ET Warrior Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Ahso, but stealing and murdering actually hurts other people, and therefore seeing that as wrong is not biggoted. But viewing someone as in the wrong for doing something that hurts nobody else is biggoted, I believe. Like if somebody likes to drink their own urine in their free time. I'm not going to say that that is wrong, and they shouldn't do it, because it's only affecting themselves. But if they like to pee on other PEOPLE who don't want them to, then I will say that they are in the wrong, because they're affecting other non-consenting parties Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn Homosexuality is a sin. Like it or not. By this statement, you are actively condemning homosexuality and declaring that any belief or opinion opposed to or differing from this statement is "unreasonable." You could have said "I believe that homosexuality is a sin" or something to that extent, thus declaring your own views upon the matter but not being intolerant of the opinions of others. However, I cannot judge you by this one statement alone, and it seems you have clarified your beliefs through your further posts. You may not be a bigot, but you do sound like one. Anyways, it is important to note that none of the views so far (an assumption, of course) have come from a gay's perspective. I'm not even sure if there are even any homosexual users on this forum, or even if they wanted to reveal that aspect of themselves, but it would interesting to hear from such a perspective on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coupes. Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 *pees on ET* Originally posted by yaebginn Homosexuality is a sin. Like it or not. How can this be ? Why would god create people that are fundamuntally flawed*, isn't he all powerfull, don't you think he wouldn't create homosexuals since homosexuality is a sin, according to your religion ? This doesn't make any sense ! Or perhaps god has a rather debatable sense of humor and like to create beings destined to burn in hell... *I don't really mean this, but you all new that... just to make sure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Sitherino Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 I guess god has some deepseeded childhood issues, that cause him to create only so he can bring suffering. Can anyone say sadist/psycho? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 It's not that i can say i run through the streets and support gays by carrying their stuff. But i'd like to know what homosexuals are doing or believing, that that is so much different that we can not "support" it. I think they believe the same things as everybody does, some are following a religion and some not. And they do nothing different than others and i dont think they "invented" any new sexual practices. They even have friends, love other people and have long lasting relationships. Only that they have it with people of the same gender. And if "mother nature" would not "like it", she would have made it impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted August 10, 2004 Share Posted August 10, 2004 Interesting, pertinent debate. Its amazing how many times I have read such bigoted remarks, even over at the 'swamp', in what were sometimes originally unrelated threads. ...Unfortunately, I have noticed that following said bigoted remarks, there follows a paraphrasing of holy text(usually The Bible), demonstrating that homosexuality is a sin.... I find this extraordinarily disturbing.... I am aware of the terrible stigma attached to gay people in some islamic communities(even one as 'progressive' as the one I was raised in).... The main thing I have difficulty accepting are that gay people are sometimes denied the ability to express their faith, and to become leaders in religious circles... mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 God doesnt create gays that way. He creates thme, but gives them free will to do as they choose. They just follow the wrong path. jack it isnt impossible, ubt is bad for health. It pops blood vessel and percentage wise, more gays have AIDS then straights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET Warrior Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn God doesnt create gays that way. He creates thme, but gives them free will to do as they choose. And you're willing to refute the scientific evidence that proves homosexuality is much less of a personal choice and is almost completely determined by genetics and upbringing? So if you want to blame anyone, blame the parents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wassup Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn God doesnt create gays that way. He creates thme, but gives them free will to do as they choose. They just follow the wrong path. If there was a "correct" or "right" path, why would this God give people free will at all? Why wouldn't this supposedly all-powerful being just force everyone to take the same paths in life? It doesn't add up. Originally posted by yaebginn It pops blood vessel and percentage wise, more gays have AIDS then straights. Where is the evidence and proof?! There is none whatsoever backing this statement, and it's only a misguided fallacy used to denounce gays and their homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn ..... It pops blood vessel and percentage wise, more gays have AIDS then straights. There was a recent international conference in Thailand on the world AIDS crisis..... I suggest you go look up the latest WHO(World Health Organisation) Data on AIDs before you make such a misguided and judgemental statement of pseudo-fact... mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yaebginn Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 how exactly is it misguided. if you take the precentage of gays that have aids, and the percentage of straights tha thvae aids, the gays number would be larger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by yaebginn Jack it isnt impossible, ubt is bad for health. It pops blood vessel ... How and why? And if you compare the percentages of gay against straight humans from out all humans then those AIDS-percentages relativize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 The following quotes are from AIDS Epidemic Update: December 2003, published by the World Health Organization and found on the web at: http://www.who.int/entity/hiv/pub/epidemiology/epi2003/en In Western European countries that report HIV cases, heterosexual intercourse may now be the most common mode of HIV transmission. (p. 29) Stigma devalues and discredits people, generating shame and insecurity. In the context of AIDS, it can fuel the urge to scapegoat, blame and punish certain people (or groups) in order to detract from the fact that everyone is at risk. Stigma taps into existing prejudices and patterns of exclusion and further marginalizes people who might already be more vulnerable to HIV/AIDS. It stems from the association of HIV/AIDS with sex, disease and death, and with behaviours that may be illegal, forbidden or taboo, such as pre- and extramarital sex, sex work, sex between men, and injecting drug use. (p. 32) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinWalker Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Is god just getting a head start wiping out future fags? Of course not. That's why the whole "a high percentage of HIV/AIDS cases are among the homosexual population" argument is poppycock. It's an epidemic. Period. Regardless of what the demographic is, people are getting it and they are dying. And there is much that can be done about it. Anybody who suggests that even some get what they deserve is a bigot. period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 There are also more that just one way to get HIV infected. But only one is "sexual transmission". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Originally posted by Astrotoy7 The main thing I have difficulty accepting are that gay people are sometimes denied the ability to express their faith, and to become leaders in religious circles... What I have a hard time getting is why gays want to have anything to do with a religion that condemns them. I mean they aren't burned at the stake anymore, so by the Gods why do they seek acknowledgement from such archaic, outdated institutions? jack it isnt impossible, ubt is bad for health. It pops blood vessel and percentage wise, more gays have AIDS then straights. The AIDS statistics you refer to apply only to the Western world, and are biased by the travel patterns of gays. Y'see at one point gays would go to exotic holiday locations to find boyfriends/girlfriends, in order to escape the prejudice and bigotry they faced at home. Unfortunately, HIV was much more abundant in those parts of the world. Well, that's the short version, anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 11, 2004 Share Posted August 11, 2004 Before Christianity(hell, before Judaism), all the big leaders (Alexander the Great, Julius Ceaser, ect ect) were bi-sexual and often took male(or female) concubines on their travels. And since said leaders often oppressed and murdered those of differnt beliefs(Jews and Christians), isn't it ironic that said religions are deftly opposed to homosexuality. Expand your Imagi-Nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack "odc" one. Posted August 12, 2004 Share Posted August 12, 2004 What happens if two women want to marry? I mean, it's not that only men can be homosexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrotoy7 Posted August 13, 2004 Share Posted August 13, 2004 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar What I have a hard time getting is why gays want to have anything to do with a religion that condemns them. I mean they aren't burned at the stake anymore, so by the Gods why do they seek acknowledgement from such archaic, outdated institutions? [/i] I too am perplexed by that, but gays should not be denied the right of choice and participation in their own faith... mtfbwya Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Originally posted by ShadowTemplar What I have a hard time getting is why gays want to have anything to do with a religion that condemns them. I mean they aren't burned at the stake anymore, so by the Gods why do they seek acknowledgement from such archaic, outdated institutions? Because regardless of your sexual preference, it helps some people to have something good to hold onto. Religion is usually the easiest answer. Expand your Imagi-Nation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapNColostomy Posted August 17, 2004 Share Posted August 17, 2004 Well, since this thread seems to be entirely about opinionated horse****, and the fact that if you use a religion for a reason to not like homosexuality, you are a bigot, let me chime in with my two cents. I don't like homosexuality simply because I think it's gross. Two guys, getting sweaty, and trading fluids and bumping hairy uglys, is to me, gross. Not because God said so. Just because I think so. But I don't have a problem with gay people, or their want/right to marry or whatever. I just don't want to hear people cram down my throat the notion that I'm a Nazi, facist, or bigot, simply because my taste differs. I get so tired of hearing all these wannabe Malcom X's of the gay community tell me what a piece of **** I am if I don't like something they're content with. Here's a whole thread devoted to making people feel stupid, just because they have a different opinion? I guess that's what this section of the forum is for, or something... I've made this point before in a thread that was just about par for course with this one as far as the level of retardedness in here goes. Not liking something does NOT mean that you are ANTI (insert whatever subject here). I don't like onions. But I'm not "anti onion". I don't form protest lines, march in parades, or start threads, based on my dislike of onions. I don't like the idea of two men having sex. But I'm not anti-gay. I just don't like the idea of two dudes getting nasty. Like most men of my opinion (GASP! I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE!!!), the idea of two women together is just fine, and also a little exiting. A double standard? Sure. Bigoted? Well, I dunno about all that. If all this makes me a bigot, you can cram it up your ass. Because it seems to me the real bigots are the people that expect me to embrace their ideas, without giving a rats ass why my opinions and ideas are different than theirs. Wow. You don't like the ideas that people of the church have. And they don't like yours. But the only bigots are them? Not you? Get the **** off you high horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mort-Hog Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 If all this makes me a bigot, you can cram it up your ass. Heh. Sorry, the whole "well it's MY opinion" line just doesn't cut it. There is no good reason to dislike homosexuals, or find them "gross". Really, the only argument against homosexuality is religious. That's it. Yes, I'm sure you'll say "I'm not religious, I just find them gross" or something along those lines. Well, you'll have been raised by some religious people, or had some religious influence somewhere along the line. In fact, it's not really a strictly religious thing. The Romans were all pretty much bisexuals, heterosexual sex was really only done in order to maintain the population. Often, homosexual sex would be had for pleasure afterwards. The Romans had a great system of extremely liberal sex and a system that promoted happiness and love between partners, so rape wasn't a problem. It was really only the Christians that came along and ruined everything, bringing along and saying that any sort of desire to have sex is 'evil'. But anyway, saying "well that's just my opinion" is not useful. Yes, if you lived on your own little island with no-one else around, it wouldn't be a problem, but you live in a world where you will meet other people and a fair deal of them will be homosexuals. If you find them "gross", you will treat them differently to how you'd treat heterosexual men. That is a problem. And it almost certainly stems from Christianity (though Islam, and oddly enough Judaism both teach pretty much the same thing about homosexuality). Unless you have some sort of morbid irrational fear of homosexuals, in the same way that some have fear of spiders or heights. In which case, that is your problem. Perhaps some sort of counselling can help with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowTemplar Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Cool down you two. CapN, you're replying to a criticism that isn't aimed at you. If I have understood what you say correctly, it is that you find the thought of being part of homoerotic sex repulsive, but don't nessecarily have a problem with other people engaging in it. If that is the case, then none of the criticism is aimed at you and most straight people probably share your views. What we discuss here is discrimination of homosexuals, which you, if I remember correctly, stated that you were against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapNColostomy Posted August 18, 2004 Share Posted August 18, 2004 Originally posted by Mort-Hog Heh. Sorry, the whole "well it's MY opinion" line just doesn't cut it. There is no good reason to dislike homosexuals, or find them "gross". Really, the only argument against homosexuality is religious. That's it. Yes, I'm sure you'll say "I'm not religious, I just find them gross" or something along those lines. Well, you'll have been raised by some religious people, or had some religious influence somewhere along the line. In fact, it's not really a strictly religious thing. The Romans were all pretty much bisexuals, heterosexual sex was really only done in order to maintain the population. Often, homosexual sex would be had for pleasure afterwards. The Romans had a great system of extremely liberal sex and a system that promoted happiness and love between partners, so rape wasn't a problem. It was really only the Christians that came along and ruined everything, bringing along and saying that any sort of desire to have sex is 'evil'. But anyway, saying "well that's just my opinion" is not useful. Yes, if you lived on your own little island with no-one else around, it wouldn't be a problem, but you live in a world where you will meet other people and a fair deal of them will be homosexuals. If you find them "gross", you will treat them differently to how you'd treat heterosexual men. That is a problem. And it almost certainly stems from Christianity (though Islam, and oddly enough Judaism both teach pretty much the same thing about homosexuality). Unless you have some sort of morbid irrational fear of homosexuals, in the same way that some have fear of spiders or heights. In which case, that is your problem. Perhaps some sort of counselling can help with that. Saying "it's my opinion" doesn't cut it, aye? Are you trying to tell me that there is something being said in this thread that ISN'T opinion? Like everything is fact, unless it's coming from me... Oh, and nice attempt to twist my words around. I never said I didn't like homosexuals, or that I find them gross. I said I think homoSEXuality is to me, gross. You see, I don't like a naked guy. I especially don't like two naked guys. I think that's gross. Oh, and nice try at analyzing me and my upbringing there, Mr. Freud. FYI, I was not raised by religious people. I've never seen my parents in a church, saying a prayer before a meal, or even cracking open a bible. I'm not interested in the Romans, seeing as how they're not really running the world anymore, and I'm not a Roman myself. But thanks for the history lesson anyway. Also, I don't treat homosexual men differntly than straight men. For one thing, it's not usually brought up. I honestly don't care if someone's gay or not. Nor do I have a fear of gay men. Think about it. Have you ever met a scary gay guy? I just think gay sex is kinda nasty, that's all. Gay people? No, they're fine by me. If saying "well that's just my opinion" isn't useful, I have to wonder who put a nickle in you, because you were certainly quick to share your useless opinion. "Really, the only argument against homosexuality is religious. That's it. " Apparantly not. "In fact, it's not really a strictly religious thing." Anyone for nice warm cup o' contradiction? Anyway, ShadowTemplar hit the nail on the head. Without trying to belittle me, or my upbringing, he understood what I'd said perfectly. What part was so hard for you, Mort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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