Cat Stevens barred from US

[toms]

Peace activist and singer/songwriter Cat Stevens is being deported from the US after being denied entry because his name appeared on a security "watch list".A transatlantic flight he was travelling on to Washington DC was diverted under FBI orders and the former pop star was escorted from the plane.

 

The Transportation Security Administration (TSA) said the singer was denied access to the US "on national security grounds" and would be returned to Britain later today.

 

But authorities have given no indication why the Muslim convert - now known as Yusaf Islam - has been barred from the country.

 

Flight 919 from London to Washington diverted 600 miles to Bangor International Airport in Maine yesterday, landing at around 7.30pm British time, after US security officials were told Stevens was aboard.

 

United Airlines officials in London initially failed to spot his name on the watch list, the TSA said.

 

Passengers, including British pop veterans Marillion, were at first told the diversion was due to refuelling. It eventually arrived in Washington six hours late.

 

Steve Hogarth, 45, of Marillion, said: "I (then) met a security guard who said the two people escorted off the plane were Cat Stevens and his daughter."

 

Mr Hogarth added: "I was really stunned. Everybody knows he converted to the Muslim faith. He is a pacifist and a songwriter."

 

Stevens, who was denied access to Israel four years ago, was detained and questioned, the TSA said. His 21-year-old daughter was allowed into the US.

 

A spokesman for United Airlines said the flight was diverted "to keep the aircraft from entering the north east corridor airspace".

 

Cat Stevens had a string of hits in the 1960s and 1970s, including Wild World and Morning Has Broken.

 

He abandoned his music career in the late 1970s and changed his name after being persuaded by Muslim teachers that his lifestyle was forbidden by Islamic law.

 

Peace activist Cat Stevens has been barred from entering the US after being placed on a security "watch list".

 

Authorities have not revealed why Stevens, now a Muslim and renamed Yusaf Islam, was placed on the list.

 

The singer, who had hits in the 1960s, has been outspoken in his stance against terrorism.

 

So has the US gone over the top? What impact will the move have on race and East/West relations?

 

It wasn't until the plane was over the Atlantic that it was discovered Cat Stevens had been barred from the US. What does this say about security on airlines?

 

Good to see the US making good headlines around the world again.... ;-)

 

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1152503,00.html

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13227858,00.html

[txa1265]

Originally posted by toms

Good to see the US making good headlines around the world again.... ;-)

Let's see - he was arrested for directly funding Hamas activities, and he also fund-raises for many muslim 'charities' which end up being these schools where fundamentalist muslims teach the evils of the west and breed hatred ... his appearance on this list is not a new thing, nor a Bush thing. He is not the hippie folk singer of yore ...

 

Mike

[El Sitherino]

well of course anyone with a song named "peace train" is evil.

[ZBomber]

Originally posted by InsaneSith

well of course anyone with a song named "peace train" is evil.

 

If Hitler made a song called "Peace Train", would that mean he's not evil?

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by ZBomber

If Hitler made a song called "Peace Train", would that mean he's not evil?

well I doubt he would, seeing as he was anything but a peace advocate, but meh. and thanks for ruining a perfectly good joke.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Eh...Sure he must be evil. I mean Muhammed Ali converted and he must be fighting the US...

 

Bah, whatever he did, I don't see why they deported him.

 

What harm could he do? He's a public personality(well was, is still a bit). I don't think he'll commit anything stupid while in the US.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

Eh...Sure he must be evil. I mean Muhammed Ali converted and he must be fighting the US...

I don't think he is evil. I don't even think he is intentionally funding groups that either directly or indirectly support violence and terrorism. I don't believe most muslins support the policy of genocide against the west. I think he is trying to do good things, but opportunists are out there, and may be twisting his good intentions for their own purposes.

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

Bah, whatever he did, I don't see why they deported him.

He was on the no-fly list, he is not a US citizen, and past affiliations and activities (real or circumstantial) have made him persona non grata in the US. That is policy, which should *not* be subjective - flexible rules is a great way to breach security, and it isn't worth it. If he needed to be in the US, he could go through a normal diplomatic appeals process.

Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

What harm could he do? He's a public personality(well was, is still a bit). I don't think he'll commit anything stupid while in the US.

Well, if he were actually a supporter of terrorist activities, he could be meeting - albeit peacefully - with others sympathetic and drumming up financing and support. It is already clear that much of what is happening in Iraq has nothing to do with 'Iraqi Insurgency' and everything to do with 'Muslin Holy War' against the US. They need support and funding from everywhere.

 

Mike

[Spider AL]

txa1265:

 

Let's see - he was arrested for directly funding Hamas activities

No he wasn't. He was merely denied entry into Israel because they said he'd donated money to a Hamas-associated muslim fund... a claim which he denied.

 

and he also fund-raises for many muslim 'charities' which end up being these schools where fundamentalist muslims teach the evils of the west and breed hatred ...

I personally don't agree with the idea of religious schools at all, I think schooling should be firmly secular, but I have to say that implying the generalisation that muslim schools are all breeding grounds for militants is just nonsensical.

 

his appearance on this list is not a new thing, nor a Bush thing.

You're right, it's an Israel thing. Forgive me for being blunt but Cat Stevens being included on a US-watchlist leading to an entire plane being rerouted and the man himself being deported?.. It's ludicrous and fanatical. It would seem that Bushie's lot get their lists of "dangerous people" direct from Israel, a not-entirely-unbiased nation in these matters.

 

Well, if he were actually a supporter of terrorist activities, he could be meeting - albeit peacefully - with others sympathetic and drumming up financing and support.

Okay, do you want to stamp out all muslim charities in the US for fear of some of that cash going to fund some fanatics in Iraq? That's pretty heavy-handed.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Spider AL

No he wasn't. He was merely denied entry into Israel because they said he'd donated money to a Hamas-associated muslim fund... a claim which he denied..

I don't think he is a threat, as I said - but he hasn't done any favors for himself - mainly the whole Ayatollah - Salmon Rushdie must die thing ...

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

I personally don't agree with the idea of religious schools at all, I think schooling should be firmly secular, but I have to say that implying the generalisation that muslim schools are all breeding grounds for militants is just nonsensical.

I typed badly - I meant that there *are* some of these schools which are being used as breeding grounds for terrorists or at least extremists ... which is too bad, really ...

Originally posted by Spider AL

Forgive me for being blunt but Cat Stevens being included on a US-watchlist leading to an entire plane being rerouted and the man himself being deported?.. It's ludicrous and fanatical.

This is one thing on which I disagree with you - whether or not he belongs on the list, the fact that he was should send up an immediate red flag - which it did - and uniform procedures carried out - which they were. Security is about rules and enforcement - not special exceptions.

Originally posted by Spider AL

You're right, it's an Israel thing. ... Israel, a not-entirely-unbiased nation in these matters.

Someone pointed out how media bias used to have them saying 'Arab terrorists vs. Isreali freedom fighters' or something .... but yeah, they are not unbiased ... personally I have always thought that we would be much better off if we were truly working for peace in the middle east, not just peace on Isreal's terms. But at the same time I do see the point that the peace I suggest would likely end up a year later with a massive Arab invasion of Isreal ...

Originally posted by Spider AL

Okay, do you want to stamp out all muslim charities in the US for fear of some of that cash going to fund some fanatics in Iraq? That's pretty heavy-handed.

No - I was asked about 'what he could do' that some might consider 'dangerous' ... I merely strung together the suppositions from the other items and put out a hypothesis of what we might fear from him.

 

Mike

[toms]

I must admit to not knowing all the background on his activities, but almost every news report sated that he has, on numerous occasions, denounced terrorism. So you would think he was jsut the sort of "non-radical" muslim that the US would WANT to be coming and hopefully influencing people.

 

It does appear likely that the US is basing its list on intelligence from israel, which seems foolish. Maybe there are some facts i don't know, but a muslim who preaches peace, denounces terrorism and gives money to charity doesn't seem like a terrible threat to me....

 

The religous schools things seems a bit of a red-herring, as (as far as i know) almost all schools in the muslim world are based in some way on religion... it is much more central to their education system than in the west (which highlights how smart those founding fathers were in trying to keep religion out of schools imho).

But the fact remains that most muslim charities will give to fund education, and most education will be related to religion (some more hardline than others)... so giving to charity can hardly be considered to be funding terrorism.

 

Much as people like to charecterise HAMAS as this big, evil entity, as far as i am aware they also provide a lot of the education and healthcare for palestinians. (you could maybe argue this is to "indoctrinate people, but that is beside the point). So it wouldn't be surprising that a fair bit of humanitarian donations to palestinians goes to hamas related projects... but he apparently denies that claim anyway.

 

forgot my point....

[Spider AL]

I don't think he is a threat, as I said - but he hasn't done any favors for himself - mainly the whole Ayatollah - Salmon Rushdie must die thing ...

For your information, Cat Stevens was never quoted as supporting the death-order on Rushdie. At the time he was quoted as saying that on that score, "muslims should obey the laws of the country that they live in."

 

This is one thing on which I disagree with you - whether or not he belongs on the list, the fact that he was should send up an immediate red flag - which it did - and uniform procedures carried out - which they were. Security is about rules and enforcement - not special exceptions.

You're scraping the barrel AND trying to change the subject. Nobody I know disputes that genuine terrorists with GENUINE links to terrorist organisations should be deported from our countries. That's not the point.

 

The point is that CAT STEVENS for god's sake, who is WELL KNOWN for denouncing terrorism, violence of ALL sorts and publically calling for peaceful solutions, is on this list at all. Why? Because Israel doesn't like him... Because he's a prominent Muslim.

 

I typed badly - I meant that there *are* some of these schools which are being used as breeding grounds for terrorists or at least extremists ... which is too bad, really ...

Okay, that's fine.

 

No - I was asked about 'what he could do' that some might consider 'dangerous' ... I merely strung together the suppositions from the other items and put out a hypothesis of what we might fear from him.

Supposition being the operative word. You can't go around banning people from free countries on the basis of their non-violent religious beliefs. This is apparently what the US has done in this case. All the US authorities have done is string together poorly informed and baseless hypotheses of risk associated with this exemplary man. I wish all muslims were like Cat.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Spider AL

For your information, Cat Stevens was never quoted as supporting the death-order on Rushdie. At the time he was quoted as saying that on that score, "muslims should obey the laws of the country that they live in."

I was merely saying that his lack of a clear statement of position opposing assassination directives and violence left the *perception* that he was not opposed - this is kind of like how there is the perception that only Kerry has flip-flopped on things ... perceptions do matter, sometimes more than facts ...

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

You're scraping the barrel AND trying to change the subject. Nobody I know disputes that genuine terrorists with GENUINE links to terrorist organisations should be deported from our countries. That's not the point.

I don't think so - there are two issues here: should *everyone* on the 'no fly' list be treated the same (diverted, held, deported), and should Cat Stevens have been on that list. My answers are (1) Yes and (2) No.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

The point is that CAT STEVENS for god's sake, who is WELL KNOWN for denouncing terrorism, violence of ALL sorts and publically calling for peaceful solutions, is on this list at all. Why? Because Israel doesn't like him... Because he's a prominent Muslim.

Actually - that is why he *shouldn't* be on the list. We don't want security decisions made on the fly based on that type of subjective criteria by junior officers.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

You can't go around banning people from free countries on the basis of their non-violent religious beliefs. This is apparently what the US has done in this case. .

I agree - I think that this is an over-zealous application of intelligence gathering and usage. I'm sure there are more who don't belong on that list ... and many more who do ...

Originally posted by Spider AL

I wish all muslims were like Cat.

Fortunately most of them are, otherwise I think we would be well advised to nuke the area into the stone age ... but since they are mainly just people, with a few tens of thousand extremists, then there is hope for the future ...

 

Mike

[Spider AL]

I was merely saying that his lack of a clear statement of position opposing assassination directives and violence left the *perception* that he was not opposed - this is kind of like how there is the perception that only Kerry has flip-flopped on things ... perceptions do matter, sometimes more than facts ...

Not to anyone who cares about holding the RIGHT point of view.

 

Wait a minute... You've never specifically opposed the Rushdie fatwa txa1265... You must be a muslim fanatic! DEPORT! DEPORT!

 

and (2) No.

And that's the only answer that's relevant to this debate.

 

Actually - that is why he *shouldn't* be on the list.

Yes, that was the implication of my statement, as well as the subject of the thread. We agree. Good.

[txa1265]

Originally posted by Spider AL

Not to anyone who cares about holding the RIGHT point of view..

Or at least holding a point of view based on knowledge of the *facts* - I don't care if people are right, left or center ... I hate idiots of all stripes

Originally posted by Spider AL

Wait a minute... You've never specifically opposed the Rushdie fatwa txa1265... You must be a muslim fanatic! DEPORT! DEPORT!

But my opinion isn't of any import on that issue - neither, likely, is yours. However, often the lack of an answer to a direct question when being put 'on record' in a public forum is either (a)being evasive (b)avoiding lying. Like recently there was something about Kerry meeting with North Vietnamese leaders in Paris during the war. His top advisor was asked the question to refute that claim, but could not ... of course he didn't acknowledge it, either. That substance doesn't matter, but what does is that a non-answer leaves interpretation open. That, unfortunately, was what happened - so we can't blame everyone else and leave Cat out of the loop.

Originally posted by Spider AL

Yes, that was the implication of my statement, as well as the subject of the thread. We agree. Good.

*That* was what I was getting at

 

Mike

[Spider AL]

often the lack of an answer to a direct question when being put 'on record' in a public forum is either (a)being evasive (b)avoiding lying.

You miss the third common possibility, C: Not wanting to get involved.

 

Everyone has the right to keep silence on an issue. When you start to read your own agenda into their silence, you're not only making up fairy-stories to support your own opinion, you're also infringing upon their right to make NO COMMENT. If someone says "no comment" these days, the press seem to think that they have license to fill in the blanks. I'm both fed up of the sections of the media that DO this, and also VERY fed up of the more gullible sections of the populace that actually LISTEN to such amoral reporting. They should be ashamed of their ignorance.

 

But my opinion isn't of any import on that issue - neither, likely, is yours.

FYI public figures have the same right to silence as you do.

 

we can't blame everyone else and leave Cat out of the loop.

We pretty much can, on that basis.

 

PS: this is all moot anyway, since Stevens DID comment on the fatwa FYI. As stated before, he publically told all muslims that they had to follow the laws of whatever country they were in.

[toms]

But the US is facing an uphill battle in its war against deadly terrorists, especially in terms of international cooperation. UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw - hardly anyone's idea of a privacy and civil liberties freak - complained to US Secretary of State Colin Powell that the detention and deportation action against Stevens "should not have been taken."

 

Yusuf Islam, formerly the singer Cat Stevens, was deported from the United States because of a spelling error, with US officials confusing the former pop star with a man with a similar name who is on a "no-fly" list, Time magazine claims.

 

He had been travelling from London to Washington last Tuesday when his flight was diverted to Bangor, Maine, where he was detained on "national security grounds" and summarily put on a plane to London, US security officials said. Asa Hutchinson, the US Department of Homeland Security's under-secretary for border and transportation security, refused to specify the allegations against Mr Islam.

 

Time, in its online edition, quoted aviation sources with access to the "no-fly" list as saying there was no entry on the list under the name Yusuf Islam, but that there was a Youssouf Islam. They said that name was added to the list this northern summer.

 

Because Mr Islam's name is spelled Yusuf on his passport, the sources said, he was allowed to board a plane in London bound for the US.

 

The US Transportation Safety Administration alleges Mr Islam has links to terrorist groups, which he has denied.

 

Mr Islam, back in London, said he had begun legal action against US authorities.

 

"The amazing thing is I was not given, and have still not been given, any explanation," he said.

 

Boy, i hope none of these terrorist sympathisers has a name spelled anything like me... still, "if you are innocent you have nothing to fear...."

[CagedCrado]

If you fund or promote terrorism you belong in the desert in a tent with your donkey.

 

Not in the united states.

 

Also if you think that war is not necesary then you are an idealistic fool.

 

Also if you are on the terrorist watch list, you must have earned it. If you didnt im pretty sure the united states as a whole will get along just fine without you.

[ShadowTemplar]

Bah! On the one hand you have the fact that he is a religious convert, and on the other hand you have the nagging suspicion that deporting him was political. Messy situation. He sounds like an Islamic version of gee dubya to me though.

[Spider AL]

CagedCrado, your arguments are nothing but amoral bigotry.

 

ShadowTemplar, being a religious convert is a bad thing why?

[CagedCrado]

I dont know or care what religion race or creed this person is.

 

I dont care what race you are, because there is only 1 race and that is the race of human beings.

 

I dont care if he is muslim, there are many muslims who are not terrorists.

I simply dont care, i didnt say arabs who support terrorism should be banned, i said ANYBODY fairly clearly without any reguards to 'race'.

 

Secondly, yes we will get along fine without 1 person being in the united states. I mean come on, this guy is not important anyway.

 

Its obvious he did SOMETHING to get on the watch list, and if he is wrongfully on it then im sure he will eventually be taken off.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

Its obvious he did SOMETHING to get on the watch list, and if he is wrongfully on it then im sure he will eventually be taken off.

 

No, actually it isn't. The best explanation the U.S. government has been able to provide is "a spokesman for the US Department of Homeland Security, Garrison Courtney, told the AFP news agency that Mr Islam's name "was placed on watch lists because of concerns that the US has about activities that can potentially be related to terrorism (BBC News, 9/22/04)"

 

"Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge accused Islam of having some unspecified relationship with terrorist activity (CNN.com, 9/23/04)."

 

According to his website, the artist formally known as Cat Stevens is involved in charities like Small Kindness for humanitarian relief; Islamia Schools' Trust for education; and Waqf al Birr Educational Trust for educational research and development and scientific and medical research. He also publically condemned the terrorist attack in the Russian town of Beslan. But it's undoubtedly one of the charities he supported that got him into trouble, as one is probably suspected of supporting Hamas. Hamas is hardly Al Qaeda and their interests have been the liberation of their nation, which was taken from them and given to the Jews following WWII.

 

I think if the government has enough evidence to deport someone for terrorist ties, they should have enough to arrest that person and file charges. Period. Otherwise leave him alone unless they just want to put him under surveilance.

 

This is yet another example of the fascist tendancies of the current United States regime and a reason to vote them out. They're the same bunch of right-wing, extremist nutters that came up with legislation to restrict and strip citizens of their civil liberties to enable the government to exercise more control. Then they had the nerve to name it the "patriot" act. A more apt name is the "traitorous" act.

 

In related case, Tariq Ramadan, a prominent Muslim professor who was appointed to teach Islamic philosophy and ethics at the University of Notre Dame. He received a visa from the State Department and was scheduled to start his classes in late August. But just days before he was set to travel, his visa was revoked without explanation at the behest of the Department of Homeland Security. Apparently the so-called Dept. of Homeland Security used a provision of the Patriot Act, which bars entry to foreigners who have used a "position of prominence . . . to endorse or espouse terrorist activity."

 

The kind of xenophobia that Westerners have about Muslims is frightening. To think that people are that ignorant that they look at any one wearing Islamic clothing as terrorists is frightening.

[CagedCrado]

The 'right wing nutters' you are referring to are about as liberal as republicans can get.

 

Get real, your rights havent been violated, normal people never get accused of anything and we all happily keep on living no freedoms impeded.

 

If you read my post youd know that i said we arent missing out if this person is not here.

 

It certainly wasnt right wing people who supposedly took away civil liberties, look at roosevelt and the new deal. Liberals have tried to hide that for years. He obviously wanted communism.

http://www.rooseveltmyth.com/

 

Tom ridge didnt say islam as a whole did necesarily had anything to do with it, just particular factions. Dont bend peoples words to fit your liking.

 

Visas and other passports can be revoked at any time for any reason and it has always been that way.

[El Sitherino]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

your rights havent been violated, normal people never get accused of anything and we all happily keep on living no freedoms impeded.

I beg to differ.

[Spider AL]

Get real, your rights havent been violated, normal people never get accused of anything and we all happily keep on living no freedoms impeded.

I also beg to differ.

 

Your arguments are automatically nullified due to the utter (and obvious) lack of evidence or simple fact to back them up. You've obviously absorbed your opinions directly from televised propaganda, or, if not, from someone who has.

 

Patriot act, anyone?

 

If you read my post youd know that i said we arent missing out if this person is not here.

That is not the issue. The issue is whether he had a RIGHT to enter the US, under US and international law, or simply a moral right. If so, his rights were impeded to some degree.

 

I realise you're either trolling or practically trolling, but I hope to waste little more time on you either way, and I suggest everyone follows a similar path.

[SkinWalker]

Originally posted by CagedCrado

Get real, your rights havent been violated, normal people never get accused of anything and we all happily keep on living no freedoms impeded.

 

I think you're naive or just plain don't want to see it.

 

The "patriot" act passed only 45 days following 9/11 with no debate in Congress. On the surface, it can be argued that the time wasn't right for debate, it was time for action to secure the nation. I can give you that. But what has to be considered was that this was a document that passed only 45 days after 9/11! In other words, it was written and ready to go. It was already on the agenda for the neo-conservatives in the Bush Administration to put this forth. They merely took advantage of the moment.

 

You say, "normal people never get accused..." You realize that's plain bull don't you? But then, perhaps you define "normal" as good, heterosexual, xian Americans who support the fascist-like regime of Bush & co. All else get what they deserve.

 

I realize Ted Kennedy isn't "normal" then (SFGate.com, 8/20/04).

 

Brandon Mayfield probably wouldn't be considered "normal" either, since he converted to Islam (MSNBC, 5/25/04).

 

There are many others, I even posted one in this very forum last year about a 10-year old kid who was harrassed by the State Troopers because his mother tried to buy him MS Flight Simulator at Staples.

 

The Justice Department's Office of Inspector General has cited 34 specific cases of abuse of the Patriot Act to date. That's only what's known so far with a specific method of sampling (investigating the handling of detainees)(JDOIG, 1/27/04).

 

I think "never happens" is an assumption we can discard.

 

Originally posted by CagedCrado

If you read my post youd know that i said we arent missing out if this person is not here.

 

I read your post and thought it was Bull and barely worth commenting on. I'm amazed that such ignorance even exists and didn't think you were serious. He was to accompany his daughter to Nashville to "look into a music project." That's revenue and commerce that will be lost for Nashville, not only from Cat Stevens, but probably from those that consider themselves his fans. It's another example of poor diplomacy on the behalf of the Bush administration, which is keeping us in a nationalist, xenophobic state. Isolation from the rest of the world seems to be the goal.

 

Originally posted by CagedCrado

It certainly wasnt right wing people who supposedly took away civil liberties, look at roosevelt and the new deal.

 

Bleh... I attempt to contemporary politics and you attempt a deflection of blame. Cite your analogies rather than point us to some conspiracy site. Besides, if anything, Flynn's essays make the case that current deficit spending is the wrong path and adds another argument for regime change. If Flynn's analogies are used in this thread, then it could be argued that the Patriot Act is merely window dressing used in a post-Cold War world to provide the impedus as a scare tactic to perpetuate deficit spending.

 

And by the way, I've always been Republican until the neo-conservatives took over. Their mix of "religious-right" and big-government thinking is wrong for the nation.

 

Originally posted by CagedCrado

Tom ridge didnt say islam as a whole did necesarily had anything to do with it, just particular factions. Dont bend peoples words to fit your liking.

 

I didn't intend to imply that Ridge said anything. I'm merely pointing out the fact that the majority of American citizens identify "Muslam" and "Islam" with "terror" and "terrorist." I fail to see how you can think I'm "bending" anyone's words.

 

Originally posted by CagedCrado

Visas and other passports can be revoked at any time for any reason and it has always been that way.

 

Bull. Sure, it may have always been legal, but why present ourselves to the rest of the world as a bunch of assholes. Our nation depends upon foreign relations on all levels and this type of crap only adds to the problem rather than the solution. Even in-country, people are flying less just so they don't have to go through the hassle.