The Mentally Deficient

[Emperor Devon]

I spend time typing my points, and now you ignore nearly all of them?

 

But what if you can't have anymore? Abortion can affect fertility.

 

After one try? Unless it's genetic, having two mentally retarded kids in a row is unlikely. But there's always adoption.

 

You can detect an abnormal gene pattern, but how much that gene pattern penetrates and how strongly it's expressed can vary so widely it's impossible to predict what the outcome will be.

 

True, though I have already addressed this issue.

 

Did you gloss over the part where I told you that was quite untrue? Because that's not true at all.

 

Given how many people there are in the world with so many different views on things, that does not apply to everyone.

 

and couldn't possibly be happier,

 

You can always be happier.

 

but I guaranTEE my parents would love me NO LESS than they do now were I completely retarded.

 

I presume that the fact you would be like an overgrown toddler would have no bearing in that?

[ET Warrior]

My parents love me because I am their son. Not because I'm a 'contributing member of society'.

[Emperor Devon]

My parents love me because I am their son. Not because I'm a 'contributing member of society'.

 

That's not what I asked. Would your parents be irritated now and then if you required as much care as a 2-year old?

[CapNColostomy]

That's not what I asked. Would your parents be irritated now and then if you required as much care as a 2-year old?

 

 

Parents will be irritated with children now and then regardless of age or level of care needed. This helps you make your point in no way at all. On a side note, Karma's awesome. I swear that one day, I will laugh at you and your retarded offspring.

[Samuel Dravis]

That's not society, that's government! Society is brutal and heartless... much like myself it seems.

I tend to think that government is (or at least is supposed to be) nothing more than an extension of society's will. It's a fair bet that the general public actually likes that the government does what it's doing, because they're the ones that made it happen in the first place. So when I mentioned those things, it just means that society cared enough about the issue to actually do something substantial about it.

 

They do jobs that you could literally train a monkey to do. Imagine how awesome it would be to have a monkey working as a ticket collector at a movie theater. It wouldn't be the greatest employee, but hey, at least it wouldn't ask for a paycheck.

Would you say the same thing about the Industrial Revolution and how so many people lost their jobs to factories? Man, those guys were so stupid their jobs got taken over by machines with no brain at all. Srsly. Such simple jobs that a machine could do it, and twenty times faster too! At least the machines don't ask for a paycheck; they seem to be more useful to society than those jokers that worked before anyway. These rat cells seem pretty promising too. I bet we could put some pilot out of a job with them soon enough... serves 'em right for doing a job rat cells can do! I mean, can you even imagine something more demeaning than doing a job something else is better/equal at? I bet those cells don't even ask for a paycheck.

[sockerbit89]

No one here is suggesting that we FORCE people to have abortions when a doctor says the fetus is defective... that would make us no better than China.

 

Eh... look below (bold). That sounds more or less so.

I myself think they are a needless burden upon society. They take more than the average citizen, and give less back. Attempts to streamline them into public schools fail miserably from what I've seen and experienced, and asylums for them are a waste of resources. In my opinion, mothers should have abortions when they find out their child has a disorder that results in mental retardation, and thus end the problem and needless drain upon society.

 

Why are the people here who are pro-choice on abortion such critics of aborting for the reason that the child will be retarded?? If women are going to have the right to an abortion, why is it wrong to abort a defective fetus as opposed to a normal one? Kill the regular kid, instead of the retarded one? Are you guys just so concerned about being politically correct?

 

I'm for abortion of a child (disabled or not) but what this topic says is that disabled childrens should be aborted because they contribute less to society. It's like we should have some form of policy were the weakest are weeded out.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth.

Jae asked how you could know the degree of Down's Syndrome, not whether there was Down's Syndrome in the first place.

 

I've read about couples who found out that their child had Down Sydrome, for example, before birth.

No ****?!

 

So chances are yeah, you've met some and not even realized it.

This isn't terribly relevant to the main topic, but you're welcome to think that.

And you don't?

 

And yes, it is relevant to the discussion. It shows that "mentally deficient people" aren't necessarily so mentally deficient after all.

 

So why am I not allowed my "sterilize poor stupid people" policy?

Why not abort all low-class fetuses? If a kid's going to grow up in a slum and live on welfare its whole life, why let it live:rolleyes:?

 

They're about as useful as say, a dog.

Dogs? You mean Man's best friend, which makes life easier for untold numbers of people and

 

There's nothing that a retarded person can do that a normal person cannot.

There's nothing that an African person can do that a normal person cannot. Abort all African fetuses, 100% of them will just grow up to be bullied and beaten all their lives by racists anyhow.

 

I presume that the fact you would be like an overgrown toddler would have no bearing in that?

 

...Yes?

 

Heard about "unconditional love"?

 

As for having more children after a seriously disabled one:

Again, have you heard of parents who dare that? Really? A couple who give birth to a stillborn kid or who learn that the fetus or baby is disabled somehow, and then goes on to create another one?

 

I never have.

[Jae Onasi]

I spend time typing my points, and now you ignore nearly all of them?

Well, since it was after 1am my time on a school night, I picked the ones I thought needed an answer then. Nothing personal, I just needed to get some sleep.

 

 

After one try? Unless it's genetic, having two mentally retarded kids in a row is unlikely. But there's always adoption.

 

And if I want the whole pregnancy experience (and some women do), what choices do I have then? If my biological clock is running out when I have my first child, and it took me 5 years and fertility treatments to get pregnant, then yes, it might be my only shot at having a child.

 

If I have the right to abort, then I also have the right to continue the pregnancy, since it's my body, after all.

 

 

That's not what I asked. Would your parents be irritated now and then if you required as much care as a 2-year old?

(and continued later)

I presume that the fact you would be like an overgrown toddler would have no bearing in that?

 

I'm not sure how anyone could quantify the amount of love they'd have different if their child was normal vs. retarded.

 

Having parented toddlers, anyone of them is going to be irritating now and then.

There's no way I can explain adequately parental love for a child. You do anything for that child, and it doesn't matter what the strengths and weaknesses of that child are.

 

So if you were the boss at a movie theater or something and you had someone with Down syndrome working for you, and they spend more time taking breaks, or being confused and helpless, than actually working, you would have no problem whatsoever telling them they're a bad employee and is being fired? Then dealing with the lawsuit that follows? Retarded people are not treated as equals in society. If they did, there would be no such thing as "special education," and they'd be living on the streets without a penny to their name. But we're a caring society, as we should be, and we give special care to people with disabilities even though they're a burden.

 

Darn right I'd fire them if they weren't performing their job, just like I'd fire anyone else. I'm not in a parent situation there, I'm in a manager situation. They have to do the job if they want to continue to stay employed. If not, they need to find a different job. I'm not going to worry about firing them, either. First, a lawsuit is not inevitable. Second, you certainly can fire someone in a 'protected class' for non- or inadequate performance of job duties. I might have to provide documentation to the EEOC if they sued showing repeated misuse of job time, continued non-performance after counseling, and so forth, but it can be done. I'd certainly try to make sure they got the proper training to do the job, but if after that they screw up, and I've re-educated them on what their duties are and my expectations and they're still not doing the job correctly, then yes, firing them is an option.

People don't have a 'right' to be in a specific job. If the job duties are spelled out, the person isn't performing to those standards, or is misusing company time or doing something illegal, then terminate the employment, regardless of what their disability/race/gender status is.

 

A 2002 review of elective abortion rates found that 91–93% of pregnancies with a diagnosis of Down syndrome were terminated. (Wiki)

I'd have to surf Medline and research the relevent journal articles to confirm or debate that number.

Even so, it's the mother's/parent's decision to abort, and not something the state/society demands. Obviously, 7-9% feel it's important to carry the baby. That's their right to decide, not society's.

I also don't view them as any more burden on society than those who acquired brain injuries after birth.

The real burdens are those who could work but don't because they can get away with being lazy and mooching off of society.

[rccar328]

Frankly, the entire premise of this thread is dusgusting, and that's putting it mildly. The idea that a fetus - any fetus - should be aborted based on some arbitrary standard of their contribution to society smacks of Nazi-style eugenics. I personally know many mentally retarded people who do contribute to society, and live very fulfilled lives. I know others who are unable to contribute to society, but whose families don't regret that life because first of all, life is precious, whether the person is mentally disabled or not, and second, working to care for that person has drawn their family together and given them a depth of character that is hard to find in "normal" families.

 

A person's contribution to society cannot be judged merely by determining pre-birth that they will have some disorder. A person's contribution to society is judged throughout their life. There are homeless people out there who are a much greater "burden to society" than many retarded people. Should we just abort everybody on the off-chance that they might have some mental disorder, or might become a bum?

 

What's more, a person's contribution to society cannot be measured merely in terms of money. I personally have grown more determined as a person through my experiences of seeing people with disabilities persevere through the adversity that their disablility brings. I would even go so far as to say that many mentally handicapped people have contributed more to society than the financially successful through the life lessons that they can teach those around them simply through their struggle to function in a society that looks down on them.

 

 

To arbitrarily condemn someone to death because of some arbitrary standard is reprehensible. It doesn't matter whether you beleive that a fetus is a person or not - you're not even giving them a chance to be a person. Skip the judge and the jury, and head straight to the executioner, because we don't think you're contribution to society will be sufficient to justify you're existence. And no, you don't get to defend yourself, because you haven't even been born yet.

 

Disgusting.

 

This thread makes me want to puke.

[El Sitherino]

Not because I don't like them, but because I feel sorry for them. I feel sorry that they have to live in a world where they are inferior to others and must be treated like pets. I feel sorry for them, because they have no chance of ever living a normal life.

Bull****.

 

Your "I feel sorry for them" is a crappy cover for your deep rooted discrimination. You also say they are inferior and must be treated like pets, I've seen absolutely nothing to support that and ask that you give some citation.

 

And as for living a normal life, that depends on what you consider a normal life. I, as a so-labeled mentally deficient person, am leading what many would consider a normal life. I have a job, I go to school, I have a social life and interact with many types of people.

 

Also, you mention special education.

 

This shows your ignorance on the matter. If you actually knew anything about what you're discussing you would realize the point of special education is not to so much allow them a niche as it is to teach them roles in society and how to interact within society. It's called special education because each curriculum is based upon the particular students needs. And many are rather easily met, even in the most "difficult" cases.

 

Even when the maximum intellectual capacity is that of a 5 year old, you can teach someone nearly all the information they require to effectively interact with society.

 

 

Also your arguement that you can train a monkey to do a job holds no water. There are many jobs a monkey could do, so should we fire the people doing those jobs and replace them with monkeys? That'd be a hell of a lot of people out of work, and would probably spark Charlton Heston into some sort of psychotic rage.

[Emperor Devon]

Well, since it was after 1am my time on a school night, I picked the ones I thought needed an answer then. Nothing personal, I just needed to get some sleep.

 

What does jimbo think of how his wife stays up till 1 A.M. on online forums?

 

If my biological clock is running out when I have my first child, and it took me 5 years and fertility treatments to get pregnant, then yes, it might be my only shot at having a child.

 

That percentage of people is small enough, and then having a mentally retarded child makes it an even smaller percentage. But there's always adoption.

 

If I have the right to abort, then I also have the right to continue the pregnancy, since it's my body, after all.

 

My opinion on the matter might sound loopy to some people, but I disagree.

 

Having parented toddlers, anyone of them is going to be irritating now and then.

 

But when they stay that way for the rest of their lives?

 

Jae asked how you could know the degree of Down's Syndrome, not whether there was Down's Syndrome in the first place.

 

I have already addressed that issue.

 

Again, have you heard of parents who dare that? Really? A couple who give birth to a stillborn kid or who learn that the fetus or baby is disabled somehow, and then goes on to create another one?

 

Can't say I have, though it's likely. If you give birth to something that died in the womb, why not try again? You'd wanted a kid in the first place. If I ever wanted children and that was the result, I see nothing wrong with trying again.

 

I don't see why people are reacting in such a manner to this. All I'm proposing are abortions for if the child is mentally retarded. I have not and will not suggest rounding up and shooting people.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

Can't say I have, though it's likely. If you give birth to something that died in the womb, why not try again?

Because it's not exactly fun to lose a kid or make a kid that's "wrong" somehow. It's a disappointment, to say the least.

[El Sitherino]

But when they stay that way for the rest of their lives?

I've met many people like this. They're not retarded, simply dependent upon others. It could simply be a product of their upbringing (they were spoiled, etc.) or it could just be the fashion that their brain developed.

 

As it stands, the only point in the birth process at which you could, with any degree of accuracy, tell if a child is going to be born a retarded "burden" upon society is when the child has already crossed over the line into which they are representably human. Thought process has begun, genetics are completely in line, etc.

 

And as for rounding up and shooting. If that's not what you advocate, then you should re-think your reasoning for your beliefs, since they open the door to proposed ideas of just rounding up burdens and destroying them.

 

 

I think the biggest issue with this thread is the lack of understanding of human psychology and the proponents of this threads topic appear rather ignorant and uninformed of essentially every matter being discussed.

[CapNColostomy]

The simple fact is, all people are dependant on other people. From the food you eat, the clothes you wear, what you use for transportation, entertainment, etc...It bothers you that retarded people create jobs for the people who help families care for them? That's retarded all by itself.

[Prime]

All I'm proposing are abortions for if the child is mentally retarded.

The arrogance.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

The simple fact is, all people are dependant on other people. From the food you eat, the clothes you wear, what you use for transportation, entertainment, etc...It bothers you that retarded people create jobs for the people who help families care for them?

I thought about that, too.

 

The people who work for challenged people - do you want them to lose their jobs?

 

I don't see why people are reacting in such a manner to this. All I'm proposing are abortions for if the child is mentally retarded. I have not and will not suggest rounding up and shooting people.

What if you were? You could still say, "I don't see why you're so upset, I'm not suggesting dropping nuclear bombs here".

 

Just that you're not suggestion something even worse, does not mean what you're suggesting is OK.

[Emperor Devon]

The arrogance.

 

No one's even dying. Again, I'm not proposing any executions. Everyone would benefit. How is that so bad?

 

The people who work for challenged people - do you want them to lose their jobs?

 

The exact same set of skills could be applied to taking care of small children.

 

Because it's not exactly fun to lose a kid or make a kid that's "wrong" somehow. It's a disappointment, to say the least.

 

I agree, it would be most depressing. But there's no reason not to try again.

[TK-8252]

So... kind of like every employment opportunity.

 

I don't get what you mean.

 

Face it, there's no logical reason to terminate the retarded.

 

Then why in 2002 were 91–93% of pregnancies with Down syndrome terminated?

 

Provide evidence, cold hard facts, to support the claim that they are a burden on society in any fashion more severe than the average person.

 

They can't work? They can't drive? They can't eat? They can't learn like regular people? They have medical complications that regular people don't usually have? They act like toddlers all of their life?

 

So why am I not allowed my "sterilize poor stupid people" policy?

 

Because that's murder?

 

Poor, poor stephen hawking. Unable to lead a normal life. Treated like a pet / toddler. It makes me weep.

 

It's quite sad indeed.

 

yeah! And that hispanic guy only has a job because of Affirmative Action! And that woman only has her job because she has nice perky boobs. And that kid only got the job because his dad works there. And this could go on, but I hope I've made my point.

 

Not sure what your point is, because what you've said are very true in some cases. Not all cases but some.

 

We gonna start aborting dog fetus' too now? Useless to society, away they go?

 

There are dogs and cats being killed every day in pounds and it's very sad. It is however something that is necessary simply because there's not enough owners to go around.

 

Dogs actually do though have skills that a human doesn't have. Bomb-sniffing dogs for example.

 

And still nobody has explained how we can figure out any other "mental disorders" aside from Down Syndrome whilst still in the womb, prior to the development of a Central Nervous System. It really sounds like this is just a ploy to get rid of people with Down Syndrome.

 

Because Down syndrome is the biggest "offender" so to speak. I'm sure someone could do a quick search on Wikipedia and find out about all kinds of other disabilities and their diagnosis rates.

 

Would you say the same thing about the Industrial Revolution and how so many people lost their jobs to factories? Man, those guys were so stupid their jobs got taken over by machines with no brain at all. Srsly. Such simple jobs that a machine could do it, and twenty times faster too! At least the machines don't ask for a paycheck; they seem to be more useful to society than those jokers that worked before anyway. These rat cells seem pretty promising too. I bet we could put some pilot out of a job with them soon enough... serves 'em right for doing a job rat cells can do! I mean, can you even imagine something more demeaning than doing a job something else is better/equal at? I bet those cells don't even ask for a paycheck.

 

It's true that a machine can actually do a better job than workers when it comes to certain things. But all that means is that the workers who are now out of a job must now learn a more complex skill and adapt.

 

Why not abort all low-class fetuses? If a kid's going to grow up in a slum and live on welfare its whole life, why let it live?

 

It would actually be ideal for society if poor people didn't have kids. I'm totally against widespread abortion of course, as I've said previously.

 

Dogs? You mean Man's best friend, which makes life easier for untold numbers of people and

 

They only make life easier for cops...

 

There's nothing that an African person can do that a normal person cannot. Abort all African fetuses, 100% of them will just grow up to be bullied and beaten all their lives by racists anyhow.

 

OOH I've got an idea. They should have aborted every fetus in Japan during WWII, right Dagobahn??

 

That's their right to decide, not society's.

 

Uh... of course it is. No one in this thread has said that it's not the mother's choice. This thread is about whether it's a better decision to abort a fetus that will be retarded... which is something that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus apparently believe is right.

 

I also don't view them as any more burden on society than those who acquired brain injuries after birth.

 

That's true. But that brain-injured person is already born, so it's kinda TOO LATE to abort their fetus.

 

The idea that a fetus - any fetus - should be aborted based on some arbitrary standard of their contribution to society smacks of Nazi-style eugenics.

 

So are you saying that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus are following Nazi eugenics??

 

Hehe gotta love the Hitler card.

 

I personally know many mentally retarded people who do contribute to society, and live very fulfilled lives.

 

Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.

 

life is precious

 

Except the lives of Iraqi civilians? Or Lebanese civilians? Or... never mind, I could go on and on.

 

It doesn't matter whether you beleive that a fetus is a person or not - you're not even giving them a chance to be a person.

 

That's what any abortion - even any form of birth control or contraception for that matter - does.

 

And no, you don't get to defend yourself, because you haven't even been born yet.

 

Because you don't even exist yet.

 

Disgusting.

 

This thread makes me want to puke.

 

91-93% of pregnant women with a retarded fetus would disagree with you.

 

Your "I feel sorry for them" is a crappy cover for your deep rooted discrimination. You also say they are inferior and must be treated like pets, I've seen absolutely nothing to support that and ask that you give some citation.

 

Yes, because you certainly know my inner-most thoughts.

 

And as for living a normal life, that depends on what you consider a normal life. I, as a so-labeled mentally deficient person, am leading what many would consider a normal life. I have a job, I go to school, I have a social life and interact with many types of people.

 

I'd certainly not label you as someone who is mentally deficient.

 

Even when the maximum intellectual capacity is that of a 5 year old, you can teach someone nearly all the information they require to effectively interact with society.

 

How many years does it take and how many specialists does it take to accomplish such a task?

 

Also your arguement that you can train a monkey to do a job holds no water. There are many jobs a monkey could do, so should we fire the people doing those jobs and replace them with monkeys? That'd be a hell of a lot of people out of work, and would probably spark Charlton Heston into some sort of psychotic rage.

 

That would be sweet. We can fire all the low-level workers and teach them how to train the monkeys instead!

[rccar328]

So are you saying that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus are following Nazi eugenics??

Yes.

Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.

Geez...so instead of killing them before they're even born, how about working on a cure? There's a name for killing someone just because they're disabled and don't meet your arbitrary standard of living: it's called evil.

91-93% of pregnant women with a retarded fetus would disagree with you.

Evil by the numbers is still evil.

[TK-8252]

There's a name for killing someone just because they're disabled and don't meet your arbitrary standard of living: it's called evil.

 

Uh... how is aborting a fetus somehow the same as killing a living person.

 

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

[El Sitherino]

Then why in 2002 were 91–93% of pregnancies with Down syndrome terminated?

Probably the same reason a lot of abortions take place. You assume they were aborted simply because of the fact they had DS.

I'm sure if you look at a lot of abortions many of them will contain diseases and disorders. Whether that had any play in the decision of whether to abort or not is unknown to us, and to use a statistic like that as an arguement is foolish.

 

 

They can't work?

Untrue. Go to wal-mart.

 

They can't drive?

Neither can a lot of people, what does this have to do with their ability to interact with society? Many places around the world have minimal automobile usage.

 

They can't eat?

... Uh... wow.

 

They can't learn like regular people?

... No one learns the same, if you're going to argue that they don't meet some standard then you better be prepared to end a lot of lives.

Not to mention there are many people that suffer from learning disorders, they however are not retarded. They simply have an exotic thought process. Their brain handles information in a much more unique fashion. Are you saying we should abort those fetus' as well?

 

Once again, this will bring about an end to the human race.

 

 

They have medical complications that regular people don't usually have?

So do epileptics, diabetics, people with celiac disease,, people with ADHD, the list could go on.

 

Are we to abort them all?

 

 

They act like toddlers all of their life?

So do nearly all the people on the TCU campus, should we abort everyone that will be going to TCU?

 

 

Because that's murder?

So is abortion when done on a developed fetus. Thought process = awareness = life. Therefore termination = murder.

 

Bomb-sniffing dogs for example.

I'm sure we can find a bomb-sniffing autistic kid somewhere.

 

 

Because Down syndrome is the biggest "offender" so to speak. I'm sure someone could do a quick search on Wikipedia and find out about all kinds of other disabilities and their diagnosis rates.

The burden of that lies upon you and Devon. Since you guys are the ones advocating the abortion of "mentally deficient" people. And since I've seen you share the sentiment that a child is alive when the thought process begins, you're on a slippery slope of being a hypocrite.

 

 

It would actually be ideal for society if poor people didn't have kids.

How, exactly?

 

I'm totally against widespread abortion of course, as I've said previously.

Not really, if you truely believe the words you say.

 

 

They only make life easier for cops...

If you ignore several major catastrophic events as well as the daily life of a lot of people.

Pets provide an emotional support to people that cannot be recreated, same with kids.

 

 

Uh... of course it is. No one in this thread has said that it's not the mother's choice.

Your cries to "liberals" earlier gives a different impression.

 

Pro-choice means pro-choice.

 

This thread is about whether it's a better decision to abort a fetus that will be retarded... which is something that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus apparently believe is right.

Support that claim, numbers don't mean ****. You claim these women aborted simply on the reason that they don't want a tard for a child.

 

 

So are you saying that 91-93% of all women pregnant with a retarded fetus are following Nazi eugenics??

Gotta love blind assumptions based on ignorance.

 

 

Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.

Imagine how much greater life would be if *.

 

What if's and idealistic dreams are not a proper arguement.

 

91-93% of pregnant women with a retarded fetus would disagree with you.

Prove it or just stop talking.

 

 

I'd certainly not label you as someone who is mentally deficient.

Medical science would. Clearly your lack of understanding a term you use freely shows that you have no place in an arguement of this kind.

 

 

How many years does it take and how many specialists does it take to accomplish such a task?

A few years and a teacher that knows what they're doing. It's not that difficult. Since they're essentially child-like in mind for their life, they're very impressionable and learn quite well. It's simply about figuring out how to get to them, but then again it's the same with any child.

 

 

That would be sweet. We can fire all the low-level workers and teach them how to train the monkeys instead!

Get me a milkshake you damn dirty ape!

[Emperor Devon]

The burden of that lies upon you and Devon. Since you guys are the ones advocating the abortion of "mentally deficient" people. And since I've seen you share the sentiment that a child is alive when the thought process begins, you're on a slippery slope of being a hypocrite.

 

I would hesitate to call a fetus a living, sentient being.

 

That would be sweet. We can fire all the low-level workers and teach them how to train the monkeys instead!

 

It would definitely result in the declination of the prostitution industry.

[rccar328]

Uh... how is aborting a fetus somehow the same as killing a living person.

 

You're going to have to explain that one to me.

Whether you call it a "fetus" or a "person", it's still a human being. People, in their arrogance and complacency, try to mince words and re-define what it takes to be a "person" so that they won't have to deal with the inconvenience of having a child...hence the popularity of abortion.

 

Aborting babies due to mental disabilities is no different from killing adults with mental handicaps...you're just killing them sooner, rather than later. But this issue has already been played out in the abortion thread, so it's not really worth getting into here.

[swphreak]

Let's keep the abortions/is-a-fetus-a-human debate to the abortion thread.

 

This thread is about thoughts on people with "mental deficiencies."

 

No need to derail this thread anymore than it has.

[ET Warrior]

A couple who give birth to a stillborn kid or who learn that the fetus or baby is disabled somehow, and then goes on to create another one?

I actually have a cousin whose first child was stillborn, she has 4 kids now. So I have

 

But when they stay that way for the rest of their lives?

I still annoy my parents in a routine fashion, and I don't even live with them. Children are annoying, people are annoying. Unconditional love is just that. Unconditional. No conditions. You don't love a child less because they aren't as smart as the other kids. End O' Story.

 

Not sure what your point is, because what you've said are very true in some cases. Not all cases but some.

I suppose Sith and I weren't clear enough. You said, the only reason they will get a job is because the manager wants to help them or they feel bad for them. But in those kind of jobs, the only reason ANYONE gets the job is because the manager likes them more, or feels sorry for them, or just wants to help out. There is no standard of excellence for people to wash windows at McDonalds. No one person is more qualified than another.

 

They can't learn like regular people?

My sister is going to marry a man soon who has a severe learning disability. He doesn't learn like most people, it takes him much longer to learn anything new, and he has struggled his whole life getting through school. Shall I proclaim at the wedding reception that he should have been aborted so as to not burden society with his inability to learn like I do?

 

Dogs actually do though have skills that a human doesn't have.

So we can do selective dog abortions then. Only abort the useless breeds in an effort to improve society. Cool.

 

I'm totally against widespread abortion of course

Unless they're retards. Widespread retard abotion is A-okay!

 

OOH I've got an idea. They should have aborted every fetus in Japan during WWII, right Dagobahn??

Walking the ad-hominem line? Anywho, those babies probably would've just grown up to fight in the war if it hadn't ended, and that much war is bad for our society, so it seems reasonable enough following the logic presented by this retard-abortion schema.

 

Hehe gotta love the Hitler card.

If the shoe fits...

 

Imagine how much greater their life would be if they weren't disabled for their entire life.

Imagine how much not greater their life would be if they were aborted. And how do you know their life would be any better? There are a TON of 'normal' people who HATE their lives and end up killing themselves. Maybe they would have been one of those people if they weren't handicapped in some way. Do you know? I suspect you don't.

 

Yes, because you certainly know my inner-most thoughts.

Maybe not, but the "I feel sorry for them" line is worthless, as there are LOTS of people to feel sorry for, but just because you feel bad at their current situation doesn't mean they shouldn't have ever existed.

 

How many years does it take and how many specialists does it take to accomplish such a task?

Oh I don't know, since they're usually involved in special education programs from the time most kids would start school, all through high school, and maybe a few years after...I'd say no longer than any average person who made it through high school on average.