Tolerance means people you don't agree with, too.

[rccar328]

What’s up with the hostility toward Christianity around here? Sure, it’s been around a while, but as time goes on, it just gets worse, to the point that some are showing blatant hatred…and furthermore, it doesn’t make much sense – after all, if ‘tolerance’ is the new be-all and end-all of virtue, why is it so hard for people around here to be tolerant of a viewpoint they don’t agree with? True tolerance isn’t selective, it’s absolute.

 

And besides that, what’s so wrong with Christianity that it has so many around here in such a stink? Because people believe in moral values? Because those same people want to prevent the destruction of moral practices and standards that they believe are important? That they want a future where every moral standard that they teach to their children isn’t subverted by society and the public school system? What’s so wrong with that?

 

Sure, there are Christian extremists out there. There are extremists in every religion, including the religion of secular humanism/moral relativism that so threatens traditional culture (and most, if not all, who show hostility toward Christianity here are members of this religion; a religion is a system of beliefs, and while all do not believe exactly the same, their beliefs are similar enough to warrant such a grouping). The truth of the matter is that Christian extremists by no means represent mainstream Christianity. Consider this:

 

-Most Christians are anti-abortion. However, this doesn’t mean that they want to, or even support, bombing abortion clinics. Most would rather help people considering abortions to realize that there are alternatives to the murder of an unborn child. They want to change current law because they believe that abortion is exactly that: the wholesale murder of a segment of our society. If abortion law instead allowed murder of unwanted persons along racial lines, it would be much easier to be against it. It is only because the children are unborn that the illusion of moral ambiguity exists.

 

-Many Christians want the theory of Intelligent Design to be taught as an alternative to the theory of Evolution in our public schools. I myself support this, and do not see much of a problem with it, especially in light of the fact that neither theory has or can be conclusively proven to date. Some Christians see it as an either/or situation: either Intelligent Design or Evolution. Personally, I do not support this, and I have yet to meet anyone who embraces this viewpoint. And after all, it was not Christianity that started the perceived science vs. theology dichotomy – that lies at the door of popular culture, declaring that “God is dead” in the light of science (in spite of the fact that even to this day, science has done nothing to disprove the existence of God, and has, in fact, caused many scientists to believe in the theory of Intelligent Design simply through the sheer complexity of our planet and universe – after all, the probability that our planet and its plant and animal organisms developed through mere chance is miniscule to the point of being virtually nonexistent).

 

-Many Christians want gay marriage to be (and remain) against the law. This is not because they want to discriminate against homosexuals. It is not because they hate or fear homosexuals. It is because Christianity holds marriage to be more than just a government contract of convenience that two people enter into in order to receive certain social and economic benefits, and to allow people engaged in a relationship that the Bible repeatedly defines as abominable would cheapen the institution more than it already has been. And, in fact, the recognition of the institution of marriage by the government springs directly from its importance in Christianity, lending credence to their concerns.

 

-Many Christians attack such things as Harry Potter not necessarily because of any Satanic influences that these works in particular may have over our children, but rather because they are part of a continuing attack on Christian mores and values that has been ongoing for many decades now. Harry Potter books have been singled out (wrongly, in my opinion) for their endorsement of witchcraft, to the exclusion of other attacks that have been much more degrading to our society’s moral fabric. Among these attacks are:

-Blatant and gratuitous violent and sexual behavior, as well as profanity, on primetime television

-The infusion of profanity and sexual and violent themes throughout popular music

-The saturation of the internet with soft- and hard-core pornography

-The saturation of advertising with sexual innuendo and soft-core porn

-The re-definition by secularists of mainstream conservative Christians as extremists

-The deliberate movement in public schools to combat the teaching of traditional moral values, mainly (but not limited to) the teaching of homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle

 

 

Christianity is and has been under attack by American culture for some time, yet when Christians try to defend their moral and cultural values, they are mocked and derided by the likes of you for trying to stand up for the moral values that have preserved our society for so long…after all, without Christian morals, we would be facing the same kind of AIDS crisis that threatens the continent of Africa. Our government could pass a law requiring parents to abort any child they have after their second, and we would be okay with that, because life would have no value. Disabled and mentally retarded people could be euthanized due to their inconvenience (likely in the interests of ‘preserving the gene pool’) and we would likewise have no problem with this, because without God to give value to our lives, there is no intrinsic value in life except the value that each person subjectively gives it.

 

Our Founding Fathers understood the inherent importance of Christianity, to the point that the first clause of the First Amendment excludes government from getting involved in affairs of religion (and not vice-versa). They believed so much in the importance of Christian values that the Bible was taught in public schools, and many of the founders wrote about the importance of Biblical virtue in bringing up good, moral citizens, in the interest of preserving our society.

 

Christianity was key in the founding of our nation, and it has held extreme importance in its development. Today, as we see the cheapening of Christian morality in our society, anyone with eyes can see the slide our society is taking into immoral oblivion. Consider this: in 1940 (when Christian values still meant something to our society), when teachers were asked to identify the top problems among teens, they said, “talking out of turn, chewing gum, making noise.” In 1990, teachers said, “drug and alcohol abuse, pregnancy, suicide, rape, robbery, and assault.”

 

Throughout our history it has been Christian moral values that have held our society together. Some respect is warranted. And if Christians overreact on some issues (such as Harry Potter), it is likely because Christianity is daily being overrun by a society that views their values as old-fashioned, out-of-date, and unnecessary, leaving Christians to watch the society that they grew up in slide into moral decay. Christians today are fighting a losing battle against a culture that just doesn’t care – a battle to save future generations from the moral degradation that has become such a stain on our culture. You can either be part of the solution, or part of the problem, and through apathy and criticism, too many choose to be part of this slide into moral decay.

[CloseTheBlastDo]

Because people believe in moral values?

 

Nonsense statement. Non-Christians are just as interested in morals as Christians.

Disagreement doesn't mean non-interest.

 

Because those same people want to prevent the destruction of moral practices and standards that they believe are important?

 

..in your opinion

 

That they want a future where every moral standard that they teach to their children isn’t subverted by society and the public school system?

 

Hmm - I'm interested in what your refering to here. Is it evolution specifically, or is a broader 'God is generally undermined at school' type deal...

 

including the religion of secular humanism/moral relativism that so threatens traditional culture

 

Hmm - true enough to an extent. I'm pretty sure the context of the word 'religion' is innacurate, but I get the point your trying to make. And it'd be more accurate if you added 'the individual aspects of traditional culture which are considered immoral by humanism', but whatever. No biggie.

 

True tolerance isn’t selective, it’s absolute.

 

Very true. I'll expect to see you campaining for homosexual unions in the name of tolerance then

 

Most Christians are anti-abortion. However, this doesn’t mean that they want to, or even support, bombing abortion clinics. Most would rather help people considering abortions to realize that there are alternatives to the murder of an unborn child. They want to change current law because they believe that abortion is exactly that: the wholesale murder of a segment of our society. If abortion law instead allowed murder of unwanted persons along racial lines, it would be much easier to be against it. It is only because the children are unborn that the illusion of moral ambiguity exists.

 

Hmm - well won't speak for anybody else, but abortion comes pretty low on my list of concerns about Christian ideals. (Apart from when 'extremists' go killing doctors, but I accept that's extremism)

I agree that abortion should not be too easy an option.

But there IS definelty moral ambiguity (in the sense that there is at least something to be discussed) in the issue (when looking at case by case). Just cos you say their isn't moral ambiguity, doesn't make it so I'm afraid.

 

I'd also check your Bible for instances of God slaughtering kids. Those 'innocents' were different how?

 

Many Christians want the theory of Intelligent Design to be taught as an alternative to the theory of Evolution in our public schools. I myself support this, and do not see much of a problem with it, especially in light of the fact that neither theory has or can be conclusively proven to date.

 

Regardless of any evidence there may, or may not be for Intelligent Design, it can't be taught as 'science' because it is NOT a scientific theory.

it is NOT a scientific theory because it cannot be falsified.

 

As far as I'm aware, creationism / ID is already taught in Religious Studies / Education in many American schools. That's fine, and that's where it should stay.

Leave only science in the science class...

 

Some Christians see it as an either/or situation: either Intelligent Design or Evolution. Personally, I do not support this, and I have yet to meet anyone who embraces this viewpoint. And after all, it was not Christianity that started the perceived science vs. theology dichotomy – that lies at the door of popular culture, declaring that “God is dead” in the light of science (in spite of the fact that even to this day, science has done nothing to disprove the existence of God, and has, in fact, caused many scientists to believe in the theory of Intelligent Design simply through the sheer complexity of our planet and universe – after all, the probability that our planet and its plant and animal organisms developed through mere chance is miniscule to the point of being virtually nonexistent).

 

Well, I'm glad to see your more enlightned than perhaps many other creationists. However, none of what you have said above has any bearing on my last point.

Life starting 'by chance' also has nothing to do with the theory of Evolution - which I guess is what your eluding to. But I'm fairly sure many of your Christians friends would be viewing ID as being fundemetnally 'opposed' to evolution.

 

So tell ya what. You Christians actually get a scientific (i.e. can be falsified) theory together that you all actually agree on, and then we'll talk about evidence, OK?

 

Many Christians attack such things as Harry Potter not necessarily because of any Satanic influences that these works in particular may have over our children, but rather because they are part of a continuing attack on Christian mores and values that has been ongoing for many decades now.

 

Hmm - sorry. This is where you get farcical.

I'm sure Rowling - with her billions - is plotting the destruction of the Vatican as we speak!

 

when Christians try to defend their moral and cultural values, they are mocked and derided by the likes of you for trying to stand up for the moral values that have preserved our society for so long

 

I've seen Christianity mocked a lot - it's true. BUt usually with good reason.

And I'm sure you think you can substantiate your claim that society has only survived because of Christian values, but you'll have trouble doing it to rationally-minded people.

 

The rest of your post - well, not an expert on the Founding Fathers. Some seem to think they were Christian. Some not. But I don't see how their personal beliefs can be used to colour the Constitution they drafted unless they actually included those beliefs in the wording.

..but you Americans feel free to argue about that one

[CapNColostomy]

Meh, it's because Christian influenced politicians have such a heavy hand in deciding what laws and policies people must abide by. Which is not always a bad thing. But to be fair, alot of people don't like having other people decide what's good or bad for them, especially when it's based on a faith that not everyone agrees with. I don't think the hostility is always aimed directly at Christians themselves, so much as Christian politicians.

[El Sitherino]

The largest arguement will always be directed at the majority. Until I see any sign Christianity isn't the majority, I'ma go with that.

[TK-8252]

Just so you know, Rowling herself is a christian, so I don't see how she's part of some conspiracy to destroy christianity or something.

[SkinWalker]

Personally, I've no problem with any religion or other supernatural belief, particularly if the believer cites as reason for his belief that he is comforted, that he simply has faith, or because it "works" for them in providing personal explanation for the universe around them.

 

I do, however, react when believers of gods, aliens, ESP, psi, channeling, and other supernatural silliness claim that they have proof of their beliefs; or if they attempt to impose their beliefs upon others through political means. I'm very opposed to those that attempt to codify their superstitions into public policy which must be followed by those that don't believe or have other beliefs.

 

In the latter regard, Christianity becomes a target for those that would rather religious practices and requirements remain within their cults and not be applied to policies that those of other cults must adhere.

 

I'm certainly not opposed to politicians and government leaders having religious opinions or ideals that they have to live up to. Indeed, I think that if the teachings of the alleged Christ were followed to the letter, the government would be far better place. But I'm very opposed to the tenets of any religion being codified into policy.

 

Anther thing about Christians that I find a point of criticism is the fallacy that they have the market cornered on morals and values. This is an ignorant assumption and one easily debunked by noting the morality and values that exist in the absence of Christianity. The Christian cults are relatively recent additions among the religions and cults of humanity and evidence exists that people of antiquity, or in regions of the world where Christianity was and is not now dominant, had and now have systems of morality and values. Some of these morals and values may differ from those of Christianity, but a great many are the same.

 

It is also a fallacy to believe that in the absence of religion morals and values do not exist. This is usually followed by the fallacious statement regarding the extent to which moral relativism exists in secular society, but, again, this is easily debunked by pointing out the so-called "moral relativism" that exists within those that consider themselves to be Christian. I'm quickly reminded of rccar's comment which states, "most Christians are anti-abortion." But when we look at the statistics, it is mostly Christians that are having abortions (CBR, 2005).

 

Because of Christianity's failure in dealing with social problems within its own religions, I could easily assert that Christianity doesn't work. If Christianity worked, would not the 93% of the nation's populace (Barna 1996) that claim their faith is important to them fail to commit crimes at rates that are higher than those of the non-religious? And when we examine prison statistics we find that 89% of inmates in prison consider themselves to be religious (Clear et al 1992), most of them Christian. It should follow that in a nation where over 80% of the populace is supposed to be Christian, that crime should be low. Is it the fault of the 3-9% of the population that is atheistic and agnostic (Pew 2002)?

 

A fine example of a completely valid reason for criticizing the various cults of the world is when they attempt to assert their beliefs as scientific fact. The Raellians did this with their announcement that they had cloned the first human. A claim they have yet to retract or demonstrate. The fact that they also assert that human gods are aliens and should be worshipped with rituals of sex does little to give credibility to their claims.

 

Another example of this is, of course, the more familiar assertion of some Christians that 'intelligent design' is an actual science. The ignorant assumption that evolution has no conclusions because it is "just a theory" begs that the criticisms of the religious asserters of 'intelligent design' be merciless and harsh. I challenge anyone who wishes to debate the validity and probability of evolution against 'intelligent design' or creation to create a new thread and let's have it out. Evolution is a fact. It really happened. The undereducated see the word "theory" and assume the colloquial definition rather than the scientific one. If you start that thread, I'd caution you against coming to it armed with that fallacious assumption.

 

Rccar also asserts that it "was not Christianity that started the perceived science vs. theology dichotomy – that lies at the door of popular culture, declaring that “God is dead” in the light of science..." I'll agree quite readily that god is not dead. As long as people believe, he'll live on. But I disagree that the alleged dichotomy that exists between science and theology isn't the responsibility of religion. Science, clearly, has its roots in religion. A prehistoric human on the way home from hunting & gathering stops in his tracks and falls to his knees moments after lightning strikes his friend, killing him where he stood. This human knows immediately that his friend angered the gods and knew nothing of electrical theory, conductivity, etc. Overtime, humans learn not to walk in the open during thunderstorms. Eventually, we learn to place iron rods on buildings to route the electricity to the ground rather than let it burn the house down.

 

Science is the process of observation and making inferences from those observations to explain our universe. Religion is often happy with settling for supernatural causes but science looks for empiricism. We see this split of science and theology quite clear in the story of Galileo.

 

I also take issue with rccar's assertion that "many scientists" now believe in the theory of 'intelligent design.' This is simply not true. Indeed, very, very few actual scientists believe in this pseudoscience and fewer still are actually of disciplines that are involved with evolutionary forces. That 'intelligent design' uses an appeal to authority (Nizkor Project 2005) to validate itself is telling. Either their data is empirical and testable or it isn't. The creationists of the so-called 'intelligent design' movement don't publish to the peer-review process. There's a good reason. Their assertions don't hold up (Perakh 2005). Commenting on probabilities in an infinite universe also demonstrates fallacy.

 

With regard to "gay marriage" and the desire of Christians to make/keep it illegal, I find myself wanting to say fine. Keep it illegal in your church. But the concept of marriage isn't a Christian one. It's a human concept. So this is a matter that is up to governments to decide and, to date, no one has given a valid reason to make/keep it illegal. If you think you can, create another thread. I'll be there to debate it.

 

But the bottom line is, if you don't like abortion and gay marriage (neither particularly appeals to me), don't have an abortion or marry someone of your own gender. Why is this so difficult? The answer is easy. Religion confuses it in the attempt at creating an "other," and enemy that can be used to rally believers and unite them, which, in turn, ensures the priestly classes and religious leaders continue to profit (Sinclair 1918). Politicians seek to appeal to the masses (remember, 80+% are believers) in their elections and spin them into real issues, driving cultural wedges in our society, clouding our perceptions to prevent us from focusing on the real issues of the time. Bomb the sh** out of some backward brown people who pose no threat to our nation half-way around the globe? Hey, what would Jesus do?

 

Rccar goes on to cite the many "attacks" on society's "moral fabric," but lets use the math, bubba: 3-9% of the nation are agnostic/atheistic. These attacks are from within the "Christian moral fabric," not from without. And "mainstream conservative Christians" are defined as extreme by themselves. Accepting the mythology presented in Christian literature as 100% accurate-all-the-time-and-with-out-fail is extreme. This same literature states that the Christian god "stopped the sun!" Do you truly believe that? If not, why believe the other mythical stories are completely true? Why not simply accept that these are wonderful myths of proto-historic people who were describing the world as best they knew how. There's plenty of wisdom remaining in this very same literature (the bible). Psalm 119, for instance: "When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things."

 

Humanity has to grow and progress. We cannot keep thinking as the "children' we were intellectually 4 kya just because the stories have remained in the literature.

 

The remainder of rccar's post is likewise replete with fallacy on the alleged dichotomy of Christianity and the "American culture." He paints a picture of "moral decline" and blames "secular society" for it. But again, let's do the math. In The Churching of America, 1776-1990, the authors note that for the last two hundred or more years church membership rates in this nation have risen dramatically! It's gone from just 17% in the 1770s to 34% in the mid-19th century to a well over 60% of the American population today (Finke & Stark 1992). Rccar brings up the Founding Fathers as if deists like Jefferson, Washington, and Franklin, and atheists like Thomas Payne really considered Christianity an important model for our nation and instrumental in its development. Genocide and slavery were instrumental in its development, yet I don't see that we're large proponents of this any longer. Indeed, both of those paragons of immorality were once endorsed by Christianity as well as other religions.

 

So when rccar states, "[t]hroughout our history it has been Christian moral values that have held our society together," I find myself wondering if first generation Africans who were forbidden from the pursuit of happiness and forced into labor at the threat of death or torture of themselves or their families would have agreed with that assessment. Indeed, I also wonder if the Powhatans would agree. This nation of free people once thrived in what's now called New Jersey and Virginia. They've long since been slaughtered and all that remains are a few street and river names from their language. I wonder if the kids at Wounded Knee understood that the massacre of their mothers before their own eyes just before their brains were dashed out by the hooves of horses was all for the greater good of Christian morality?

 

Don't lecture us all on the importance of "Christian morality" until the genocides and terrorism of this set of cults has been reconciled. Don't blow the smoke of "Christian values" up our butts and try to convince us its sunshine as long as Christians continue to commit crimes and atrocities in society and fill our penitentiaries. The BTK guy was a devout believer, right?

 

What would Jesus do? I can tell you what he wouldn't do: he wouldn't join your cult.

 

 

 

References:

 

Barna, George (1996). Index of Leading Spiritual Indicators. Dallas, TX: Word Publishing.

 

CBR (2005). Abortion Facts. The Center for Bio-Ethical Reform

 

Clear, TR et al (1992). Does Involvement in Religion Help Prisoners Adjust to Prison? National Criminal Justice Reference Service, NCJ #151513

 

Finke, R and Stark, R (1992). The Churching of America, 1776-1990: Winners and Losers in Our Religoius Economy. Rutgers University Press: New Brunswick, NJ.

 

Nizkor Project (2005). Fallacy: Appeal to Authority

 

Perakh, Mark (2005). The Dream World of William Dembski's Creationism. Skeptic.

 

Pew (2002). Americans Struggle with Religion's Role at Home and Abroad. Pew Research Council.

 

Sinclair, Upton (1918). The Profits of Religion. Pasadena, Calif.

[Rogue15]

eh, most of the people here are ok w/christians. Disrespect isn't really tolerated here, as that's how most flamewars start, one or both sides of a debate taking something too personal.

 

for instance, I *think* i could get away with saying 'i hate americans, they're so annoying' but if i said something for instance, a member here, say, member1 is american and i say to him or her 'you are the most pathetic american i have ever met'

that could start a flamewar, as it's more personal.

 

as for the nonchristian thing, there are millions of christians around, many are new christians and nobody changes overnight, or that new christian is just trying too hard, or weren't brought up in a good church (pastors can go bad, just like everyone with any amount of power, there's that potential for it to be used for evil), and forgets the reason why they are a christian in the first place, and forget that the reason is belief in Christ, and and love for their neighbor (or whatever their reason is). I think that could be why some of the nonchristians are put off by us, and that's why there's so much controversy and stuff.

 

i hope whoever reads this post made sense of all the above.

[ET Warrior]

I really am not as eloquent as Skin, but basically, I have no qualms with Christians. I have no qualms with most anybody. UNLESS they start bothering me. And that is something Christians are very good at. Whether it's telling me that i'm going to burn in hell if I don't follow their Dogma, or passing laws restricting the freedoms of other people because of it.

 

THAT is what I have a problem with.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Because those same people want to prevent the destruction of moral practices and standards that they believe are important?

Exactly.

When certain Christians defend their beloved values of anti-homosexuality, abortion being evil, and nudity being the devil, I have a problem with that.

 

If those values are fighting the rising divorce rate, combatting crime, et cetera, fine. As long as you realize that Buddhists, Muslims, and atheists have morals, too.

 

Throughout our history it has been Christian moral values that have held our society together.

The moral values you describe (don't rape, et cetera) aren't only Christian values. Atheists, Muslims, et cetera have these rules, too, and the decline of Christianity does not necessarily have anything to do with the rise of crime.

[toms]

I think everyone (especially skinwalker) has answered with pretty much everything i wanted to say. Basically its only the certain brand of christianity that insists on interfering with my life that i have problems with.

 

I did want to pick up one minor nitpicking point that no-one else has mentioned. You say that if Africa had our Christian Moral Framework then the wouldn't have the AIDS crisis over there. Africa has one of the largest populations of christians in the world (the missionaries did their work well), and it is mainly down to this that they have such a high AIDS rate, as their religious leaders tell them not to use contraception. If it wasn't for our aditional money, science etc.. we would have an AIDS epidemic too.. and I suspect that if the religious leaders had had their way then the safe-sex campaigns of the 80s would have been far less sucessful in stopping it's spread.

 

And when you say that science started the attack on religion, you should bear in mind all the scientists over the years who were imprisoned or put to death for pointing out such things as "the sun doesn't move around the earth" or "light can be split into different colours". These men were usually highly religious, and all they were doing was being curious about how god's world worked, and pointing out obvious observations... yet the church often punished them severely for such wickedness.

[txa1265]

I am a Christian, further I am a Catholic. I believe I am a moral person, but try very hard to be neither moralistic nor judgemental.

 

I believe that the various religions provide excellent philosophical frameworks for how to live. Most center on respect for the greater whole (whether you call that deity or humanity matters not), respect for fellow man, respect for nature, and respect for self.

 

It is because a great many people do not choose to show respect for others that we get into the trouble of 'protecting', which in turns morals into moralism. We shouldn't have to protect small kids from being molested, but we do ... and I don't know any serious-minded group that believes that sex between a <5 year old and a >18 year old is either 'normal' or 'right'. But what about homosexuality? Or anal sex in general between consenting adults? Why is it suddenly my business what others do with joint consent in the privacy of their own home.

 

Tolerance means people you don't agree with *ESPECIALLY* - just like with Freedom of Speech, tolerance is easy when we already agree!

 

Mike

[CloseTheBlastDo]

Tolerance means people you don't agree with *ESPECIALLY* - just like with Freedom of Speech, tolerance is easy when we already agree!

 

Very well said txa.

[edlib]

The biggest problem I have is that "Christianity" in this country has become synonymous with "Conservatism." I believe most of the people who are conservative would also be so even if they weren't Christian.

 

Also, it makes it seem that you cannot be liberal and follow the teachings of Christ... which is something I think is an insult, as I like to classify myself as both, and know a great many others who do so as well. I don't think your political and social-issue leanings should have anything to do with your personal morality and your personal path to salvation.

 

I was always taught in church that we should "Be in the world, but not of this world." I was also taught to teach by my example, but that it was impossible to get someone to understand God's laws unless God "called them" and opened their mind first. That since it was impossible for us to save everybody in the world at this time, getting involved with politics and attempting to use the system to try and legislate morality on people who God was not "calling" right now would only cause them to be hostile to you. Morality and salvation are meant to be personal. You can attempt to lead by example, and hope people follow you down that path, but you can't use the secular institutions of the Government to outlaw that which you belive is sin, and force people into a holy life using Earthly law enforcement.

 

So, if I cannot force my views on anybody, then I feel that people should be free to live the live they so choose with a minimum of Government intervention.

 

Tolerance cuts both ways... if you wish for everyone to leave you alone to practice your pious, Christian existence, then you are going to have to accept the fact that the non-Christians of this country are going to expect exactly the same in return.

[swphreak]

My problem with religion [Christianity] comes to play when they shove their beliefs down my throat, and pass laws that impose their beliefs on others (Abortion/Gay rights).

 

If they didn't do this, I wouldn't have a problem.

[toms]

Its interesting to note that the exact same moral conservatives who bemoan the loss of christian morals, the laxity of today's standards and the corruption of today's society are often quick to condemn Islam for its strict moral laws and policies.

(this rightwing conservative lord in the UK for example http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4163484.stm)

 

Yet when you look at a number of african countries that DO practice close to biblical law (death sentances for homosexuals etc..) you find that they are fairly similar to the types of regime that we have in supposedly evil Islamic states. I think it might well be possible to argue that if some clever people hadn't decided to seperate church and state a long time ago we might well be living in Christian states that were just as strict, stagnant and unfree as hardline Islamic/Christian states in the middle east and third world.

 

During the dark ages christianity basically prevented the west from developing any decent science, mathmatics, medicine etc... but the muslims were storming ahead in terms of scientific advances. Then once religious freedom opened up in the christian west we stormed ahead... and almost everything we see today from lights to spectacles, to phones is a result of these early scientific developments. Islam on the other hand became more hardline and has therefore become more stagnant, with very few important scientific breakthroughs in the past 500 years.

So I for one am quite glad we decided not to allow the church to run everything.

 

I'll admit it can sometime be fun to bait republicans and christians, but i'm sure they have just as much fun baiting us. Also as this tends to be a forum for debating theoretical issues I'm sure alot of us are more forthright than we would be in real life... i know i wouldn't wander up to random christians in the street and start harassing them.

I'm entirely tollerant of what they want to do privately in their own time, but i expect them to be the same way towards me. If they tell me I can't do things that are my own choice, then i'll start telling them what they should do in their churches.

[riceplant]

I think that, from reading rccar's first post, that he doesn't really understand what 'tolerance' is. As has been pointed out (and far more eloquently than I ever could), one can not be tolerant of someone's enforcement of their beliefs on another, only tolerant of the beliefs themselves. To draw quite a hideous Star Wars parralel, Obi-wan doesn't saber Han for saying that he doesn't belive in the force. Yes, I know it's terrible, but that's all I've got. I personally have a problem with Religion in general, as I believe that organised religions (such as Christianity, Judaism and Islam) were originally invented as a means to control the masses. I do not believe that any religion should retain the right to codify our laws for us (I have no problems with Bhuddists, for example).

[lukeskywalker1]

People fear/hate/dislike what they don't understand. It does go both ways, but with Christianity it goes a little further. A lot of forums here, when asked, openly admit that they havn't read the Bible. They admit, not only by saying they don't, but by their posts, admit they don't understand. There is a lot of talk about Christianity. Its not all true. A lot of people don't understand the religion.

 

My problem with religion [Christianity] comes to play when they shove their beliefs down my throat, and pass laws that impose their beliefs on others (Abortion/Gay rights).

 

Phreak, last time I checked you were a guy. So... you can't have an abortion. Are you gay? If not, whats the big deal?

 

The moral values you describe (don't rape, et cetera) aren't only Christian values. Atheists, Muslims, et cetera have these rules, too, and the decline of Christianity does not necessarily have anything to do with the rise of crime.

 

The religion part is irrelavent. Islam was born from Christianity, and athiests know what Christianity is about. Not to mention, Islam nor athiesm never played a huge role in this country, at least not as big a role as Christianity. Coincidentally, when people embraced Christianity more "openly" these problems (rape, et criteria) occured less than when people stopped embracing Christian rules. In other words, the problem increased when Christianity was thrown "out the window."

 

As for Skins long post, anyone can claim to be Christian. Its too complicated to explain what a true Christian really is. You can't just call yourself a Christian and be one. You can't just go to a Christian church and you become one. It doesn't work like that! You have to be saved by the Holy Spirit. Its all about the experience.

 

My point is, a lot of people claim to be Christian and are not. When the census comes around, they just check christian on the religon section.

 

In simpler terms... a rhetorical question: Can I be an Atheist if I believe in God?

 

I really am not as eloquent as Skin, but basically, I have no qualms with Christians. I have no qualms with most anybody. UNLESS they start bothering me. And that is something Christians are very good at. Whether it's telling me that i'm going to burn in hell if I don't follow their Dogma, or passing laws restricting the freedoms of other people because of it.

 

Umm, but if you don't believe in Hell, why the anger? I mean, you don't think its there, so in your mind you won't be going there if it doesn't exist. There is no reason to be angry if you seriously don't think Hell exists. But then again, there is that possibility you do think it exists, but you would like to not think it exists.

 

Lets face it, if the two places really did exist, where you pick to go? Heaven or Hell?

[El Sitherino]

Well I don't believe in trolls, but if someone said I looked like a troll I know it's not a good thing. It's all about context. Negative things bring negative feelings.

 

And even if phreak isn't gay, it's still a big deal because it's stupid to oppress a group of people just because you think they're evil. I don't eat carrot cake, but if someone told me it's illegal I'd be damn pissed because it makes no sense and is based on someones personal beliefs. Beliefs not everyone shares.

[txa1265]

To further on what Sith said, there are two contrary arguments at play here, both of which deal with things not directly affecting us.

 

On the one hand, if we are not gay/looking for abortion/minority/whatever, should we be looking to make changes to those who are? I don't think that that true philosophical basis of any of the religions would say we should. Similarly, those consenting adults who are engaging in 'unorthodox' behaviour in their own homes, presenting no danger to anyone else - whould we be looking to 'fix them'? I really don't think we should.

 

On the other hand, if we see those who are being oppressed/repressed/etc, should we act to help them even if it is not of any direct concern to us? I would argue that *that* is the very essense of human compassion, and a large basis of the philosophy of every religion.

 

Mike

[ET Warrior]

Phreak, last time I checked you were a guy. So... you can't have an abortion. Are you gay? If not, whats the big deal?

I am not a mexican, but I would be pretty upset about a law banning mexicans from marrying. Same thing.

Umm, but if you don't believe in Hell, why the anger?

Not believing in Hell is irrelevant, I KNOW what Hell is, and I know they are telling me that I am such a bad person I deserve to burn in a pit of fire for all of eternity after I die.

 

The religion part is irrelavent. Islam was born from Christianity, and athiests know what Christianity is about. Not to mention, Islam nor athiesm never played a huge role in this country, at least not as big a role as Christianity.

So are you honestly saying that it is because of Christianity that we developed morals that are against murder and rape? I'd like you to show some evidence that rape increases when Christianity was thrown out the window.

[TK-8252]

You know what's strange is that christians claim only they have morals, and yet so many serial killers are devoted christians. BTK for example was a leader or something of his church.

[lukeskywalker1]

Not believing in Hell is irrelevant, I KNOW what Hell is, and I know they are telling me that I am such a bad person I deserve to burn in a pit of fire for all of eternity after I die.

 

Thats NOT what Christianity is about. I'll tell you the truth, right here, right now. It doesn't matter how good of a person you are, the nicest person on the planet can still burn in Hell. Yes, it is good to be good. It is good to donate to charity, to help people in need, to stand up for people who can't stand up for themselves. Yes, it is good to preach God's word, it is good to go to chruch on Sunday mornings. But you know what, none of that means you are going to Heaven. None of that even makes you eligable to go to Heaven. The truth is, a Pastor and a Murderer can both be on the same path to Hell. Yes, they are completley different people, the Pastor does nothing but good things, while the murderer is the exact opposite, yet they can both go to Hell. How is this possible you ask? (Im not done explaining, other Christians don't jump on me untill you read my full statement)

 

Before I continue, I will ask you a question ET: Are you as good as the Pastor, who has done everything he can to help people? Are you as bad as the murderer who has hurt and destroyed many people's lives? I don't know you personally. If you think about it, both of those people "deserve to burn in a pit of fire for all eternity" you have to ask yourself: how can a person get into Heaven?

 

I'll tell you: It doesn't matter how much good you do. The only thing that matters, the only thing that can get you into the Book of Life, is accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Knowing Jesus, having a personal relationship with him is the only way to get into heaven.

 

As you can see (or maybe not) I can do all the good things in the world, but if I don't accept Christ, none of it matters. Think of it like a test: There are certain requirements to pass, and everything else is extra credit. Don't get me wrong, being a "good person" and helping others is all a part of the job. You can't accept Christ and still go around doing wrong deeds. When you accept Christ you are expected to change your life, and God can help you do it. He will make you into the kind of person he wants you to be.

 

No one likes hearing that. I didn't either, thats why I did something about it. Its a choice, Heaven or Hell, and everyone has to choose, whether you like it or not. You either accept Christ (by doing that you choose Heaven) or... you can not make a decision and.. sadly go to Hell, I hate saying it. Thats what the religion says. Im really not making this up. I at least hope you understand what I am trying to say. Overall, it means you can't work your way into Heaven, and the only person who can really and truly save you is Christ himself. You can't pay your way into Heaven by doing good works.

 

To better understand how a Christian should be, check out Galations Chapter 5: Verses 22-26.

 

 

So are you honestly saying that it is because of Christianity that we developed morals that are against murder and rape? I'd like you to show some evidence that rape increases when Christianity was thrown out the window.

 

I'll look around for stats tomorrow. Perhaps its just talked about more know, or whatever, or reported on more, because of increased technology. I'll look into it.

 

 

EDIT:

You know what's strange is that christians claim only they have morals, and yet so many serial killers are devoted christians. BTK for example was a leader or something of his church.

 

Read Galations 5: 22-26 Yeah yeah yeah, I know Im shouting off about the Bible. Newsflash, if you don't follow this, you don't follow Christ, meaning... you are NOT a Christian.

 

EDIT2: Another Point, God doesn't care if you are a Church leader. He doesn't care how religious you are. What he cares about is if you have taken the time to know him. Thats what really counts. Everything else is in vein. Also about the Bible verses, Im not saying if you aren't 100% like that your not a Christian. But come on people? A serial killer claiming to be Christian? Lets get real here. What I have said is the ONLY way to be a Christian. Im not just saying it, the Bible is saying it, it is God's word. You can't be a Christian if you don't follow God/Christ! Hence the name, CHRISTian!

 

Like I said before, how can I be an athiest if I believe in God? I can't be! Its impossible! Likewise, I can't be a Christian if I don't follow Christ! Right? You guys really need to drop this "christian serial killer" "Christian genocide attack" bullcrap.

[txa1265]

I'll tell you: It doesn't matter how much good you do. The only thing that matters, the only thing that can get you into the Book of Life, is accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Knowing Jesus, having a personal relationship with him is the only way to get into heaven.

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but that is the kind of Bible-thumping nonsense that gives Christians a bad name. I don't believe it, none of the Priests or Bishops or other church members I've dealt with for the past nearly 40 years have believed it, and I certainly don't teach it to my CCD classes.

 

I believe that it very much matters how you live and what you do - because of the basic teachings throughout the bible emphasize the correct ways for living in a way that emphasizes Jesus golden rule - love god above all else and your neighbor as yourself. Even if you are not Christian those things ring true - love and respect for all of nature above selfish needs, and love and respect for all others. You don't need to read ANY pages in the Bible to get there - that is all man-made crap.

 

Mike

[swphreak]

Phreak, last time I checked you were a guy. So... you can't have an abortion. Are you gay? If not, whats the big deal?

 

The big deal is that it happened. What will be next?

[lukeskywalker1]

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but that is the kind of Bible-thumping nonsense that gives Christians a bad name. I don't believe it, none of the Priests or Bishops or other church members I've dealt with for the past nearly 40 years have believed it, and I certainly don't teach it to my CCD classes.

 

I believe that it very much matters how you live and what you do - because of the basic teachings throughout the bible emphasize the correct ways for living in a way that emphasizes Jesus golden rule - love god above all else and your neighbor as yourself. Even if you are not Christian those things ring true - love and respect for all of nature above selfish needs, and love and respect for all others. You don't need to read ANY pages in the Bible to get there - that is all man-made crap.

 

Mike

 

Aye, your Catholic. Its not harsh at all, I don't let online stuff affect me. Bible thumping nonsense? My main complaint about the catholic church is that they don't follow the Bible 100%.

 

Strangley enough, the Bible contradicts what your saying? While yes, you are right, Jesus said that stuff, but he said more. Ever read John 3:16? Really, TXA, why do we need God if we can just "be good" and go to Heaven. Crap, why do we need Christ? He was sent to save us. But wait a sec, I can be good by myself, right? So uhh... where is Jesus saving? Oh he not.. by being good, I am saving myself... But, hey then whats Mary got to do with anything, if in the long run I keep doing more good than bad, we don't need her either!

 

Don't you see how your ideas are making the whole religion fall in on itself? Well, you might as well remove anything important in it, and your making Christ's sacrifise... pointless.

 

The Bible says Jesus is here to save us. We don't save ourselves, we need him. You can't work your way in, its in the Bible.

 

Hmm... I've said it before, I don't believe Catholics truly follow the Bible. Correct me if I am wrong (I could be) but don't you guys hold Mary a bit higher than Jesus? How can you be a Christian then? Like I said, I can't be an athiest if I believe in God. How can I be a Christian if I don't even believe Christ (the founder of Christianity) is supreme? I also love how you guys are screwing up the name "Christianity" with your crusuades and pergatory. TXA, what about when the Catholic church was charging money to forgive sins. I guess the poor begger was damned?

 

And when you say that science started the attack on religion, you should bear in mind all the scientists over the years who were imprisoned or put to death for pointing out such things as "the sun doesn't move around the earth" or "light can be split into different colours". These men were usually highly religious, and all they were doing was being curious about how god's world worked, and pointing out obvious observations... yet the church often punished them severely for such wickedness.

 

I didn't want to say it- Catholisicm at work. That was the Catholic church, not the Protestant Church.

 

Further more, I'll add, how was the Catholic church being tolerant when they were selling "peices of paper" to forgive sins? How were they loving thy neighbor when they slaughtered the Islamics during the crusuades. At one point there was a river of blood and bodies 3 feet deep. Oh and, while we are at it, if it isn't enough to charge for forgivness (a free gift, in God's view) it must not be enough to charge loved ones at a funeral to get them out of pergatory, right? Really moral, give us money and we will pay. Poor farmer who has lossed a loved one: "Oh I don't have enough money!" Catholic Preist: "Oh... I guess Im out of time for praying" Farmer: "Here $5!" Preist: "Oh... I just realised I had a few spare minutes!"

 

 

Who is really giving Christianity the "Bad Name" as you put it, TXA.

 

Check this out:

Ephesians Chapter 2 verse 8-9

I mean that you have been saved by grace through believing. You did not save yourselves; it was a gift from God. It was not the result of your own efforts, so you cannot brag about it. NCV

 

There is more scripture backing me up... lots more.

 

Whoa, I just realised I missed two full posts:

 

And even if phreak isn't gay, it's still a big deal because it's stupid to oppress a group of people just because you think they're evil.

 

I believe the action is evil, not the person.

 

 

On the other hand, if we see those who are being oppressed/repressed/etc, should we act to help them even if it is not of any direct concern to us? I would argue that *that* is the very essense of human compassion, and a large basis of the philosophy of every religion.

 

But... what if your religion doesn't condone the action? Sure, if someone is being robbed in the street you should do something... but gay marriage? What, do you want me to wed them? There is not a thing I can do.

 

The big deal is that it happened. What will be next?

 

uhh, nothing changed, Gay marriage was never legal... and it still isn't. In fact, I could say you guys are winning because abortion is legal! Whats next? We took the ten commandments out school and removed the statue. If anything, a lot of stuff is being done in your favor.