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Leper Messiah
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Bullies are a real hate of mine. School bullies to be specific. People that select those that are weakest and cant fight back and make them miserable. Physical or Mental attacks, it doesnt matter. Bullies are the scum of the earth. I think that methods of dealing with bullying are pitifully weak, especially here in the UK. The punishment for severe or long term bullying should be the bully (or bullies) being expelled from school at the very least. I personally think that schools efforts to deal with the issue are absolutely laughable, I think it should be a police matter, bullies should be handed a real punishment and im not talking about the pitiful anti social behaviour orders that are impossible to enforce and no effort is made to anyway. Bullies should be left with a criminal record to show for their actions, after all a victim of bullying could carry the effects of the ordeal with them for the rest of their life, why shouldnt a bully have to deal with a black mark of a criminal record?

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Personally, I've never had a real problem with bullies. True, some people shove me for some reason or another(usually dealing with making themselves better), but I've never actually been threatend and mugged. So take that into account with my opinion.

 

I think that while bullying shouldn't be promoted, mediocre bullying (shoving, occasional stealing(depends), ect.) should still not be a criminal offense, because: 1. The people punching others for money probably don't realise what they're doing, they should instead recieve something more direct to thier current lives like suspension, because a criminal offense probably won't affect them well after the fact. 2. Let's face it, there's going to be bullying in the real world. Wether it's be a mugger on the street, insurance companies or buisnessmen, they're going to still use every dirty trick in the book to get to the ends. The victims of being bullied have to learn how to stand up to the threat- not just the physical but the mental- or else they wouldn't function as well in the real world.

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be that as it may, that doesnt mean people shouldnt be helped. And it doesnt mean you shouldnt employ tough tactics to show that bullying is just not acceptable. And the argument that people dont realise what theyre doing is rubbish. They are doing to to humiliate and to demean. That is the effect they want and they know by doing what they do they are likely to get it.

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Originally posted by Leper Messiah

be that as it may, that doesnt mean people shouldnt be helped. And it doesnt mean you shouldnt employ tough tactics to show that bullying is just not acceptable. And the argument that people dont realise what theyre doing is rubbish. They are doing to to humiliate and to demean. That is the effect they want and they know by doing what they do they are likely to get it.

 

I think they realise that they bully to humilate thier victims, I'm not sure if they entirely understand just what happens to those people mentally. Which isn't to say that they should get away free, just that the punishments have to be more direct in thier lives(in-house suspension or detentions, things which are not exciting for them.) Criminal punishment, again, would be overkill for the situtation-and largely useless.

 

Then again, I still feel that fundamentally nature is better than nurture- it will be better for those being picked on to stand up against thier aggressors than to be held in the bossom of the school system. If someone is bullied by a larger person, then they should learn to deal with the situation, wether by simply confronting the person and getting beat up(or, if they prefer not to recieve bodily harm, build up thier muscles to fight) or by coercing the bully into not punching them(tougher to pull off, but not impossible.) Of course, if this ever becomes life threatening then it's clear to bring it to the administrator's attention. But overall, I imagine that this would produce more people prepared to fight the real world, instead of becoming slaves to it.

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People should learn to sort it out for themselves in a excuse used by schools and other institutions for doing nothing. It suits these places to allow it to go on, it creates a predictable order among people. There is no way in hell it can ever be justified that there should be not interference, we are not animals, we are human beings and we should be able to stand up for someone else when its needed

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But overall, I imagine that this would produce more people prepared to fight the real world, instead of becoming slaves to it.
In my experience, people who are bullied at school largely end up as physical cowards, unable to stand up to anyone physically in later life. This is because they are conditioned when young to believe that because someone's bigger/more aggressive, they are in charge.

 

They don't end up "being able to stand up for themselves", because quite simply, they are incapable of doing so against a larger, more aggressive opponent at that early stage in their physical and mental development.

 

I always wish that I'd done more for people I saw being bullied at school. We should teach the bullied to stand up for themselves BY EXAMPLE, by demonstrating this ourselves. Instead, teachers and other pupils let bullying continue because in reality they themselves are psychologically dominated by the bullies as much as the direct victims are, whether they realise it or not.

 

In short, Tyrion, I consider your stance to be somewhat impractical.

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I do agree that more needs to be done to stop bullying, and the support a lot of schools give is pretty useless. They often ignore it and hope it will go away.

 

I don't think that criminal records or expulsions are the way to go though.

 

Just because a victim may feel the effects of bullying thoughout their life is no reason the bully should too. That just creates two victims. Many people who were bullies when kids go on to lead perfectly normal lives once they grow up... giving them criminal records is just going to make them MORE bitter and angry and make it harder for them to get jobs and grow up.

 

My issue with expulsions is similar. A lot of troubled kids who bully won't care at all if they get expelled. Just means less work and more time to play. It just leads to more angry, uneducated, unemployed youths causing trouble outside school.

 

I saw a system on tv a while back that seemed to work quite well. There was a clearly defined system of offences and punishments (eg: one offence warning, 2 offences detention, 3 offenses etc..) which at least meant everyone knew where they stood.

 

Kids who were "excluded" weren't sent home.

They were given class times that were incompatible with their mates (starting about 12, finishing about 6) so they couldn't see their mates at lunch or after school.

They were put in special classes where no talking was allowed.

They were given clear targets for improvement before they were allowed back into normal school life.

 

Apparently it has a really high sucess rate as it actually affects their social life while trying to improve their academic standards at the same time and doesn't just chuck them out and make the situation worse.

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Fight back. Someone comes at you, you have every right to defend yourself.

 

I've helped out other people that were being bullied. When the bully gets opposition they find themselves ineffective to you. They walk the path of least resistance. Just be sure to make them regret messing with you. ;)

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Originally posted by toms

I do agree that more needs to be done to stop bullying, and the support a lot of schools give is pretty useless. They often ignore it and hope it will go away.

 

I don't think that criminal records or expulsions are the way to go though.

 

Just because a victim may feel the effects of bullying thoughout their life is no reason the bully should too. That just creates two victims. Many people who were bullies when kids go on to lead perfectly normal lives once they grow up... giving them criminal records is just going to make them MORE bitter and angry and make it harder for them to get jobs and grow up.

 

My issue with expulsions is similar. A lot of troubled kids who bully won't care at all if they get expelled. Just means less work and more time to play. It just leads to more angry, uneducated, unemployed youths causing trouble outside school.

 

I saw a system on tv a while back that seemed to work quite well. There was a clearly defined system of offences and punishments (eg: one offence warning, 2 offences detention, 3 offenses etc..) which at least meant everyone knew where they stood.

 

Kids who were "excluded" weren't sent home.

They were given class times that were incompatible with their mates (starting about 12, finishing about 6) so they couldn't see their mates at lunch or after school.

They were put in special classes where no talking was allowed.

They were given clear targets for improvement before they were allowed back into normal school life.

 

Apparently it has a really high sucess rate as it actually affects their social life while trying to improve their academic standards at the same time and doesn't just chuck them out and make the situation worse.

 

Well, I'd certainly like to see that be given a more widespread trial, it sounds effective.

 

A big problem with schools in my eyes is that they dont do enough. Many have anti-bullying statements (in fact i think they are a legal requirement) but no clear strategy is evident in them. Something organised like what you describe there has half a chance.

 

I do disagree with your statement that there should be concern for the bully as well as the victim, or at least i don't think there should be a lot of concern anyway. After all in some cases they cause serious possibly life-long harm. A harsh punishment for such an action is not unjustified. However the primary responsiblity is to help the person suffering, and the system you gave details of gives hope.

 

and to Sith, its not always as simple as fighting back. If you fight back and lose theres a good chance of a bad situation getting worse.

 

 

for all, the BBC has an excellent website on bullying and its effects which you can read at: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onelife/personal/index.shtml?bullying#topics

if anyones in any doubt as to the effects of bullying go to the section which deals with real life stories and you can listen to the accounts of several people who have been affected by bullying, including a few famous faces.

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"Bullies" are also people, you know. Silly folks, but people nontheless.

As far as I see it, strict punishments would only be a sort of vengeance against their actions, and would only make them feel more unfairly treated and more frustrated against the system (at least I would react that way). In other words, stricter punishments would achieve the opposite of what it should.

 

Why not go to the core of the problem instead? Such as, why are people bullies? Why do they feel like they do? And what can we do to solve this?

That is IMO far more constructive thinking.

 

And no, I've never had problems with bullies.

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Bullies go after people because they want a victim. Groups like someone to pick on, im afraid it doesnt get whole lot more complex than that in a lot of cases Breton.

 

Some people seem ive spoken to about bullying have two very important misconceptions about bullying:

 

1) They believe bullying isnt present in every single school in every single grade/year and that it is often by a group of people

 

2) They believe that behind every bully is some deep seated trauma or personal problem which causes them to act like it.

 

Im afraid not. Bullying is widspread and often has no better reason than to have someone to belittle and pretend to be superior to.

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All it takes is that bystanders stop them and that teachers and school staff punish them as they should be punished.

 

I don't think that criminal records or expulsions are the way to go though.

Damn right. About expulsion, I'm less sure. If bullying can't be stopped, kick the bully out and save the victim that way before he or she gets transferred. Often, it's one or the other, and if it has to be, I say kick out the bad guy.

 

I do disagree with your statement that there should be concern for the bully as well as the victim, or at least i don't think there should be a lot of concern anyway. After all in some cases they cause serious possibly life-long harm. A harsh punishment for such an action is not unjustified. However the primary responsiblity is to help the person suffering, and the system you gave details of gives hope.

Partly yes, partly no. If bullying is a result of the bully being subjected to violence at home, shouldn't the violence at home be stopped?

 

and to Sith, its not always as simple as fighting back. If you fight back and lose theres a good chance of a bad situation getting worse.

Right.

 

Ignoring it or joking, etc. works fairly well, though. For example:

 

Someone tells you something as part of bullying, just smile and go "oh, sorry, are you talking to me? What did you say?" If/when they repeat themselves, go "sorry, didn't catch that..", still smiling. Repeat until bully feels to dumb to go on.

 

That's a very good method there. Make the bully feel like he's not worth getting mad at.

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I always wish that I'd done more for people I saw being bullied at school. We should teach the bullied to stand up for themselves BY EXAMPLE, by demonstrating this ourselves. Instead, teachers and other pupils let bullying continue because in reality they themselves are psychologically dominated by the bullies as much as the direct victims are, whether they realise it or not.

Just as an aside, the logical extension of this concept to the international realm would be that you should support armed intervention in Iraq to oust the suppressive Baath regime and help liberate the Iraqi people.

 

Anyway, school officials should assume a responsibility to intervene in cases of bullying. Making the victim responsible for his or her self defense will only work in specific situations. I agree that school officials tend to use the 'victim should stand up to the bully' concept as an excuse for inaction far too frequently.

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but then you get the bully's mates stepping in, then your mates, then you have to step in every time... then it ends up as chaotic gang warfare... :D

 

I'm not going to go into the iraq thing, as that will derail the thread.

 

I do agree that where it is a choice between the victim and the bully the victim's needs should win out.

 

But if the bully just gets expelled, then goes to another school and bullies other kids, then gets expelled again, then has no qualifications, lots of anger and no prospects then you have managed to turn a kid with some problems into an adult who is likely to be a violent criminal (or a drain on society).

 

Most kids are still salvagable, can still turn over a new leaf, but expulsion tends to be the WORST way to get them to do any such thing.

 

Of course, a system like the one i described above that might actually get them to turn their life around has one big drawback. It costs money and resources. Which i suspect many schools are unwilling or unable to spare.

 

However it must be more benficial and cost effective for society as a whole to "fix" these kids while they are still "fixable" rather than put it off and later have to deal with a much more expensive and damaginf problem.

 

I wish i had done more to stand up to bullies too, but i suspect I also did a minor bit of bullying myself.

 

All kids do. Even the weak ones when they find someone weaker. It is probably to do with the animal thing of establising dominance or something. Most kids grow out of it with no ill effects, some still stay bullies/victims thoughout their adult life.

 

Its the extreme cases that need to be dealt with swiftly.

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Just as an aside, the logical extension of this concept to the international realm would be that you should support armed intervention in Iraq to oust the suppressive Baath regime and help liberate the Iraqi people.

Nice try. Consider all the variables next time you make an analogy:rolleyes: .

 

Anyways, I notice a huge difference in bullying in classes where the teacher actively moves to prevent it. In a class where bullies get demerits (warnings) and detentions, there's no bullying. In a class where the teacher does nothing, there is a lot of bullying.

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I don't know about you guys, but I haven't actually seen or heard about any real bullying or bullies at my school. So in my experience, it's not nearly as widespread or as large a problem as some of you alledge.

 

Sure, there's the occasional idiot, but no one who messes around with others.

 

I don't know why, perhaps it's special of the place I live, perhaps other reasons...but that's how it is.

 

And teachers aren't very strict either, so...

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It'd help if schools didn't have these ridiculous "Zero Tolerance" policies where self defense becomes as great a crime as bullying itself. Doesn't matter if you didn't hit first; get involved at all and they haul your ass to the office.

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Originally posted by Breton

I don't know about you guys, but I haven't actually seen or heard about any real bullying or bullies at my school. So in my experience, it's not nearly as widespread or as large a problem as some of you alledge.

 

Sure, there's the occasional idiot, but no one who messes around with others.

 

I don't know why, perhaps it's special of the place I live, perhaps other reasons...but that's how it is.

 

And teachers aren't very strict either, so...

 

id say your not looking hard enough. Ive heard people say "its not that common in my school" before (including ludicrously at my old school), i assure you, it is. Its not always obvious because people often wont speak up for themselves.

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Tom:

Just because a victim may feel the effects of bullying thoughout their life is no reason the bully should too. That just creates two victims.
This is somewhat silly to my mind.

 

What you seem to be implying with the "two victims" statement is that a transgressor shouldn't be punished in any meaningful way for his or her transgression. Which is overly liberal PC poppycock. If a bully is expelled from school, it shows the other students that:

 

A: If you bully you will be expelled,

 

B: That those who are caring for you (teachers and staff) are paying attention, watching, and protecting you AS SOCIETY SHOULD. This would make them more socially responsible, as they would feel part of society, instead of the outcasts that victims invariably feel themselves to be.

 

just chuck them out and make the situation worse
Expulsion makes the situation worse for the BULLY. That's the punishment aspect, and the point of the exercise. At the same time it protects the good students.

 

you have managed to turn a kid with some problems into an adult who is likely to be a violent criminal (or a drain on society).
You're living in the PC nineties. Criminality is a CHOICE. Many dirt-poor people with no qualifications stay off drugs, and stay away from crime. Being a scally, being an evil scum sucker... is a CHOICE people make. They must be punished for that choice. Prevented from harming others.

 

So a bully gets expelled. So he becomes a mugger of old ladies... Arrest, try, then imprison him. He was always headed that way anyway. Let him eat prison food for a few years. It both punishes him, and protects the public from him.

 

Wilhuf:

Just as an aside, the logical extension of this concept to the international realm would be that you should support armed intervention in Iraq to oust the suppressive Baath regime and help liberate the Iraqi people.
...:rolleyes:

 

You're being extremely silly.

 

Point 1: In THIS thread I've advocated JUSTIFIED responses to barbaric acts. Your beloved war on Terroorrrrrr, doesn't qualify.

 

Point 2: Only a complete ninny would attempt to extend the principle of stepping in to defend a bullied child from a bullying child, with the mass slaughter of innocent Iraqis, the loss of their national infrastructure and the general worsening of their quality of life, ie: Your beloved war.

 

Sith:

Fight back. Someone comes at you, you have every right to defend yourself.
This is unworkable, because as I stated earlier, bullies target those who are physically or psychologically least capable of defending themselves.
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This is unworkable, because as I stated earlier, bullies target those who are physically or psychologically least capable of defending themselves.

Exactly. I know this girl who got beat up all the time in school. Could she "just fight back"? Not a f---ing chance.

 

Just as an aside, the logical extension of this concept to the international realm would be that you should support armed intervention in Iraq to oust the suppressive Baath regime and help liberate the Iraqi people.

I'll actually address that.

 

Invasion of Iraq: 300 000 Iraqis dead. 1100 Coalition troops dead. Millions of dollars in war costs for Coalition alone. Tens of millions in destruction of military, public, and civilian structures, roads, etc. Anti-Coalition insurgency born. Iraqi people far less safe. Condemned by UN, NATO, and most of the world.

 

Stopping bullies: 0 dead or wounded. No cost except besides school budget. No destruction of property. No resulting pro-bully insurgency in school. Student body safer. Anti-bullying programs are encouraged by NATO, UN, and most of the world.

 

See the difference?

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But you're saying that violence is justified in order to prevent future violence. And that someone who is physically more powerful is justified in taking forceful action to prevent another individual from harming another, weaker individual. This is precisely what happened in Iraq.

 

Expulsion makes the situation worse for the BULLY.
Precisely what happened to Hussein when US forces detained him.
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But you're saying that violence is justified in order to prevent future violence.

Are you talking to me? Because I certainly didn't. Please show me where in this thread I said something that gave you that impression.

 

Doing something about bullying does not necessarily equal violence. If I tell a bully who's harrassing someone to stop it and go f--- himself, or if I go to my school's dean to report bullying, is that violence? Hardly.

 

And even if I did advocate attacking someone physically in anything but self-defence, that's still not the same thing as Operation Iraqi Freedom, as it has no collateral damage. It's not like I have to injure a dozen innocent bystanders to defend myself from a bully. However, you needed to kill 300 000 innocent bystanders to take down Saddam Hussein. And self-defence does not equal pre-emptive action, so your analogy is void in either case as Iraq was a pre-emptive strike. It's like me being in a classroom where there is a bully and a person I think the bully wants to beat up, and I walk over to the bully and beat him up without him having done anything. Oh, and if that was to be successfuly, fully compared to Iraq, I'd have to accidentally beat up several others in the classroom, too. Almost forgot.

 

If you were talking to Spider Al, I don't see where he advocates pre-emptive violence, Iraq-style, in his posts either.

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If you were talking to Spider Al, I don't see where he advocates pre-emptive violence, Iraq-style, in his posts either.
Quite.

 

Wilhuf, only the truly ignorant fail to read the posts of those they're "debating" with. Read mine again:

 

"Point 1: In THIS thread I've advocated JUSTIFIED responses to barbaric acts. Your beloved war on Terroorrrrrr, doesn't qualify.

 

Point 2: Only a complete ninny would attempt to extend the principle of stepping in to defend a bullied child from a bullying child, with the mass slaughter of innocent Iraqis, the loss of their national infrastructure and the general worsening of their quality of life, ie: Your beloved war."

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Originally posted by Leper Messiah

Bullies are a real hate of mine. School bullies to be specific. People that select those that are weakest and cant fight back and make them miserable. Physical or Mental attacks, it doesnt matter. Bullies are the scum of the earth. I think that methods of dealing with bullying are pitifully weak, especially here in the UK. The punishment for severe or long term bullying should be the bully (or bullies) being expelled from school at the very least. I personally think that schools efforts to deal with the issue are absolutely laughable, I think it should be a police matter, bullies should be handed a real punishment and im not talking about the pitiful anti social behaviour orders that are impossible to enforce and no effort is made to anyway. Bullies should be left with a criminal record to show for their actions, after all a victim of bullying could carry the effects of the ordeal with them for the rest of their life, why shouldnt a bully have to deal with a black mark of a criminal record?

 

Now you see, I disagree. I think bullying is character building if you're made of the right stuff.

 

You don't have to win, you just have to alternatively cough blood and go to the hospital. One way or the other, you make sure that everyone knows, that you mean buisness, and that anyone who messes with you, is going to end up on the 9'o clock news one way or the other.

 

It's the mentality of "Oh my, everyone should be protected, god that is AWFUL, the primary conditions of REAL LIFE affect CHILDREN".

 

Seriously. People need to get less sentimental and more pro-active to the idea of STOMPING PEOPLE UP THE pack-animal when they get out of line.

 

Someone bullies you? GOUGE HIS EYE OUT. Don't sit around and take it like a kitty-cat.

 

(Naturally, in this cosmic world, there are exceptions. I was refering to cowards with personality flaws, that make up about 85% of the entire group. There are of course people who are being wronged, and can't do anything about it because they have illnesses, or any other type of physical/mental disorders that are _serious_ [none of that New-Age bull**** where the psychiatrist attempts to pin some disorder they pulled out of their pack animal so they could collect their paycheck]).

 

 

Bullies themselves? I think they're sad. Not so much because they're going to be emotionally stumped when real world kicks in, but so much so because they'll be WITHOUT AN EYE when they enter it.

 

 

True story.

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