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tFighterPilot
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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

The problem's Putin doesn't seem to want to negociate with them. It's a bit like the Middle East. Refusal to negociate from both sides of the conflict. Don't get me wrong, the Middle East is waaayyy different. It was just an example.

You bet your ass it's waaayyy different. Israel has tried to negotiate with the palestinian authority many times. They give promisses, there's a few months of silence (at best) and they go again. I, for once have lost all hope to ever have peace with the people who think that the place I live in belong to them, even though they were never here. The day they would understand that they can't wipe our country from existence, is the day they'll agree to seriously negotiate. That won't happen. And that is why I support the separation fence (how ever it's called in english).

 

I don't know all the details about the situation in russia, thus I don't pretend to be able to judge who's right and who's wrong. People should adopt this approach.

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Originally posted by tFighterPilot

Israel has tried to negotiate with the palestinian authority many times.

I won't deny it, Yitzak Rabin(sp?) has. since his assasination(yes he was killed, not by a palestinian but by a jewish extremist) things have gradually gone down now to the second intifada.

 

 

 

Originally posted by tFighterPilot

They give promisses, there's a few months of silence (at best) and they go again. I, for once have lost all hope to ever have peace with the people who think that the place I live in belong to them, even though they were never here.

 

The thing is both sides are heavily controlled by extremists and if one bomb goes up, every one on the other side starts to bomb things then all goes down the drain.

 

Originally posted by tFighterPilot

I, for once have lost all hope to ever have peace with the people who think that the place I live in belong to them, even though they were never here. [/b]

 

Thus, because of people like you, both iraeli and palestinian, there might never be any hope of peace in the Israel/Palestine

You need a lesson in history. The arabs lived and made their homes there for centuries. You simply can't kick them out so easily.

Don't give me any chosen land story for they MIGHT be a legend and myth. Unless there is truth of the contrary(extremely doubtful).

 

Originally posted by tFighterPilot

The day they would understand that they can't wipe our country from existence, is the day they'll agree to seriously negotiate. That won't happen. And that is why I support the separation fence (how ever it's called in english).

[/b]

 

And cutting them out changes something? It doesn't help AT ALL. Like I said before, whenever something happens, there's always a violent response from the opposing group.

 

 

Note that I neither support the Palestinians or the Israelis because I believe both groups are in the wrong. They should try to get together instead of bombing each other. Too bad extremists control both sides.

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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

I won't deny it, Yitzak Rabin(sp?) has. since his assasination(yes he was killed, not by a palestinian but by a jewish extremist) things have gradually gone down now to the second intifada.

 

 

 

 

 

The thing is both sides are heavily controlled by extremists and if one bomb goes up, every one on the other side starts to bomb things then all goes down the drain.

 

 

 

Thus, because of people like you, both iraeli and palestinian, there might never be any hope of peace in the Israel/Palestine

You need a lesson in history. The arabs lived and made their homes there for centuries. You simply can't kick them out so easily.

Don't give me any chosen land story for they MIGHT be a legend and myth. Unless there is truth of the contrary(extremely doubtful).

 

 

 

And cutting them out changes something? It doesn't help AT ALL. Like I said before, whenever something happens, there's always a violent response from the opposing group.

 

 

Note that I neither support the Palestinians or the Israelis because I believe both groups are in the wrong. They should try to get together instead of bombing each other. Too bad extremists control both sides.

Itzak Rabin. He was killed by a religious man. As I said before, all raligions are evil. So don't expect any chosen land stories from me. I know the history of Israel, and I know that the palestinians never had a country in here. When the zionist settlers came to Israel in the 19th centuary, it was a desert. A plain desert. There was nothing here, nothing at all. The palestinians never wanted a country before that, why is that? They probably weren't even here. Also, there were jews in Israel since the middle ages. We made a country, the arabs got jelous, so they attacked us time and time again (1921, 1929, 1936). They rejected everything that was purposed by the british.

 

So now you tell me what would you do in our possition? It's easy to say both sides are wrong, but sometimes you need to think a bit into it, and know the facts before you judge.

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Can a mod move the last 3-4 posts and create a new thread please? It would be nice since we've gotten way off subject.

 

 

 

tfighterpilot: I say it again. I think each group is just as wrong as the other.

 

If I had the solution to end the Palestinian conflict, believe me I would use it right away. Sadly, the problem is deeper then history books can show. As you know, the conflict has been going on for a very long time, generations of children being taught to hate each others. Because of this, neither group has really a good chance of ending the conflict. As long as the hate remains, there will be conflicts.

This is a problem I don't see being solve tomorrow or by weapons or war. It has become a cultural problem, almost at the roots of each society involved in the conflict.

The only chance for peace remains in the hand of the children. (

Johann Koss and Right to Play )

 

And perhaps of the more peace loving people living in the region: Geneva Accord

 

Though only symbolic, it shows how both people can sit down and negotiate.

Yet as I have said, both side's extremists are unwilling to do anything:

Geneva Accord - Israeli opposition political leaders and Palestinian leaders announced an agreement in principle on conditions for a final settlement. The agreement, which has come to be known as the Geneva Accord, proposed historic concessions by both sides. Israel would give up sovereignty in Arab portions of Jerusalem, while the Palestinians would explicitly renounce the right of Palestinian refugees to return to Israel. Though it has no formal standing at present, the agreement has gotten widespread publicity, including support from US Secretary of State Colin Powell, and warm words from PNA Chairman Yasser Arafat. The Israeli government has denounced the agreement and the people involved in it, and tried to block advertisements for the agreement in the public media. Likewise, Palestinian extremists and their allies have denounced the agreement.

 

The Geneva Accord and Right to PLay are far better ideas then every piece of concrete in the world built into a wall.

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i'd humbly like to point out that the WORST placed people to have a balanced view of what is going on are those in the countries involved.

Israelis know nothing of the palestinian cause, palestinians nothing of the israeli. The russian public has no more a sensible view on chechnya than the chechens. THe US and Iraqi people have hardly behaved logically after 9/11.

 

If you want you could comare all these types of situation to 2 kids arguing/fighting (or even a debate in the senate).

It starts off as a minor disagreement, at which stage it could be sorted out amiacably. However soon someone says or does something they'll regret. Then the other retaliates a bit harder. Back and forth it goes. As it does it gets further and further from the initial issue. All the old resentments come out. People's points of view become more and more extreme.

 

While you are involved in such a situation your responses seem natural, and each side feels it is in the right and the other is acting irrationally.

 

But to an outside observer it often seems farcical, as you watch it escalate to the point that neither is even listening, or making sense, or even probably believes a lot of what they are saying.

 

Unfortunately, the only way to solve such a situation is for either a strongo utside force to come in and force the two to "make up" (eg, a parent, the US) or for a pause to occur that is long enough to allow tempers to settle, people to calm down and start thinking rationally again and the possibility to forgive and make up.

 

(Look at the Northern Irish situation, or south africa for a good example of this).

 

----------

 

When the IRA was bombing the UK I hated them, couldn't uderstand why anyone would support them, didn't believe any claims made about british atrocities. No political party would risk being called traitors or cowards by openly negotiating with the IRA.

 

However,there was a gap. Tempers and opinions cooled. Talks began in secret so neither side would "loose face". Eventually the peace process started. It isn't perfect, but it is slowly getting there.

 

Of course, extremeists on both sides tried to wreck it ("Real IRA", paisly etc..) but both sides understood that if you stop the whole process because one nutter with a bomb won't let go of the grudge then you are giving more power to that lone nutter than the whole democratic process.

 

Now i can look back and see it was a great idea. I now see documentaries showing that we did treat them very badly at times, that we weren't always in the right.

 

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With regard to palestine/israel my natural inclination is to side with the palestinians. Neither side is "right". It is a messed up situation created by colonial powers imposing their will (like WW2, Iraq, etc..).

So, in a situation like that, with all thigs equal, i would have sympathy for both sides. However the aid of the US stops all things being equal...

Maybe it is the british way, but we tend to support the underdog. And when one side has jets, tanks, apache helecopters and £3billion a year; and the other side has stones, AK47s and has to blow themselves up... my sympathy goes more to them that to the guys with all the hardware.

 

----------------

 

The involvement of the US is the real sticking point for most of the world. It is the main reason most of the world hates the US, it is seen as biased and unfair, it alienates most of the arab world, and a lot of the non-arab world too.

 

I'd even argue that if the US had stayed out of it the either (a) the conflict would have resolved itself by now

or (b) the US would have stepped in and imposed a peace settlement

or © even if it was still going on it would be a minor conflict somewhere in the world that no-one knew about and it wouldn't be the cause of most of the world's problems (as it is today) and wouldn't have united the arab world against the west.

 

-----------

 

When two sides are about equal (as they might be without the US) wars tend to end pretty quickly as it isn't worth the casualities.

When they are uneven the bigger side tends to win.

But when they are vastly uneven (all these terrorist situations) the weaker side has less to loose and has to resort to much more extreme tactics, which quickly leads to the sort of escalation we see in all these situations. (the stronger side also tends to overreact and become more hardline, creating more resentment).

 

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As for the security fence, it may work, it may not. It sure won't solve the issue.

 

It's like deciding to put a wall around the dodgy housing estates in the UK so that the people there can't get out because SOME of them might rob or attack us in our nice houses.

It might even reduce crime, but it is unfair, makes things worse for EVERYONE in those estates, even those who weren't doing anything wrong, creates division and resentment.

 

----------

 

I hope i've managed to get my point across clearly without offending anyone.

 

PS/ Did you know that most palestinians live within an hour or so of the sea, and most have never seen it? :eek:

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I had no problem if the palestinians only wanted a country in their territories, or even evacuating the settlements. But they want our ENTIRE country, and they won't stop killing us until they'll get it. Thus it can't be compared to northen irland, nor gigantic russia. Israel is a small advanced democratic country surrounded by monarchic arab countries, struggling to exist.

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Whoa whoa whoa...

 

You do realize that in the Geneva Accord the country is only split right?

 

Not all of them wants to the whole place. The most important area here is Jerusalem which, under the Geneva Accord, would be split accordingly to the ethnic groups living in their parts of the city.

 

Hasn't been mentionned yet, but the settlements are perhaps the worse thing Israel could ever have done. It's poking the hornet's nest. The ancient war tactic of invading and replacing the people there with our own. At least it isn't raping...

 

I supposed you know the Israeli political system more then I do but I won't call it an advanced democracy. This isn't that US where only 2 big political parties can take over the government, its divided between many. Because of that, the party in power has to make alliances with smaller parties, sometimes right-wing extremist parties. Those smaller parties actually hold the power because if the big one doesn't want to listen to them, they'll break their alliance and there's a nice chance the party in power ight not get reelected.

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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

Whoa whoa whoa...

 

You do realize that in the Geneva Accord the country is only split right?

 

Not all of them wants to the whole place. The most important area here is Jerusalem which, under the Geneva Accord, would be split accordingly to the ethnic groups living in their parts of the city.

 

Hasn't been mentionned yet, but the settlements are perhaps the worse thing Israel could ever have done. It's poking the hornet's nest. The ancient war tactic of invading and replacing the people there with our own. At least it isn't raping...

 

I supposed you know the Israeli political system more then I do but I won't call it an advanced democracy. This isn't that US where only 2 big political parties can take over the government, its divided between many. Because of that, the party in power has to make alliances with smaller parties, sometimes right-wing extremist parties. Those smaller parties actually hold the power because if the big one doesn't want to listen to them, they'll break their alliance and there's a nice chance the party in power ight not get reelected.

What you don't understand is that 1 palestinian is enough to blow up a bus.

 

I agree that the settlements are bad, but don't blame the goverment, blame the people who don't agree to move.

 

The political system in Israel is indeed very different from the USA. It is a system more suited for a small country, and on my opinion, more democratic. There are advantages and disadvantages from each system (I learnt it at school ^_^)

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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

And one Israeli Tank is enough to slaughter waves of palestinians. I believe since the beginning of the second Intifada about 900 Israeli were killed and close to 4000 Palestinians suffered the same fate. I'll have to find the stats.

You indeed will have. Also check all the Israeli that died in all the wars that the arabs started.

 

About the tank. The difference between us and them, is that we have an army, while they have mob. If we retreat from the territories, there shalt be no tank there. Israeli extremist are usually swiftly caught, and no way they'll be able to steal a tank (this is not GTA)

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Originally posted by tFighterPilot

(1)You indeed will have. Also check all the Israeli that died in all the wars that the arabs started.

 

(2)About the tank. The difference between us and them, is that we have an army, while they have mob. If we retreat from the territories, there shalt be no tank there. Israeli extremist are usually swiftly caught, and no way they'll be able to steal a tank (this is not GTA)

 

1-That's irrelevant. I could check on the stats of all the people who've died in wars in the history of mankind. Keep it to the actual Intifada or else it becomes ridiculous. Past wars are in the past and should stay there. We can only look at them and learn from their mistakes. Let's not dig up old wounds for absolutely nothing.

 

2-Perhaps, but when the government is controlled by a bunch of extremists it makes little difference does it?

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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

1-That's irrelevant. I could check on the stats of all the people who've died in wars in the history of mankind. Keep it to the actual Intifada or else it becomes ridiculous. Past wars are in the past and should stay there. We can only look at them and learn from their mistakes. Let's not dig up old wounds for absolutely nothing.

 

2-Perhaps, but when the government is controlled by a bunch of extremists it makes little difference does it?

1) I suppose you mean current intifada. Yeah, check how many were killed.

 

2) Sharon? Extremist? Don't make me laugh. Many people that once supported him because he wanted to deal harshly with the palestinians now dislike him, and want him down. He is currently incapable of doing anything.

 

The only way the world would be a better place is if I ruled it.

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1) I will.

 

2) No I'm not talking about Sharon in particular. I'm talking about the smaller political parties holding Sharon's balls.

 

I know Sharon has lately been trying to do more liberal stuff. He tried to force the removal of the settlements but everyone oppsed it(I'll have to look at this to point out who exactly was against).

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I think the United States should blockade the entire region. Withdraw all support to Israel, and keep anything from getting in or out by use of military blockade.

 

Eventually they'll have to work together to survive and be given a common enemy (the U.S.) to unite against.

 

I realize that's extreme and irrational, but I tire of reading and hearing about the conflict there. Growing up in Israel or Palestine must be horrible. Either you have to grow up with a constant fear of being in the wrong place at the right time as a suicide bomber detonates in a crowded bus or shopping plaza, or you grow up with the stigma of occupation and the knowlege that your home can be razed by bulldozers any day and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

There are whole generations of Jews and Palestinians that know no other situation than occupation. From the perspective of the Palestinians, all Jews are enemies since it is the Israeli government that is oppressing them. They see the Israeli people as a weapon against the Palestinians, since the government evicted many, many Palestinians to place Israelis in their towns and homes. Imagine having an invading army knock on your door and tell you you have to hit the street. Now. Then watch as the occupying government moves its own citizens into your very house.

 

From the point of view of the Israelis, the Palestinians are mere terrorists. They are willing to bomb crowded markets and buses, regardless of the danger to women and children. The goal is to take as many lives as possible and send as clear a message as possible: "we will fight. We will not give up. To the last breath." This resolve and apparent lunacy must be beyond "difficult" to live with. That someone can just take life without regard for families and the love fathers and mothers have for their children is abominable.

 

So the Israelis respond. They send in rocket attacks to take out the leadership of the terrorists, in vain hope that none will take their places or that the attacks will resolve knew leaders to arise. They are willing to send rockets to crowded streets to hit cars or into apartments where they sleep, regardless of the danger to women and children. The goal is to take as many lives as possible and send as clear a message as possible: "we will fight. We will not give up. To the last breath."

 

Neither side can solve the problem. There are too many among them that harbor hatred and feelings of revenge and vengence to allow any peace. The United Nations created that mess, its their responsibility to fix it. Israel has violated more UN sanctions than Iraq ever did, yet nothing is done. The U.N. should mobilize a large, very large peace force and occupy the entire region from Lebanon to Eygpt, from the Med to Jordan. For about a decade.

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Originally posted by SkinWalker

I think the United States should blockade the entire region. Withdraw all support to Israel, and keep anything from getting in or out by use of military blockade.

 

Eventually they'll have to work together to survive and be given a common enemy (the U.S.) to unite against.

 

Please try to limit quoted material, especially if its on the same page. Post more than you quote is the rule-of-thumb. :cool:

 

The USA had nothing to do with the situation.

 

I'm intruged why when the chechnians attack russia no one thinks of blaming russia. And what do they want? No matter how much territory the chechnians want, russia will still be huge. It's not the same here. Also, the palestinians attacked us before the occupation, and before Israel was even decalered. The occupation is because they attack us, not the other way around...

 

Your idea is that Israel will stay undefended to terrorist attacks. No thank you, I think I'll pass...

 

You are right that killing their leaders is pretty worthless, but that's the American way.

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Originally posted by tFighterPilot

The USA had nothing to do with the situation.

 

I disagree. Indeed, the Israeli government ensures that the United States stays involved by demanding more and more aid. I say cut 'em off entirely. My "blockade" idea was hyperbole, but I'm serious about aid to Israel and Palestine. As long as they kill each other, neither deserves any of my tax dollars. F--- em.

 

The United States has supported Israel at nearly every turn. I believe Israel's existence is a direct result of U.S. aid and intervention at key moments in the nation's brief history. It was U.S. fighter planes and tanks as well as U.S. trained Israeli pilots and tank commanders that allowed Israel to repel Eygptian forces and take Lebanon. Our meddling in the affair as well as our hand in working with other nations of the pos-WWII world in setting up "Israel" as led to much animosity and violence perpetuated toward American targets worldwide.

 

The oil embargo by OPEC on the Western nations was a direct result of this.

 

Originally posted by tFighterPilot

I'm intruged why when the chechnians attack russia no one thinks of blaming russia.

 

I blame Russia. I think the terrorism in the region is a symptom, not a cause. Just as it is in Palestine.

 

Originally posted by tFighterPilot

Also, the palestinians attacked us before the occupation, and before Israel was even decalered. The occupation is because they attack us, not the other way around...

 

The "occupation" is "Israel" in the minds of the Palestinians. What they perceive is a nation being formed and theirs disolved. They see themselves as the victims of an invading force, being displaced from their homes and villiages, told they can no longer utilize lands that have been in their families for generations, because "now these people need a home and their ancestors used to live here a few thousand years ago."

 

Originally posted by tFighterPilot

Your idea is that Israel will stay undefended to terrorist attacks. No thank you, I think I'll pass...

 

My idea is that Israel and Palestine both be occupied and defended by UN Peacekeepers. A few hundred thousand. The Israeli military and the Palestinian militants would be prohibited from engaging in any operations until such time as the UN decided.

 

Those two countries are like children. You don't hand them keys to the car until they know how to drive. Unfortunately, that's what happened, so it's time to take away the keys and make them behave.

 

Originally posted by tFighterPilot

You are right that killing their leaders is pretty worthless, but that's the American way.

 

I was under the impression that the MOSSAD wrote the book on that sort of thing.

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Originally posted by SkinWalker

I disagree. Indeed, the Israeli government ensures that the United States stays involved by demanding more and more aid. I say cut 'em off entirely. My "blockade" idea was hyperbole, but I'm serious about aid to Israel and Palestine. As long as they kill each other, neither deserves any of my tax dollars. F--- em.

 

Please post more than you quote. There is no reason to quote an entire post that is just above your own.

 

If there will be UN troops here, which will prevent any terrorist attack, then Israel will have no use for the militery, and everyone will be happy, and the economic condition will improve grately. I'll be happy if it happens, as I'm not THAT keen to risk my life, although I would to protect people when the time comes. I don't think that there's anything that the UN can do. But again, everyone in Israel would be happy in that case. As for now, we dislike the UN because all they do is talk, sort of like you.

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Originally posted by tFighterPilot

As for now, we dislike the UN because all they do is talk, sort of like you.

 

Do ad hominem remarks like this boost your self esteem? This one is borderline, but I've seen you make similar remarks to other mods in other forums, so consider this a warning to avoid such comments in the future as they are against LF rules.

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Originally posted by tFighterPilot

As for now, we dislike the UN because all they do is talk, sort of like you.

 

That seemed like a direct dig to me. Doesn't seem like you were out of line at all in my opinion.

 

He needs to choose his words more carefully, especially in an intillectual forum like the Senate.

 

Tell him if he doesn't choose his words more carefully, he'll have to face the same penalties as others who break the same rules.

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