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The_Maker
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The Sith are an organization. They are not a government. The Republic is the official government. The Sith want to take over the galaxy, but they are like the rebellion from the original trilogy, only reversed. Instead of the good guys (Rebel Allliance) trying to oust the bad guys (The Empire), the bad guys (Sith) are trying to oust the good guys(Republic).

 

Now, Dark Jedi were once members of the Jedi Order. They left the order and joined the Sith. Not all Sith are Dark Jedi. Most Sith, in fact, are not Force sensitive.

 

The Sith will train those whom are rejected from training by the Jedi Order, if they are force sensitive. They may be rejected because of age, willfullness, being headstrong, ext. However, if the Sith believe they may be of use, they will train them. Then, also, they may become Dark Jedi.

 

If they are not Force sensitive, they may still join the Sith. Not as Jedi, bit as cannon fodder. Um, I mean soldiers.

 

One way to think of it is that Dark Jedi are to the Sith as Jedi are to the Republic.

 

I hope I made that clear. If not, I tried my best and maybe someone else may be able to explain it better.

 

Lion

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Originally posted by Darth Melignous

The Sith are a "belief" not group. That is the reason you had "Sith Troopers" back on Taris walking around. The dark jedi are Jedi whom have fallen or started down the dark side path but do not subscribe to that belief.

 

I think that's how good ole' Kreia described it for the exile. ;)

That's how it is now, but that wasn't always the case. Kreia implies that there still some true Sith in hiding however I think that will be difficult to pull off in KotOR III. To the best of my knowledge the last of the true Sith were killed of generations before KotOR took place.
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@Achilles

 

Hey Ach :D I seem to remember one story I heard where the Sith were an off shoot of the Jedi order and were evenutally defeated by the almost exhausted Jedi order. The remaining Jedi exiled the "Rogue Jedi" on a remote planet with a primitive native people known as Sith. They were basically non violent or mild tempered I guess.

 

Left alone the rogue Jedi enslaved the local populace of the planet and liking the name adopted it as their orders own. They had many Sith Lords and Sith Ladies at one time and all varied in temperment. Some of the Sith adopted bright vibrant clothing and such as well as one Sith Master having several or many students. The order was even "structured" like the Jedi are with the counsil and the like.

 

The Sith Jedi of course began warring among themselves and succeeded in Murdering all but a few. Those few (I think it was three) parted never to speak again and adopted the "1 Master 1 Apprentice.

 

From what I remember the actual REAL Sith race was eventually destroyed by their enslavers "The Sith"

 

I always loved that and decided that must be how it happened. Anyone else ever head that too?

DM

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Originally posted by Achilles

Never heard that one, but it's certainly interesting.

It is... and I have never heard of that one as well. ;)

 

My understanding of the Sith was that they were a race who could wield the whole of the Force, Light and Dark sides, with no ill effects...

Originally posted by Achilles

FWIW, the whole "Rule of Two" thing was decreed by Darth Bane IIRC.

Happily, for us PnP RPG-ers, this rule also dies with Palapatine. :D

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Episode 1 - The Phantom Menace official novel by Terry Brooks, somewhere in Chapter 10, says:

 

"The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago.

 

***

 

A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers...

 

***

 

He was alone at first but others from the jedi order who believed as he did had followed him in his study of the dark side soon came over. Others were recruited and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than 50 in number.

 

***

 

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

In the end the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a matter of weeks, all of them died.

All but one."

 

 

 

KOTOR is set 4000 years before the movies. So the 2 Sith orders are different, the one thing in common is the name (not the use of the darkside as in KOTOR even Jedi can draw upon the darkside). And I believe that the true Sith are yet again another offshoot of the Sith.

 

So in the end we might have 6 different organisations, over time, using the name Sith, each with its own goals.

 

 

As for the movie canon of Sith and Dark-Jedi. Asajj Ventress is a Dark Jedi (NOT a Sith) and Darth Sidious and Darth Tyrannus are Sith. The Sith can always only be 2 at one time, a Master and an Apprentice. Dark Jedi use the dark side of the force and obviously are also corrupted by it. So a Dark Jedi is an "evil" jedi while the Sith are a secret society who uses the darkside to gain power.

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Originally posted by Darth Melignous

@Achilles

 

 

From what I remember the actual REAL Sith race was eventually destroyed by their enslavers "The Sith"

 

DM

 

No, the two races mingled together, until there was no distinction between them... It says so in one of KOTOR 1 loading screens

 

 

@motnoir: Those lines talk about the reorganization of the Sith by Darth Bane. It was needed so that the Sith could remain undetected to the jedi... they began relying on stealth rather than in brute force

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Yes and no. The first line of Darth Sidious' reminiscence of the history clearly states:

 

"The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago.".

 

and he also says

 

"A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith..."

 

...meaning a bright spanking new Order, founded "only" 2000 years before the movies.

 

 

The 6 different Sith organisations/peoples in the Star Wars universe are not connected as much as we would like them to.

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Originally posted by stingerhs

last time i checked, if a character was a Sith, it meant they were on the recieving end of a lightsaber swing. no matter who or when it was. :dozey:

A fair amount of dice in the Force Skill Control along with the Power Absorb/Dissapate Energy will alleviate that worry! :xp:

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Originally posted by lukeiamyourdad

So we can guess that the Sith were "extinct" during a period of about 2000 years between KOTOR and this "rebirth" of the Sith order that montnoir is talking about?

 

We definitely need more info.

 

Very interesting discussion.

 

They weren't extinct actually... sometime after the events of KOTOR, there will be a great battle between the Sith and Jedi, where the Sith are edstroyed except for Darth Bane, who founds the new rules of the Sith (always 2, a Master and an Apprentice...)

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I read the definitions from the official site and the Dark Side Sourcebook's history of the dark side:

 

Every Jedi who has embraced the path of the dark side can be referred to as Dark/Fallen Jedi.

The first Dark Jedi to exist were the legendary sith lords you learn about in Korriban.

These Dark Jedi (not yet Sith) were exiled from the republic and found Korriban, a planet which belongs to primitive force senstive people called the Sith. The Sith saw the Dark Jedi as gods and accepted them willingly as their rulers.

The Dark Jedi became the first Sith Lords.

From Korriban expanded the Sith Empire which was successful as the republic until the two met again.

 

Everyone who belongs to the Sith Empire, the Sith Lords, Dark Jedi who fought for the agenda of the Sith and/or learned from the Sith teachings can be considered a Sith.

 

Not every Dark Jedi is a Sith and not every Sith is a Dark Jedi.

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Originally posted by montnoir

Actually, no. Darth Bane is the one survivor, referenced above, in my previous quote from the Phantom Menace novel. Darth Bane lived 2000 years before the movies, not 4000 as to KOTOR timeframe.

 

Well, I never said that the extinction of all Sith except for Bane, ocurred right after Kotor, I said sometime after those events, which could be 5000, 4000, or 2000 years... :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Raven2001

Well, I never said that the extinction of all Sith except for Bane, ocurred right after Kotor, I said sometime after those events, which could be 5000, 4000, or 2000 years... :rolleyes:

Now this is simply antagonising. So I must ask why? This was supposed to be a discussion about Dark Jedi and Sith. Not about who is right and who can't admit he was wrong because he used a certain word.

 

Now, what can I say or admit for you so we can go back to the discussion of Dark Jedi and Sith?

 

Before Darth Bane (and this is specified as 2000 years before the movies - in canon) there were no Sith as far as Sidious is concerned, the Sith from KOTOR are not related to the Sith in the movies. Darth Bane came up with his own vision of the use of the Force and created a sect of Sith, the same sect that we see in the movies. Unless of course, Darth Bane found holocrons or tablets with the beliefs of the old Sith, thus continuing in their footsteps. But as this is yet to be specified in canon, we can only speculate.

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You misunderstood, I was just clarifying what I wrote because I didn't make myself clear on that post. There was no flame/offense intended :)

 

As for Darth Bane: his Sith were not like the old Sith indeed, but only in the "terms of engagement" (old Sith were en-masse, whereas Darth Bane's Sith were only 2 and had stealth in mind...), but, like you said, it is probable that Bane found old Sith Data and continued with their religion... That is the most probable, because not only ALL the Sith seem to have the same vision of the force, and they all have the same goal: the total extinction of the Jedi...

 

Concluding, they seem to be the same people/belief/whatever, although they have different aproaches to their goals...

 

As for Dark Jedi, they surely must be former Jedi that turned away from the Light (most likely becoming Sith). I think that they only defer from the Sith in their origin. A Sith is a Sith since birth and only knows the Sith teachings (ex. Sidious, Maul), and a Dark Jedi began his "Force career" in the Jedi order and later was converted to a Sith (ex. Exar Kun, Revan, Vader)...

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Originally posted by Raven2001

As for Dark Jedi, they surely must be former Jedi that turned away from the Light (most likely becoming Sith). I think that they only defer from the Sith in their origin. A Sith is a Sith since birth and only knows the Sith teachings (ex. Sidious, Maul), and a Dark Jedi began his "Force career" in the Jedi order and later was converted to a Sith (ex. Exar Kun, Revan, Vader)...

Dark Jedi are Jedi that used the dark side and getting corrupted by it. As it is said by Yoda and Obi-Wan, the dark side is simpler, but it ultimately corrupts its user. So the Dark Jedi uses the Force to further his own personal goals, killing and betraying anyone he sees fit. Without following a certain belief. Just wielding the force as he sees fit and ultimately leading to pain and suffering for others.

 

A Dark Jedi isn't necessarily a Sith, because the Sith are force users using the dark side in accordance to their beliefs. The Sith are a religious cult if you will, following a strict code of conduct and having specific goals (among others the complete eradication of the Jedi).

 

The use of the dark side of the force isn't enough to make a Jedi a Sith. Especially considering the KOTOR games, where both jedi and Sith can use the dark/light side of the force, without automatically becoming one or the other.

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