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Has anyone stood up to the cheaters yet?


MxBxZ
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They're not really cheaters, they're just mod makers. ;)

 

And yes, tons of people have bashed, argued, debated, flamed, and offered constructive criticism to slider, master hex, chosen one and everyone else that I know of who's made an admin mod like that with abusable stuff (other than the guy who made dc mod, I don't know if his is even popular enough that people care).

 

slider has actually improved his mod significantly in the last two versions, so now I'd say it's no longer abusive. I may not agree with his choices stylistically or gameplay wise, but overall it's not the abusable mod it used to be. And the grapple hooks and jetpacks apparently aren't part of the normal gameplay either, but I could be wrong about that.

 

Also the "infinite force" of which you speak is actually just g_forceregentime. People set it to 0, so your force recharges completely in 5 seconds. This is because a large number of players are extremely lazy, HATING to wait for their force to recharge (they've never heard of "resource management" and "strategy"). You don't need a mod to do this.. and I'd guess that a majority of noob admins do this. I don't know of slider's mod's default config uses below 200 anymore, but it certainly doesn't use 0 anymore (again thanks to people complaining to him).

 

The forceregentime 0 thing DOES screw up the force balance, it encourages spamming, and makes instant use powers (like lightning, drain, heal, push, pull) much more powerful. People generally HATE spamming and whine about it all the time, and yet they don't realize that their desire for infinite force mana is what creates the problem in the first place! ;)

 

So yeah, blame the admins now, as really only older versions of JA+ still have the abusive problems.

 

We could get slider in here to answer your questions personally, but I'm satisfied this is how it is.. from what I know from talking to him and others.

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The base game is fine as it is. It doesn't need grapple hooks and the like. At the moment, however, I find myself using Xmod. The abusive commands are silly, but at least I don't have to use them - and Xmod allows you to disable/enable any modification it includes. I just use it for bug fixes and a few minor changes.

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JA+ actually makes the game more balanced. The Jetpacks aren't really all that powerful (I have run out of fuel over a cliffside more than once) and Grapple Hooks make you a sitting duck, if you are not careful. :)

 

...You've got to be kidding me. Jetpacks and grapple hooks are always used to cheat death. Someone throws you off a ledge? Grapple right back up! Need to run away from that person kicking your ass? Just jetpack away!

 

Not to mention that any skill required to navigate the map is not used anymore, because instead of planning careful leaps, all you have to do is jetpack and grapple around.

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No need to flame. :tsk:

 

But seriously, JA+ is MORE balanced? Than basejka? I find that hard to believe. After all, he added all those single player moves, which were never intended for online play in the first place (the NPC's don't care if you beat up on them after all), and a jetpack is a serious advantage over a person without one (now if everyone has one fine but bear in mind all but one of the maps were not built with them in mind! if it takes you to heights greater than force jump 3.. forget it).

 

One can enjoy a mod like that fine, but saying it's more balanced than basejka is highly questionable.

 

Now you might say, well a jetpack with limited fuel is like force jump with limited mana. Okay, except that you can use it to hover and go much higher than Force Jump 3. If EVERYONE gets one for the whole map, then everyone is still on the same level playing field, so no big deal there. A grapple hook on the other hand.. what limits are there on its use? It seems like you could use that forever...

 

With those two abilities, what good is using Force Jump anymore?

 

And each to his own, but those drastically change the gameplay. If a person wants to preserve the dynamic of the original game, they'd want to do without those. But if everyone has both grapple hooks and jetpacks, then the game wouldn't be "More balanced" (assuming it was unbalanced to begin with) because everyone is still on the same level as before (ie: it wouldn't make up for any previous inequalities).

 

Anyway, JA+ has the "fighting dimension" which is the default. That's where you do everything like basejka. And the admin can send people to the "Honor Dimension" where they play the new JA+ way (with all that stuff). A "punishment" for people who break the honor rules is to send them back to the "normal" dimension.

 

This is how it's done now, instead of as it was in the past, which was to "punish" people for real or imagined infractions of the "honor rules" (whatever those might be).

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The base game is fine as it is. It doesn't need grapple hooks and the like. At the moment, however, I find myself using Xmod. The abusive commands are silly, but at least I don't have to use them - and Xmod allows you to disable/enable any modification it includes. I just use it for bug fixes and a few minor changes.

 

Agreed with Sith:

 

OJP > Xmod2

 

Although Xmod2 surely appeals to some of the disgruntled JK2 purists so they can have their flip kicks and old special move mechanics and damage values and mana-less special moves back. Other than the abusive commands, my only gripe with Xmod2 is the adjustable gun damage values (RedSlushie has the same). While this sounds like a good idea on the surface (wow! fully customizable weapons!), this has the potential for chaos. When one learns how to play a game, one learns how the weapons and stuff work with the overall dynamic. When the weapons are changed in a mod (say like Lugormod or Moviebattles 2, whatever) then you learn a new set of weapons, etc.

 

But if your mod really could have random weapon values, you have no idea what you're getting into when you join, and you have no way to master things unless you play a lot on the same server (and assuming the admin of that server doesn't just change things again on a whim). Plus they could easily unbalance the game by making pistols uber over all other weapons or something like that. In a gametype like Siege, this would be absolutely horrible and screw the whole thing up. So there's the thing. If you have a mod like that, you have to choose NOT to use certain features in order for it not to suck. Better to just not have those features, because so many admins can't be trusted (unfortunately).

 

Still, Xmod2 is only used by a few servers, and those people may be truly dedicated (the "noobs" just go for JA+, and that's no longer a criticism of JA+, it's just the truth... because "everyone knows about JA+" so it's always the first one that people choose) and may not "abuse" it. Ditto for Red Slushie. It's just the potential for abuse is high, and that annoys me. If the features aren't helpful, there's no need to have them... anyway, there's my rant for the day. ;)

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All right, all right! I meant to say more fun. OK? You OK with that? More fun? I like it, OK? We all alright? Thanks Kurgan. I hate flame wars. I could think of a few things to say... forget it. Sorry I made you upset, MxBxZ.

 

Wait, there's GUNS in JA? Hey, you learn something new everyday...

 

:lol:

 

Much as I love the Saber Staff, when you need to take out saberists at long range, how can you compare with the Flechette? Maybe the Stouker or the Heavy Repeater, but the Repeater and Stouker use ammo real fast. And the Jedi-Killer has the ability to throw grenades, which totally beats the others. Even hardcore saberists use guns. There is no other way. When you round a corner and see a huge firefight, do you charge into the middle with a saber? Of course not!

 

MxBxZ, I am not an expert, true, but let's face it. Jetpacks are too sluggish for my taste (easier to jump) and the Grapple Hook? Please. Riding those is a good invitation to get capped.

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All right, all right! I meant to say more fun. OK? You OK with that? More fun? I like it, OK? We all alright? Thanks Kurgan. I hate flame wars. I could think of a few things to say... forget it. Sorry I made you upset, MxBxZ.

 

Hey, that's all you need to say. ;) I hope I wasn't flaming anybody...

 

Much as I love the Saber Staff, when you need to take out saberists at long range, how can you compare with the Flechette? Maybe the Stouker or the Heavy Repeater, but the Repeater and Stouker use ammo real fast.

 

Don't forget the Merr Sonn, though it's more effective at medium range, I agree.

 

And the Jedi-Killer has the ability to throw grenades, which totally beats the others.

 

Yeah but they are SO easy to dodge (unless you're a crack shot at medium-close range). You can waste all your ammo and not have a single grenade hit them if they don't want to be hit.

 

Even hardcore saberists use guns. There is no other way. When you round a corner and see a huge firefight, do you charge into the middle with a saber? Of course not!

 

Roger that. Hardcore saberists, as opposed to "honorz" saberists, who refuse to use any other weapon, even when it would help them (and often start whining when their saber fails them in those situations!).

 

MxBxZ, I am not an expert, true, but let's face it. Jetpacks are too sluggish for my taste (easier to jump) and the Grapple Hook? Please. Riding those is a good invitation to get capped.

 

I think his main concern is that these features allow you to escape falling deaths, and so make the use of Grip and Push necessarily less powerful and advantageous. They also let you save mana by using them to navigate, rather than by use of Jump. They'd making sniping much easier because you could get to those locations much faster.

 

I know it's a different game, but in Battlefront 2 the flag carrier is unable to use Force Jump or Jetpacks while holding. ;)

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OJP > Xmod2

I love the bug fixes in OJP. While I like the bots in some ways, the way they use katas annoys me a lot. And there are many other forced 'features' that I dislike. As for Xmod, everything is customisable. All I'm using it for are bug fixes, detailed MotD, and one small change (which doesn't really alter gameplay). The thing I like about it is that I can disable other 'features'.

 

It's just the potential for abuse is high, and that annoys me. If the features aren't helpful, there's no need to have them... anyway, there's my rant for the day. ;)

Agreed. I despise all these abusive commands.

 

how can you compare with the Flechette? Maybe the Stouker or the Heavy Repeater, but the Repeater and Stouker use ammo real fast. And the Jedi-Killer has the ability to throw grenades, which totally beats the others.

The Flechette, eh? My gun of choice is the Imperial Heavy Repeater. It also has the ability to throw grenades (more or less) - I personally prefer how they explode-on-impact to the Flechette's explode-after-time (if you miss your target). Also, the Repeater can be used at a longer range, while the Flechette is pretty much a close-range weapon. If you're up close, why not use the Saber?

 

Even hardcore saberists use guns. There is no other way.

Indeed!

 

When you round a corner and see a huge firefight, do you charge into the middle with a saber? Of course not!

I have seen far too many people do that. They then complain when I gun them down - "dont u want 2 hav fun?? y use big gunz?"

 

All right, all right! I meant to say more fun. OK? You OK with that? More fun? I like it, OK? We all alright?

I'm sure the changes of JA+ could be fun every now and then, but I find it incredibly annoying how 99% (more or less) of servers use this mod. It's almost impossible to find a good basejka server now - to play the game as it was actually supposed to be played. When I finally do find a basejka server with human players, they end up leaving because I beat them. Very annoying.

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I love the bug fixes in OJP. While I like the bots in some ways, the way they use katas annoys me a lot. And there are many other forced 'features' that I dislike. As for Xmod, everything is customisable. All I'm using it for are bug fixes, detailed MotD, and one small change (which doesn't really alter gameplay). The thing I like about it is that I can disable other 'features'.

 

Yeah, but you gotta admit, kata spam accurately emulates a lot of the styles of some real players we've both met. ;) J/K Anyway, Lath and I have both suggested that Razor improve their move repetoire when he has the time...

 

Just out of curiosity, which "forced" features are you talking about that you don't like?

 

Yeah, I like many of the features of Xmod2, it's just that the whole ability to customize EVERYTHING means that you never know what kind of game you're getting when you join. There's such a thing as too much customization. If I shoot somebody and then realize that my gun has been nerfed, then I have to change my entire playing style. And most admins can't be trusted to balance the things well that they suddenly start changing. It would have been more work but what Hex probably should have done is have several "templates" of preset levels of weapons and moves and then let people pick from them, rather than make them all freely adjustable. He could have releasd the source and then people could have modified it in the source to their liking, but it would have stopped every joe admin from deciding to make his favorite gun or move uber and ruin everything else.

 

The Flechette, eh? My gun of choice is the Imperial Heavy Repeater.

 

It depends on the situation of course, but I used those two guns much more heavily in JK2 than in JA. In JA you've got the concussion rifle (which, sadly is rare among the maps) and the Merr Sonn, which, thanks to more plentiful ammo, is much more useful a weapon.

 

It also has the ability to throw grenades (more or less) - I personally prefer how they explode-on-impact to the Flechette's explode-after-time (if you miss your target).

 

I think you mean to say "splash damage" and I agree. Again, it depends on the situation. The secondary repeater is a lot easier to Force Push back in the attacker's face, but it has a greater chance of hitting something.

 

Also, the Repeater can be used at a longer range, while the Flechette is pretty much a close-range weapon. If you're up close, why not use the Saber?

 

Both guns are somewhat crappy over long ranges, because of their decreased accuracy (though the Flechette is probably slightly more accurate over long range, its rate of fire is so much slower... though certainly its grenades can be lobbed over a huge distance with the proper angle).

 

Why not use the saber? Well, you may not have the time to switch to the saber and use it at the last second, or you may not even have one! (or you might suck with the saber and prefer not to use it over guns, or have sucky defense, etc).

 

Not using guns and still doing fine is possible, but it's really hard. You have to be #$@% good in order to do rely soley on the saber (and force) vs. people who use everything, unless these people utterly suck. In CTF this is actually quite possible, as a flag carrier, since you're mostly just running around anyway. In Siege this may be your only choice, depending on your class. In FFA with everything on however, it's foolish just to use the saber, because you won't get kills as fast as somebody who can use everything, and you'll fall behind and end up losing (assuming victory is your goal of course!).

 

I have seen far too many people do that. They then complain when I gun them down - "dont u want 2 hav fun?? y use big gunz?"

 

Yeah, unfortunately, they've been bitten by the "Jedi never use anything but the saber" brainbug. I mean on the one hand they often say "well sabers make this game unique, I bought this game so I could be a Jedi, blah blah blah" you've heard that argument right? Well, in a way it is mostly true, but on the other hand its perfectly clear that Raven designed this game for more than just saber hacking, so if you play that way you're not actually playing the way it was intended... so one shouldn't whine about it if others don't and spoil their "fun." Such people can (and should) join/host a sabers only server and then they need not worry. ;)

 

I sometimes feel sorry for these guys and oblige them a saber challenge, after which they usually leave.

 

I'm sure the changes of JA+ could be fun every now and then, but I find it incredibly annoying how 99% (more or less) of servers use this mod.

 

Everybody keeps quoting this number, but it's wrong! According to ASE, only 51% of servers use it. The percentage has ranged over the past year anywhere from as high as 60% to as low as 45%. But it's never been 99%!

 

And people have tried in the past to argue that if you only include "active servers without bots" that JA+ has the 99% figure. But they forget that JA+ has its share of empty or bot ladden servers.

 

It's almost impossible to find a good basejka server now - to play the game as it was actually supposed to be played.

 

No it's not. All you have to do is look for a post by "Kurgan" ("Lathain Valtiel"!) look in his sig, and copy the IP down. ;)

 

Okay, technically it's OJP, not basejka, but the GAMEPLAY (which matters) is basejka and there's no abusive commands or "honorz" there. Meatgrinder is pure non-stop carnage as it was always intended!

 

When I finally do find a basejka server with human players, they end up leaving because I beat them. Very annoying.

 

If you find Antilles, OnlyOneCannoli or Lathain Valtiel (or me, on good days, j/k) on our server, you definately won't have them leaving just for being beaten (if you CAN beat them that is, lol!). Vote kicking is disabled, and we have plenty of regulars who can dish it out as well as they take it.

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I'd be willing to join a server like that. I suppose the secret's out, I'm not very 133t at the game at all. The best way to get good is to play those who are better than you. And not on a server where you are called "pathetic". You may have heard of my recent Team FFA game (to test out if my repaired JA game worked). Right after a fellow Blue Teamer sabered me, I respawned near a Red Team Red stancer. He tried that move where you jump in the air, and land a single chop which hits the ground. I simply Forward-Rolled out of the way, and he calls me pathetic! Ha! That move was pathetic.

 

Anyway, I sabered him good, and quit. I don't play with those who say phrases like that. But I am far from good. I'd love a chance to get better, and have that person understand that I cannot be expected to be 133t. That would be nice. But I have not had good luck lately. :(

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Anyway, Lath and I have both suggested that Razor improve their move repetoire when he has the time...

I have, too. It would certainly be a great improvement.

 

Just out of curiosity, which "forced" features are you talking about that you don't like?

I have said this before - things such as TrueView and RGB sabers, which, while you don't have to use them yourself, you have to be in a server where other people can use them. This means that you have to see the RGB sabers - and the TrueView is a potentially gameplay-altering 'feature'. Which I'm uncomfortable with.

 

Yeah, I like many of the features of Xmod2, it's just that the whole ability to customize EVERYTHING means that you never know what kind of game you're getting when you join. There's such a thing as too much customization.

Indeed. Chances are, I myself wouldn't actually join another Xmod server. But it will have to do for now. I can at least give the player some idea of what they're getting via the server name.

 

I think you mean to say "splash damage" and I agree. Again, it depends on the situation. The secondary repeater is a lot easier to Force Push back in the attacker's face, but it has a greater chance of hitting something.

Yes. I called it a grenade as I was referring to StaffSaberist's statement that the Flechette's grenade "totally beats the others". Also, a lot of players never manage to Push the orb back. And with the greater chance of hitting, it's great for knocking people off bridges and the like. I personally feel that it's far superior to the Flechette's secondary fire in most situations.

 

Yeah, unfortunately, they've been bitten by the "Jedi never use anything but the saber" brainbug. I mean on the one hand they often say "well sabers make this game unique, I bought this game so I could be a Jedi, blah blah blah" you've heard that argument right? Well, in a way it is mostly true, but on the other hand its perfectly clear that Raven designed this game for more than just saber hacking, so if you play that way you're not actually playing the way it was intended... so one shouldn't whine about it if others don't and spoil their "fun." Such people can (and should) join/host a sabers only server and then they need not worry. ;)

Indeed.

 

Everybody keeps quoting this number, but it's wrong! According to ASE, only 51% of servers use it. The percentage has ranged over the past year anywhere from as high as 60% to as low as 45%. But it's never been 99%!

When I said "more or less", I meant that it was a rough estimate (that reminds me, I need to get ASE). As in, the majority of servers use it. If you go and take a look at a random server, chances are, it's JA+.

 

No it's not. All you have to do is look for a post by "Kurgan" ("Lathain Valtiel"!) look in his sig, and copy the IP down. ;)

OJP isn't basejka. And I meant finding more than one server, as you're supposed to be able to.

 

Okay, technically it's OJP, not basejka, but the GAMEPLAY (which matters) is basejka and there's no abusive commands or "honorz" there. Meatgrinder is pure non-stop carnage as it was always intended!

Yes, Meatgrinder is a good server. My problem with it is that it doesn't host one dedicated game type (variety is nice, but I'd prefer seperate servers for each gametype). I usually like to play CtF, but when I go to check Meatgrinder, it tends to be hosting Holocron FFA, or Siege. When I wish to play a Siege game, it tends to be hosting TFFA. ;)

 

If you find Antilles, OnlyOneCannoli or Lathain Valtiel (or me, on good days, j/k) on our server

What name do you play under?

 

you definately won't have them leaving just for being beaten (if you CAN beat them that is, lol!).

That's great. But I can certainly take on the better players of the game. It would be a nice change to be killed for once.

 

Vote kicking is disabled, and we have plenty of regulars who can dish it out as well as they take it.

That reminds me about something else that really annoys me on Meatgrinder. The automatic team balancer. But I believe I've brought this up before, so I won't go in to more detail about it.

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Yeah. I thought perhaps they are movie purists (since these other colors do show up in the EU, except for black)... but even then it doesn't make sense, because the default game sabers are not all from the movies (we never see orange or yellow). So they're JA saber color purists... very strange indeed!

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Pfft, there are great colors not in the movies. Have you ever seen a teal saber? Then again, I may be biased, since strangely only the most wise saberists I've ever seen think of teal (Hail, Blind Moradin! Your skills in Promod will not be forgotten!).

 

My own personal color saber is in the Lucasfiles ATST Pilot screen, and I dare say it looks nice.

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I have said this before - things such as TrueView and RGB sabers, which, while you don't have to use them yourself, you have to be in a server where other people can use them. This means that you have to see the RGB sabers - and the TrueView is a potentially gameplay-altering 'feature'. Which I'm uncomfortable with.

 

I'm not sure about this, but I thought that you could use TrueView even if you were not on an OJP server, as long as you were running OJP Basic on your end. After all, nobody can tell that you're using first person view but you. And you could use RGB sabers on a non-OJP server, and nobody else would see them but you, at least in theory. Why is TrueView "game altering"? It's merely visual. The camera just zooms in on your blade instead of being pulled back.

 

In fact, in basejka you can use the cg_fov cvar to change your view already. Change it to a certain low number and it looks pretty darn close to TrueView. The only thing that changes is the "eye position" (vertical, as opposed to straight zooming in like fov, IIRC). So whether you knew it or not, people could already do this before TrueView, it was just more annoying to do it manually.

 

Indeed. Chances are, I myself wouldn't actually join another Xmod server. But it will have to do for now. I can at least give the player some idea of what they're getting via the server name.

 

Well the same is true of OJP, and even moreso, since it doesn't let you alter the damage values of the guns. Of course there's only 2 OJP servers, and only 3 Xmod2 servers, with the same number of total players among them.

 

Yes. I called it a grenade as I was referring to StaffSaberist's statement that the Flechette's grenade "totally beats the others". Also, a lot of players never manage to Push the orb back. And with the greater chance of hitting, it's great for knocking people off bridges and the like. I personally feel that it's far superior to the Flechette's secondary fire in most situations.

 

I dunno, I see more people pushing the secondary Repeater back than pushing the secondary flechette back. I figure it has something to do with the ease of doing so (and doing so repeatedly). They each have their strengths and weaknesses. I admit that I too favor using a certain set of weapons and powers, but I'll never say that a certain one is "useless" or that one can reasonably rely on just one, unless you're facing noobs. ;)

 

I just know that when facing decent players, they seem expert at dodging my secondary flechette, but often fall victim to my secondary repeater. Go figure. It could be I just suck with the secondary Flech anymore. ;)

 

 

When I said "more or less", I meant that it was a rough estimate (that reminds me, I need to get ASE). As in, the majority of servers use it. If you go and take a look at a random server, chances are, it's JA+.

 

Get Qtracker. Well, get them both. ;)

 

51% is a majority, but a very slim one. Not even close to 99%! True it depends on where you live. Maybe in your area, 99% of the servers you can join without major lag ARE JA+. But I'm speaking as a whole, of all the known servers.

 

OJP isn't basejka. And I meant finding more than one server, as you're supposed to be able to.

 

Right. basejka is 1.01 with no mods. However, name one instance (other than the new game modes JM, CTY and Holocron!) of changed gameplay in OJP Basic. OJP has 2 servers. ;)

 

Yes if you want more than one server your choices are more limited, but you still don't have to play just JA+.

 

Apart from JA+ (the biggest mod), the next biggest number of servers I believe are still basejka.

 

Yes, Meatgrinder is a good server. My problem with it is that it doesn't host one dedicated game type (variety is nice, but I'd prefer seperate servers for each gametype).

 

Well that's a problem I guess. We don't have the resources to host 6-10 servers. Who does? But name a gametype we don't cover (other than the two dueling gametypes). In fact, we make an extra effort to cover the gametypes that most other servers ignore. So I figure we offer a little something unique, even while we preserve the core gameplay.

 

I usually like to play CtF, but when I go to check Meatgrinder, it tends to be hosting Holocron FFA, or Siege. When I wish to play a Siege game, it tends to be hosting TFFA. ;)

 

Ask me in private and I'll send you a list of the current map cycle. You'll always know when to come in for CTF! Due to feedback we've actually limited our CTF much more than before. It used to have a much higher capture limit and longer time limit, but some people got bored I guess. We had to dumb it down for the noobies, mostly. ;) People got so intimidated by the hardcore CTFers that would dominate.

 

What name do you play under?

 

Kurgan, unless I'm lurking, and then you never know!

 

That's great. But I can certainly take on the better players of the game. It would be a nice change to be killed for once.

 

Oh believe me, you'll get killed on Meatgrinder, a lot! Unless you play at some weird hours the rest of us don't.

 

That reminds me about something else that really annoys me on Meatgrinder. The automatic team balancer. But I believe I've brought this up before, so I won't go in to more detail about it.

 

Yeah, we've all asked Razor about that. He's working on it. I can actually turn it off. But I figure I get more whines with it off then with it on, so I choose the lesser of two evils. ;)

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Honestly the biggest problem with the auto switcher is that it wipes out your score. If it didn't do that (say if it just subtracted one or zero points), people would be a lot less likely to complain. I've told Razor this, but I guess he's got too much else to do.

;)

 

What really needs to be done is it needs to be fixed, but that could be a nice way to ease the transition until it's completed. I know some other mods have added the feature (what happens to your score when you're switched).

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I would like a mod that fixes a couple of things:

 

1) In Duel maps, my name will jump 7 spots on the waiting list, then get stuck there until I would normally move. It's kinda odd, and I'll get banned off a game for it one of these days.

 

2) I'd like to have the Bots play a little more like humans online do. I mean, they never use Grip! Imperial Officer barely uses a lightsaber, he just throws thermal detonators, even when I'm hacking away with the Saber Staff. So we both blow up. The JA version of the suicide bomber... :D

 

Not really a bug fix, but I always thought Det Packs were weak, since you have to keep them out to detonate, making you a frag target. I'd like those Dets to be Proximity Mines, instead. That would also make players think twice before laying multiple ones down next to each other...

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