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Tyrion
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This is a reply I made to another forum in response to attacks on American border patrols, which lead to a discussion on what should happen to Illegal Immigrants. Some denied the effectiveness of the wall; some felt that it would never work, some felt that bullets and landmines would be the ideal solution for repellment.

 

And so here it is:

 

I'm disgusted at the opinions of some here, as they've truly lost track of the principles of America. These illegal aliens, they're humans too. But what do you suggest? We shoot and blow them up! That's certainly no way to treat civilians, for any reason.

 

What horrible things have the Mexicans done to us? Have they looted our homes and raped our children and struck terror into our hearts? No! All they've been guilty of is simply finding a better life, and I'm glad to say that America nutures such aspects. The fact they work for lower wages isn't of their fault; the employers are the ones who should be at blame. They're the ones exploiting them. They're the ones saying Mexicans don't have to live at the same standard as every other American. The Latinos can't do anything but accept; Mexico is so much more corrupted and desolate than America. What do we complain about? The fact that they're trying to find a better life; one filled with life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

What do we complain about? That they're lowering our lives to give themselves sustenance. Such a sin. And why do we want to shun them away? Because they're not Americans. Is that what we've developed into, the very sort of society that we declared independence from? One where we hold our heads on high and state that such foreigners are barbarians, unworthy of our glory? Is that America?

 

On the other hand, I actually do support some sort of border control. At least, until they've become citizens. If only because illegal immigrants have both an ill-understanding of our law and they won't pay taxes. Even then, with the latter we give tax exclusion from American citizens who live at the monetary levels immigrants also live at, so I wonder at the difference. However, I do not condone the use of such savage violence against the same men and women as our fore-fathers.

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I think that people dislike illegal immigration simply because it's, well, illegal. To solve the problem, the US needs to go to the heart of the source of it. As far as I know, it takes forever for a Mexican to get the required papers, visas, etc to come to the US legally, so the US should do the obvious thing and 'lightly' pressure the Mexican government to relax the paticular items that make the process take so long. At the same time, they should tighten the border with more patrols, thus hopefully discouraging those who want to cross over the border illegally. I don't know if this would solve the entire issue, but it would be a step in the right direction.

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Yeah, better border security, reform the corrupt INS and create stiffer enforcement of penalties against corporations who exploit immigrant workers.

 

The trouble with the hot-button topic of immigration is that usually one side will claim you're racist if you want any restrictions at all (as if the only possible reason to want to restrict immigration is that you have an irrational hatred of "mexicans"... as if those were the only immigrants), thus leading to the alternative of no restrictions. For years people argued that borders are impossible to patrol, but during 9-11 we had stories that our "borders were sealed." How did they manage that? So apparently, it's possible.

 

I'm all for giving people a chance in the land of opportunity. Right now it's a nightmare... If people go through the proper channels and become respectable citizens, I say bring 'em on in. Shame on the companies trying to make a fast buck off of their desperation.

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My opinion: There's a reason it's called 'illegal.' If they're not even going to try to get in legally, well, why should we let them in illegally? Yes, they're people. They should be treated with respect. They also, however, should at the very least follow federal law - one which they obviously know about since they are trying to sneak across the border.

 

Don't get me wrong - I have respect for many of these people. They're hard workers, and do things that a lot of the more stuck-up (so to speak) citizens will not. They're valuable to have. I just think they should persue entrance to the country through legal means.

 

That attack on the border patrol was, AFAIK, done by drug smugglers in the case you mentioned. I've no doubt that the government is already taking steps to beef up the security in that section. It was some supposedly ex-mexican military working for the cartels to protect drug shipments. I don't see what that has to do with whether illegal immigration laws should be relaxed or not, even though the cartels are responsible for a lot of the illegal immigrant importation as well.

 

I agree with you though - land mines etc, are not anywhere close to an acceptable solution.

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Give it 20 years and the us citizens will be trying to get across the borders into mexico to get jobs... so I wouldn't recommend land mines ;-)

 

Seriously though, in a global economy, where products and services know no borders, its fairly daft to make such a fuss about a lot of people daring to come into your country to do crappy jobs. Heck, why not just outsource allt he jobs to mexico anyway??

 

The funny thing is that, when i traveled around the world, almost every country was saying "we are full". The uk was saying it (which has one of the highest population densities around), but so was the US (which is empty in the middle), australia (which is patently empty) and even new-zealand... which has like 12 people in the whole south island. This means I always end up thinking its more about press & politician generated fears than about actual problems.

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As far as I know, it takes forever for a Mexican to get the required papers, visas, etc to come to the US legally, so the US should do the obvious thing and 'lightly' pressure the Mexican government to relax the paticular items that make the process take so long.

 

Eer, those particular items are mainly American immigration restrictions... Can't really see how you can change that by 'leaning' on Mexico...

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My only complaints about illegal immigrants is this.

 

To sum it up:

The families of 11 immigrants who died illegally crossing into Arizona from Mexico have filed a $41 million claim against two federal agencies, saying the government's refusal to put water out in the desert contributed to the migrants' deaths.

 

Yeah... I'm going to break into BestBuy, but I cut myself badly and get an infection. I know, I'll sue BestBuy for not providing a first aid kit.

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My only complaints about illegal immigrants is this.

 

To sum it up:

 

 

Yeah... I'm going to break into BestBuy, but I cut myself badly and get an infection. I know, I'll sue Best Buy for not providing a first aid kit.

 

Quoted for a truth that is almost impossible to believe when told with words. And, of course, quoted to show my anger and sadness that it has come to this.

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Eer, those particular items are mainly American immigration restrictions... Can't really see how you can change that by 'leaning' on Mexico...
My bad. The point I'm trying to get across is is that the US can't just be leniant and let more illegal immigrants cross the border; they need to nip it in the bud to curb the tide.

 

@ StarWarsPhreak's story: That's just... pathetic. :disaprove

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What's worse is that Phreak's lawsuit will probably be granted because the government doesn't want to seem anti-immigrant/Mexican/racist.

 

I've never really understood how 'racism' works exactly. it seems to me that minorities play that card way too often either as a way to get back at people they don't like or to just attack someone...

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Well it doesn't help that people stigmatize any negative feeling toward anyone that happens to be of a non-white ethnicity.

 

I really could care less about illegal immigrants, the jobs they take are jobs no one wants. When was the last time you saw a legal, native citizen apply for a job to clean up **** on the side of the road? Never. This whole "they take our jobs" thing is bunk, that's outsourcing.

 

My only real problem is it instigates morons into action, which causes innocent people to get hurt, much like myself.

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Well, that's just another example of how perverted the American legal system has become where it relates to lawsuits. I'm not really surprised about it, and won't be surprised if they win. What does worry me is that this seems to be spreading across the Atlantic, along with what, for want of a better word, must be described as American 'culture'. People here in the UK are now trying for the same kind of ridiculous lawsuits that pass in America.

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Immigration... ahh, the wonderful issue of letting people in to the land of opporitunity.

 

In my opinion, the country was founded by immigrants, fueled in the early years by immigrants, and made a living off of immigrants. Why should we try to restrict immigrants when our contry was build off of it?

 

I like immigrants, they do the jobs that no person who's lived here will do. Great.

The ILLEGALS I have issue with becuase they are leeching off a system that they are not paying into. In some way, we need some provision to let a apprehended illegal to gain legal status once aprehended.

 

THat, and a better boarder control along the southern boarder. that is key.

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Immigrants. My family has had trouble with them ever since we came to America.

:D! Awesome!

 

I like immigrants, they do the jobs that no person who's lived here will do.

Look, there are immigrants and there are immigrants. "Immigrants do the crappy work" is just a too broad statement. I know what you mean, but narrow it down a little.

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Our high standards of life (and the fact even poor families probably have dvd players, tvs, etc..) have been built on the cheap labour and products of both imigrants and cheap labour in the 3rd world. Its hardly surprising they look at our comfy lifestyles and want to come and join in.

 

The trick is to make a workable system that allows them to come and gain some of the benefits without having to be illegal (which i would suspect would be both worse for them and more likely to involve them in crime).

I'd have thought a temporary quota system or something could be thought up that culd be made to work. Heck, the US could even spend half the money they spend on trying to keep them out (plus the taxes they get from those they let in on the quota system) setting up schemes that allow them to work from over the border in some way.

 

Of course, if any politician suggested such a sensible measure then the press and unions would jump on them for "giving away american jobs", "being soft on immigration" etc.. :(

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Let me give you a real world example mmkay?

 

I'm a search consultant with a retained search firm.

 

We did a search with a rather large semiconductor company who shall remain anonymous.

 

We ended up filling the job with a computer scientist from Mexico. The whole deal almost fell through because of all the red tape to get this genius up here.

 

At the same time, 100's of illegal immigrants came across the border to the open arms of major corporations employing them at slave wages.

 

In short, I vote to shut out all illegal immigrants and make it easier for productive members of society to become citizens. How do we do this? Deportation, immediate deportation and bannished (no citizenship ever) if they offend again.

 

We have laws and if I'm going to follow them, so will everyone else.

 

I love Mexican's! But the "progressive elite" call me a racist for saying this, even though their oppinions only help the corporations they swear to oppose.

 

Laughable.

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When you have people living in poverty, and others over an imaginary line living in luxury, they are going to be willing to risk almost anything to get over that line and try and get a better life.

 

If it could be organised properly, so they could get temporary permits, or so there were "trade zones" over the border where US companies could employ people it would be much better.

 

On a side note, after the race riots in paris and the other french cities, we now have 1000s of white youths driving to Sydney's ethnic districts to attack ethnic kids. But then again, australia is very racist... they also have a government that takes an insanely hard line on immigrants... and i can't help but wonderif that attitude implies to people that its ok to pick on them.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4521442.stm

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When you have people living in poverty, and others over an imaginary line living in luxury, they are going to be willing to risk almost anything to get over that line and try and get a better life.

 

 

You'd be amazed how the people outside of the western world imagine our lives. It's full of flowers and everyone is happy.

 

Getting through legal means is not always easy for these folks. I remember stories from the refugees of the Vietnam war. Almost everyone wanted a ticket for the US. Not that many got it. You basically had such a huge list of requirements to meet that the regular poor vietnamese man and woman could not get through. They invited the rich aristocrats in though.

 

I'm not saying that I condone illegal immigration, just saying that it's not that easy to get in legally.

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There is on french optpost on the north of africa. It is absically a military compound, surrounded by razor wire, and people die or are injured trying to get in every night. Then they patch them up, sned them back, and then they try again. Similarly lots die trying to use rafts to cross dangerous stretches of water... I can't really imagine being in a state where I would repeatedly risk injury and death simply for what i percieved as a better life (unemployment, below-minimum wage servitude and ghettos)... but it is clearly a very strong driving factor.

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Perhaps a bigger problem than "taking our jobs" (which is an argument from poorer people in this country losing their already low paying jobs to a desperate illegal who will work for far less, I guess because they don't understand their rights and they're afraid they'll be "sent back" if they rat out their "employer") is the outsourcing of high paying jobs to other countries, like computer jobs to India.

 

I can understand that companies want to save money and get the best qualified people, but essentially they could care less if all the people here, immigrant or native born, starve and die. The libertarian minded may have an issue with this, but here's an issue where I'm in favor of some heavy-handed government regulation to get reform the immigrant situation. The corporations are welcoming in the illegals to be exploited, and giving away the good jobs overseas. So in the end it's the "native born" Americans who get screwed over. No wonder they're angry...

 

Back to the race issue, I agree that the "race card" is often overplayed for political gain. That's a bad thing.. it's crying wolf essentially. While racism exists, too much of this makes people think that all minorities are whiners who complain and sue rather than take responsibility (which in itself is a racist mindset, but this sort of thing may just strengthen some people's latent racism). I've heard that often the more overt racists in American history have been poor whites. The native born white Americans feel that their "crappy jobs" are being stolen by immigrants who often happen to be (in this case), non-white. So in their minds I'm thinking they begin to associate Mexican with "stole my job." I obviously don't agree with them, but I can see perhaps why the connection exists.

 

And they'll be upset if their job is taken, regardless of if it's by a legal or illegal immigrant. But the point is that the low paying jobs are given to exploited illegals and they're paid even less. It's simple exploitation of the poor by the wealthy. So despite the overt racism of the poor guy losing his job, it's the subtle racism of the corporation willing to exploit that's the worse evil, in my opinion.

 

If the people are checked out, trained, paid well, etc. and everyone given an opportunity, then I'm really not upset about it. We should only take in as many people as we can integrate comfortably without destroying our economy. That just seems like common sense. Of course common sense isn't always so common...

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