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Rebelknight
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There is alot of debate on repait times for fleet ships. Some are saying that it was sped up for the demo, while others say that the repair time is right with instant repair after a battle. I was hopeing that this would have been answered in the last Q&A section but it wasn't. Anyone know how we can find out for sure? :vsd:

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So far, repairs are instant. This makes for a nasty tactic. Just build up a large fleet and go planet hopping blowing away all before you all over the place.

 

Since all your damage is repaired instantly, you will be like a rolling stone just wreaking havoc on the opponent. It will be a rush to get the large fleet to go mow over the galaxy without a repair to slow you down.

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Repairs are instant. We experimented with persistant damage, maintainance costs and such, but found that it added nothing but confusion and frustration for players. The build times were greatly sped up for the demo - for example some build times that are normally 2 minutes were set to 20 seconds in the demo (those of you who mod the demo should be able to see the real build times and costs in the XML).

 

There are many things that balance out the instant repair: the ease of destruction of ships, build times and cost, unit and money caps on planets, the leveling cost of space stations, construction prerequisites, retreat attrition damage, etc. We didn't just make the instant repair decision lightly; many factors went into the decision.

 

As to the "mass fleet of doom" tactic, it's not likely that this will work in a prolonged campaign, at least until you get to end-game situations (and by then it is acceptable). To do this you would likely have to strip most of your planets of defenses, which would leave you open to attack.

 

I would suggest that you try the system over a lengthy campaign once the game comes out. I personally feel that it works pretty well.

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for the first time since I ve heard about this game I am actualy having second thoughts on buying the game. The mass fleet things going to happen. If you say so or not. If hes barrel rolling over my planets and I am losing income, then how can I mount an attack when I am trying to get the mass fleet off of me. All the good work that went into the game and now hearing this has shattered all hopes and dreams I ve had for this game since day one. :vsd:

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In theory you can still do hit and runs, and raids to cripple the Empire....

 

You make a squadron of Y-Wings, X-Wings, A-Wings, and a couple of Corvettes and gunboats, send them into the fight and concentrate on protecting the Y-Wings until they can destroy whatever target you were after, while the fighters do cover... And I imagine you could probably do raids on planets deep inside their space...

 

While I played a modded version of the demo I found myself leaving nothing but structures and garrisons on my planets, and keeping fleets in a defensive pattern, since I found ships couldn't go from one planet to another directly when they're a few sectors away, I figured out which planets they'd have to go through first and setup fleets there, leaving my ass a target... If raid fleets can go through these without a combat, then you should be able to attack one of their ass end planets, wont affect their masive fleet, but it should do enough to make the enemy spread out their fleet to provide enough protection so as to avoid future raids....

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We experimented with persistant damage, maintainance costs and such, but found that it added nothing but confusion and frustration for players.

 

With all due respect but what players ? Any player who like the strategy will love to have those options in the game. On the other hand if you talk about a la warcraft and starcraft players then is normal for them to be confused since all they know to do is to click as fast as possible on shortcuts and on icons. They don't even think they rush. The tower rush killed the AOE 1 and 2 which forced dev team to set only limited number of towers in AOE3.

 

Having to plan my retreat in case if something goes wrong is the part of the strategy. Weakening the ennemy is the part of the strategy. Resupplying the fleet and making necessery reparations is the part of the strategy. Having to secure supply lines is the part of the strategy.

 

But after all may be I'm too old and I ask too much whereas young guys all they want is the fast action with minimum time of preparation before engagement.

 

IMHO taking out the 3d and making 2.5D was the good move but making instant repairs was the bad decision eventhough you tryed to compasate with pop cap and the weakness of ships.

 

Unfortunately this will not be fixable with mods unless making construction time insanely long.

 

The pure strategy game magazines will not miss you with this one.

 

 

You make a squadron of Y-Wings, X-Wings, A-Wings, and a couple of Corvettes and gunboats, send them into the fight and concentrate on protecting the Y-Wings until they can destroy whatever target you were after, while the fighters do cover... And I imagine you could probably do raids on planets deep inside their space...

[/Quote]

You don't get it arent you ?

 

If you face a large fleet there is no way for you that you can destroy some hard points on capital ships before retreating becase the repairs are immediate.

 

Imagine this.

 

You found out that your opponent is massing a large fleet to attack you. Your fleet is on the other side of the galaxy and all you have are cuple of X-wings and Y-wings.

 

You decided to pay him a litle visit and to strike some hard points which should help you later or at least buy you some time because he would initiate repairs.

 

With the actual system this isn't paying off because as soon as the battle has ended repairs are done it is just like you did nothing. You will have to destroy an entire ship. If your oponent isn't stupid or a total noob he will have patrol boats to prevent bomber runs. You will not be able to destroy all hard points of the ship before your bombers are wiped out.

 

Double-posting is evil. -LIAYD

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so far every decision they've made in all of these tough situations, I have not agreed with one of their decisions. Hopefully we can mod the game to fix these probelms me and other players will not like. If only they went into the direction of strategy more than arcade, man how more amazing the game can be. Hey game prob will still be amazing!

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If you do it right then you'd go in, take out smaller ships first, and then retreat, rebuild your fighters and launch another hit and run... Go for the smaller ships first, then take on the larger ones... The corvettes and gunboats would soak up fire from the patrol craft...

 

The build times take longer in the final build... So, let's say a Star Destroyer takes 2 minutes to build, well you can fly in there with a small strike force and take out, have the A-Wings lure enemy fighters away and towards a couple of corvettes, while the X-Wings and gunboats go with the Y-Wings and attack either the hard points on the Star Destroyer, or work on taking out the frigates and patrol craft... As you destroy those craft, well it's going to take some time to rebuild and reposition them.

 

Assuming Star bases have to be fully upgraded to build all ships, and that Star Destroyers will only be buildable on those four planets that are in the mod, then as you destroy craft, unless it's at a production planet, then getting his losses back will take some time.

 

Fighters are expendable and take very little time to build, so say you send in 5 Y-Wings and you lose 2 squadrons, and a 3rd to the retreat loss, well you only need to build 3 in a few moments, while the enemy has larger ships that need to be rebuilt. If the empire wants fighters they need to build ships with hangers... Those whips will take time to rebuild....

 

 

It's a good system, it'll just take alot of effort to be able to pull off proper hit and runs.... It can be done... For the fleet to be balanced right you'd need a bunch of corvettes and destroyers, if you offset that balance just right, you'll cripple the fleet and be able to bring in yours to make up the difference....

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I agree with Darth_Torpid-PG on this one.

 

Two Reasons

1) it feels more Star Wars ish. You never see battle damage being a factor.

 

2) You cant use the big flet method. Those rebels are crafty. You have to defend every planet or something is going to get raided big time. Cant tell you how many space stations I have lost playing the demo mods, thinking that way enought to defend a planet. Also the big fleet thing might work at the very end which is good no, running around dragging the game out forever. Once the tide has clearly turned it will be over in a grand sort of way.

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f you do it right then you'd go in, take out smaller ships first, and then retreat, rebuild your fighters and launch another hit and run... Go for the smaller ships first, then take on the larger ones... The corvettes and gunboats would soak up fire from the patrol craft...[/Quote]

 

Those small ships are ant-aircraft ships. The main goal of every raid is to take our or to dammage targets of hihg importance such as ISD or VSD.

 

@aggie_john

 

It isn't about how good does it feel it's about giving a little bit of salt to the game.

In movies (since you started to refer to them in the first place) the Empire was unable to knock out the rebelion even with its hughe fleet because supply lines were stretched across the galaxy and were vunerable to the rebelion attack. It's a major problem of every army. Guerilla war is all about hit the ennemy make some dammage to vital targets and run.

 

I sincerly hope that this game will not turn into another generals or command and conquer ? I really put some high excpetation on this game but as it is for now all RTS games on the market have pale-faced strategy.

 

Man I really miss MAX time.

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With all due respect but what players ? Any player who like the strategy will love to have those options in the game. On the other hand if you talk about a la warcraft and starcraft players then is normal for them to be confused since all they know to do is to click as fast as possible on shortcuts and on icons. They don't even think they rush.

I totally aggree on this. There are Real Time Strategies out there, and there are Real Time Strategies as well...one category is strategy as it meant to be, the other is an FPS where you control a bunch of guns, without being a specific one.

 

Having to plan my retreat in case if something goes wrong is the part of the strategy. Weakening the ennemy is the part of the strategy. Resupplying the fleet and making necessery reparations is the part of the strategy. Having to secure supply lines is the part of the strategy.

I believe that a good RTS, scifi or history-based, should first take a serious look to what's happening in the real wars. All the above are simply real war tactics/demands for victory and in my humble opinion are not that "difficult" to think, even for a newbie. Besides, hunting the enemy to death, even if that sounds by far cruel (we talk about war afterall), is in many circumstances the point of a long-term attack.

 

But after all may be I'm too old and I ask too much whereas young guys all they want is the fast action with minimum time of preparation before engagement.

 

The pure strategy game magazines will not miss you with this one.

I don't think age has to do with what a RTS should implement, and of course, we're not referring to hard-core RTS gamers, but those that play strategy games and not the above-mentioned "FPS-look strayegies".

 

Non the less, nor RTS magazines, nor the a logical RTS gamer will ignore the many, many wrong decisions taken, in favor of...i don't know...No offence taken, the game still looks nice, but "in favour of balancy issue", it was butchered...

 

Diplomacy was completely wiped out, wiping out with its turn the 99% part of what the Galactic Map could offer as a turn-based feature. Now, all that it does, it's moving forces here and there. The "statistics" screen only reminds something of some good diplomacy features...

 

Instant repair is the finishing stroke.

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I bet you Petroglyph is looking at this going "Now you know how we felt!"

I don't know how they regard players/customers and i don't think they're the kind of people "we grabbed your money, now tell whatever you want", since they proved the contrary so far, not only by statements by with their whole interactivity.

 

Besides, we're not trying to blame anyone, it's just a personal (and not only, obviously) opinion that must be heard and not gulped down, if we want to see better (<-- biased word of coursed...) RTS coming up.

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*Makes mental note* So they must make repairs in... Hyperspace!

 

It has all become clear now!

 

They don't have enough Palpatine approved viewing materials on those ISDs, so they put those crews to work repairing the ships while in hyperspace! What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken of working outside the ship while in hyperspace??! Never fear, we have a whole army of astromech driods to do the dirty work! What do you mean they left? Restraining bolts found in the toilet!? *begins force choke*

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Here is my "simple solution" to the persistant damage debate...

 

Why not just use the game clock to determine repairs?

Each day is broken down into, I think, 6 squares. Why not allow each ship to repair 5% of EVERY hard point when a time sqaure fills up. By oversimplifying it, there would be no need to micromanage. You could also build buildings which aid in repairing, say adds 5% each time square. If there are 6 sqaures per day, each ship repairs 30% a day, which I think is feasible. Or you could just make smaller ships repair faster than larger ship. Just an idea...

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I don't think the mass fleet tactic is going to happen. Your going to have to concentrate all your money to building a fleet, and not to mention if you want ISDs or Mon Cals you have to control specific planets. Then you will have to spend all money on the fleet leaving your other planets exposed. Not to mention to get money you need planets. So your gonna have to capture planets some how, but you wont be able to because you wont have money. Therefore your oponent will be able to capture the rest of the galaxy and then build their fleet and whip you out.

 

Persistant repair isnt necesary. I always hated maintenance cost in Rebellion. If you want persistant damage so badly, go buy Rebellion it has it :D

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Some of you have hit the nail on the head.

 

While we are aware that many of our customers like you are very strategy savvy and enjoy all of the details, many others are people who have never played an RTS or strategy game in their lives and purchase the game because it is Star Wars. Part of a designer's job is to balance a game such that it will appeal to both extremes. It's not easy to do, because you just can't please everyone.

 

Not adding repair was not an idle decision. There were many focus tests throughout the entire development period. Many things were removed based on these tests, and many things were added. The post-battle damage and maintenance system was one of those things that got cut. It just didn't add any fun, and in fact frustrated and confused many of the players.

 

But I think this is one of those issues (like religion and politics) that no matter what I say you will form your own opinions – and there’s nothing wrong with that. My PERSONAL belief is that the game is better for not having to worry about repair costs and time. Really, only playing the final game will prove your point or mine. For now, all I can really do is forward your concerns to the rest of the team, and watch the reactions of the fan sites. Time will tell :)

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