Sad day for America

[Guest Hannibal]

This is the third time I've written this post, so excuse me if I seem a bit grumpy(ISP problems)

 

I think I'll respond to Admiral's post first, as it is both similar to Rebel Loyaltist's post and much clearer.

 

"I don't like war, in fact I despise it. That proverd means not to cherish war. It is a necessary evil."

Well that's the wrong attitude from the start, but I'm not here to preach pacifism nor non-cooperation with evil.

 

"2.So let me get this straight we shouldn't use our military to attack the terrorist. Do you want to send in the police, and ask them to surrender? Military is the only way"

You don't have it straight at all. Still, I'm not here to explain the more subtle ways power works in this world, nor am I here to teach a lesson on what relationships agencies such as the CIA and the Mossad have with NGOs(namely, those of violent persuasion) Perhaps Sun Tzu(you'd better know who he is) said it best: "Therefore the skilful leader subdues the enemy's troops without any fighting; he captures their cities without laying siege to them; he overthrows their kingdom without lengthy operations in the field."

 

"3.I'm sorry but please show me where exactly have we conquered some country, or say slaughtered a lot of people, because they didn't agree with us, or put them in prison?"

Assuming "we" refers to the United States...

Example 1: The Native Americans(yes, there were people here before "the white man.")

Apparently these "Indians" didn't think the U.S. should break treaties, steal ancestral land, and slaughter tribes. Clearly, the United States did not agree, resulting in borken treaties, stolen land, and slaughtered tribes.

 

Example 2: Japanese Americans

For some reason the U.S. decided that to go to war with Japan, it was necessary to detain the Japanese American population of the West Coast in remote concentration camps. Why? We don't know, because none of those detained were ever convicted of espionage.

 

Are there more blemishes on America's record? Of course, but I won't bother continuing.

 

Well, on to Rebel Loyaltist's post...

"1. We'll hit our targets don't worry about that."

Is that so? With what? If you said "smart bombs," think again. Smart bombs aren't so smart as the inital NATO reports from Operation Desert Storm indicated(and conventional bombs were widely used also). Besides, a bomb is only as smart as the guy who tells it where to go(and I'm not talking about pilots here).

 

"4. NATO allies (Frzance, Britian etc.) are backing us up. Watch the news and you'd knpw this."

And is NATO all that matters? I think not.

 

Don't give me all that jingoistic "freedom" crap. I hate to quote Lenin, but he still puts it well: "Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners." If you can't grasp the meaning of that, don't bother replying to it.

[Guest Hannibal]

"SOB_Thrawn refers to a once grand JK/MOTS/Obi-Wan clan. It is famed in some circles."

Ok, the SOB I know is a clan that plays several mainstream first person shooters(and a few not-so mainstream mods) and operates several servers for my favorite UT mod. Clearly, I don't know anything about JK/MOTS clans.

[edlib]

Example 2: Japanese Americans

For some reason the U.S. decided that to go to war with Japan, it was necessary to detain the Japanese American population of the West Coast

in remote concentration camps. Why? We don't know, because none of those detained were ever convicted of espionage.

 

Part of the reason they were detained at that time was for thier own protection. Otherwise there would have been a massive number of unprovoked racial killings in this country at that time.

 

Think about it.

 

There were many peace-loving, otherwise non-violent American citizens who would've gladly ripped apart the first asian they saw with thier bare hands if given the chance. No questions asked. We are already seeing that now with people of middle-eastern decent at this time.

 

[This message has been edited by edlib (edited September 17, 2001).]

[Nute Gunray]

Originally posted by Hannibal:

We don't know, because none of those detained were ever convicted of espionage.

 

...because they were in the ****ing CAMPS. you can't be SPYING if you're in a DETENTION CAMP.

 

duh

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

*This is Rogue 7. I'm starting my run...*

 

Balls to Sun Tzu. Let's try Musashi instead; he, at least, had an intuitive grasp of zen which made him undefeatable in single combat. An unqualified master of the 'mind game,' this is what he has to say in 'Becoming the Opponent' (from the Fire Scroll in The Book of Five Rings.)

 

'Becoming the opponent means you should put yourself in an opponent's place and think from the opponent's point of view.

 

'As I see the world, if a burgular holes up in a house, he is considered a powerful opponent. from his point of view, however, the whole world is against him; he is holed up in a helpless situation. The one who is holed up is a pheasant; the one who goes in there to fight it out is a hawk. This calls for careful reflection.

 

'In large scale military science as well, opponents are thought of as powerful and dealt with carefully. When you have good troops, know the principles of martial arts well, and sense the way to overcome an opponent, you need not worry.'

 

Hmm. Sounds to me as if the samurai master himself thinks we should go in there and kick the ever-loving dogsh*t out of some terrorist scumbags...

 

 

 

------------------

'What's up is clearly defined as the opposite of what is down, in this case being the strongest source of local gravity...failing that, in space, what's up is opposite the direction of accelerative G-force--or, coincidentally, the same direction I happen to be targeting with these laser cannon. Die, b*tch!'

 

--Official forum space terrorist

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

Changing that sig a bit...

 

------------------

'What's up is clearly defined as the opposite of what is down, in this case being the strongest source of local gravity...failing that, in space, what's up is opposite the direction of accelerative G-force--or, coincidentally, the same direction I happen to be targeting with these laser cannon. Die, b*tch!'

 

--Official forum space freedom fighter

[Guest Zoom Rabbit]

*This is Rogue 7, moving on to secondary objective...*

 

'Are there more blemishes on America's record? Of course, but I won't bother continuing.'

 

Listen, cheese head. I am the most liberal barkeating hippy peacenik to ever find his way out of a Greenpeace rally...as recently as today I strongly protested someone dumping anti-freeze down the drain to poison MY trees...examples of US misdeeds and atrocities are a favorite subject of my own as well; it's a standard in the routine.

 

Things have changed.

 

For us liberals, the issue of loyalty to country has (for most of us) vanished. The nature of life in our country has changed in such a way that we simply can't afford to focus on what divides us. We and the conservatives are moving toward the center; it's instinct, something our people know they must do in order to survive.

 

The misdeeds of our past are still there. They are in the past of EVERY country or culture, and this is a key insight. No nation, like no person, is without fault...and if that nation has been paying attention, then perhaps it can learn from those faults. This is what the liberal legacy (hopefully) has brought to the table in this time of common effort.

 

Those faults should be dropped from the agenda for now. We should speak up when past mistakes are being repeated (as in our mistreatment of our own Arab-American citizens, which I brought up in the 'Islam' thread,) but otherwise, to drag out dirty laundry at this time of crisis is extremely bad form.

 

Hannibal, this is a very touchy issue for playing devil's advocate. Don't expect to win a lot of friends doing so...

 

 

[Guest Fondas]

I deliberately stayed away from this thread for so long, since things needed to cool down a little.

 

Let me begin by saing that this is a terrible atrocity, condemned by every logical thinking human on Earth. My sympathy to the victims' families.

 

Now, about retaliating....

Yes, something must be done. The murdererd must be brought to justice, but bombing the hell out of whole countries is not exactly that...

 

The US have activated the 5th paragraph of the NATO treaty, forcing every member to military action. I do not oppose to the idea, but don't we need hard evidence before WE start to flatten countries and killing innocents?

 

 

[Guest Fondas]

I can't post in this thread !!!!!

[Keyan Farlander]

That's funny, because you did it four times

[Guest Fondas]

ooops !

 

Apart from the moral dilemma, there is something else: Their response.

 

Guerilla tactics were never easy to deal with. On top of that , from our point of view, they are insane fanatics. They have nothing to lose but their lives. They get brainwashed since childhood that killing infidels is a sure way to heaven.

 

What will stop them to blow themselves up in subways, buildings , etc ???

 

There is also a strong rumor that they have obtained nuclear weapons from the former USSR. If we come to that, it won't matter who's wrong or right, or who started the whole story.

 

So , let's think before we turn cockroaches into the dominant species of this planet...

 

 

[Nute Gunray]

I predict an asskicking like the world has never seen. OH THE AFGHANIS BEAT THE RUSSIANS BY HIDING IN CAVES! Yeah, well we got satellites that can FIND THE RAGHEADS INSIDE THEIR CAVES. Russia didnt' have THOSE. We are going to stomp on their necks like some many things that...get...their necks...stomped on I've seen video of the terrorists training and stuff and I'm really concerned. Do they really believe that the safest way to clear a room is to literally jump through the door flailing about and then shooting in every direction? And their armed forces seemed quite..****ty. I mean, they showed some al-Qaeda or whatever 'armored unit' consisting of a bus with no windows and two Russian T-80s that had been on fire at some point, judging from the 75% of the tank being 'charred.'

 

eh, i approve the us of chemical weapons to smoke them out of their holes. not the nasty kind that kill you, just the kind that make you really sick to teh stomach and your eyes water a lot. then they'll run out of the cave, making it easier for them to get neutralized.

 

If afghanistan/bin Laden got a nuke, using it against the US (who, thanks to cheating on our treaties has 11,000 nuclear warheads) while NATO has Article 5 invoked...that would shoot right to the top of the list of "stupidest things ever done."

[Guest Hannibal]

"...because they were in the ****ing CAMPS. you can't be SPYING if you're in a DETENTION CAMP.

 

duh"

I'm not even going to bother with this one.

 

"Part of the reason they were detained at that time was for thier own protection. Otherwise there would have been a massive number of unprovoked racial killings in this country at that time."

Logical, and there were problems before people were moved, but the line "for your own protection" combined with a suspension of basic human rights makes one a bit suspicious...Were any German Americans moved from the East Coast?

 

Rogue 7: those are some nice quotes, but they don't really have relevance to what I was talking about.

 

"For us liberals, the issue of loyalty to country has (for most of us) vanished."

I wasn't talking about loyalty in any way, I was simply refuting Admiral's statement.

 

"Hannibal, this is a very touchy issue for playing devil's advocate. Don't expect to win a lot of friends doing so... "

Lol, I think you understand what I'm doing. I'm not trying to win friends, just get people's heads out of their asses.

 

[edlib]

And once they're out, then what?

[JR2000Z]

Originally posted by Hannibal:

"SOB_Thrawn refers to a once grand JK/MOTS/Obi-Wan clan. It is famed in some circles."

Ok, the SOB I know is a clan that plays several mainstream first person shooters(and a few not-so mainstream mods) and operates several servers for my favorite UT mod. Clearly, I don't know anything about JK/MOTS clans.

 

WTF does this have to do with anything?!?!?

[Guest Thrawn]

To add on to Nute's post, the U.S. learned valuable lessons about fighting people bunkered into caves fighting the Japanese in WWII.

 

And though we didn't win in Vietnam, we learned all about guerilla warfare there.

 

So a simple equation.

WWII Cave Fighting+Vietnam Warfare= Taliban screwed

 

------------------

"Here, people don't lock their doors, they deadbolt them, and then stick a chair under the knob."

ThRaWn90,RAL_Thrawn,SOB_Thrawn

Rogue 6

[Rebel Loyaltist]

Originally posted by Hannibal:

Well, on to Rebel Loyaltist's post...

"1. We'll hit our targets don't worry about that."

Is that so? With what? If you said "smart bombs," think again. Smart bombs aren't so smart as the inital NATO reports from Operation Desert Storm indicated(and conventional bombs were widely used also). Besides, a bomb is only as smart as the guy who tells it where to go(and I'm not talking about pilots here).

 

"4. NATO allies (Frzance, Britian etc.) are backing us up. Watch the news and you'd knpw this."

And is NATO all that matters? I think not.

 

Don't give me all that jingoistic "freedom" crap. I hate to quote Lenin, but he still puts it well: "Freedom in capitalist society always remains about the same as it was in ancient Greek republics: Freedom for slave owners." If you can't grasp the meaning of that, don't bother replying to it.

 

1. Well with Intel we'll know where there stuff is therefore hit our target.

 

2. Well how can NATO not matter if they're going to back us up?

 

3. OK first don't bring up the slave **** aight my ancestors were slaves. I know what it's like to look down upon because I was black. But yet we've come back from that and can be looked on as normal people. And I enjoy my freedom and want to make sure other people don't have to go through what my people did.

 

"I'm not trying to win friends, just get people's heads out of their asses."

 

Why not start with yours?

 

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If you leap before you look, I'm not catching you sorry ass!

[Nute Gunray]

Originally posted by Hannibal:

"...because they were in the ****ing CAMPS. you can't be SPYING if you're in a DETENTION CAMP.

 

duh"

I'm not even going to bother with this one.

 

Nute: 1 You: 0

 

Were any German Americans moved from the East Coast?

 

No, because you can't tell a German from a Eastern Frenchman or a Swiss or a Western Pole. You can tell Japanese from Chinese and from Korean. That may sound racist to some, but it's true. Europeans all look the same for some reason and other parts of the world don't.

 

Nute: 2 You: 0

 

just get people's heads out of their asses.

 

OH NO! THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF CIVILIANS DIED AND WE WANT RETRIBUTION! MY OPINION TELLS US THAT IS CLEARLY WRONG, DESPITE THE FACT THAT 86% OF THE US SAYS IT WAS AN ACT OF WAR AND MEANS THAT WE HAVE OUR HEADS UP OUR ASSES!!@ I don't see your point. I get another point

 

Nute: 3 You: 0

 

i win.

[Poor Bastard]

Originally posted by Tek Gunner:

****ing taarkin stop copying and pasting every ****ing thing you find at somethingawful. i mean, ****.

 

Yes.

 

Originally posted by Thrawn:

SOB_Thrawn refers to a once grand JK/MOTS/Obi-Wan clan. It is famed in some circles.

 

ahaha

[Gold leader]

Where's Scipio when you need him?

[Zargon]

Hey Hannibal, you are VERY good at being a hypocrite yourself bud. Are you going to sit there and pretend that no other country EVER killed off the indians? Who do you think cleared out the Aztek's and Maya's among others? the USA? Not to mention the things the Romans did to the 'barbarians' in Europe, and the Crusades for god's sake?! Jesus ****ing Christ man, you r head isnt just up your ass, its way past your prostate and residing in your ****ing pancrease if you think people are going to let your weakass bull**** change an opinion. Yes, you were right, we ****ing WIPED OUT the native american population, including the ENTIRE EXTENDED FAMILY of my great grandmothers parents. Are people sitting around today and saying, "you killed the jews so you can't talk" to the Germans everytime they take action against a Terrorist organization?

THERE IS NO COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE A BLEMISH ON IT'S RECORD. Ya Know, we did fight a war To FREE SLAVES also.......

[Guest Hannibal]

About the whole clan discussion, that was a side conversation that doesn't really apply to anything or anyone else.

 

"So a simple equation.

WWII Cave Fighting+Vietnam Warfare= Taliban screwed"

First off, the Taliban is screwed whatever happens(unless they give up Bin Laden, then they're only partly screwed) Secondly, our(that of the United States) army is still designed for European battlefields, not another Vietnam-esque scenario, so that equation doesn't necessarily add up.

 

"1. Well with Intel we'll know where there stuff is therefore hit our target."

Intel! Intel? First off, I don't think anyone here is qualified to lecture on our "intel" on Afghan terrorist groups(and if they are, they won't). As far as I know, valuable intel is rather lacking in this case.

 

"2. Well how can NATO not matter if they're going to back us up?"

I didn't say NATO didn't matter, I just said that NATO isn't ALL that matters.

 

"3. OK first don't bring up the slave **** aight my ancestors were slaves. I know what it's like to look down upon because I was black. But yet we've come back from that and can be looked on as normal people. And I enjoy my freedom and want to make sure other people don't have to go through what my people did."

I'm not talking about race here. If you think you're free, either you're wrong or I have grossly miscalculated your identity.

 

"'I'm not trying to win friends, just get people's heads out of their asses.'

 

Why not start with yours?"

That'll come later.

 

And Nute makes the most accurate statement of the day: "I don't see your point."

You win.

 

"THERE IS NO COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE A BLEMISH ON IT'S RECORD. Ya Know, we did fight a war To FREE SLAVES also......."

Your first point is quite correct, but it doesn't have any bearing on the point I was making. About the second statement you make...please enlighten me as to which was THAT was(and don't you dare say 'The Civil War' because I don't have the time nor the desire to lecture on U.S. history)

 

"And once they're out, then what?"

Then we can talking about what will really work against these terrorists

[Nute Gunray]

The Friday, Evening edition of the Pittsburgh Post Gazette published a map provided to it by the DOD. It was a map of Afghanistan featuring the locations of al-Qaida camps in Eastern Afghanistan. SOMEONE knows something...

The intel is there. Not much, but there's something.

[Rebel Loyaltist]

Originally posted by Hannibal:

About the whole clan discussion, that was a side conversation that doesn't really apply to anything or anyone else.

 

"So a simple equation.

WWII Cave Fighting+Vietnam Warfare= Taliban screwed"

they're only partly screwed) Secondly, our(that of the United States) army is still designed for European battlefields, not another Vietnam-esque scenario, so that equation doesn't necessarily add up.

 

"1. Well with Intel we'll know where there stuff is therefore hit our target."

Intel! Intel? First off, I don't think anyone here is qualified to lecture on our "intel" on Afghan terrorist groups(and if they are, they won't). As far as I know, valuable intel is rather lacking in this case.

 

"2. Well how can NATO not matter if they're going to back us up?"

I didn't say NATO didn't matter, I just said that NATO isn't ALL that matters.

 

"3. OK first don't bring up the slave **** aight my ancestors were slaves. I know what it's like to look down upon because I was black. But yet we've come back from that and can be looked on as normal people. And I enjoy my freedom and want to make sure other people don't have to go through what my people did."

I'm not talking about race here. If you think you're free, either you're wrong or I have grossly miscalculated your identity.

 

"'I'm not trying to win friends, just get people's heads out of their asses.'

 

Why not start with yours?"

That'll come later.

 

And Nute makes the most accurate statement of the day: "I don't see your point."

You win.

 

"THERE IS NO COUNTRY THAT DOESN'T HAVE A BLEMISH ON IT'S RECORD. Ya Know, we did fight a war To FREE SLAVES also......."

Your first point is quite correct, but it doesn't have any bearing on the point I was making. About the second statement you make...please enlighten me as to which was THAT was(and don't you dare say 'The Civil War' because I don't have the time nor the desire to lecture on U.S. history)

 

"And once they're out, then what?"

Then we can talking about what will really work against these terrorists

 

Gulf War? We know about Mid-Eastern Terrain.

 

I'm talking on Intel on Military Locatiosn. Also we have stuff that we don't know so you lose this one.

 

Oh yes NATO will matter when they're helping us kick someone's ass.

 

OK get this straight ass-popper their's no mistaking my identity. Also I not wrong. I an many other African Americans feel free. We my have times where people oh still look down on us but those people just won't let go of the past and see people for what the really are. Now give me a reason why you think African Americans aren't? That's right you sure as hell can't so next time fine out about **** before ****ing posting it. I think you need to get your head outta your ass NOW not later. Maybe then you'll learn some sense.

 

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If you leap before you look, I'm not catching you sorry ass!

[Zargon]

Originally posted by Hannibal:

About the second statement you make...please enlighten me as to which was THAT was(and don't you dare say 'The Civil War' because I don't have the time nor the desire to lecture on U.S. history)

 

Good, because I don't want to hear it. I had a very VERY liberal crack ass Hist 146 Prof that believed there was a conspiracy in Congress to lose the war so that they could keep slaves under the Confederacy(But Grant got in the way she said)....I am hoping nothing you would say is that retarded. But believe what you like, Alot fo changes during that was were made by the abolitionsit movement and Pres. Lincoln to help the slaves and Ex-Slaves. It's not their fault alot of others weren't ready top treat them equal.