Views on Jedi

[adamqd]

"only the strong survive" doesn't technically mean strong physically. In the Sith sense, it's more the one with the most power. In order to have the most power, your master must die. And if you're too weak for frontal confrontation of the physical sorts,(like David and Goliath) the alternative is smarts...which Palpatine had. So Palpatine was a weak, smart guy A.K.A. "nerd".

 

Did you hear that from the dark lord himself? Never the less cowardess is weakness whichever way you look at it.

[Darca Lar]

Did you hear that from the dark lord himself? Never the less cowardess is weakness whichever way you look at it.

 

Its common sense...

[adamqd]

Its common sense...

 

I'm agreeing with you! I'ts just you said it like it was gospel, not IMHO, or probobly, thats all

[Darca Lar]

Ok, cool.

[Darth Avlectus]

Sith by design are portrayed evil and behave in like fashions.

I do wonder, however, if things were a little different (and I suppose they could be) some ways of the sith could be...wel NOT evil. Creative. Like in a different set of circumstances, the beliefs held are basically the same, but the way they are carried out are completely diferent. The jedi being evil and the sith being the good guys. I heard of and even saw mentioned in an earlier posting here there is a novel or something that portrays palpatine as the good guy. (Would andbody know what that is called BTW?)

 

All novels and the like aside. I really wonder if there could be a certain circumstantual role reversal were it not for the values on both sides being so fixed and fine tuned......well....... as fine tuned as anything can stay for about 25,000 years. The whole jedi marriage thing is debatable.

 

......As an example, we see how attatchment has lead jedi to disaster. How can DEtatchment lead to disaster as well? I've thought of a few rough ideas, but I wnat someone else to also think of ways that detatchment could be twisted around. I'd always though that too much detatchment could lead to indifference and dispassionate dispositions. Disloyalty.

 

A very cold mentality, almost as evil as sith have been known to become despite their attatchment and passion...of course theirs end up being selfish most of the time anyway; I don't truly know of any selfless sith. Darth Plagueis saved the ones he cared about, yes. However, like padme said, "at what cost?" I did give my explanation earlier about how I bleieved plagueis achieved creating life. In a nutshell: at the cost of all other life. Draining the energy out from the rest of the universe... Like a plague. This is 'just' my opinion. Why do I believe this?

He could have been keeping those he cared about alive and safe for (unbeknownst to him) selfish reasons. (If anyone agrees or disagrees, I'll hear it out.)

 

He probably meant well and maybe was even a 'good-hearted' man with a bleeding heart.

 

Attatchment vs detatchment is another one of those grey areas requiring just the right amount of balance and delicacy.

[SilentScope001]

I heard of and even saw mentioned in an earlier posting here there is a novel or something that portrays palpatine as the good guy. (Would andbody know what that is called BTW?)

 

The Case For The Empire.

 

A very cold mentality, almost as evil as sith have been known to become despite their attatchment and passion...of course theirs end up being selfish most of the time anyway; I don't truly know of any selfless sith.

 

Kreia prehaps? Even then, you could argue that she is indeed selfish, as her love for The Exile is really a love for her teachings.

[Darca Lar]

The reason most Jedi fall to their emotions leading them to the dark side is because their master's forbid it and so the Jedi are not trained in controlling their emotions so that they CAN love the way they would like to.

As for Darth Plagus, judging from the story his former student, Palpatine told it's obvious that he's the one who created Anakin, who had no father.

[Jediphile]

The Case For The Empire.

 

Very amusing article. However, I doubt the author even believes half of what he says. Some of the arguments are laughably easy to unravel, and he obviously could have made a far stronger case had he so desired. IMHO he clearly did not.

[SilentScope001]

Very amusing article. However, I doubt the author even believes half of what he says. Some of the arguments are laughably easy to unravel, and he obviously could have made a far stronger case had he so desired. IMHO he clearly did not.

 

Even so, it might be showcasing that it is possible to defend the behavior of the Empire. His case might not be effective, but someone else could make a better case...

 

/thinks about the prospects of writing a "Defense of the Empire" speech...

[Jediphile]

Even so, it might be showcasing that it is possible to defend the behavior of the Empire. His case might not be effective, but someone else could make a better case...

 

Sure. That wouldn't be much trouble. Heck, I could probably do it myself, even if I wouldn't believe a word of it

 

Actually, this points to one thing I did like about the prequel trilogy - even if those movies certainly had their low points, they did underscore the position of the empire, making it more than cheesy black-hat villains, which is always good.

[Darth Avlectus]

The Case For The Empire.

 

 

TY!

 

 

Kreia prehaps? Even then, you could argue that she is indeed selfish, as her love for The Exile is really a love for her teachings.

 

There is (if ringing hollow) just a hint of maternal care--though yes that probably would be a good example.

 

Meh, No. I was sort of wondering if it could be basically a jedi order with (more or less) the same ethics and morals as jedi are known for, but with a spin--and minus the insanity, and plus more of the arrogance.

 

Kind of the difference between insanity killings versus premaditated; something wrong with both to be sure but the former does not realize what he/she is doing (or not) nor right vs wrong, whereas in the latter is fully aware.

 

In the end, I really wonder if Kreia even knew what she was doing, regardless how calm and collected she was. I suppose this begs the question whether we're all really insne or crazy beneath it all. IMO Kreia was basically grey until the time came to make that slight red hue in her light/dark profile continuum known. If she knew, she was disingenuous and hypocritical to be sure.

 

All that aside, I can really only say yes and no to them being like kreia; more polarity and less grey. Same manipulation, though so I see why you'd liken it to her. You're very perceptive.

 

I guess the sith's values in the end could be twisted (or un twisted if you prefer) and still be more or less the same and actually be the good guys. I guess you'd say like jolee. I'd say yes, and no....again in a like manner.

 

 

For what else seems to be discussed:

I suppose one way to more effectively allow the apprentice to see flaws of emotion is to nix the whole puritan attitude thing and allow for experimaentation or shall we call it reality testing. A method meant for those who don't fit the mold. IF you don't believe me, Look at Juhani. Whilst she appeared to be a little insecure, yes, she did the right thing--assuming you let her live past dantooine. Seeing the error of her ways she repents and, despite her sometimes ferocious outbursts, is a very strongly fortified individual against dark side lure, most especially if it has less to do with herself.

 

The reality testing method is more down to earth. Sure, it loses some that way, as opposed to a puritanical method; however, rebelliousness would be 'exorcised' out--and if one was turning, then it could be prevented early.

These are to keep the non conformists realizing the point of your teachings.

Like a master who would preach to the effect of emotions being a faulty thing for a jedi: as someone who has "been there and done that". IT may at first seem hypocritical. As time goes, the student will inevitably want to branch out. If theory and philosophy have been thorough and dilligent but the master is understanding in a way that isn't a cocky "see, I told you so", the student will come back with some humbling experiences. Their link will be stronger that way. Admittedly this method is not for every student.

 

Puritanical method, while it would not lose some who would, otherwise left to their own devices, fall...it makes for more resistance and rebelliousness. Also the backlash is more explosive and sudden. These would need to be less "investigative" personalty types and less predisposition towards rocking the proverbial boat. Do not expect them to be these innovative types who find new ways for everything. Rather to sustain status quo.

On the one hand it would appear that masters with such emotion denial make a valid case advocating the jedi way. On the other, they appear subjective and fearfully ignorant; speaking of grounds like as though you are an expert on emotion when in reality you passively spectate and rarely tread. This would go over well with a more conformist type for they are less inclined to question establishment.

 

Point: there are different ways of conveying the same mesages that work for different types of people. I actually rather think that this method is employed by the jedi order past and present...it would have to in order to survive so long I would think.

 

 

HK-47: Commentary: you ritualistic meatbags intellectuallize too much. You need to live a little.......and kill a little more. heheh.

[Darth Tenebrous]

The Jedi have a noble goal, but go about it the wrong way. The Sith are also twisted, and are typically evil, doing anything that will give them more power. The real answer is a mixture of both light and dark sides, such as Jolee Bindo.

What is interesting is that the Jedi say that anyone who deals in absolutes is of the dark side, yet they believe that anyone who opposes them is evil. Paradox, or self incrimination?

[Darth Avlectus]

The Jedi have a noble goal, but go about it the wrong way. The Sith are also twisted, and are typically evil, doing anything that will give them more power. The real answer is a mixture of both light and dark sides, such as Jolee Bindo.

What is interesting is that the Jedi say that anyone who deals in absolutes is of the dark side, yet they believe that anyone who opposes them is evil. Paradox, or self incrimination?

 

Just Remember that Jolee has flaws too.

He could not bring himself kill his wife so she killed many others in the wake of that incident.

Similarly, (And please everyone ***shut up*** about the whole force meant it to be--I KNOW that!) suppose the galaxy would have been better (though not much) off if Obi-wan had aimed a bit higher after taking the other arm and sliced Vader in half (like he did to Maul) and killed him? Then, low and behold, Vader would not have been anymore since he was so short lived. Many jedi he hunted down would have survived.

 

...Of course, the emp would probably hunt down Obi-wan and anihlate him slow and painfully... And weeks, months, or years later, since Vader wasn't there to supervise, everything would fall apart.

We'd have no need for episodes 4-6 and this whole phenomena would not exist...as we know it anyway.

 

Absolutes... HAHA! Finally some mention.

That's actuallty the topic of much controversy, or so I hear. (calification besides websites, word of mouth, and my sith issue of SW insider would be nice)

 

"Only a sith deals in absolutes"

yet

"Do... or Do not...There is no try"

 

I should like to say that the latter is true in the end of pursuits. DURING a pursuit, things are not always so certain... therefore it is a "trial". We'd never grow from NOT DOING to DOING without TRYING--trying is indicative (but not definitive) of intent. Intention and its contexts are what we have as sentients. The determination and focus factor heavily into a likely result. Those who achieve their goal did it because they were already determined to do it...though flukes happen too from time to time... It's important to note that a completeley light (or dark) sided life is at least somewhat in the unrealistic.

 

As for "The case for the empire"

MEh...not really impressed. I'll give it a B- for its boldness as it is one of the few bits of sentiment out there which lend any support for the bad-err "good" guys. He does give an ...effort... to that end. Just not sure if it ultimately holds any water...

 

Random thought:

I cannot decide if Mace was more committed to the light and just had a special niche, or if his razor edge closeness to the dark side made him appear in the grey slightly tilted to the blue... like Jolee. Either one makes sense. I'm not so arrogant to assume that Vaapad had only one spot in the force at a time for a master of it who could stay (if ever so marginally) in the light. However, he's dead and his Vaapad with him. Tho my SWRP navigator would disagree.

[Masgrtgr]

Jolee is a "Lightsider". At least by the time you reach the Rakatan Temple.

 

If he wasn't a "Lightsider" he would have simply walked away instead of challenging Revan.

 

There is no Grey side to the Force. There is only the natural Force (I don't think Light Side fits) and the Dark Side.

 

And saying only a Sith deals in absolutes is a absolute.

[John Skywalker]

The way i see the jedi's the sith and the force is that they are all misunderstood. Every Jedi is arrogant but quick to judge. like we see in attack of the clones when Mace, Obi Wan and Yoda speak of how arrogant Anakin is, then in Revenge of the Sith Obi wan makes the cockiest statement "Siths are our specialty" and Yoda says some thing i cant remember to Palpatine before there fight which Palpatine replies," Your arrogance blinds you". The Jedi are worse than the sith, the sith only crave more power for a reason. Kreia wanted it to destroy the force iirc. Revan wanted it to fight the true Sith and Anakin wanted it to save Padme. I think they get those yellow eyes not because they are one with the Dark side but they have such a strong and raw connection with the force maybe?

[i_shot_the_jedi]

Sometimes both can be as bad as each other. The worst are always those who do horrendous evil believing that they are actually saving the Galaxy - take Master Lucien Draay, for example.

 

Nevertheless, putting aside the hypocrites, most of the Jedi are truly beneveolent beings dedicated to helping the Galaxy. Can you truly say that Yoda, despite having made that comment, did any damage to the Galaxy at all? It all comes down to the fact that every Jedi, despite being a paragon of light, is nevertheless still mortal, and is bound to develop negative emotions despite their best efforts.

[Vaelastraz]

The way i see the jedi's the sith and the force is that they are all misunderstood. Every Jedi is arrogant but quick to judge. like we see in attack of the clones when Mace, Obi Wan and Yoda speak of how arrogant Anakin is, then in Revenge of the Sith Obi wan makes the cockiest statement "Siths are our specialty" and Yoda says some thing i cant remember to Palpatine before there fight which Palpatine replies," Your arrogance blinds you". The Jedi are worse than the sith, the sith only crave more power for a reason.

 

 

Just because they wield the force doesn't mean that they have to be serious at all times. Obi wan is just displaying a sarcastic kind of humour...that's not arrogance. Anakin is arrogant, as well as Sidious, Maul and Dooku.

[John Skywalker]

Sometimes both can be as bad as each other. The worst are always those who do horrendous evil believing that they are actually saving the Galaxy - take Master Lucien Draay, for example.

 

Nevertheless, putting aside the hypocrites, most of the Jedi are truly beneveolent beings dedicated to helping the Galaxy. Can you truly say that Yoda, despite having made that comment, did any damage to the Galaxy at all? It all comes down to the fact that every Jedi, despite being a paragon of light, is nevertheless still mortal, and is bound to develop negative emotions despite their best efforts.

 

Yes helping the galaxy eliminate crime and all those bad things or helping the galaxy eliminate their(the jedi's) threats i wonder? Though he was arrogant i think the real jedi is indeed Anakin as he could still see the good in people even though he mistrusted them (as seen in revenge of the sith)

[Allronix]

OK, that "Case for the Empire" Guy is writing for a flagrantly right-wing publication if the rest of the articles are any indication. It made for a good reminder as to why I consider myself a Socialist. His reference to Pinochet...um, tell it to the "disappeared." As for Alderaan and the Lars...if it had the chance of being his own family, how much would his tone change?

 

Dude gets filed with Brin in the category of "things to be mindful of when writing in the universe, despite the fact you'll cringe all the way through it."

 

A truly scary thought came to me when I was reading through my old Star Trek stash, though. In Trek, the Trills only allowed a small percentage of their population to be Joined. The Joined also appeared to be an elite - the caste of rulers, diplomats, scientists, achievers. The Unjoined were the common folk - laborers, techs, etc. However, it was discovered that over 50% of the population could, in fact, support a symbiont. This information was a VERY Big Dirty Secret because of the perceived social chaos that would happen if it got out that the common folk, and not just the hand-selected elite the Symbiosis Commission, could be among their ranks.

 

Now, apply scary thought to Lucas's universe. In K2, over half your party could be cross classed. Force Sensitivity runs in the bloodlines, and appears to be a dominant gene - a combination of recessives can leave someone Force-Deaf, but it appears to be the exception and not the rule. There are planets loaded with Sensitives like Dathomir (but a Force-mitigator gene appears to follow the Y chromosome there), Haruun Kal, Yanibar, and even Telos...

 

Now, imagine that about 1/3 to 1/2 of the general galactic population has some sensitivity. Maybe never enough to lift an X-Wing from the swamp, but enough to start making things go pear-shaped. That would be bad news for the dominant Force Schools. the Sith would not be as inclined to go bullying everything in sight if their victims could fight back. The Jedi would have to put up with folks using it in bar brawls, crime, and extortion. It would be in the interest of both to make sure that they try to stop the Force Sentivivity gene from further leakage, sift out and take the few Sensitives they can control, and leave the rest ignorant. Not in the best interest of the people, mind you, but the best intrests of their institutions. This would also factor into the Sith's pathological fear of love and the Jedi's ban on marriage and children...because IF that Sensitivity is a dominant gene, allowing Force Users to breed would accellerate the percentage of the population that's FS to begin with.

[Darth Avlectus]

OK, that "Case for the Empire" Guy is writing for a flagrantly right-wing publication

 

Sigh--not more politics... Extremes to the left or right are sheepish and "baaaaad".

 

As for the above "only the sith deal in absolutes" is an absolute--case in point. TY--though it's pretty obvious.

In terms of gey area--there's grey, just not one that is long lived because we're all either good or bad in the end. I suppose we could end in grey, but that wouldn't change the "score" (the fact of reality that you lived either more in the good or bad) of our lives.

 

 

Now, imagine that about 1/3 to 1/2 of the general galactic population has some sensitivity. Maybe never enough to lift an X-Wing from the swamp, but enough to start making things go pear-shaped. That would be bad news for the dominant Force Schools. the Sith would not be as inclined to go bullying everything in sight if their victims could fight back. The Jedi would have to put up with folks using it in bar brawls, crime, and extortion. It would be in the interest of both to make sure that they try to stop the Force Sentivivity gene from further leakage, sift out and take the few Sensitives they can control, and leave the rest ignorant. Not in the best interest of the people, mind you, but the best intrests of their institutions. This would also factor into the Sith's pathological fear of love and the Jedi's ban on marriage and children...because IF that Sensitivity is a dominant gene, allowing Force Users to breed would accellerate the percentage of the population that's FS to begin with.

 

EXCELLENT POINT!

Heheh. Thanks, you bring up an important thing: it seems the SW universe every fan can be force adept in its various games, RPs, and such outings.

Understandably it is quite likeable too. However, it seems to rob the rest of the entirety of SW--does it not? Before you all beat me down to mustafar's lava bank, consider: the rest of the world sees the SW franchse as lopsided: the whole experience of SW used to be more universal. Now it seems more importanat to make that lightsaber and use those powers. Critics often say that the true badasses in SW are "not the force-dependent waeklings". Whilst it comes as a bit of a slap in the face; As much we all like being that force adept thrusting our lightsabers, consider their claims. I mean, back in the day of the original trilogy, it wasn't monopolized by lightsabers and force sensitives. Force sensitivity was supposed to be more rare and sacred. Whatever happened to Han Solo? Dash Rendar? (I know what actually happened to them in the stories--I mean in terms of a dominant theme!) Point being, it isn't such a specialty if everyone has it; and really it all begins to fall flat and stale. Soon outsiders to the SW franchise will be like--"Lightsaber? What's the big deal anyway? Everyone uses the force."

 

The sith are onto something, but it really goes beyond just the dark side to the force as a whole. When there are fewer who use the force, it seems to make for more colorful characters and juicier stories. THAT is the main complaint critics of SW have.

 

This is why I think the whole force sensitivity deal should be optional and not required for K3's main character. Furthermore, just because the main character isn't a jedi or sith or other, doesn't mena he/she can't be THE hero. K2 had the right idea "the lightsaber is THE THING; you should have to work for it" said one interview-ee at TSL's release, however, it's like almost all of your party is force sensitive which cancels out that effect. "It's KNIGHTS O.T.O.R., not GRUNTS o.t.o.r." SO WHAT? You can have a jedi knight in your party. Not being force sensitive does not mean you are necessarily subserviant or that your role is less prominent. Carth-as annoying as he is, did great in putting young, brash, Bastilla back in her place after the rescue. I'm sure even the order's more cynnical types like Vrook wouldn't object to that... for there is nothing a little lashing of discipline won't cure in a little brat. Those who object to discipline the most are those most in need of it. The louder your argument, the more you prove this to be true--regardless what I say or my position.

 

And yet another point:

Vrook was probably a better teacher than other masters for his unappeasable and gruff sided approach. Those are the types who are more challenging, make you THINK. Once you finally prove yourself to them, they become your biggest supporters. The most gifted who do not live up to their potential are a great folly--and a challenging perspective from a mentor will change that. Though admittedly, the mentor must be very careful in conduct, wise of life outside the structured confines, and truly understanding on top of being unrelenting--or else the mentor is just a stubborn pig-headed conformist--following the textbooks with no real teaching. Vrook was that "gem of a mentor", I believe.

[Allronix]

Heh. In the first West End game I was playing in, I insisted to the GM that I did NOT want to play an FS character. I was going to be a 40-year-old Mon Calamari medic who would have been a full MD had the Empire not turned her medical school to a smoking hole. She had a running hypothesis that Force use wreaked havoc with someone's mental health. (Seeing as the apprentice Jedi on the boat was kinda nuts, the Knight was in a perpetual drunken stupor since the Purge, and the ony other Force Users she ran across were Imperial minions, she kinda had reason.)

 

The GM totally overruled me. So, like it or not, I was playing a FS. Fine, I ran with it.

 

The good ship's surgeon didn't realize she was drawing on the Force when she was trying to save lives, but she was. At the end of the campaign, this actually led to a scene of Luke calling her on this and offering her a place at Yavin 4. She accepted, but told him that she would always prefer the title of "Doctor" to "Jedi." Ever since, I've had this odd notion that maybe there are a lot more "closet cases" like her.

[Darth Avlectus]

Heh. In the first West End game I was playing in, I insisted to the GM that I did NOT want to play an FS character. I was going to be a 40-year-old Mon Calamari medic who would have been a full MD had the Empire not turned her medical school to a smoking hole. She had a running hypothesis that Force use wreaked havoc with someone's mental health. (Seeing as the apprentice Jedi on the boat was kinda nuts, the Knight was in a perpetual drunken stupor since the Purge, and the ony other Force Users she ran across were Imperial minions, she kinda had reason.)

 

The GM totally overruled me. So, like it or not, I was playing a FS. Fine, I ran with it.

 

The good ship's surgeon didn't realize she was drawing on the Force when she was trying to save lives, but she was. At the end of the campaign, this actually led to a scene of Luke calling her on this and offering her a place at Yavin 4. She accepted, but told him that she would always prefer the title of "Doctor" to "Jedi." Ever since, I've had this odd notion that maybe there are a lot more "closet cases" like her.

 

What game was this, exactly? Galaxies? OR some RP? --just so I (and everyone else) have a better picture.

 

Yeah. I can relate. Though force sensititve in an RP I played, I wanted nothing to do with jedi as it was during the purge--actually Ep5-ESB. That Didn't stop immortal Darth Ominous from obsessively trying to kill me because I would botch his plan to take over the galaxy.......on accident.....as fate and the force intended. I guess.

 

10 years later, though I had stayed away from the force, even thought I had cut my link to the force...an old "HK-47.c" I discovered went general greivous on me......modified by guess who....... with 2 lightsabers and modified circling jointed wrists. My Vibro Xizang style hook Swords knocked out of my grip, my lightsaber dead for the past 8 years, the only way I could save my hide after being impaled and cut several times was digging down deep into my fury (and animalistic ferrile nature) and unleshing force lightning on the droid. Stunned, the HK dropped the sabers. I next force gripped, crushed, and twisted all but the head for analysis later......after tending to my wounds. Later I would see my old enemy executed (rather undone and blended with the universe and the force) by his own people since it was the only way he could be stopped. I shall try again, however my essence is hollowing out, it seems anything of my creation is destructive. I'm also growing uber hungry...... and with my character learning about revan and the exile, will I become a villain that is as bad as revan and nihilus in one?

 

I should hope not....... but (glowing eyes) you never know.

[Allronix]

Ye olde West End dice and sheet. Era was the period between ROTJ and the Zhan trilogy. My bro-in-law still runs the West End version, and he has stats for K1 & K2 characters in their D6 format. Nothing so drastic happened in my game. I was the only one aside from the Jedi that hadn't dipped into the DS. Still...

 

The more I look at Star Wars, the more I wonder if the Jedi don't really fall into the category of "necessary evil." Or if the Force was meant for growing, culling, and sustaining life, but was never meant to be tapped into or used like it was. Or if Kreia actually could be right, and that the Force is far from benign or controllable.

[Emperor Pangasa]

In the Words of Desaan. "The force is not shield to protect the useless, but is in reality to a weapon empower the worthy." I have always hated Jedi for the reason of purging yourself of wants, needs and desires, especially the concept of mastering your emotions. To deny your emotions is to deny being a living being.

[John Galt]

Well, I happen to value logic over emotions, but I think virtuous acts are those stemming from from rational self-interrest. This is an interresting viewpoint, from the perspective of Star Wars force-users. I could probably sympathize with the Sith more, but probably with someone more like Darth Vectivus than Sion, Vader, or Nihilus.