Palps slaying of the JEDI was poor

[zalcron]

you make some good and fair points, i just think it might have been better if he had a booby trap or something that killed 2 of them and he slayed the other one whilst taking on Mace.

[Prime]

I think they should have had to "answer me these questions three."

[arkodeon]

Lucas painted himself into a corner with this one.

 

He had to have the Jedi confront Palpatine, which they wouldn't do alone, (so there had to be more than one of them there....) but also get down to a one-on-one fight, which is more dramatic, and far easier to film and stage.

 

There are a couple of "in-universe" clues in the ROTS novelization and movies which point to why he was able to dispatch with them so easily:

a.) He was so powerful with the Dark Side that it clouded the Jedi's abilities, and stunned them all, with the exception of Mace. This was hinted at in Ep. II, and also when Obi and Anakin got captured on Grievous' ship. His mere presence diminished their force abilities.

b.) None of the Jedi were trained to handle another force-user, and hadn't been training against other saber wielders. Only the Jedi descended from Yoda's training (Yoda, Dooku, Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan, Anakin... and I'm not sure where Mace fits in there) took the threat of the return of the Sith seriously, and were the only ones truly prepared to fight against someone trained in the Jedi arts and armed with a lightsaber. Everyone else had been practicing to fight against opponents armed with blasters.

c.) They never expected him to fight back against obviously superior numbers.

 

The real reasons for eliminating the rest of the Jedi Masters right off the bat are far simpler though: it makes for a much better movie.

 

Notice that Lucas always pares down all the lightsaber duels to a one-on-one conflict almost immediately. In Ep. I Obi-wan is taken out of the fight early so that it's just Maul and Qui-Gon, and he doesn't catch up until Qui-Gon is down.

In Ep. II first Anakin is down, then Obi-Wan, then both are down when Yoda appears.

In Ep. III Dooku lays the smackdown on Obi-Wan pretty early, so that it's just Anakin left.

 

It's an obvious trend.

 

A one-on-one fight is far easier and quicker to shoot, not to mention far, far easier on all the stunt coordinators, fight choreographers, stunt people and actors.

 

Plus the fact that the other Jedi in that scene are all aliens. You never really see a non-human Jedi fight the way the human ones do, not even in the Ep. II arena battle scene. Why? You try seriously fighting in a heavy, bulky, hot foam-rubber suit that blocks most of your vision and restricts your movement dramatically. Plus, 5 minutes of serious athletic fighting in suit like that on a hot soundstage under thousands of watts of film lighting, and you'd better have the paramedics handy, since you are going to pass out from heat exhaustion and dehydration.

 

You could replace them with CG characters... but that's highly expensive and time consuming, and since all that you really want to get to is the far more dramatic one-on-one battle of Windu vs. Sidious, that would end up most likely being very expensive fight footage that got cut in the interest of time, anyway.

 

It was also a cramped set. There wasn't a whole lot of room to have an extensive 5-person fight anyway, as this was supposed to be an office.

 

At that point in the movie the momentum has built to a crescendo... that fight is really just there to provide Anakins real turn to the dark side, anyway. You really don't want a huge fight at that point in the movie as a film maker, anyway. A huge saber fight at that point would probably take away from the drama of the final, ultimate showdown of the Mustifar duel.

 

Those are the real reasons why the Jedi didn't fight back... the unfortunate realities of making a film.

 

Since when was Obi-Wan/Anakin/Qui-Gon been pupils of Yoda? I don't ever remember any of them being Padawans of Yoda.

 

I am really sure that with the Return of the Sith at the end of the Phantom Menace that the Jedi Knights were being prepared. Yoda himself seemed uneasy; he knew of the existence of two, and only one had been slain. Yoda, and in effect the entire Jedi Council, knows of the growing Sith threat. The Jedi are not so stupid as not to prepare themselves for a fight.

 

And if the Battle of Geonosis wasn't the biggest hint that they had to start training against other lightsaber-wielding opponents, then their order was doomed from the start.

 

Plus, Ki-Adi-Mundi, Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Mace Windu held their own against General Grievous, who was faster, could climb walls/ceilings, and could, if he wanted to, wield 4 lightsabers, which he usually only used two. The arguement that they could not fight against Lightsaber-wielding opponents is absurd; if they could not fight against lightsabers, Grievous would have won.

 

While I agree that George Lucas made the fight a Mace Windu VS. Palpatine to be dramatic, and to an extent it is, but it fails. The dramaticism created by this conflict is never resolved; Anakin Skywalker kills Mace Windu, and concludes the dramaticism with Mace, but never is the conflict between Palpatine and Windu resolved. Even though the Chancellor was just faking it, if Anakin hadn't intervened, Mace would have killed him, effectively ending the Return of the Sith. In this, we can see that none of the two checkmated eachother, for it was the intervention of Anakin that led to the conclusion, thus ending with a lingering..."What if?"

 

Which isn't always a bad thing.

 

And the CGI?

 

Three words.

 

Yoda Vs. Palpatine.

[El Sitherino]

Since when was Obi-Wan/Anakin/Qui-Gon been pupils of Yoda? I don't ever remember any of them being Padawans of Yoda.

Since forever?

 

The Jedi are not so stupid as not to prepare themselves for a fight.

They were prepared, just not quite to the extent necessary. As Prime said, the only ones truely prepared were Obi-Wan, Windu, Yoda, etc.

 

The arguement that they could not fight against Lightsaber-wielding opponents is absurd; if they could not fight against lightsabers, Grievous would have won.

He never said they couldn't, he said they weren't routinely trained.

 

And the CGI?

 

Three words.

 

Yoda Vs. Palpatine.

 

 

Name your point.

[MachineCult]

Since when was Obi-Wan/Anakin/Qui-Gon been pupils of Yoda? I don't ever remember any of them being Padawans of Yoda.

All the Jedi are pupils of Yoda before they become Padawans. (Except Anakin who became a Padawan immidiately.)

[edlib]

Qui-gon was Dooku's padawan, and Dooku was Yoda's padawan. So the thread was Yoda>Dooku>Qui-Gon>Obi-Wan>Anakin.

 

And I'm guessing that spending thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours on CGI for a 30 second throwaway transitional scene that 98% of the people that see the movie will never, ever give a second thought to, just to satisfy the fan-boys who spend all their time on electronic bulletin boards picking apart your movie frame-by-frame wasn't really high on Lucas list of priorities.

 

He needed to eliminate 3 Jedi, fast. That's the scene he got. He could have spent a lot more time and money to get to the exact same point, perhaps with a little more flair, and more satisfying to the hardcore purists.... but sometimes the simplest solution is the one to go with.

 

Especially when your main actor (Ian MacDairmid) hadn't had any sword training before the day he showed up to film the scene. That scene would have taken weeks to film, then the CG would have taken months to perfect.

Building Hi-res 3D CGI models of 3 jedi; digital face-replacement for Palpatine's stunt-double; extensive match-move captures; designing unique fighting styles for all 3 jedi; performance motion-tracking for each character.

 

As it is, they probably got through principal shooting of those shots in an afternoon.

[arkodeon]

All the Jedi are pupils of Yoda before they become Padawans. (Except Anakin who became a Padawan immidiately.)

 

I thought he meant like...

 

Direct training, through Padawan to Knight.

 

If that's the case, then his point is disproven. All Jedi should have been ready because they were all trained by Yoda as Younglings.

[zalcron]

While I agree that George Lucas made the fight a Mace Windu VS. Palpatine to be dramatic, and to an extent it is, but it fails. The dramaticism created by this conflict is never resolved; Anakin Skywalker kills Mace Windu, and concludes the dramaticism with Mace, but never is the conflict between Palpatine and Windu resolved. Even though the Chancellor was just faking it, if Anakin hadn't intervened, Mace would have killed him, effectively ending the Return of the Sith. In this, we can see that none of the two checkmated eachother, for it was the intervention of Anakin that led to the conclusion, thus ending with a lingering..."What if?"

]

 

On that note, looking back at all the scheming, planning and patience Palpatine had (his plan to become Emperor took about 15 years to mature) don’t you think that he took a bit of a risk when it came to this fight? He was a Wookie’s whisker away form losing for good against Mace. It just seems odd that man with that much patience and intelligence would gamble everything on the possibility of Anakin walking into his office the exact time Mace was about to end all his plans. Surely even he could not have foreseen that?

[Justus]

Most Jedi were trained to fight against blaster weilding opponents however. Since there hadn't been a sith in many years the Jedi grew complacent, and because of that they suffered greatly, no to mention their arrogance. I'm sure they sparred with one another to hone their skills, but that's quite different than going up against a person strong in the dark side.

[edlib]

My point exactly.

 

In the novelizations it is implied that Dooku was one of the few who really kept up his saber dueling abilities and practice.

 

It's a trait he may have gotten from Yoda, who was the only Jedi to seem to still take the threat of the return of the Sith seriously.

If he then passed that along to Qui-Gon, then Qui-Gon passed that along to Obi, and by extension Anakin, then they were the only ones that could ever have faced the Sith.

[arkodeon]

While I agree that George Lucas made the fight a Mace Windu VS. Palpatine to be dramatic, and to an extent it is, but it fails. The dramaticism created by this conflict is never resolved; Anakin Skywalker kills Mace Windu, and concludes the dramaticism with Mace, but never is the conflict between Palpatine and Windu resolved. Even though the Chancellor was just faking it, if Anakin hadn't intervened, Mace would have killed him, effectively ending the Return of the Sith. In this, we can see that none of the two checkmated eachother, for it was the intervention of Anakin that led to the conclusion, thus ending with a lingering..."What if?"

]

 

On that note, looking back at all the scheming, planning and patience Palpatine had (his plan to become Emperor took about 15 years to mature) don’t you think that he took a bit of a risk when it came to this fight? He was a Wookie’s whisker away form losing for good against Mace. It just seems odd that man with that much patience and intelligence would gamble everything on the possibility of Anakin walking into his office the exact time Mace was about to end all his plans. Surely even he could not have foreseen that?

 

I don't know if we can trust his 'forsight.'

 

He predicted Luke would turn to the darkside, and the Rebels would die. But one major problem came into play: Anakin Skywalker.

 

I don't think he could forsee Anakin's future, neither could the Jedi. His was shrouded. Granted, this may be only speculation, but I would expect Yoda to forsee this tragedy as well as Palpatine, since they are about the same in power.

 

He could have felt Anakin approach, and went into "Woe is me, I am old. SAVEME." But I still felt Mace Windu would have won. What strikes me odd about the theory is that before Anakin decided to go to the office, Mace was defeating him.

 

My point exactly.

 

In the novelizations it is implied that Dooku was one of the few who really kept up his saber dueling abilities and practice.

 

It's a trait he may have gotten from Yoda, who was the only Jedi to seem to still take the threat of the return of the Sith seriously.

If he then passed that along to Qui-Gon, then Qui-Gon passed that along to Obi, and by extension Anakin, then they were the only ones that could ever have faced the Sith.

 

Again, where do you get this feeling that he/they were the only ones to take this threat seriously?

 

They knew Dooku was a large threat; they went to Geonosis to stop him. When they discovered that they couldn't, was that not a BIG HINT to start getting their acts together?

 

And all this talk about being complacent. I don't know where this comes from, because the Jedi sure don't seem complacent to me. They were not pleased with what was happening; they were weariful of the leader of the Republic, they had enemies from everywhere coming at them, they were trying to hold together the Republic from falling into the hands of the Confederation, effectively splitting the Republic up, AND they had to deal with General Grievous, Durge, and Asajj Ventress. Wow. Pretty complacent, don't you think.

 

And I don't know where this idea of "Those who are directly descended from Yoda's training are the only ones who can take this seriously."

 

Sure, Yoda trained Dooku, Dooku trained Qui-Gon, Qui-Gon trained Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan trained Anakin, etc. etc.

 

But clearly, Anakin was not equipped to fight the Sith. Like Master Vos, he succumbed to the Darkside, only Vos was able to get out. There is more to the Sith than just lightsabers;

 

And, by right of passage, Yoda did indeed train ALL of the Jedi when they were Younglings. This disputes the fact that "Only those trained by Yoda are ready." Mace Windu wasn't a "padawan" of Yoda, but he held his own, until Anakin stepped in.

 

While they were the only Jedi to "seem" to take the threat seriously, they were the only ones who were given "sufficient" screen time to portray their thoughts on the Clone Wars.

 

The comics show the Jedi valiantly trying to defeat the Sith; it never said that they were in anyway just "joking" with the idea of the Sith. The Sith were very real, and very dangerous. Many of the Jedi already died at the hands of the Sith during the Clone Wars; if you were a soldier, and some of your legions were killed by a superior force, would you not fear and take the situation seriously?

 

Sorry if I come across hostile... it's just, I don't see how the arguement applies. ):

 

I could be wrong.

[edlib]

Well, first, let's just get some perspective:

 

This is just my personal interpretation of fictional events happening to fictional characters in a fictional universe. If you don't care for my way of seeing it, you can always come up with your own.

I've come to these conclusions after seeing all the movies and reading each of the novelizations. Nothing of this is spelled out in a clear, concise, complete way,.. but there's a few hints and stuff in passing that make me think that this might be something Lucas might have been hinting at, or at least thinking about.

The only one who knows for sure is George Lucas... and that's assuming that he's given it all that much thought. Chances are he saw a solution to a plot problem, and that's just the way it fit best.

 

My logic:

 

For thousands of years the Jedi follow their paths as glorified galactic policemen... doing a little diplomatic work, and putting out fires wherever they saw them.

At first they were vigilant about any signs of the Sith returning. But as the centuries wore on the only other force-using, lightsaber-wielding lifeforms they might have encountered in all that time just happened to be on their side.

But 100% of the opponents they encountered in their daily business were using beam and projectile weapons. Eventually they started to relax their training against other fencers, since their time was probably better spent learning defence against the billions of billions of lifeforms holding guns, rather than someone using a lightsaber. Any sparring going on that point was mostly friendly contests between Jedi, since it makes no sense to choose a lightsaber as a weapon unless you have the force, so the Jedi and the Sith are the only ones to have them. The Jedi are in total control of all the force-users that get discovered within the auspices of the Republic,.. and, as far as the Jedi, and the rest of the galaxy know, the Sith are totally extinct.

 

So when Qui-Gon first appears before the Jedi council after being attacked by Maul on Tatooeen, most of the Council is like "Sith Lord? Whatchoo talkin' 'bout, Willis?"

Only Yoda seemed to admit that it was a possibility, and that the Dark Side was too difficult to know for sure.

After Obi-Wan defeats Maul, the Council finally admits that he was a Sith Lord, but they don't know if he was the master or student. While they then stay watchful, continual problems with the Trade Federation as well as the recently renounced Dooku's separatists kept the tiny number of Jedi too busy to really deal with the problem and to make sure the rest of the Jedi were truly trained properly.

 

Why did Sidious choose Dooku? Well, he was a bit of an egomaniac, which made him easy conversion... but he also was one of the few that still fought in the old style (this was a phrase used in the novelizations,) and he could hold his own against another duellist. A trait to have when picking out a future Sith lord, who was going to have to fight sword-to-sword against fully trained Jedi... you want the best.

 

So now the Jedi are stretched all over the galaxy when the Clone Wars start. They now know Dooku is a Sith... probably assuming he was the master of Maul. The Jedi are in almost constant battles, and still, with the exception of a couple of encounters with Grievous, (which almost every Jedi who goes against him lost, if you note...) 100% of all their opponents are still using beam and projectile weapons.

But the point is that the Jedi are all just too busy fighting a war to really train against a Sith opponent properly.

 

As far as Yoda training the younglings: Well, he was head of the Jedi Council, and most likely the main political representative to the Republic. How much time could he devote to teaching and training in that role?

Most of the kids he's shown teaching are kindergarten age. (And what exactly is he shown teaching those kids? How to deflect blaster bolts with their sabers...) How much do you remember of what your kindergarten teacher taught you, specifically?

At some point other teachers take over and teach their style. But those early stages are most likely Force-use basics, and general education.

Eventually each student is paired off to a Master Jedi to be mentored, still fairly young if I remember correctly. The Jedi Master will really teach them most of what they will use. It's there that they will really learn the most about being a Jedi. Yoda got a chance to teach his theories and methods to his Padawan far more than he ever would to a group of very young kids in a classroom setting.

His methods would then further influence the padawans that his former apprentice later takes on, tempered by that knights personality and experiences.

 

But hey... it's just my theory. Nothing says it's the gospel, codified truth... but it fits what I saw in the movies, and makes sense to me.

[zalcron]

nicely put together, so the buttom line is the jedi became complacent and even arrogant and paid the price.

[Maphisto86]

I agree Kurgan, Lucas did not handle the first part of that scene well.

 

Very true... I found that only Kit Fisto and of course Mace Windu put up a decent fight. I was really disappointed about how Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin fared. I mean if they did "something".... ANYTHING! It was the poorest fighting scene done in the entire film (with the General Grievous v.s. Obi-Wan scene a close second). I always envisioned Palpatine igniting his lightsaber in midair, slicing through Agen Kolar as he lands then ducking a swipe from Saesee Tiin and slicing him at the waist then leaping over Mace and Kit who come to the other Jedi's aid. Palps then duels with the two of them for six seconds and snuffs Kit Fisto. There, not so hard eh George? He really should have used that so-called "digital magic" he's so fond of.

 

Alas, I like Episode III over all but that scene will always make me disapointed. Jedi masters... The only part of that duel I liked was how Palpatine did that jump, spin in mid air with the lightsaber. That looked cool...

[Sam Fisher]

I've always wondered.. if that's how "Masters" fare.. I guess Padawans can't even get their britches up.

 

That scene simply sucked IMO.

 

I guess I can't expect much out of Lucas (in that department) though

[Justus]

It was just a way to quickly get the duel between Mace and Sidious, I don't think Lucas wanted to pro-long things with 4 Jedi. It could've been handled better, maybe having Sidious a bit faster on the attack - feels like it is in slow motion at times.

 

Someone pointed out either on these forums, or theforce.net forums that Lucas likes to have one on one duels. Notice how Obi and Qui-Gon are quickly seperated in TPM, Dooku and Obi-Wan, then Dooku and Anakin in AotC, the duel at the beginning of RotS when they are trying to rescue the Chancellor, Grevious quickly looses two of his hands. I think Lucas likes to get it straight to the point without too much confusion for the viewers.

 

Another thing that may have contributed to Sidious' attack was the fact that they were in cramped quarters, not a whole lot of room to maneuver. I am also not sure if they realized just how powerful Sidious was.

[RC-1162]

^^^^

thats the main reason they got pwned. OVERCONFIDENCE!!

i mean, if palpy was such a problem, the whole of the available council should have gone. Windu must have been like: "Oh that guy? He's an old, old man. I can kick his a** any day." and then he goes and takes a free flight to the concrete. i mean, they keep preaching: "no pride, no pride" but they eventually try to show off, like the guy in AOTC who jumped onto the ledge where dooku was standing above the execution pit. he got whacked by a blaster!!! the ACTUAL jedi are yoda, the knights, the padawans and younglings. the kid who survived order 66 thwacked about 5 troopers before ALL of them ganged up on him. THAT is how a jedi should be. not the sappy old rheumatistic masters.

[arkodeon]

^^^^

thats the main reason they got pwned. OVERCONFIDENCE!!

i mean, if palpy was such a problem, the whole of the available council should have gone. Windu must have been like: "Oh that guy? He's an old, old man. I can kick his a** any day." and then he goes and takes a free flight to the concrete. i mean, they keep preaching: "no pride, no pride" but they eventually try to show off, like the guy in AOTC who jumped onto the ledge where dooku was standing above the execution pit. he got whacked by a blaster!!! the ACTUAL jedi are yoda, the knights, the padawans and younglings. the kid who survived order 66 thwacked about 5 troopers before ALL of them ganged up on him. THAT is how a jedi should be. not the sappy old rheumatistic masters.

 

Sappy old Rheumatistic masters?

 

Right, so Mace Windu couldn't fight well and was suffering from muscle pains?

 

...

 

Mhmm.

 

And which "ACTUAL" Knights are you refering to? Are we forgetting Master Quinlan Vos, General Secura, Obi-Wan, K'Kruhk, Shaak Ti, etc. etc?

 

And perhaps you did not read any novelisations, or comics, or watched, even, the Clone Wars? Perhaps then you would see that the supposed "Rheumatic" Masters are not so "Rheumatic" after all.

 

That Jedi who went to kill Dooku wasn't showing off. He was trying to kill a Sith. He was shot because he was overpowered by Jango Fett. It is said that he is more a Peacekeeper than a Fighter.

 

Talk about your show-off.

 

And if you would please tell me what "Avaliable" council members were there but Mace Windu and Kit Fisto inside the Gunship hangars? It was imperative that they stop the Rise of the Sith then and there; who knows how long it could have been before the rest of the remaining council could be gathered. And while I frown upon Mace's decision to have Anakin stay at the Temple (if he had went with Mace instead of on his own, Anakin would probably have seen the Jedi to be the better people,) Mace made the right choice. I mean, it's kind of hard to expect that four Jedi Masters cannot take one Sith Lord.

 

Originally, Anakin had been written to go with them, so http://www.thelightsaber.com says. Anakin was supposed to betray two of the Jedi Masters, which is why they die suddenly. I guess George had no way to effectively portray this if Anakin wasn't there.

 

But who knows if that is true.

 

Anyways, bottom line:

 

Jedi > Sappy Rheumatistic People.

[Justus]

Perhaps Mace should have waited for Yoda before confronting Palpatine. Although, Mace seems to think there isn't much time left - "We must act quickly if the Jedi order is to survive." Although Mace's confronting Sidious is exactly what sets the death of the Jedi into motion. Plus, Yoda (and alot of Jedi) were involved in campaigns throughout the galaxy, their forces were thinned out considerably - not exactly a coincidence either. It left the Jedi Temple wide open for an attack. Palpatine played his cards rather well.

 

Anakin only saw the very end of the duel, where Palpatine is being cornered by Mace, although it is interesting that Anakin seems to have forgotten about the 3 other Jedi that accompanied Mace... guess he figured they went to Dex's Diner or something.

[arkodeon]

Perhaps Mace should have waited for Yoda before confronting Palpatine. Although, Mace seems to think there isn't much time left - "We must act quickly if the Jedi order is to survive." Although Mace's confronting Sidious is exactly what sets the death of the Jedi into motion. Plus, Yoda (and alot of Jedi) were involved in campaigns throughout the galaxy, their forces were thinned out considerably - not exactly a coincidence either. It left the Jedi Temple wide open for an attack. Palpatine played his cards rather well.

 

Anakin only saw the very end of the duel, where Palpatine is being cornered by Mace, although it is interesting that Anakin seems to have forgotten about the 3 other Jedi that accompanied Mace... guess he figured they went to Dex's Diner or something.

 

I agree. Interestingly enough, on that website MilleniumFalcon, there seems to be a paragraph about this. Although I don't know where they got this information from, it seems that there was a debate amongst the remaining Jedi [EDIT: not Jeid XD] Councillors in some novel, or first draft, or something. They debated waiting for Yoda, but with the Battle of Kashyyyk, they did not know when he would return. Also, it seems that Anakin was set to go with them from the beginning, but it got rewritten.

 

Proof of Anakin going with them in the beginning? In the movies, the Chancellor is fighting with Anakin's lightsaber. It's true. ;D GO SEE. NOW. XD

 

(And, perhaps Millenium Falcon was wrong. I don't know, but I think it's an excellent idea to include a debate between the Jedi Masters.)

 

And about the dead Jedi; Anakin saw them, in the novellisation, and was worried. But when he saw Mace pinning down the Chancellor, he was like...

 

"OMG HE KILLZ B/C THEY AZZAZZINATE HEEM. LOLOLOLZ I PROTECT CHANCELLORZ. I DARTH VADERZ NOW, KTHXBYE."

 

Yeah, I don't like Anakin. They should have left him on that backwater planet. ):

[zalcron]

No doubt Papls actually planned it so that Yoda would not be on Corscant when the war ended following Grevious kicking the bucket, he seemed to forsee everything else, (within reason)

[RC-1162]

@arkodeon, i was making an expression, i didnt mean it literally