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Jolee knew how?


dewayne26
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Like I've said, I'm sure Jolee would have figured it out by then, as the only other ones apart from him and Freyyyr who tried to access the Star Map was Revan and Malak. Why else do you think Jolee says "Match found, what the--". Think about it.

Now that you reminded me what the computer said, it'd be easy to figure out. But well, just a question: was the "Match Found" thing said at the very beginning? Coz "Match Found" could mean more than "Identity Match Found". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jolee said the computer wouldnt respond to him no matter what, is that so? That means computer has a way to screen the person attempting to access. "Match Found" could also mean "Match of ability/brainwaves pattern/anything that made Revan and Malak qualified to interact with the computer". So, even when Revan attempted in his second run and the computer said "Match Found", they dont necessarily mean he had accessed before.

 

That is to say, when another potent user came along, the computer could just go, "Match Found". So the whole thing may not really suggest to Jolee that he is Revan.

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Now that you reminded me what the computer said, it'd be easy to figure out. But well, just a question: was the "Match Found" thing said at the very beginning? Coz "Match Found" could mean more than "Identity Match Found". Correct me if I'm wrong, but Jolee said the computer wouldnt respond to him no matter what, is that so? That means computer has a way to screen the person attempting to access. "Match Found" could also mean "Match of ability/brainwaves pattern/anything that made Revan and Malak qualified to interact with the computer". So, even when Revan attempted in his second run and the computer said "Match Found", they dont necessarily mean he had accessed before.

 

That is to say, when another potent user came along, the computer could just go, "Match Found". So the whole thing may not really suggest to Jolee that he is Revan.

 

To be honest, I can't remember. I'm hoping someone could show the dialogue so it would tell us exactly what was said. From what I remember, 'match found' is to do with the DNA, it means that the individual has successfully gained access to the Star Map before, and we know that Jolee didn't, that's why he never got 'match found'.

 

I could be wrong, but what I do remember is that the computer on Kashyyyk I interpreted as a big clue that basically told me I was Revan, so whatever was said, it must have been something 'eye brow raising'.

 

It's been a while since I've played KotOR. Oh and, I'll reply to your topic tomorrow, because I'm logging off now. :king1:

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I doubt Jolee ran into Revan at all. If he sensed a lightsider nearby, he'd be pretty stupid to let our favorite hermit live, what with searching for a Star Map and all...

 

I also doubt Jolee would be able to survive a direct confrontation with Revan and Malak. He also doesn't seem like the kind of person who'd let them get away so easily, when it would be a fairly simple matter to get them killed. Organizing a force of Wookiee hunters familiar with the Shadowlands (which Revan and Malak were not), would be able to kill them both.

 

Since neither of them tried to get each other killed (which would have been in their interests), the only explanation is that they never even met.

A band of Wookiees will be able to kill Revan and Malak? Oh Please!!!

 

Being familiar with the land is one thing but that does not means that wookiees will have the edge over such powerful Sith Lords.

 

Revan and Malak were alone on Lehon planet (an unknown world to them) and many Rakatans attacked them, but they got pawned. Same will happen to Wookiees.

 

And Jolee will most definately avoid direct confrontation with these two powerful Sith Lords. He might be an old hermit but he is not an idiot.

 

Revan and Malak passed throught these shadowlands in such a secrecy that Jolee did not had the slightest clue about their existance. Revan is indeed a genius. But this does not means that they had encountered no dangers in their search for Star Map in Shadowlands.

 

After-all Shadowlands was a dangerous place and wookiees avoided living there.

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A band of Wookiees will be able to kill Revan and Malak? Oh Please!!!

 

Who says it would be just a band? I doubt Revan and Malak could defeat several platoons of Wookiees firing at them from all sides. They're not all-powerful Force gods, contrary to most fanboy beliefs. If you blast them, they die. :)

 

Revan and Malak were alone on Lehon planet (an unknown world to them) and many Rakatans attacked them, but they got pawned. Same will happen to Wookiees.

 

Numbers are a different matter there. Is it ever stated how many Rakata attacked them? No, it isn't. Large enough numbers can overwhelm anyone, Sith Lords or not. :)

 

After-all Shadowlands was a dangerous place and wookiees avoided living there.

 

Living there and visiting there are different matters. From what's seen in KotOR and the EU, most Wookiees visit it (and return) at some point in their lives.

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Who says it would be just a band? I doubt Revan and Malak could defeat several platoons of Wookiees firing at them from all sides. They're not all-powerful Force gods, contrary to most fanboy beliefs. If you blast them, they die. :)

Do you know that how much Fire Power they encountered in Mandalorian Wars?

 

Malak was specially known to recklessely charge in to dangerous fights and win.

 

Those wookiees stand no chance. They can't defend against Force Attacks and both Revan and Malak were master swordsmen. They will deflect any blaster fire coming towards them.

 

And why would Wookiees do such a job for Jolee? He did not seem to had any popular gathering of wookiees at his disposal.

 

Numbers are a different matter there. Is it ever stated how many Rakata attacked them? No, it isn't. Large enough numbers can overwhelm anyone, Sith Lords or not. :)

Rakatan Leader said that all the scouting parties he sent towards Revan and Malak were destroyed by them. Which automatically means that many of his warriors died in the attack.

 

Living there and visiting there are different matters. From what's seen in KotOR and the EU, most Wookiees visit it (and return) at some point in their lives.

We go over there for the second time. Don't we?

 

We encounter various problems and troubles including Mandalorians, terentatek, kinraths, beasts and all in the process and yet we survive. Don't we?

 

Same would have happened in Revan's previous visit. And those Sith Lords had no trouble in dealing with these kinds of threats.

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Do you know that how much Fire Power they encountered in Mandalorian Wars?

 

If they were wise, probably not a lot. Contrary to the movies, generals and admirals don't participate in the actual battles and lead charges; they stay in secure, undisclosed locations and deal with mental challanges (managing a war is a lot of work) over physical ones. Malak might not've (since he's portrayed as being as a good a tactician as a trash heap), but I highly doubt he charged into the enemy lines without any backup.

 

Malak was specially known to recklessely charge in to dangerous fights and win.

 

Really now, it's never even stated how many troops he went up against, or if he was getting any help at all. I can accept the idea that he'd risk his life, but that statement is quite vague, and I wouldn't consider it a very good source.

 

Those wookiees stand no chance. They can't defend against Force Attacks and both Revan and Malak were master swordsmen. They will deflect any blaster fire coming towards them.

 

I won't deny they're both stronger than the average Wookiee, because they both obviously were. However, with large enough numbers they could be killed. If Revan and Malak were surrounded by one hundred of them all firing at once, would they really stand a chance? Of course not. They'd be shot dead on the spot.

 

I'll say it again: Revan and Malak are not all-powerful Force gods. If you blast them, they die. :)

 

And why would Wookiees do such a job for Jolee? He did not seem to had any popular gathering of wookiees at his disposal.

 

All the Wookiees seemed to have a great deal of respect for Jolee. If he told them that he was going to kill the two most evil men in the known galaxy, I'd venture that they would help him. Not only as a favor, but I doubt they'd think he was lying about that.

 

Rakatan Leader said that all the scouting parties he sent towards Revan and Malak were destroyed by them. Which automatically means that many of his warriors died in the attack.

 

No, it doesn't. It may have been "all his scouting parties", but for all we know those could have been as many a hundred warriors (unlikely) to merely ten. Not all the Rakata were part of those parties, after all. As no specific numbers were stated, there's very little credence towards that statement.

 

Same would have happened in Revan's previous visit. And those Sith Lords had no trouble in dealing with these kinds of threats.

 

Don't ignore simple tactics. Anyone familiar with the local terrain will have one type of advantage of the people who don't, whether they could survive in it or not. Revan and Malak may be Sith Lords, but they're not exempt from the basic laws of nature. :)

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If they were wise, probably not a lot. Contrary to the movies, generals and admirals don't participate in the actual battles and lead charges; they stay in secure, undisclosed locations and deal with mental challanges (managing a war is a lot of work) over physical ones. Malak might not've (since he's portrayed as being as a good a tactician as a trash heap), but I highly doubt he charged into the enemy lines without any backup.

What makes you say that Revan himself never participated in battles? He was not a common commander or something. He was a powerful Jedi Knight and was not afraid of any one.

 

Revan was very famous for killing Mandalore - The Ultimate by himself in a single battle. What you have to say about this then? (This case clearly shows that Leader of one army actually fought against the Leader of the other army in a personal battle to gain advantage and fame.)

 

And this also shows that Revan actively participated in Combat operations whenever necessary, and not just commanded the Republic Forces.

 

Really now, it's never even stated how many troops he went up against, or if he was getting any help at all. I can accept the idea that he'd risk his life, but that statement is quite vague, and I wouldn't consider it a very good source.

Do you have to be spoon-fed on all things? Malak himself fought in many pitched battles against Mandalorians and he won in many such encounters. Why is this so difficult to understand? And my point is that Fire-power used in wars are much greater then in any other case.

 

Please avoid flame-baiting. --Jae

 

I won't deny they're both stronger than the average Wookiee, because they both obviously were. However, with large enough numbers they could be killed. If Revan and Malak were surrounded by one hundred of them all firing at once, would they really stand a chance? Of course not. They'd be shot dead on the spot.

Much more stronger then an average wookiee is more accurate term. Jedi have precognition and telekinetic abilities. And these things give them massive edge over other individuals.

 

Experienced Jedi can easily deflect blaster fire with Light Sabers. And you are making a one sided scenario in which wookiees will fire and Jedi will not do their best to defeat them, which is pure wrong. Jedi will definately try to over-power their opponents through knowledge of Force, which gives them ultimate edge in any case.

 

And Revan proved on Star Forge, that he is capable enough to fight against heavy odds and prevail.

 

I'll say it again: Revan and Malak are not all-powerful Force gods. If you blast them, they die. :)

No one is saying this but they were very powerful indeed.

 

All the Wookiees seemed to have a great deal of respect for Jolee. If he told them that he was going to kill the two most evil men in the known galaxy, I'd venture that they would help him. Not only as a favor, but I doubt they'd think he was lying about that.

Respect is one thing but their were hardly any devoted wookiee followers of Jolee. We have noted this when we visit shadowlands. Czerka men openly killed wookiees where-ever they wanted to and yet Jolee hardly fought against them. So it is highly unlikely that Jolee can organize such a large gathering to fight for him and that too against very powerful Sith Lords, who will pose a much greater threat to them then Czerka men.

 

Also it is obvious that Revan and Malak would have met many wookiees in their visit to Kashyyyk. And no wookiee offered resistance or if some of them really did then they got pawned.

 

No, it doesn't. It may have been "all his scouting parties", but for all we know those could have been as many a hundred warriors (unlikely) to merely ten. Not all the Rakata were part of those parties, after all. As no specific numbers were stated, there's very little credence towards that statement.

You are just stating your opinion, which is not true. The One said that many of his warriors were killed by Revan and Malak actually. It is time for you to get over this or play KOTOR again to verify the facts yourself.

 

Don't ignore simple tactics. Anyone familiar with the local terrain will have one type of advantage of the people who don't, whether they could survive in it or not. Revan and Malak may be Sith Lords, but they're not exempt from the basic laws of nature. :)

Of-course! Revan and Malak were not exempt from laws of nature but they surely knew how to defend themselves. They had vast experience and many other advantages at their disposal to give them edge against wookiees.

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As much as I enjoyed all of the creative responses to this question, I have a hard time believing the force just told Jolee that the person standing in front of him is the same person who came here many years ago with Malak and accessed the StarMap, someone he may or may not have spied on many, many years ago.

 

Balderdash was close, but in Vader's case, he was feeling the presence of his old master. Someone he once knew very closely.

I don't think Jolee knew Revan this way.

 

However, Jae's mention of a "Force Signature" is worth pondering. If there is such a thing, wouldn't we have heard tell of it earlier?

 

There's also no mention of them meeting previous. If he had met Revan earlier, wouldn't he have sensed his/her destiny like he sensed the destiny of that Sunrider girl? I have a feeling that if he did meet Revan earlier, he'd have remembered.

 

I'm also not sure Jolee would have just figured it was Revan either.

I mean, I like Jolee and sometimes he's funny, but he's not too bright as I see it.

How in the world can a jedi of his magnitude be stuck on an such an easily escapeable planet as Kashyyk? He could have mind-tricked and snuck his way off that planet long ago.

 

No, I'm sorry, This is just one of those things that writers and movie producers call a "plot hole". It's just a detail that got missed.

 

Perhaps in the next installment of this series, they'll give us some insight into this.

 

...but, I doubt it.

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Revan and Malak killed by a wookie squad? I don't think so. In an open battle, the wookies would need hundreds of men to overwhelm Revan and Malak. And Jedi can sense an ambush, especially Jedi of Revan's and Malak's strength. 2 Jedi CAN mow through a squad. Like Yoda and Obi Wan did in episode 3.

And I assume that Revan and Malak were friends at that time, and have fought together in combat many times. If 2 Jedi work together, covering each other, coordinating their moves they are a lot harder to kill, at least it seems that way when you watch/read such "teamfights".

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What makes you say that Revan himself never participated in battles? He was not a common commander or something. He was a powerful Jedi Knight and was not afraid of any one.

 

If you can tell me how Revan could manage a war when he's spending all his time at the front lines, I'd love to hear it. :)

 

One guy manging to kill several platoons of soldiers in one battle won't make much of a difference at all, whereas having good tacticians will. In WW II, for example, Stalin had the largest army on the face of the planet to throw against the Germans. Due to how he'd killed about 90% of the generals and memebers of the High Command, though, he ended up nearly losing the war and only managed to prevail because of Russia's harsh winter and some oversights on the part of the Germans. Generals who stay safely inside war rooms are the ones who truly determine how a war goes - not the soldier who has the highest kill count at the end of a battle.

 

Revan was very famous for killing Mandalore - The Ultimate by himself in a single battle. What you have to say about this then?

 

That Mandalore the Ultimate was a strong warrior, and the strategic decision was to send the most capable Jedi to eliminate him. Assassinating the enemy's leader would deal a huge blow to them.

 

And this also shows that Revan actively participated in Combat operations whenever necessary, and not just commanded the Republic Forces.

 

That's only one example, and the only strategic one. If you can name any other specific instances, I'd love to hear them. :)

 

Why is this so difficult to understand?

 

Because I've seen no specific details of these pitched battles Malak has fought in. For all I know, he could've fought 100 men singlehandedly (in which case he would have lost) or he could've led a charge against 1,000 Mandalorians with 2,000 Republic troops. The reason that statement isn't very useful is because it's completely open to interpretation - if, for instance, a general asks his subordinate what the casulaties in a battle where and he gets told "We lost a lot of men, but so did they!" is that going to be very helpful? Of course not. :)

 

Much more stronger then an average wookiee is more accurate term. Jedi have precognition and telekinetic abilities. And these things give them massive edge over other individuals.

 

Much stronger, a lot stronger, however you'd like to put it. In this case, though, it's 'strong, but not supermen'.

 

Experienced Jedi can easily deflect blaster fire with Light Sabers.

 

A lightsaber looks to be several feet in length, and can be moved around fairly quickly. How can such a weapon deflect 100 blaster bolts that are a foot or so long, coming from all directions? It doesn't matter how quick Revan and Malak's reflexes are, it would by physically impossible for them to deflect all that fire at once.

 

In any case, 100 enemies would be more than sufficient. Obi-Wan and Anakin were nearly killed when they fought 96, (Clone Wars, Volume 7) and only survived because they were able to run away. If 100 couldn't do it, how many people would it take to kill Revan and Malak, then? :)

 

And you are making a one sided scenario in which wookiees will fire and Jedi will not do their best to defeat them,

 

I have stated no such thing. Where was it I stated that they wouldn't try at all? :)

 

And Revan proved on Star Forge, that he is capable enough to fight against heavy odds and prevail.

 

At the maximum, Revan fights ten or so enemies at once with two other allies to help him. So that means each of them would have to kill three people and one extra one in order to prevail.

 

Oh, there are far more than then enemies, but the key difference lies in how they are not all fought at once. That makes a big difference in how the course of a battle can go.

 

Respect is one thing but their were hardly any devoted wookiee followers of Jolee.

 

Followers? They would pray to him at him point. Given how he's been doing them favors for twenty or so years, I think it's quite believable they'd be willing to give one back. :)

 

We have noted this when we visit shadowlands. Czerka men openly killed wookiees where-ever they wanted to and yet Jolee hardly fought against them.

 

Because it wasn't his job to do that. Killing two men is one thing, but singlehandedly stopping a planetwide slaving operation is another, and quite impossible.

 

So it is highly unlikely that Jolee can organize such a large gathering to fight for him and that too against very powerful Sith Lords, who will pose a much greater threat to them then Czerka men.

 

Any halfway decent community would be willing to one favor for a person who's been helping them for twenty years. Since they'd have such overwhelming odds as well, it wouldn't be a great risk to them either.

 

Also it is obvious that Revan and Malak would have met many wookiees in their visit to Kashyyyk. And no wookiee offered resistance or if some of them really did then they got pawned.

 

Source? :)

 

You are just stating your opinion, which is not true.

 

Oh, so The One actually does say the specific number of warriors he sent out to kill Revan? Can you tell me how many? :)

 

It is time for you to get over this or play KOTOR again to verify the facts yourself.

 

I'll spend my spare time as I see fit, thanks. :)

 

Of-course! Revan and Malak were not exempt from laws of nature

 

Good. Knowing and being familiar with the terrain is a huge advantage. Let's take a look at a real life instance: America decided to invade Vietnam. We had more troops, better equiped troops, and better trained troops. As you know, the US lost that war. Why? Other than domestic trouble at home, the Vietnamese had grown up and knew the land they were fighting in. The American troops did not. While they could be wandering through unfamiliar jungles, the Vietnamese people had lived there for centuries. Knowing the terrain is a huge advantage, which I doubt you'll argue against. :)

 

@Vaelastraz, I never said a squad. A squad usually has 8 to 12 men, whereas several platoons, which I did say, has 100 at the minimum.

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I'm also not sure Jolee would have just figured it was Revan either.

I mean, I like Jolee and sometimes he's funny, but he's not too bright as I see it.

How in the world can a jedi of his magnitude be stuck on an such an easily escapeable planet as Kashyyk? He could have mind-tricked and snuck his way off that planet long ago.

 

I don't think Jolee wanted to leave--I think it was a self-imposed exile. He wanted his solitude because he felt so guilty about Nayama, and he needed that time to come to grips with that guilt.

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For all you talking about Wookies vs. Sith, remember that the power of the Force is not only combat, and combat is not only using a lightsaber. While it is true that it would not be physically possible to deflect hundreds of blaster bolts coming from all directions at once, Force or no, Revan was obviously not stupid enough to get into a situation where that would be necessary. He was a tactical genius, as is mentioned several times in the game. His power over the Force was enormous, and he would easily be able to sense hundreds of Wookies coming after him. The Wookies might also know the terrain better than him, but as Revan was a great tactician, I doubt he would fail to scout a dangerous area (and no one can deny that the Shadowlands are dangerous!) before entering it himself. He would use tactics that never forced him to face all 200 or whatever Wookies at once. Rather, he would pick them off one by one or in small groups that are easy to kill. He could also use the Force to spread fear or confusion through the ranks, making his job even easier. If he needed information, he could probably pull it right out of the mind of one of the Wookies. He might even use the Force to compel all his enemies to simply throw themselves off a cliff. Revan killed many Jedi, and a non Force-user would be even more vulnerable to his attacks.

 

This brings me to the second part of my point, which is that the Force is not only combat. Revan was a master of other uses as well. While it would have been Malak's style to go in all guns blazing, killing everything, Revan seems like he would rather slip in and out quietly. He would have no trouble waving his fingers and saying "We aren't the Jedi you're looking for" and that would be that. If he was trapped in the Shadowlands by an army of Wookies, he could make himself invisible, make himself run incredibly fast, or simply rise straight up and back to his ship. Or, if he didn't want to run, he could take control of the Shadowlands beasts and make them attack the Wookies. There's no end to the possibilities the Force offers an adept as powerful as Revan, and he was smart enough to exploit all of them.

 

This brings me to my last point, which is that Jolee probably spied on Revan while he was using the Star Map, but did not try to attack him because he knew he would die. Jolee, being a Jedi (or former Jedi) would have been able to hide himself from the senses of Revan. Also, while Revan was using the Star Map he was no doubt distracted by the object of his years-long quest. These circumstances would have enabled Jolee to sneak close and find out what they were doing.

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I pretty much agree with you. Except that manipulating the minds of 200 dedicated wookiee warriors might be too much for just about any Jedi.

 

But anyway, those who think that the Jedi wouldn't a chance. Don't forget Malak! I don't know why, but Malak seems to have a really bad reputation around here. But Malak was one of the most promising students at his time, second only to Revan. Malak may be rude and brutal (later on) and he lacks a tactical talent, but he is by no means stupid.

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Except that manipulating the minds of 200 dedicated wookiee warriors might be too much for just about any Jedi.

 

True. But Revan might only need to manipulate a few, like the minds of the commanders. Confusing everyone is beyond his power, but again, he would know this, and would make sure to avoid being in a situation where he had no choice but to manipulate the minds of all 200.

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  • 1 month later...

@Devon: re:fighting off large numbers, the Exile and 'Force Storm' would seem to disagree ;)

 

As for Jolee, well, I highly doubt that Vergere was the first to discover "the art of the small"...

 

And such a power would also fit in with Jolee's personality. Furthermore, with so much wildlife in the Shadowlands, finding a single Jedi trying to conceal himself amongst so much 'background noise' as it were, might well be difficult.

 

That said, I find the Architect's theory possibly more logical...

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Well, at the time of the Starmap incident, Revan is not that of a pronounced Sithlord. So there is no reason for Jolee to attack him at the time, he would not know that being Darth Revan. The wookiees would also think of him being just a visitor. They may unwelcome him, but probably not worth hunting partis chargint down the shadowlands for his/their heads. If anythin g the majority of worlds would think of him being somewhat of a jedi when they see them.

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I think you are all forgetting the possiblity of Force signiatures. Kreia after all talks about how she is able to see the footprint of Jedi that walked in the Crystal Cave, and how Jedi in the future can see their footprints in the Cyrstal Cave.

 

Jolee told that the real reason he followed Revan was to lure "the snake away from the town", to save it. Jolee recognized Revan as a snake, maybe the Sith Lord himself, and decided to join with him, to 'lead' him away from Kasshyyk and the other planets, and possibly try to redeem him.

 

I think Jolee was able to even predict his own death (if you go DS). After all, when the snake turned on the kid, the snake asks, "I lured you into a trap." The kid responded that "I thought I led you away from the town..."

 

That story of the kid and the snake explains a lot of why Jolee joined up with Revan...quite possibly as a way to end the Jedi Civil War as peneance for his crime of letting his wife live.

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Force signiatures can be hidden, like by making yourself small. Usually the footprint is not that east to read, unless it is a place strong with the force. But in places like the crystal cave where the whole area is filled with force resonating crystals and what not, it is near impossable to hide your footprint.

 

Thing is, Jolee thinks Revan at the time is somewhat grey like him, and it is easy for him to go one way or another. So he decides to help, well, at least to stop him from going too dark.

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  • 4 years later...
Since Revan likely is more than 30 years old at the time he might have met Revan as a child or teen in the order, and somehow remembered and recognized her?

 

Or he recognized Revan from her last visit to Kashyyk, when she came there with Malak to find the Star Map?

 

Or the classic plot device: the Force told him. :)

 

Overall the time line presented in KotOR is so full of contradictions and inconsistencies it's near-impossible to piece together exactly how things fit together.

 

FYI, Revan is canonically a male, not a female.

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