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World's population ravages resources?


Spider AL
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Do you believe this report to be valid?  

17 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you believe this report to be valid?

    • Yep, we're all going to die.
      12
    • No! Pure pinko eco-friendly hokum I tell you!
      5


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What's up with people and wanting to colonize space...?:confused:

 

OK, so let's say we spend untold hundreds of billions (use part of ISS's costs as of 2002 CE were 100 Billions+) and estabilish a colony of 2000 on the Moon...

 

Then what? Earth will be in the same shape, and whatever governments funded the colonization will be in a worse shape financially.

 

The moon's resources consist of... stone, sand, and dust. And OK, let's say there were enourmous diamond mines and enourmous forests of fruit, vegetables, and so on and so fourth. It wouldn't mean a thing as it would be -litteraly- hundreds of millions of times more time- and cost-efficient to get those things from Earth. And how much wouldn't they pollute?!

 

Also the government has no right to tell you what to do with something you own.

:rolleyes:

 

It is real great you want to save the world and all, but to destroy our society in order to do it is entirely unrealistic.

I don't follow.:confused: All we suggest here is to reduce pollution, conserve minerals, and so on and so on. Recycling, hydrogen power, advanced factory pipe filters, collective traffic initiatives, car pool lanes, conserving water, conserving power.. all those things. You may say that's idiocy. I honestly do not care, though, as I've long since realized that you are nothing but an attention-craving "troll".

 

OK, let's say the ISS's capacity is 20 tons (which it most likely hardly is ;) ). Add to that that it has no way of repeatedly landing and taking off.

 

So let's assume that you want to make a space ship capable of transporting 2000 tons. It'd cost 100 times more than the ISS, or 100 000 000 000 000 dollars to the USA alone if the costs were to be divided as they were for the ISS.

 

Also assume that, of course, the craft needs added engines, etc. You're up to a good deal more. Then add that it needs fuel, and the cost of each launch is increased dramatically. And given that 2000 tons of rock will of course never sell for 300 000 000 000 000, you'll never break even even without the continous costs.

 

It is totally impossible to make money off of such a venture. Remote mining of asteroid fields sounds awesome when read about, but in reality I'm totally against it.

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Because you, as liberals, are expecting the government to colonize space but for the government it is simply not profitable and will never happen.

 

Companies will have no trouble exploiting resources from the moon and mars. The moon is made up of the same materials as the earth. Also the moon is filled with free power from the sun, as the moon has no atmosphere solar energy reaching the surface is many times greater. So not only would we be mining the moons surface for mineral resources, we would be getting them with no energy expense besides transport. The trip there is pricey but with big enough vehicles would be profitable, and also the fuel for these vehicles is infinite by using fusion reactors on earth to create power for the vehicles. There are a few factors not worked into that scenario, but if there is that great of a need for mineral resources that it becomes profitable that will happen, remember that 512 years ago people said we couldnt go around the world from europe to north america and back. 100 years later they were already done looting the indigenous people in mexico and south america and had a sizable empire. Human ingenuity is incredible when it comes to money.

 

A painless method of euthanasia, that totally supports my point. What do you call it?

No, it doesnt, killing is killing whether it is painless or otherwise, and if you want to do away with your pet it makes no difference to me whether you do it peacefully or violently. So killing your pet is a completly viable option and is completly legal. In most states there arent even laws about shooting your pets.

 

Not as a race, my little friend.

Food has ran out world wide many times before, even in recent history. New technology has always been needed to extract more food from the same lands. Wood has never run out as a resource globally, but salt mines have ran out before. The mines went underground in 13-1600's, so the technology changed to meet demand yet again. Not to mention precious metals, gold, platinum, etc. Gold is so valuable that any time it has been available people have flocked to it from anywhere that could get there. It isnt because we depleted it, but simply because not a lot existed to begin with.

 

It is funny that in a less liberal forum people would accuse you of trolling. Your inane idealistics are no different from my capitalistic viewpoint.

 

The simple fact is that eventually we will mine in space #1, there is no way that this will not happen since no time in human history have we not tried to excel above and beyond even our wildest dreams and succeeded.

 

The only reason i dont agree with you is that you are simply planning on government mandates that will inhibit the united states' ability to compete with nations that dont have the same laws. Trust me, if the resource is there then someone will get it. That is the economic truth, and to deny it is idiocy.

 

I have no problems at all with people trying to save the environment, its just when it comes down to whether a company should decide what to do with its money and what the government decides to do, then i will always defend the company since the government knows nothing and changes too slowly to adapt to anything.

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salt mines going underground isn't depletion of resources, because they're still there. What we're talking about is depletion of resources.

 

give me specifics about when all the food in the world was gone, totally gone, vanished, no longer in existence.

 

and gold isn't depleted, it still exists.

 

and since when is being liberal anti-capitalism? You honestly have no concept of the word do you? you have no concept of any of this political speak do you? You have no concept of the world do you? you're just some small child exploring for attention aren't you?

 

 

originally posted by CagedCrado

I have no problems at all with people trying to save the environment, its just when it comes down to whether a company should decide what to do with its money and what the government decides to do, then i will always defend the company since the government knows nothing and changes too slowly to adapt to anything.

so if a company took it's money and ordered the slaughter of say.... a thousand people somewhere in the world, the government shouldn't step in and tell them it can't do that because it's their money? If they used their money to buy munitions to sell to terrorsists even, that's their money and the government has no right to tell them what to do with it right?

 

(going by that too, then you're contradicting yourself about that whole people that donate money to organizations that give the money to terrorist groups, it's their money after all, the government has no right to do that ;) )

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I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure.

 

:D

 

I think it is unliely that anything will get done about this. The world is now run almost entirely on a corporate basis, based on immediate profit and loss. Governments are unlikely to plan ahead until it is too late. Corporations are likely to fill in the gaps, for those that can afford to pay. It will end up like in bladerunner... with those that can afford to leaving the earth to live in nicer environments, and the rest left with the consequences.

 

The really daft thing is that it wouldn't take much to improve things like this if people (those with the power and money) WANTED TO. 3% of america's farmland could provide enough power to provide over 90% of it's power. Solar power could easily power most urban car journeys.

 

But no one will bother unless there is somethng in it for them...

There is a full 2/3rds of the world's population who don't consume anything like as many resources as us in the west, but they are looking at us and thinking "if they have it, why can't i?". And when they all start driving SUVs as well it is gonna be too late...

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YOU are right, toms!

 

the rich people are the ones trashing the enviroment!

 

we could switch to alternative fuel, but the billionare oil conpanies are sitting on the technoligy to keep them from coming out!

 

the hybrid cars for example: the oil companies paid the car companies money to keep the price of hybrid cars up!

 

since people would no longer save money, people won't buy them! why woul they DO that? the oil companies would loose so much money if those hybrid cars got popular!

 

Its all part of the oil companies plan!

 

its the rich thats destroying the earth!

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Originally posted by kipperthefrog

YOU are right, toms!

 

the rich people are the ones trashing the enviroment!

 

we could switch to alternative fuel, but the billionare oil conpanies are sitting on the technoligy to keep them from coming out!

 

the hybrid cars for example: the oil companies paid the car companies money to keep the price of hybrid cars up!

 

since people would no longer save money, people won't buy them! why woul they DO that? the oil companies would loose so much money if those hybrid cars got popular!

 

Its all part of the oil companies plan!

 

its the rich thats destroying the earth!

 

The rich are a part of the problem. But that does not mean that the rest of the people are not. The non-rich, usually people like us, also have a part to play. The rich, put together, don't waste millions and millions of units of electricity, unlike the commoners, because there's just too few of them. I have no idea of the size of the impact that commoners inflict upon the Earth, but it surely is sizeable. What do the commoners do wrong? Here's the list which I can think up at the spur of the moment.

[*]They do not like to take public transport (reasons: hot, squeezy, uncomfortable, etc. Don't know why they think thus)

[*]Wasting of electricity (Would it hurt to just reach your hand a little further and exert a bit of force on the switch there? Guess not.)

[*]Cutting down of trees (Gee, cutting them down is so great huh? I want more and more paper in exchange for lots and lots of oxygen, even though it sustains life! Wow, paper saves lives, doesn't it?)

[*]People who try to suppress strategies to save the Earth if it inteferes with the clink of dollars rolling in their pockets (this should be quite a small minority, for some are not entirely poor, but it counts )

[/list=a]

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Originally posted by toms

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet, you are a plague, and we are the cure.

 

:D

 

 

It's debatabe whether or not a virus really qualifies as an organism due to its method of reproduction. So Agent Smartypants wasn't as sharp as he/it might of thought.

 

And for the on topic part of my post I'd just like to say I think we might be royally screwed. Maybe we've already walked over that cliff edge and are simply falling very slowly. Uhoh.

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Wow, this came out of nowhere. It seems most people here fell into two general categories, the we're ****ed category, and who cares what happens to the planet? category. Time for some sorting to be done.

 

I don't care for the attitude of, "I own this so I can do whatever I want with it". The fact is that people need to start taking an attitude of stewardship over what they claim to own. It's one thing to say "This is my property and I have the right to protect it."

But you've got a whole other story when you say, "This is my property and I can do whatever I want to it no matter what it costs ANYONE ELSE."

When you claim power over anything, property, land, people,etc, you need to responsible for how you use it. Period. And if you are not responsible, then your rights of "ownership" should be taken away.

As for people going,"Yeah the human race is screwed." I dont agree with that one either. Some of you have mentioned population control, and one or two of you have talked about space travel. I say both are necessary if humanity is going to survive. Population control will NEVER be fully sucessful on its own. In the end I would think population control, limiting the birth rate of the general population, is a holding action to give us TIME to develop space travel. The clock is ticking against us right now. People's job to be to lengthen the time the human race has before we are irrevocably doomed. Population pressure has always been the thing that causes people to move to new places. Now that's what will really cause people to move en masse into space.

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I am all for means of conserving. Right now in colorado there are two bills in particular that I am voting for. One is an effort to get 10% of all of Colorado's energy from renewable sources (wind, solar, etc.) and the other is a .4% tax increase that will expand the fastracks railcar system all through the denver/boulder area.

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This thread reminded me of yet another George Carlin quote. It's rather lengthy, but here it is anyway.

 

"We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these ****ing people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the ****ing planet? I'm getting tired of that ****. Tired of that ****. I'm tired of ****ing Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't give a **** about the planet. They don't care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

 

 

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are ****ed. Difference. Difference.The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

 

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

 

We're going away. Pack your ****, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

 

You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

 

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" "Plastic...*******."

 

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see...Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

 

Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...Whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while."

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Originally posted by CapNColostomy

This thread reminded me of yet another George Carlin quote. It's rather lengthy, but here it is anyway.

 

"We're so self-important. So self-important. Everybody's going to save something now. "Save the trees, save the bees, save the whales, save those snails." And the greatest arrogance of all: save the planet. What? Are these ****ing people kidding me? Save the planet, we don't even know how to take care of ourselves yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another, we're gonna save the ****ing planet? I'm getting tired of that ****. Tired of that ****. I'm tired of ****ing Earth Day, I'm tired of these self-righteous environmentalists, these white, bourgeois liberals who think the only thing wrong with this country is there aren't enough bicycle paths. People trying to make the world safe for their Volvos. Besides, environmentalists don't give a **** about the planet. They don't care about the planet. Not in the abstract they don't. Not in the abstract they don't. You know what they're interested in? A clean place to live. Their own habitat. They're worried that some day in the future, they might be personally inconvenienced. Narrow, unenlightened self-interest doesn't impress me.

 

 

Besides, there is nothing wrong with the planet. Nothing wrong with the planet. The planet is fine. The PEOPLE are ****ed. Difference. Difference.The planet is fine. Compared to the people, the planet is doing great. Been here four and a half billion years. Did you ever think about the arithmetic? The planet has been here four and a half billion years. We've been here, what, a hundred thousand? Maybe two hundred thousand? And we've only been engaged in heavy industry for a little over two hundred years. Two hundred years versus four and a half billion. And we have the CONCEIT to think that somehow we're a threat? That somehow we're gonna put in jeopardy this beautiful little blue-green ball that's just a-floatin' around the sun?

 

The planet has been through a lot worse than us. Been through all kinds of things worse than us. Been through earthquakes, volcanoes, plate tectonics, continental drift, solar flares, sun spots, magnetic storms, the magnetic reversal of the poles...hundreds of thousands of years of bombardment by comets and asteroids and meteors, worldwide floods, tidal waves, worldwide fires, erosion, cosmic rays, recurring ice ages...And we think some plastic bags, and some aluminum cans are going to make a difference? The planet...the planet...the planet isn't going anywhere. WE ARE!

 

We're going away. Pack your ****, folks. We're going away. And we won't leave much of a trace, either. Thank God for that. Maybe a little styrofoam. Maybe. A little styrofoam. The planet'll be here and we'll be long gone. Just another failed mutation. Just another closed-end biological mistake. An evolutionary cul-de-sac. The planet'll shake us off like a bad case of fleas. A surface nuisance.

 

You wanna know how the planet's doing? Ask those people at Pompeii, who are frozen into position from volcanic ash, how the planet's doing. You wanna know if the planet's all right, ask those people in Mexico City or Armenia or a hundred other places buried under thousands of tons of earthquake rubble, if they feel like a threat to the planet this week. Or how about those people in Kilowaia, Hawaii, who built their homes right next to an active volcano, and then wonder why they have lava in the living room.

 

The planet will be here for a long, long, LONG time after we're gone, and it will heal itself, it will cleanse itself, 'cause that's what it does. It's a self-correcting system. The air and the water will recover, the earth will be renewed, and if it's true that plastic is not degradable, well, the planet will simply incorporate plastic into a new paradigm: the earth plus plastic. The earth doesn't share our prejudice towards plastic. Plastic came out of the earth. The earth probably sees plastic as just another one of its children. Could be the only reason the earth allowed us to be spawned from it in the first place. It wanted plastic for itself. Didn't know how to make it. Needed us. Could be the answer to our age-old egocentric philosophical question, "Why are we here?" "Plastic...*******."

 

So, the plastic is here, our job is done, we can be phased out now. And I think that's begun. Don't you think that's already started? I think, to be fair, the planet sees us as a mild threat. Something to be dealt with. And the planet can defend itself in an organized, collective way, the way a beehive or an ant colony can. A collective defense mechanism. The planet will think of something. What would you do if you were the planet? How would you defend yourself against this troublesome, pesky species? Let's see...Viruses. Viruses might be good. They seem vulnerable to viruses. And, uh...viruses are tricky, always mutating and forming new strains whenever a vaccine is developed. Perhaps, this first virus could be one that compromises the immune system of these creatures. Perhaps a human immunodeficiency virus, making them vulnerable to all sorts of other diseases and infections that might come along. And maybe it could be spread sexually, making them a little reluctant to engage in the act of reproduction.

 

Well, that's a poetic note. And it's a start. And I can dream, can't I? See I don't worry about the little things: bees, trees, whales, snails. I think we're part of a greater wisdom than we will ever understand. A higher order. Call it what you want. Know what I call it? The Big Electron. The Big Electron...Whoooa. Whoooa. Whoooa. It doesn't punish, it doesn't reward, it doesn't judge at all. It just is. And so are we. For a little while."

 

 

Environmentalists don't give a **** about the Earth? Isn't that a sweeping accusation? They are trying to save the Earth, the sole reason being that we can live on it. Perhaps you think they're self-centered. But I hope you realise that even if Earth's global warming, the melting of the North and South poles, and other errant weather changes would wipe out everyone, it would not happen so fast. The warming is taking place at a fast rate, but not fast enough to happen in this generation, or even perhaps the next. It would not affect them much. It would affect perhaps the next few generations. They are not doing this for themselves. They are doing it for Earth's people. I find this attitude far better than those who try to cover up the matter, crying," There's nothing wrong with the Earth, honestly!", who try to line their pockets by suppressing the measures taken to save the Earth (you could say the Earth's people instead).

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there was an article on the news report last night when an oil expert AND A SAUDI OIL BOSS basically said that the US shouldn't be relying on saudi oil for it's forcasts....

 

basically meaning that all the oil production forcasts the bush administration (and others) are basing their environmental and energy policies on are called into question.

 

I can't remember the exact figures, but saudi produces 25% of the world's oil. Oil needs are projected to nearly double in the next ten years (mainly due to increased demand from india and china). The US is basing it's plans ont he basis that saudi can increase it's production from 6 million barrels to 22 million in that time. The saudi guy said "don't bet on it" and the oil expert guy said "anything is possible, but i'd give higher odds on me living on the moon".

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he rich are a part of the problem. But that does not mean that the rest of the people are not. The non-rich, usually people like us, also have a part to play. The rich, put together, don't waste millions and millions of units of electricity, unlike the commoners, because there's just too few of them. I have no idea of the size of the impact that commoners inflict upon the Earth, but it surely is sizeable. What do the commoners do wrong? Here's the list which I can think up at the spur of the moment.

 

TRUE! the rich are doing the most damage! they can let the hybrid and hydrogen cars out and it would make a BIG difference! All they're intrested in is selling oil for ridiculus prices! they LIKE the position theyre in! if the want to raise prices for gas, the common folk have little choice but to pay the bigger fees!

 

They do not like to take public transport (reasons: hot, squeezy, uncomfortable, etc. Don't know why they think thus)

true! the solution for THAT is Hybrid and Hydrogen cars, as I said before, the oil companies are supressing the sales of gas saving enviromental cars!

 

 

Wasting of electricity (Would it hurt to just reach your hand a little further and exert a bit of force on the switch there? Guess not.)

THATS true! we COULD turn off lights when we leave a room! we could switch to wind, solar and fussion power. those methods don't pollute!

 

 

# Cutting down of trees (Gee, cutting them down is so great huh? I want more and more paper in exchange for lots and lots of oxygen, even though it sustains life! Wow, paper saves lives, doesn't it?)

that's what RECYCLING is for! perhaps trash disposal people can simply sort and RECYLCE and sell mateirials BACK to companies!

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As ever, Kipper is correct. The rich and powerful must take most of the blame, because they have the most control over the path of our society.

 

seriously though, we've got enough crap to survive, we need food, we have food, we need energy sources, we have PLENTY of energy sources... we are good to go, we may as well keep up our standard of life as well
ehh?

 

You have been reading the articles cited, haven't you Lieutenant_kettch? We don't have plenty of anything, anymore...

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We can't really put most of the blame on the rich. It is a fact that the people waste a lot and there's always the people's refusal to seek alternates because they might be too costly or not "comfortable" enough(like public transportation).

 

If a large enough percentage wanted things to change, the companies will have to adapt themselves by providing the buyers more eco-friendly solutions in order to make $$$.

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You're forgetting the deep psychological manipulation of the public through advertising and the media. If the rich wanted to, they could drastically alter the behaviour of the public, any way they wished. This makes them at least partly responsible for the actions of the poor, as well as their own actions.

 

I agree that the public is lazy... but they're encouraged to be.

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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

We can't really put most of the blame on the rich. It is a fact that the people waste a lot and there's always the people's refusal to seek alternates because they might be too costly or not "comfortable" enough(like public transportation).

 

If a large enough percentage wanted things to change, the companies will have to adapt themselves by providing the buyers more eco-friendly solutions in order to make $$$.

 

Hah, that's very true indeed. But their refusal will cost them much, for the "uncomfortable public transportation" will eventually escalate to a disaster: flooding, errant weather changes, rising temperature, and all that.

 

Originally posted by Spider AL

You're forgetting the deep psychological manipulation of the public through advertising and the media. If the rich wanted to, they could drastically alter the behaviour of the public, any way they wished. This makes them at least partly responsible for the actions of the poor, as well as their own actions.

 

I agree that the public is lazy... but they're encouraged to be.

 

Yes, they aren't doing anything to help, but to tell the truth, I think one cannot hold another responsible for the fact that the accused did not do anything to help, even though its outside his responsibilities. Yet, I perceive that the rich are aggravating the situation instead of helping, or even being neutral, so I suppose that they should be responsible. Indeed, they should at least try to persuade the public.

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while it is true that the rich probably don't consume a lot more than we do, the rich have a lot more control over government and processes, and have a lot more to gain/loose. They therefore have a greater ability to change things (or keep them the same) than most of the rest of us.

 

The point about advertising, and control over people's spending habits is particularly valid.

 

I remember reading somewhere (may have been an early michael moore book) that MOST of what we recylce actually ends up on trash dumps in places like china. Don't know how true it is, but i bet there isn't anyone checking up on where it actually goes...

 

Still, it is a good idea in principle.

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