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Saber Style Differences


razorace
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My post from long ago:

 

My ideas (the ones of which i gave examples yesterday ace!) are as following:

 

Shii-Cho/Niman = Yellow with bought addon:

*Since its balanced and shii-cho focuses on simple combat with multiple opponents I suggest giving it one of the following abilities:

 

-Complete focus: If you meditate after youve reached 100 fp you can get an extra 25 that slowly run out after you stand up.

-No weaknesses in saber combat.

 

Makashi = Tavions:

-No extra backwhack damage for Makashi, people can slash your back and you'll lose the same dp as you would if someone slashed your front.

-Chance to disarm your opponent if you use a dfa or other special attack (maybe power attacks?) while your opponent is in a heavy bounce.

 

Soresu = Blue:

Well I'd like to say first of all that deflect should be toned down for Jedi and that it should be either a buyable power or just much harder to use. Now you autodeflect shots back at your enemies even if you're not aiming at them. Not just overpowered but not fun.

-Give Soresu the ability of regaining DP with a desperation riposte/parry fake.

Example: You're in red dp mode, your opponent is about to give you the final blow but you manage to riposte/parry fake it, you get about 15 dp back for it. (only works if you're in red DP)

-Give it a plus when fighting gunners too, make blaster deflects much more accurate (Thinking you WILL lower the current deflect rates).

 

Ataru = Dual style but with one hand:

-Jumps that are in the limit of jump 1 (say you jump 6 feet into the sky) drain no fp, neither do cartwheels and/or wall-acrobatic.

-Give jedi and sith the ability to stay in Speed (only for speed 3) for 1 fp every 3 seconds. "Force-assisted movement".

-DFA's of all kinds do more damage.

 

As a weakness, if you get hit while you're doing acrobatics or jumping you die instantly. No matter what weapon.

 

Djem-So = Red style:

Remove the 10 fp "fatigue" threshold. This style is nicknamed "perseverance", I think that people who like power and endurance will love to be able to churn out those extra few slashes to kill their opponents.

 

 

Shien = One handed staff style:

if only.. :(

 

Juyo = Desanns style:

Today it hit me after Hockney said that Makashi should do more damage if not parried. I think this is more of a feat for Juyo. Juyo is confusing and fast. It focuses less on power itself and more on speed and unconnected attacks.

This means that at one point any of your attacks could be critical ones, lethal ones.

-Your attacks do more dp damage if not parried.

 

As a con, I would like to see Juyo users be more sensitive to ripostes. Example: On just-over-half mishap Juyo users should be disarmable with a riposte.

 

 

The possibilities are endless however, i have many more ideas.. lets see what all of you think of these

 

I've added some more recent and plausible ideas too.

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I knew the first post would be form related. I should have placed bets...

 

Blue, Yellow, and Red styles have very real advantages with speed and more importantly reach.

 

Duals and Staffs are just an animation mess though. Not physically balanced for multiplayer play at all.

 

Tacking on more advantages and disadvantages is kinda unneccessary really.

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I knew the first post would be form related. I should have placed bets...

 

Blue, Yellow, and Red styles have very real advantages with speed and more importantly reach.

 

Duals and Staffs are just an animation mess though. Not physically balanced for multiplayer play at all.

 

Tacking on more advantages and disadvantages is kinda unneccessary really.

 

Red is the same speed of blue and yellow I think, and reach doesn't really matter. Plus I've discussed the form things a few times before this and I agreed with Razor just a minute ago that I would bring my old post up again :)

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Duals and Staffs are just an animation mess though. Not physically balanced for multiplayer play at all.

They aren't that bad after all the basejka hit detection and hardcoded advantages are pulled out. But you're right, they aren't really designed for saber combat, more like plowing thru droids.

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The differences in damage should be fairly subtle. I see cyan as the one handed counterpart to blue and purple as the one handed counterpart to red. The one-handed counterpart should be slightly faster, but do slightly less damage. The current damage continuum of Red-Purple-Yellow-Blue-Cyan seems pretty good to me.

 

The current animation speeds for the styles seem pretty good overall, although Blue feels a bit slower than it should be.

 

Although it would be nice to get mishap penalties into the mix somehow, I'm honestly pretty happy with the single styles being a fairly linear tradeoff between speed and damage. The one-handed styles could maybe use a tiny extra mishap penalty somewhere.

 

Duals should probably be highly damaging, fairly fast (already true enough), and very mishap-prone.

 

Staff's main benefits seem to take care of themselves fairly well... the lack of extra cost for back-blocking makes some sense, but feels a bit wrong in-game due to a lack of suitable and convincing animations. Come to think of it, some of the existing animations could probably be used/modified for various forms of back-block: high ones could use the overhead handspin, low ones could use either the left or right side handspin moves.

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The differences in damage should be fairly subtle. I see cyan as the one handed counterpart to blue and purple as the one handed counterpart to red. The one-handed counterpart should be slightly faster, but do slightly less damage. The current damage continuum of Red-Purple-Yellow-Blue-Cyan seems pretty good to me.

 

The current animation speeds for the styles seem pretty good overall, although Blue feels a bit slower than it should be.

 

Although it would be nice to get mishap penalties into the mix somehow, I'm honestly pretty happy with the single styles being a fairly linear tradeoff between speed and damage. The one-handed styles could maybe use a tiny extra mishap penalty somewhere.

 

Duals should probably be highly damaging, fairly fast (already true enough), and very mishap-prone.

 

Staff's main benefits seem to take care of themselves fairly well... the lack of extra cost for back-blocking makes some sense, but feels a bit wrong in-game due to a lack of suitable and convincing animations. Come to think of it, some of the existing animations could probably be used/modified for various forms of back-block: high ones could use the overhead handspin, low ones could use either the left or right side handspin moves.

 

Sorry for being bold Sushi but I disagree with everything mainly for two reasons:

 

-People (like me) use new sets of animations that portray the styles differently than "one handed and two handed".

-There are already new blocking animations on their way and I THINK they include back blocking too.

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What about a Force Power tradeoff as well?

 

Two-handed style = less mishap, more power, less speed.

 

One-handed style = more mishap, less power, more speed, Force bonus (push, pull, grip, lightning, etc).

 

I'm not sure if it's possible to code or set things that way, but it was an idea that popped in my head. A one-hand user has a greater chance of having a saber mishap, but with the free hand they have a faster style, and a greater chance of successful force pushing, gripping, pulling, or blasting their opponent away (reasoning... eh, who cares, free-hand or something... quicker to shove).

 

Which brings me to my off-hand comment in saying that I like the Force power system, even if I only have access to 9.0.0b. It's great to have a battle, and then create a mishap and proudly shove a person across the room.

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I think that blue should first take aquas place as the weakest style DP wise, because its swings have no windup (and if used right, it can be like a DP buzzsaw which is another reason it needs to be the weakest). It should have the fastest mishap meter gain but a lower slowbounce threshold and it should be backwards for the heaver styles.

 

Honestly though, I think we should have a menu where you can choose/buy the characteristics of your styles but not allow certain combos or maybe just limit the number of styles you can have if you do overpower a certain style. We might still gear what is available for each style based on its offensive or defensive look to it or on the form name. Sure, this would take some work, but ultimately I think its the best overall option.

 

We could also leave some of the styles a bit more open and if they choose a certain combination, the hud could change from the name Makashi or Aturu or something like that if they choose more acrobatic options.

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I think that blue should first take aquas place as the weakest style DP wise, because its swings have no windup (and if used right, it can be like a DP buzzsaw which is another reason it needs to be the weakest). It should have the fastest mishap meter gain but a lower slowbounce threshold and it should be backwards for the heaver styles.

 

Honestly though, I think we should have a menu where you can choose/buy the characteristics of your styles but not allow certain combos or maybe just limit the number of styles you can have if you do overpower a certain style. We might still gear what is available for each style based on its offensive or defensive look to it or on the form name. Sure, this would take some work, but ultimately I think its the best overall option.

 

We could also leave some of the styles a bit more open and if they choose a certain combination, the hud could change from the name Makashi or Aturu or something like that if they choose more acrobatic options.

 

That's what I posted a few times too, the ability to choose your specialisation for a number of points. You can choose 3 of them by sacrificing force power points from the menu and each enables you to use a certain style with certain buffs. I'm against limiting Acrobatics to one style, I just think that a style that specialises in them (like Ataru indeed) should get a bonus for them.

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We could replace the saber attack/defend skills with the specialization skills.

 

That could work, but it depends on how we do it. Ideally, The skill selection and maybe even saber form selection should have its own seperate menu in order to display all the different selection possibilities. The question is, how do we set that up in a visually proficient way that people can understand. I dont think we could fit the entire selection possibilities in that two slot space unless it contained a link to another menu.

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Something about the new 009I:

 

Too.Many.Saber.Locks.

 

Remove the riposte/parry fake saberlock please. I just played for an hour or so with Revovles and in every fight we had we had saberlocks at least every 10-15 seconds. It deters from the action and to be honest we already have enough visual effects.

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Something about the new 009I:

 

Too.Many.Saber.Locks.

 

Remove the riposte/parry fake saberlock please. I just played for an hour or so with Revovles and in every fight we had we had saberlocks at least every 10-15 seconds. It deters from the action and to be honest we already have enough visual effects.

 

My issue isn't as much having to do with the frequency of the locks as it is about how easy it is to block a slowbounce from attack parries since saberlocks take a second, you have an extra second to realise you have to press the kick block button. I if any of us want to keep the added saberlocks, I might suggest making it so that if you tap (not hold till the end) atack during the saber lock, it breaks out of it and causes the slowbounce from the attack parry. THis would make them faster visually, harder to block the kick, and still allow for superbreaks from an attack parry. We could add that for attackfake saberlocks too, but they already do damage so it should be easier to block the kick.

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My issue isn't as much having to do with the frequency of the locks as it is about how easy it is to block a slowbounce from attack parries since saberlocks take a second, you have an extra second to realise you have to press the kick block button. I if any of us want to keep the added saberlocks, I might suggest making it so that if you tap (not hold till the end) atack during the saber lock, it breaks out of it and causes the slowbounce from the attack parry. THis would make them faster visually, harder to block the kick, and still allow for superbreaks from an attack parry. We could add that for attackfake saberlocks too, but they already do damage so it should be easier to block the kick.

 

I understand and accept your opinion but I have to disagree with making the system even more complicated with adding "timed attacks" and such. It's excellent the way it is now.

 

We just have too many damn saberlocks. Everything causes saberlocks! Power attacks, ripostes, random saberlocks... TOO MANY SABERLOCKS. We only saw saberlocks like three times throughout 6 movies and ingame they just slowdown combat and give it (for noobs) possibilities to take more random directions.

 

Also the system is already too COMPLICATED. I've never seen anyone learn it by himself, for each and everyone of the people I bring in or see playing I need to go over it a million times before they can hold a proper duel. Most of the times they quit and say "going back to MBII/JA+/FM3" before they even get into the deep intricacies. No, just no. We need to gear this thing less towards what WE want and more towards raking new players in!

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So attack parries cause saberlocks too? Is that correct?

 

Perhaps the saberlocks could be initiated only at random times? I like the way they look and work now, but I tend to agree that they happen a bit too often. Also, it wouldn't hurt to slow them down just a tad. It's hard enough to be fast enough to choose between normal break/superbreak playing solo, and I'm afraid it will be nearly impossible to do reliably once lag is factored in.

 

Also... last I checked, there's little point in doing a normal break instead of trying a superbreak every time. The cooldown after a normal break is just as long as the bounce you get if your superbreak fails anyway.

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Maxstate, what's your g_saberlockfactor set to? Right now, we've been playing with no random saberlocks. I probably should make that the default value.

 

As for making things so complicated, you're probably right. I suspect that the whole slow bounce->kick thing is just too hard for many players (including myself). I think we might want to make kicks autoblockable below light mishap and then result only in stuns or knockdowns. IE, no kick block button.

 

As for getting new players, I honestly don't think we're going to be able to draw that many people in. People have already made up their mind about what they play in JKA a long time ago. OJP's system is more of a nitch market sort of thing. Besides, I don't want to have to deal with admin commands and emotes all day anyway. :)

 

Along those lines, I've never seem to have any luck with recruiting additional help...maybe I smell or something. :)

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I think you're right... we probably don't need manual kick blocking anymore. It's always been hard to do and unreliable under laggy conditions. I wouldn't miss it at all. :)

 

As far as new players... I think that the biggest turnoffs right now are:

1) Ignorance. People don't know it exists.

2) Lack of servers. You download the mod and there's nowhere to play. If there is, noone is playing.

3) It's hard to kill people. This is especially true for .09a/b, the version most people are familiar with. Banging your saber against a bot for 5 minutes straight without making any headway is frustrating.

 

I think that a solid release of .10 would help a lot. Releasing it on jk3files and an appropriately timed "media push" would be good too. The key will be getting enough servers and players involved when it's fresh to form a critical mass of players. If there are one or two servers that consistently have players, people will come.

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As for getting new players, I honestly don't think we're going to be able to draw that many people in. People have already made up their mind about what they play in JKA a long time ago. OJP's system is more of a nitch market sort of thing. Besides, I don't want to have to deal with admin commands and emotes all day anyway. :)

 

Along those lines, I've never seem to have any luck with recruiting additional help...maybe I smell or something. :)

Haha? Are you kidding!?

 

We are on our way, we just need more PR and pimpin'. We've already got (if I may say so) the best saber system any JKA mod has to offer. We've got a tweaked and tuned game with no bugs whatsoever, only added material. We've got a hell of a Force system that's extremely pleasant to use. We've got a balanced saber system where nothing I repeat nothing is useless or not worth it. We've got the ability to spawn skilled bots whenever we want, wherever we want. We've got loads of new cool features including a new force power and a reworked (AND HANDY) saberthrow.

 

I could go on like this forever :) The biggest and most important things we have are our community and our dreams and hopes though. Look at what we've achieved! Look at what you and Hockney are still planning to do man!

You're already talking about lightsaber skills.. which if you ARE going to do are going to be a force to be reckoned with among saber systems throughout the JKA modding community.

 

When you guys finish them, what's next ? Gunners ofcourse. 50% or more of the JKA community likes and plays gunners, even me. I love blasting jedi away with a mere pistol. Now imagine if gunplay was bound by balanced rules and not by luck and randomness! We're slowly getting there. Every new build I play I get a feeling of finalization. I don't know if it's just me but everytime Ace releases a new beta build for us it's like a tiny drop falls into an overflowing bucket of water. Dudes and dudettes, we're almost there!

 

Today Revovles actually joined Jask's server and asked ME to come instead of the other way around!

 

To get more players we need the site to be reworked. We need nicer colours and direct download links. Everytime I see a new name connect to the server it ends in a "timed out" error message, I think it may have something to do with them using ancient versions of the game.

 

Does Samuel Dravis have an email or msn account I can contact him at? I have a few ideas that might prove useful.

 

And I agree completely with Sushi! I've been working my ass off to get people to at least try it. I've also gotten us 2 Euro servers of which one can't be found in the damn browser but you can connect to it with an IP. I've sent emails to numerous mod developers and only one has answered me; we have free use of LDJ's maps :D

 

I'm still trying as hard as I can but a little help from the OJP community is very welcome. UDM is done with his exams and is shortly coming back, he can make a trailer. I'm planning on doing a demo again tomorrow with PLasma, revovles and Ripley about the saber system so the noobs can get started easier.

 

This mod is truly great and more people should know this. Jk3files and PCgamemods is the key Ace, but you need a proper description as well.

I was totally flabbergasted when reading what Enhanced was about on the OJP site.. A "superset of Basic" ?. No! It's a bonerific mod that lets you live out your lightsaber swinging dreams with a deep going, fun saber system and allows you and your friends to play SP maps together with the same system.

It's a mod that increases the fun factor in many sides including Force abilities and (soon I hope :D) Lightsaber skills and specialisations!

It's a mod that changes the way Basejka plays and transforms it into a movielike atmosphere where RP'ers, Duelers and just regular FFA'ers can live their dreams and just enjoy the game!

 

Examples:

 

Hud and saber play shot:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/Maxstate/shot0869.jpg

Hud and saberplay part 2:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/Maxstate/shot0872.jpg

Trueview pistol:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/Maxstate/shot0821.jpg

 

More to come.

 

Phew! How was my speech? Any spirits lifted? :D

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Ok, I dont have much time here, but iI hve to say a few things:

1. Our system is not that complicated. In fact, I think its too simple and limited in the amount of attacks that can be used and when. I mean come on, do you guys want the system to be more like a newer fighting game, or NES double drago?!

 

2. Do not get rid of the kick block!!!! Attack parries will be spamed to hell. I know Because if I was a new player, thats exactly what I'd do!!!

 

3. I agree with maxstate as well on the promotion stuff (beautiful speech [wipes tear]), but not on the idea that the saberlocks being escapable by pressing attack is too complicated. This isnt rocket science.

 

THats all the time I have. Sorry if I sound ornery but I'm at work. :p

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JR I believe these guys have made a point about complexity that should be heard. A lot of details have been added to and changed in the saber system this year and it's an awful lot for people to digest, especially with the jargon that's used when discussing it. For all I know everything that happens in the OJP saber system makes perfect sense but no knowledge of Star Wars, traditional swordsmanship or sport fencing is going to prepare someone who wasn't actually involved in making it to understand wtf is superbreaking, slowbounces, attack parries, and all that stuff. Even "mishaps" and "attack fakes" while understandable are laden here with special OJP technical meaning that must be taken into account both to fight and to *enjoy* the fight because without knowledge of the mechanics the duelling seems odd despite looking good.

 

Personally I think the system won't be good until these terms can be locked under the hood with little mention of them needed to teach a new player, and a mildly intelligent and sword savvy player can intuit what the consquences of his moves will be without having to pay attention to what the game mechanics are called. And that isn't going to happen if it gets any more complex. You should try to find ways to prevent it. If a few people say that something ought to be removed then think twice before resisting a chance to trim things back a little.

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