SWBF II = Messed Up! ("realism" debate)

[PR-0927]

Yes, it's outrageous what they have done, first let me start off with quoting myself from a different thread:

 

TK-8252 is always right. They ****ed up SWBF II so badly with incorrect names of vehicles, weapons, soldiers, etc. They even have Trade Federation Battle Droid Commanders as the...ENGINEERS! They screwed it all up. The TIE Bombers don't even shoot green TIE lasers, they shoot some wimpy red laser. And, the TIE Fighter has missiles...

 

The Galactic Empire also has a Theta-class T-2e Shuttle, when the Galactic Republic from RotS should have it...

 

- Majin Revan

 

 

Well, what else is wrong, well the "Heavy Trooper" for the Galactic Republic is actually Commander Bacara...might as well have a billion Yodas running around as a Jedi unit, huh? You see, there is only one Commander Bacara, like only one Luke, and one Yoda.

 

Also, the CIS has Trade Federation Battle Droid Commanders (yellow markings) as the engineer unit. WTF. Like really. In SWBF, the sniper class droid had red markings. Guess what? It was right (red is security, security would probably snipe). In SWBF II however, the red-marked droids are all of a sudden the anti-armor droids (which should be plain).

 

Now, what else...the Imperial Death Star Gunner is somehow the engineer class for the Galactic Empire...what gives? Those guys never got off their asses, they just sat in seats and pulled levers and pushed buttons.

 

Also, the anti-armor class for the Galactic Empire on every map is an Imperial Anti-Armor Sandtrooper...wait a minute...the word "sand" is in there for a reason. The soldier should be plain.

 

Now, moving back to vehicles...the BTL-S3 Y-wing Starfighter has this odd machine-gun like laser as the gunner's weapon. The developers had it right for SWBF, why not SWBF II...? Also, this weird weapon exists on many vehicles, not just this one, and these vehicles are completely different. They aren't even supposed to have these weapons!

 

Also, the capital ships all shoot green, red, and blue, yet everyone knows that the Imperial captial ships shot only green lasers, and the Rebel capital ships shot only red lasers...again, what gives? Are they trying to create their own version of Star Wars? If so, thumbs down to them.

 

Also, the names of everything are very very vague. The Theta-class T-2e Shuttle is named the "Landing Craft" or something very incorrect (plus, this is a Republic ship...).

 

Now, some people might think that this isn't a big deal. It is. Star Wars is always better when it is technical and more correct. It makes it like you are in the game, not just playing it (like real life, like the real-world military).

 

The new features of this game rock, but it'd be perfect if they had everything down correct. I'm sure TK-8252 agrees with me on this.

 

But, that is why there are mappers like me, who correct everything for their maps. I look forward to mapping for SWBF II and fixing up everything!

 

BTW- Some people might have just gotten information on new stuff from this.

 

 

Thanks!

 

- Majin Revan

[TK-8252]

I'm actually not sure about what they've done to the Battle Droids.

 

It seems to me that they remain mostly unchanged from SWBF, just with a MangaGuard added on. Some screenshots have shown a yellow-marked Battle Droid armed with an E-5, but I think that was just an early prototype for a Commander Droid, then they switched to the MagnaGuard (which screwed it up). It appears to me that the Assault Droid and Pilot Droid still have their skins swapped.

 

But yeah, I'm sure there'll be the usuals coming in saying "stop crying over little details" and yada yada, but oh well...

 

Hope to see you clean up this mess with your modding skills, Majin!

[McCusto]

Who said Battlefront II had to follow exactly like the movies? And who is to say that a trooper looked like Bacara? And how would you know the Imperial Gunners never did anything? They were like in the movie for 1 minute. Maybe you, as should TK-8252 and ET Warrior, acutally try the game before you decide it sucks.

[ParanoidAndroid]

I agree with most of your points Majin. Although I'm not expecting the game to be 100% true to the movies, some of the things they are getting messed up could be fixed so easily. Anyway I'm glad to know that there will be people who will try to fix any mistakes the creators may make in the details.

[Commander Obi-Wan]

Who said Battlefront II had to follow exactly like the movies? And who is to say that a trooper looked like Bacara? And how would you know the Imperial Gunners never did anything? They were like in the movie for 1 minute. Maybe you, as should TK-8252 and ET Warrior, acutally try the game before you decide it sucks.

 

I agree with you.

[^Invader]

Also remember it is beta, so they are still probably trying to iron things out a bit

[ET Warrior]

Who said Battlefront II had to follow exactly like the movies?

If you're going to make a game based off of a movie license...it's typically expected that you remain at least somewhat faithful to your source material. And a little effort is usually appreciated. IF they couldn't be arsed to get names of things, and skins of things correct, then what kind of effort did they put into the actual game itself?

[Redtech]

Erm. correct me if I'm wrong. But rocket launchers? When have they ever been in the films? As for TIE's what's the kill ratio for Ties to X wings? I'd so hate to pilot those hexagonal pieces of scrap.

 

Heck, they had a black rebel in BF1. I believe that token character role goes to Lando I'm afraid. Also, rebel shuttles? Don't see any in the films (unless we're counting those big transports).

 

Also, snipers, nah. Recon Stormies have bikes and poor piloting skills, that's all. Also, blasters are pretty much insta-kill no matter the calibre of weapon, unless you're a hero. I don't see rebel tanks or the Clone Tank for that matter. The AAT was a Trade Fed tank, not a CIS one. Also, take out the command ships and you kill all droids that they're responsible for, practically. Also, Ewoks should be insta-kills or extremely damaging to Storm trooper and YOU DO NOT get blown into the air when an AT-ST shoots at you.

 

Thermal detonators are not used as grenades. No gun has a used scope (besides sandpeople rifles), Wookies did not join the alliance. The Republic didn't invade Naboo, the Gungans can't throw those emp-balls easily, the Naboo royal Guard have poor weaponry, the Sandpeople are not ones for fighting a war, they're secretive nomads.

 

Rhen Var is EU. AT-AT's are unkillable except by tow-rope. Every AT-AT shot is an instakill to anything.

 

In the clone wars, regardless of armour thickness, you get shot, you die, vehicle or not. Combat occurs at near melee ranges only and they're ALL troopers, no specialists and few command officers in token "safe" locations.

 

Sorry, I know the list is not exhaustive.

 

Just to sum up. I believe the classes should be for BFront2: Soldier (restricted to ground levels), Pilot (Restricted to space levels). I think that about covers it and that the levels should be Endor, Hoth, and the Ep 2/3 planets. Because in the films, that's where the Rebel Armies and Imperial Armies fought on the ground, while the Clone wars were far more active. The space levels are Coruscant, Yarvin, Endor.

 

I think we can agree that if the game was like that, it'd be much truer to the films.

[Jan Gaarni]

We can also agree that that's the poorest attempt against having it more like Star Wars (note, it's Star Wars, not the films that are being discussed here ) ever presented here.

 

Was a good chuckle though.

 

I give it a 9 for trying.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Who said Battlefront II had to follow exactly like the movies?

Hmmm, let's see. Maybe whoever decided it should be based off of the Star Wars universe?

 

Part of making a product based on a universe is researching that universe. Star Wars game designers have a long and proud tradition of making very inaccurate games (the X-Wing series were not too accurate, and the Rogue Squadron series were a disaster accuracy-wise).

 

If you're not going to research what you are basing your game or movie or comic book or whatever on, then you probably shouldn't be basing your product off of that universe in the first place. Make up your own universe and feel free to put in whatever you want.

 

Well, what else is wrong, well the "Heavy Trooper" for the Galactic Republic is actually Commander Bacara...might as well have a billion Yodas running around as a Jedi unit, huh?

Here I disagree. Who says it's not just that the heavy troopers have the same weapon and armour as the commander (although it sounds very far-fetched).

 

And how would you know the Imperial Gunners never did anything?

Re-read his post, please.

He meant that they didn't do any "engineer things", they sat in seats and fired weapons, monitored monitors, and did "techie things".

 

But it's at least better than having pilots be engineer/medic hybrid:p (dangit, Wedge, get out of that X-Wing and get back here! We need medical support!). Engineer, OK. Medic? Nah.

 

The capital ships all shoot green, red, and blue, yet everyone knows that the Imperial captial ships shot only green lasers, and the Rebel capital ships shot only red lasers...again, what gives?

Not to mention those weird yellow thingies fired by the Alliance's "dish turrets" (forgot their name:p) on Hoth.

 

But yeah, I'm sure there'll be the usuals coming in saying "stop crying over little details" and yada yada

Let's hear it for Nostradamus (just look at the post directly below his:D)!

There should be a cheat code that unlocked fan boy 'bots so that I could massacre them all.

 

Critisism is vital to any title and whoever goes "WTF St0p teh wh1ning teh game r teh 1337:mad:!!!11111" are sabotaging the improvement of the title. The beta testers' job is to critisise the game so that when the gold version comes around, the problems are gone. What part of that is so hard for you fan boys to understand anyway?

 

Thermal detonators are not used as grenades.

Actually, I believe they might be. Although it's never done in the movies, admittedly:p, they certainly look light enough. Using them large-scale in battle, though, sounds far-fetched to me.

 

No gun has a used scope (besides sandpeople rifles)

Actually, a lot of guns in Star Wars have scopes. I remember how Galactic Conquest had scopes for all these weapons, even... Pistols ("I shalt pwn u n00bz with my sniper pistol of doom!!1111"). Those were the days:)...

 

The Sandpeople are not ones for fighting a war, they're secretive nomads.

Exactly.

 

To which I add: No one would be dumb enough to run around in the streets of Mos Eisley during a full-fledged battle, not even Jawas! And Jabba wouldn't just sit there and watch while a gun fight erupted between rebels and imperials in his throne chamber! Get them the Heck out of there!

 

AT-AT's are unkillable except by tow-rope.

Not that Rogue Squadron-induced idea again! That's akin to saying that the only way - period - to stop a Tiger tank is to put some dynamite in a sock, dip it in tar, and plaster it onto the tracks - just because that's how it was done in Saving Private Ryan!

 

Geez, then the only way to destroy Jabba's barge is to fire at it with its own gun, and the only way to kill a rebel Jedi Knight is to chop off his hand - he's totally impervious to flames, gas, grenades, crushing walkers and anything else.

 

I hope you see the fallacy in your generalizing logic here.

 

AT-AT walkers should be impervious to lasers and blasters (like tanks should), but proton torpedoes (which are anti-capital ship weapons) and other heavy munitions should easily wipe them out.

 

I'm sick of playing Rogue Squadron and seeing that snow speeder turn up whenever the AT-AT does. "Ditch your heavy bombers that can penetrate a star destroyer's hull, we need the primitive armed tugs and their über tow cables!!111". Sigh.

 

Also, Ewoks should be insta-kills or extremely damaging to Storm trooper

Yeah, 'cause it's not like rocks and arrows bounced off of their armour in the movie and the imperials were slaughtering the Ewoks (except from some log/rope kills). But sure, gameplay>Realism - a game where stormies take several high-energy blaster kills to wipe out, but get killed when an arrow snaps in two upon hitting their armour plating would be fun indeed. Especially for the imperials. Especially if the rebels can trade their useless blasters for the 1337 rocks and bows of teh pwnage:rolleyes:.

 

The levels should be Endor, Hoth, and the Ep 2/3 planets. Because in the films, that's where the Rebel Armies and Imperial Armies fought on the ground, while the Clone wars were far more active. The space levels are Coruscant, Yarvin, Endor.

Or maybe something new and innovative, seeing that those maps are found in almost every single game?

 

I'm not saying that you should not include those maps, but what's so wrong with EU, creativity, and fresh ideas?

[Redtech]

We can also agree that that's the poorest attempt against having it more like Star Wars (note, it's Star Wars, not the films that are being discussed here ) ever presented here. Was a good chuckle though. I give it a 9 for trying.

So, can you tell me, how that is wrong, considering that it would make SWBF as true to the films as you can get? I think TK'd throw a fit if you couldn't at least counter-argue. That would make it so true to the films that it would be pretty much bang-on, and I fail to see how you could disagree. Hold on, got more to mention:

 

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry Deagle, long post again.

 

Reffering to thermal detonators:

Actually, I believe they might be. Although it's never done in the movies, admittedly, they certainly look light enough. Using them large-scale in battle, though, sounds far-fetched to me.

The argument is to make the game more like the films, thermals weren't used in the film, so in the apparently "perfect" SWBF, they wouldn't be.

 

Actually, a lot of guns in Star Wars have scopes. I remember how Galactic Conquest had scopes for all these weapons, even... Pistols ("I shalt pwn u n00bz with my sniper pistol of doom!!1111"). Those were the days...

Games are EU.

 

To which I add: No one would be dumb enough to run around in the streets of Mos Eisley during a full-fledged battle, not even Jawas! And Jabba wouldn't just sit there and watch while a gun fight erupted between rebels and imperials in his throne chamber! Get them the Heck out of there!

Yeah, although I doubt they'd have "urban riot" mode. I mean, too many people would complain it's unrealistic to have a battle in a city with tons of civvies in it (the point being they should have evacuated.) Also, urban combat= non-canon.

 

Not that Rogue Squadron-induced idea again! That's akin to saying that the only way - period - to stop a Tiger tank is to put some dynamite in a sock, dip it in tar, and plaster it onto the tracks - just because that's how it was done in Saving Private Ryan! Geez, then the only way to destroy Jabba's barge is to fire at it with its own gun, and the only way to kill a rebel Jedi Knight is to chop off his hand - he's totally impervious to flames, gas, grenades, crushing walkers and anything else. I hope you see the fallacy in your generalizing logic here. AT-AT walkers should be impervious to lasers and blasters (like tanks should), but proton torpedoes (which are anti-capital ship weapons) and other heavy munitions should easily wipe them out. I'm sick of playing Rogue Squadron and seeing that snow speeder turn up whenever the AT-AT does. "Ditch your heavy bombers that can penetrate a star destroyer's hull, we need the primitive armed tugs and their über tow cables!!111". Sigh.

Just commenting on the films. In those, well, you know the results, no need to argue the point.

 

Also, Ewoks should be insta-kills or extremely damaging to Storm trooper. Yeah, 'cause it's not like rocks and arrows bounced off of their armour in the movie and the imperials were slaughtering the Ewoks (except from some log/rope kills). But sure, gameplay>Realism - a game where stormies take several high-energy blaster kills to wipe out, but get killed when an arrow snaps in two upon hitting their armour plating would be fun indeed. Especially for the imperials. Especially if the rebels can trade their useless blasters for the 1337 rocks and bows of teh pwnage.

Well, the films had the happening. Sorry, but the rebels ultimately win. So maybe in a "realistic" BFront, the rebels do have the major advantage of Endor. Think of it as playing "invasion mode" in Unreal Tournament 2004, where it was almost unwinnable due to the swars of enemies. I guess that's what it's like being a Trooper.

 

Or maybe something new and innovative, seeing that those maps are found in almost every single game?

 

I'm not saying that you should not include those maps, but what's so wrong with EU, creativity, and fresh ideas?

 

And the best way to convince someone to agree with you is to say the exact opposite of what you really meant.

 

I'm going to highlight a good point you made, if you don't mind. What's so wrong with EU, creativity, and fresh ideas? And I think we have an understanding of the minds behing Pandemic and the reasoning that they decideded to diversify Star Wars so much. Now, looking at my previous post, you'd be hard pressed to say that as far as "Movie realism" goes, that'd make Battlefront 2 spot on. But as has already been mentioned at least twice, you don't want the games to be bang on like the films, you want diversity. Deagle, you quoted mainly events that are EU to the films, and so aren't based on the films at all, but are INSPIRED by the films.

 

As an example, how does anyone know that Lucas didn't want thermals to be nuclear, or not? Who cares? We now have a Star Wars universe of dedicated writers and artists of many types who have written and described in a way that we expect them to be.

 

In a game like Battlefront, we expect there to be classes, right? But were are they coming from? The EU, of course. The whole game is an exercise in EU. Stormies never fought as soldiers. CloneTroopers never had specialists in the films, but we DEMAND and EXPECT in a class based game that there would be specialists and that StormTroopers are backed up by other military specialists.

 

We DEMAND and EXPECT the games not just to be of the films ultimately.

 

Fair enough, little details like mis-naming and mis-skinning are stuff to note, but at the end of the day, there were only 3 classes in the Star Wars films,(pilot, soldier, cannon fodder) so trying to justify 5+ in a game like this is immensly difficult and it's to Pandemic's credit that they attempted it.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Well, the films had that happening.

No, it has arrows and rocks bounce off of the storm troopers. Some of them fall over, but none of them are shown dying.

 

Sorry, but the rebels ultimately win.

Because Chewbacca hijacked an AT-ST and conned the Imperials into opening the shield generator bunker's blast doors. That's got nothing to do with the going of the Ewok-against-Imperials battle.

 

Games are EU.

Yeah, well, they were like that in the movies, too, weren't they? I didn't mean to use GC as a source.

[Redtech]

Stop being picky, please. If they've fallen over after being attacked, they're dead till proven otherwise (it's a movie tradition. I mean in War of the Worlds some people might just have been injured and floating down a river with a load of corpses). If Chewie was fighting for the rebels then his actions were the actions of the rebellion, therefore Rebels=win. Battlefront is currently using Jedi-Knight inspired Dark Troopers though, interesting.

[Jan Gaarni]

So, can you tell me, how that is wrong, considering that it would make SWBF as true to the films as you can get? I think TK'd throw a fit if you couldn't at least counter-argue. That would make it so true to the films that it would be pretty much bang-on, and I fail to see how you could disagree. Hold on, got more to mention:

Are you kidding me?!?

 

I'm not gonna waste time trying to counter-argue that drivel you presented.

 

Come on!

 

I got better things to do.

[Redtech]

Well, I win then.

 

I really should play more games and less online-ing. Anyway, you should have read the glowing yellow text near the bottom.

[Jan Gaarni]

Sure, if it makes you feel better, I'll let you win that one.

 

I'm not really sure what ignited that post of yours though, nor am I sure what you hoped to accomplish with it.

[Redtech]

It doesn't make me feel better. But heck, if people can waste energy trying to change a game that wont (versus people who would get it no matter what) then I can waste time double guessing everyone.

 

Anyway, you can guess I'm not a conventional thinker, by any means!

[ET Warrior]

there is of course one main fallacy in all of your arguments, in that you're arguing for making a game that isn't fun, but strictly adhering to the rules of the movies, which is not at all something that's being argued for.

 

Yes, make the game fun, make it a video game. If all star wars video games were realistic, Jedi Knight would be easy as cake, since any attack with a lightsaber would instantly kill anything.

 

We're not saying "Recreate the movie exactly as is you fools" What we're saying is "Stop just making crap up if you're TRYING to recreate the star wars atmosphere" MOST of what they're implementing has already BEEN created in some form or another.

 

But whatever, you think what you think.

[PR-0927]

No, you all, the game should be made from real EU and the movies. Of course there are black Rebels, not just Lando! Thermal Detonators are used as grenades too (Class-Es are).

 

The "small" things are major. I mean, c'mon, Imperial AT-TT Commanders as Imperial Officers (on non-AT-AT maps)...I really hope that they iron this outof the Beta!

 

TK-8252, with your help, I'll make SWBF II what it should be, once the tools are released.

 

- Majin Revan

[McCusto]

Ok, if you guys this game is anything but Star Wars, take a look at at JWG.. . . .err. . .SWG. I don't care if this game isn't exactly like the movies. Who said it had to be?

[ParanoidAndroid]

I don't think anyone expects the game to be absolutley 100% true to the movies, but that doesn't mean that they can just go make the imperial officers uniform that of a snowtrooper or somthing as equally innaccurate. I think everyone expects a certain degree of similarity to the movies, some parts of SWBF do this well, others not so much.

[clonearcman]

Well thing were wrong from pretty much from the start, but i didn't thing this much! I would say that i could careless about the terms as long as i get to play but that is just to far. The team that made the stuff acts like they just started watching the movies and then guessing names and looks for different soldiers. My reply is OMG !

[Jan Gaarni]

Majin, if you take a better look at General Veers' battle gear (source: ESB, Hoth assault), you'll find a remarkable similarity to the battle gear the officers in SWBFII is wearing.

[PR-0927]

Basically, here is the statement to summarize my feelings on every and any SW game:

 

Use your imagination for Star Wars until it contradicts the laws, rules, or other items set for Star Wars in the movies, books, shows, and games.

 

 

So, make up stuff until it is incorrect. Then, make it correct. I have no problem with a Rebel LAAT/i (kinda like my ILAAT/i in my maps). It was never shown, and no books, movies, games, or shows said that it couldn't exist. They just need to name it right and make it fun to use.

 

 

- Majin Revan

[zerted]

The developers made the game with requirements set down by the company. The developers are not the people who wrote the books, the story line, or the movies. They can do whatever they want with the game.