SW: Next RTS: Military

[lukeiamyourdad]

Windu-For the love of God read man. READ.

You've never seen what a forward base is do you? What do you think it is? A cluster of turrets?

I don't see how my idea isn't viable. I told you already that to build a forward base, you would need to build a brand new CC or link up many power cores. The process is costly and in such a dangerous territory, it might not become a viable option but more of a special feat from a good player.

 

Let me remind you that forward bases are made to churn out units close to the enemy base. I have never seen anyone actually trying to build "offensive turrets". They're defensive structures and very well balanced to that effect. Let me also say that being a victim and builder of many forward bases, I rarely see any turrets being built there.

Hell, if you consider building barracks and factories as "fighting with buildings" why the hell don't we turn it into an RTT?

 

 

much like real life.

 

BS. It's a game. Every RTS involves building units and sending them into combat. You're not going to tell me that in 2 hours, someone can set up a base, churn out 200 well trained and well equipped infantry soldiers.

 

 

 

Endor-It was a bloody commando. Commandoes are not made for base building.

 

Hoth-And lose the element of surprise? Again, it's a game and if you'll see a Hoth map in the campaign, I can assure you it won't involve base building. This is about multiplayer and single player skirmish.

 

Geonosis-Look at Hoth and at the rest of the post.

[FroZticles]

I love hearing people who can't rush, harass or boom telling people how to play the game. *cough* Viceroy

 

If Pbguy was here I'd tell him If you drain a map of all its resources your not playing the game right. Should have been over long before you reach that point.

[Darth Windu]

luke - but then as i was saying, the borders wouldnt stop - they would actually promote - forward bases. By creating a forward base, you would be extending your borders giving you a larger area to control. What i'm saying is that using borders prevents things like building turrets in the enemy base.

 

Viceroy - there is a difference between Strategy and Tactics. Strategy looks at the big picture, so that would basically involve setting up your base, getting resource collection and trading set up etc. Tactics however are small-scale - the actual battle.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Jesus...

 

Have you ever, ever seen somebody successfully putting a turret in someone's base? I'm sure that tactic has done HUGE damage to you and is not both a waste of time and ressources.

 

I say it again, having a buildable area around the CC and extended by power core sounds a lot better then borders.

 

You're impossible, I've explained several times how you do not need borders to counter this incredibly rare and somehow very annoying to you tactic of bulding turrets uin someone's base.

 

Then again, this revolves around multiplayer and I don't see how someone who does not play multiplayer can understand another human player's strategies. I have not seen the AI doing that, I have not seen humans doing that. The greatest thing that comes remotely close to your "offensive-defensive buildings is the AoK waste of ressource Castle push. Again, power cores make more sense then borders.

[FroZticles]

Power cores and CC are not going to be in this game..... Its a new engine backed with a new company lets drift away from the old GB.

[saberhagen]

A turret push is a fairly common T2 strat. Not used as often as the good old trooper rush, but it happens. The idea is to get a turret overlooking the enemy's carbon or nova centre so their workers can't get near it, then they have to waste res building a new centre somwehere else or building more mounties to knock out the turret.

 

IMO it's a perfectly legitimate strat and adds an extra dimension to trooper wars. If you limit the areas where players can build it limits the strats they can carry out and risks making the game more boring. I think the RTS genre seems to be moving away from the hardcore gamers and targetting the more mainstream, casual gamers. This is way they're getting simpler: less res management, or none at all, limits on booming and forward building. It all makes it easier for players of low ability who can't or don't want to improve, but it gets boring if all you have to do is sit back and watch the eye candy (I suspect BFME is one of those kind of games).

[FroZticles]

BFME is targeted at casual gamers but so was generals and I feel that the new RA game will be the same. Small eco managment and they also drifted away from scissors paper rock style.

[lukeiamyourdad]

I just use the terms CC and power cores to make an example. It doesn't exactly have to be a CC and a power core.

 

 

The RTS market has become a niche market. The casual gamer is now looking for a much more cinematic feel when he plays a game and the RTS genre doesn't give that as much as an RPG or an FPS can.

 

This is what Mark Birnbaum, reviewer at IGN says in one of his review of an RTS:

 

The real time strategy genre has seemingly reached its plateau. Save the rare intuitive masterpiece, most of today's RTS games are uninspired, generic, and sometimes just plain sloppy.

 

I feel just like him.

[DK_Viceroy]

Well they still do have a limited version of the rock paper scissor style with Pikeman countering Cavalary and crossbowmen countering the infantry and the cavalry countering the crossbowman.

[FroZticles]

The counters in BFME are not that apparent it takes alot of pikemen to take out charging horseback. Over the course of the first few months EA will be making alot of balance patches.

[DK_Viceroy]

I've said it elsewhere not nessacerily here but I predicted that EA would have to patch this game every day to make it live up to expectations.

 

Of course the lack of directional armour will have to be addressed.

[Darth Windu]

luke - I never said the tactic was a waste of time and resources, I said that it hurts gameplay and realism. Realism, because we would NEVER see anything like that in a 'real' Star Wars battle, and it hurts gameplay because then, as i mentioned before, you just have buildings doing the fighting when it should be the units.

 

All the borders system does is prevent tactics like that, and get you to expand to increase your ability to gather resources. Your borders would automatically be extended by research and by building CC's or the equivalent near the edge of your borders.

[FroZticles]

Agree with Windu completely units do the fighting not the buildings. But in the case of WC3 Night Elves we can make an exception.

[Darth Windu]

For those of us who havent played WC3, what is a Night Elf?

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

luke - I never said the tactic was a waste of time and resources, I said that it hurts gameplay and realism. Realism, because we would NEVER see anything like that in a 'real' Star Wars battle, and it hurts gameplay because then, as i mentioned before, you just have buildings doing the fighting when it should be the units.

 

Arguing against a brick wall would be easier...

 

Never did you claim it was a waste of time and ressource, I claimed that. I think nobody disagrees with the fact that it should be units who dot he fighting.

 

Originally posted by Darth Windu

All the borders system does is prevent tactics like that, and get you to expand to increase your ability to gather resources. Your borders would automatically be extended by research and by building CC's or the equivalent near the edge of your borders.

 

You still haven't refuted against my power core/CC buildable area a single time. Why would that not work?

 

The border system makes sense in a civ building game like RoN. However, in a game where the basis is to whack the opponent, borders become somewhat of an oddity.

Look at all of the modern RTS that has the same goal, which is build up and go beat the crap out of the opponent. Which has a border system? Warhammer:40K Dawn of War does not, C&C does not, WC3 does not, AoM does not, BFME does not(though with this plot system it is arguable), etc. Yet none of them has tons of people whining about turret pushes.

[saberhagen]

I get the impression that DoW is balanced so that bolter turret pushes are a waste of resources, but I'll have to look into it more when I get the full version as I've only played the demo so far. In any case, the SWGB style turret push is redundant because there are no workers gathering resources. otoh capturing control points is a huge part of the game, and you can secure them with a special kind of turret which can only be built there, so in that sense turret pushes are an integral part of the game.

[Darth Windu]

luke - do you even know how borders work? In RoN, building cities or forts extends your borders further, as does a certain type of research. Therefore, basically you are saying that you want the borders system as well.

[FroZticles]

People don't whine about turrent pushes because its a strategy everyone has to except eventually. I agree that I've never heard of a war being won by turrenting. I don't agree with borders either so a better solution has to be somewhere.

 

BTW not all C&C games can build all over the map red alert 2 as an example.

[Darth Windu]

But what im saying is that turret pushes shouldnt be a viable tactic. As i said before, they really hurt realism, and they arent good for gameplay either. As an aside, at the very least removing this tactic would make the game more unique compared to most other RTS' out there.

[DK_Viceroy]

though Windyu the system your proposing does nothing for Gameplay or Realism so there's no point in putting it in.

 

If it doesn't do anything for gameplay or realism then it shouldn't be in. Ever.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Originally posted by Darth Windu

luke - do you even know how borders work? In RoN, building cities or forts extends your borders further, as does a certain type of research. Therefore, basically you are saying that you want the borders system as well.

 

I know how the hell borders work. I'm not retarted and I've played RoN.

The borders get extented very fast and on a large map with a normal amount of players for it, territory is filled up quickly.

 

Again, you've not refuted as to why a power core/CC less restrictive system would not work.

I compare it as a mix of the Protoss Pylons system and the Zerg Creep.

The Zerg Hatchery(CC) would have an certain creeped area where you could build basic units until you can build more Creep Colonies(power cores) which extend the creep for you. The difference here is I want the power cores to work like the Protoss Pylon because the enemy can build in a Pylon powered area.

The difference here would be power cores and CC not giving a huge amount of territory. In StarCraft it was almost impossible for the Zerg to do the turret push tactic.

They had to build a hatchery in front of someone's base and start building creep colonies very slowly into the enemy's base. The process took a lot of time and, unless your enemy is totally retarded, was not at all a viable tactic. Defending a position like that was too costly for nothing.

You could also link up many creep colonies from your starting base all the way up to the enemy's base but that also is not a viable strategy.

My system would differ from yours because:

a) No invisible line telling you who's territory it is.

b) No restriction on a strategy but hampering its use.

c) More realistic in the context.

[Darth Windu]

luke - i dont see how your system would be any different. Incidently, i have never heard of a 'zerg' so that went straight over my head.

 

viceroy - i have already explained how it is beneficial to realism and gameplay. Perhaps you should go back and actually read those posts.

[lukeiamyourdad]

And I have just explained to you how the Zerg Creep functions in StarCraft...

The Creep being the area that the Zerg build on.

 

That was pretty obvious I suppose.

 

Again, my system does not totally nullify the possibility to do a turret push, it hampers it. In this case, if you want to put a CC in neutral territory, you can. In your system, people cannot do so.

 

If I was you, I would not dare to tell others to read your posts since all you seem to do is read a few words in it and then post a half-arsed reply.

[FroZticles]

I hate power cores so I hope they don't have them in the next game. Maybe power stations like generals but I just hate cores.

[DK_Viceroy]

Windu your reasoning doesn't make sense so until you come up with valid reasons I will still think your system is un-nessacery and un-star warsy.

 

Froz what you just had was a stroke of Genius power cores could extend it a small to medium area while Power Generation Stations could extend it to a large to huge area.