 5 classes their would be dozens of combinations.

 

BF1942's structure and DC's are pretty decent but still lack that flexibility with weapons and skins.

[Huntsman]

Are there different skins? Are all Smugglers Wookie's for instance?

 

The pilot class is kinda silly in having a medpaack I agree.

 

Oooo, what does that disguise kit do? Make you look like an imperial? That's pretty cool if so.