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PC of KotOR III's force connection?


The Architect
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Well I have to agree with all of what you’ve said there SilentScope001. Good job.

 

Perhaps starting off as a padawan on Coruscant who is on the verge of becoming a Jedi Knight isn’t such a bad idea. I did use it in my old, half-complete K3 fan fic after all. Like you said, you could be sent to destroy the True Sith (and you know you’re the only one who can) because…? That’s where the devs come in.

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well, Luke was sort of trained by Obi-wan, and there was probably a great deal of training outside the scenes in Ep. IV, though i see what you're saying. plus, having no training would make the choices between Light Side and Dark Side seem more feasable, if you see what i mean. anything could happen.

 

When I was thinking of Luke. I was think of him before he meet either Obi-wan or Yoda. Something would happen to PC that would start the PC on their way to becoming a Jedi or Sith.

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I think that the third should have a break in the story. You start as a very young (14-15) person at the beginning of the mandalorian wars. You play through the first few missions and start your path, take part in some of the battles. The game is abruptly halted as your semi-force user is incapacitated, or flees. (I don't know if you should have a partyh at this point yet, maybe a temporary party). You are then shown that your PC has taken refuge on a backwater planet, where he/she trains away from both jedi/sith, and grows in force. When the game picks back up, you now control your character (older, say 25-30). You choose what specialty (jedi weapon master, sith lord, whatever), and a few new force powers. Keep in mind that in the actual game, you would only grow one level during this time. You are found by a member of the new jedi council (or a sith, depending on the jedi class you chose) From there, you continue your adventure.

 

Not the greatest, but something along those lines would explain how your PC jumped in power, and would also give players a taste of both a prequal and a finish to the three games.

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Mister Chief's idea do have some merit. Start off at the Mandalorian Wars after choosing your Starting Class, battle through it, suffer something quite terrible, and then...you are knocked unconsisus. Then, 20 years later, you are rediscovered and sent back to fight a different war, a war against the True Sith. Altough, still, it might not be needed...for we do know the Exile himself fought in the Mandalorain Wars without having to actually fight (unless you count the Hidden Tomb's campagin to be fighting). However, that may be done because the Exile DID has a strong contorl over The Force, and after Malachor V, he lost his connection to the Force (and all his levels).

 

The "Mandalorain War prequel" could be considered the "First planet", and afterwards, you will be unable to go to that planet...most likely due to the fact it is destroyed by your actions. You still keep your levels, but it is now many years later. It would also help new players get aquanited with the story.

 

But there are other ideas too...I trust the developers in coming up with something, and I actually prefer the First Planet to be fighting the True Sith, and not the Mandalorians...Unless the Jedi Padwan accidently stumbles upon a True Sith outpost and is forced to fight against it...:)

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I like the idea of a battle of the Mandalorian Wars being the start of KOTOR III. It reminds me of the beginning of Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade when Indiana is shown when he is young, before going into the main storyline of finding the Holy Grail. This is what I'm going to do in one of my Fics in my Saga.

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Maybe the PC could be a nobody on some ****e-hole planet, who stumbles upon some buried Jedi/Sith war remains early on. Ghosts and Holocrons could teach a lot of the early steps of Jedi-hood. I'd rather, as said above, not be limited to a jedi or sith teacher so learning it yourself makes much more sense to me.

 

Malachor V was destroyed after TSL whatever you chose right? Maybe the force of that scarred surrounding planets with rubble and dark energy. Your planet was one, but more importantly: your planet has become the final resting place of Darth Traya (force ghost stylee) Bastilla has landed on your planet also, following some slim leads on Revan's whereabouts. There's your light/dark teacher and story telling people sorted already. Bastilla came in the Ebon Hawk, which is what led her there in the first place.

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I totally agree with the idea of the PC being a nobody on an unknown outer rim planet. I think it would be one of the best ways for the game to work without feeling like it's retreading. K1's backstory was fresh, K2 was done well enough to be believable and unique, but doing it again for K3 would be a mistake. Also, it makes it much easier to offer the option of starting off as a non-human species, which I think is something that many people want, and would also add a fresh twist to the game. Starting off the person as a force-sensitive that hasn't been trained would also be ideal, although I'm not sure how they'd deal with starting classes, as the PC couldn't just be a Jedi class off the bat. They could tweak the regular starting classes to include force powers, or add in or make up some new classes, as they did for K2.

 

I do think, however, that Mister Chief's idea is fantastic, as it would not only introduce you to your character, fill you in on their back story by being able to play it instead of hear about it, connect you to the past two games, and both introduce and immerse you in the new game all at the same time. I really do hope that K3 will begin with something like this.

 

As for it being hard to believe a nobody could become as powerful as the previous two PC's, I think it's a well-established trope with plenty of precedence in other epics for a relative nobody becoming the hero of the story. I think it's believable that someone who is Force-sensitive, but untrained on how to use that power, could, through both training and the constant strife of the quest, easily become a hero. You've seen it everywhere, from fairy tales, to children's stories, to books, movies, television, games, backs of cereal boxes, ancient epics, you name it. Howevere, I do think this should be toned down somewhat in K2. In K1, you didn't truly start to feel like you were powerful until near the end of the Unknown Planet and on the Star Forge. In K2, you basically were destroying all opposition anywhere from halfway, or even sooner than halfway, into the game. I thought that it got pretty ridiculous, in that sense, and should definitely be a slower progression in K3.

 

In regards to the character RP elements of K1 and 2, one of the best quotes I read on this board (which I can't seem to find, as the search terms are too generic, but I'd love to read that thread again and give credit to the original poster if anyone else knows the one I'm referring to) about the difference between Revan and the Exile's back stories was something like this (again, not an exact quote):

 

"K1's story was, 'This is who you *were*, knowing that, who do you choose to be?', while K2's was 'This is who you *are*, what are you going to do about it?' "

 

I thought that was a fantastic description of the two, and also went a long way to explaining why I never got as into playing the Exile as I did with Revan. With Revan, even though she had a backstory, the amnesia allowed that character to become *yours*. You got to decide who she was, what she did. The amnesia aspect essentially unencumbered you as the player of the character's past, and allowed you to control their present. As the Exile, I felt a constant struggle to not only understand the character's past (which, in my opinion, is given to you in a very poor way. You should not have to spend most of the game trying to figure out the barest facts about your character), but to understand their motivations. As such, it was much more difficult to feel like I had any control or say over the character's present, and also made it very difficult to roleplay, as most of the time, I really wasn't sure what that character thought about anything.

 

Granted, the first time I played the game I didn't know you were supposed to create your own backstory, but I don't think that that concept was made clear enough, or implemented very well, and was especially confusing for those coming from K1.

 

So, for K3 I think starting off with a nobody character with a small backstory would be fine. It's an extremely common beginning for RPG's, and it will continue to be because it is effective. It isn't the character that matters so much as their journey, and who they become while they are on it; and while it is extremely common, it has yet to be used in the KotOR series, and so would be fresh, in a sense, because of that.

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Heh. Cue Zelda "Dah nah da dahhhhhh!" treasure chest sound.

 

I wasn't sure if that was clear in my post, but I would also really prefer that the character start out without any affiliations either. It would make more sense, and give the player more freedom.

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As for it being hard to believe a nobody could become as powerful as the previous two PC's, I think it's a well-established trope with plenty of precedence in other epics for a relative nobody becoming the hero of the story. I think it's believable that someone who is Force-sensitive, but untrained on how to use that power, could, through both training and the constant strife of the quest, easily become a hero. You've seen it everywhere, from fairy tales, to children's stories, to books, movies, television, games, backs of cereal boxes, ancient epics, you name it.

 

Yeah, it's common, but it's...um...hard to believe. Usually, those people have reasons why they are able to do it.

 

I do want the PC to have a Force Connection and be the only one that can destroy the True Sith. Why? Because if he's just some nobody...and he smashed the True Sith, then why not SOMEONE ELSE? You also make the True Sith look very, very stupid...which I do not want to happen.

 

It's quite simple. You are part of a triangle, you got True Sith blood, you created by The Exile, yadda yadda yadda. I just want a reason. Otherwise...you are just like everyone else.

 

In the KOTOR series, they don't say, "You are able to beat them...because you tried and tried and tried." They got reasons for you.

 

Suppose you got your untrained Force Senstive and let HIM face Darth Nihlius, the weak idiot. At least with The Exile, there was a storyline reason that Darth Nihlius can die, because the Exile is a wound. But, your untrained Force Senstive will be able to destroy Darth Nihlius for no reason expect that...um...he can. WTH?! Unbelivable.

 

Please forgive me, but without any sort of McGuffin or reason, you cannot suspend disbelief.

 

But, the rest of your points are okay. I rather have the person be a Jedi Padwan, only because it gives you some connection to the Story, and allow you to view the results of The Exile's actions on the new Jedi Order. But all I really do want is a well- constructed Force Connection, with an fixed background and race from which I can play with (I do NOT want a generic campagin!).

 

I also like discovering more about my character, rather than having it forced to you...and allowing you contorl (Do you regret what you done in the past?). It seemed bad that you are stuck as Revan in K1, but that is just me.

 

(EDIT: Explaination on why I want a fixed background. With a fixed background, the Game can provide missions based off that background and give them more creativity. Without a fixed background, the Game is FORCED to give general missions, without going into detail of the background, because you come up with it. That's lazy game design. We need a fixed story.

 

And to me, a Fixed Storyline does include Aricthect's story of "Grey Jedi trained by Jolee Bindo and Fought against the Sith Empire", as well as Mister Chief "Fighting in Mandalorian Wars". That's a fixed background, that allows the developers to play around and make a better game.)

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I'm not sure if it wasn't clear, but I am by no means saying I don't want a reason. I definitely want a reason. The reason I cited those examples I did is because almost all epics have a reason. Some are much better than others, but the epic as a story wouldn't have existed and be used so often if they weren't believable in some regard. For K3, part the reason is already there. If the PC is force-sensitive, they are different from everybody else in that way, and then over the course of the game becomes much more powerful. It will definitely need to be much more filled out and believable than that, but it's just a place to start. In many other epics, it may seem that at first, the protagonist is just like everyone else, but over the course of the story you see the things that set them apart. Just because they start off as not very powerful doesn't mean they are common. As for the PC, it doesn't mean there shouldn't be a good explanation for why they can go up against the True Sith. I am in no means advocating poor excuses, poor game design or a weak story, and I really hope that isn't the impression people are getting from my post.

 

I'm curious as to why you want a fixed race? I think it's still possible to be able to choose from different races (to an extent, I think having three choices would be sufficient without making things too complicated) and still being able to keep both a fixed background and story. I'd like to hear your reasons.

 

As for fixed backgrounds, I wasn't saying that I didn't want those, either. I definitely want a fixed background and to some extent, a fixed story. There should continue to improve on the freedom of K1 and K2 to choose which path you want to follow. However, I don't want the game to be like Morrowind, where you basically start off in a boat and then go do whatever you want. After a few hours into that game, I wasn't sure what I was supposed to be doing, didn't know anything about any of the characters, story, or where I was supposed to go, and basically stopped playing. The PC should have a back story, but it shouldn't be one that imposes limits on the connection and freedom you feel as a character, as I felt the back story in K2 did. I can see where you're coming from in what you say about feeling burdened by the past in K1, but that's why I thought the plot twist was so effective. It was who you were, but you are more or less a completely different person over the course of the game, and so your back story didn't really impede on the character you play. Every story-based RPG does basically what you want in your explanations for wanting a fixed background. Look at Fallout, look at the Final Fantasy games, look at Zelda. Many of them start off with a very basic storyline, telling you who you are, and then from there, you find out more along the way through various quests. I'm not saying K3 should follow these lines. I want K3 to be as recognizable and unique as a KotOR game should be.

 

With a fixed background, the Game can provide missions based off that background and give them more creativity. Without a fixed background, the Game is FORCED to give general missions, without going into detail of the background, because you come up with it. That's lazy game design. We need a fixed story.

 

This is also part of the problem I had with K2. How many of the sidequests in the game had anything to do with your back story or giving you more insight into your character or the NPCs? Many of them just felt somewhat random, where in K1 the sidequests either gave you more insight into the crew, populated the game world with other interesting people, or were simply things that were enjoyable in their own right.

 

I know this board is fiercely defensive of K2, to the point where I am hesitant to talk about it as it seems that contrary opinions aren't welcome. I don't hate the game. There were plenty of things about it that I really liked, but equally as many if not more things that I didn't, and as such have very mixed feelings about it.

 

Edit: To SilentScope, I reread this and hope that it doesn't sound too curt. I think I was just slightly flustered at the impression that you got from the other post, and so now just wanted to make sure that you didn't get the impression of any hostility from this one, as there is none intended.

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I'm curious as to why you want a fixed race? I think it's still possible to be able to choose from different races (to an extent, I think having three choices would be sufficient without making things too complicated) and still being able to keep both a fixed background and story. I'd like to hear your reasons.

 

It's possible somewhat to play racial tensions into the game. For example, in K1, you saw that Preacher on Taris, talking about how aliens are evil, and trying to sway them to your side. If, say, you were a Tw'ilek...I think that Preacher would try to lynch you rather than peacefully attempt to gain you onto his side.

 

In K2, the Human discrimnation gets reversed. Instead, on Nar Shadda, it's the Humans who have no rights, and the Alien races that have total contorl. Even the Jekk' Jekk' Tarr is off-limits to humans, thanks to those posionus fumes. If, say, you were some other race, you may be treated with more respect from the people in the bar, as well as not having to learn that Force Breath power from Kreia (you're an alien.)

 

Also, would you be able to romance, say, with Handmadien if you are a Twi'lek? No. Handmaiden would not see you as beautiful, but more as a ugly, green-like Alien race who should be bashed in the skull. But, if you are Human, the Handmadien will cosy up to you and see you as a father figure.

 

So the storyline can change somewhat via what race you have (in a subtle method). By keeping it Human, you can allow for these sort of stories to occur (and if you are not human, you may have to put triggers to change it...) It would interere totally with romances. Sure, a Cathar would be able to romance with a Human...but there was no point to it really, and that Cathar is a bit mental. I doubt it can really happen for others...and if it does, it really strains credbiliaty.

 

In other words, it's too complicated really.

 

As for fixed backgrounds, I wasn't saying that I didn't want those, either. I definitely want a fixed background and to some extent, a fixed story. There should continue to improve on the freedom of K1 and K2 to choose which path you want to follow.

 

Okay.

 

If the PC is force-sensitive, they are different from everybody else in that way, and then over the course of the game becomes much more powerful.

 

Then why not any OTHER Force-Senstive? I mean, say replace the Jedi Padwan with Disciple. Or Atton. Or Handmadien. Or...some other random Jedi? You need a reason that you are the ONLY one that can fight this threat...otherwise, you make the True Sith look bad, and not only that, you make others look bad.

 

You agree with me on this point, but I am stressing that being Force-Senstive is not enough differination, since there are thousands that are Force-Senstive.

 

Revan can kill Malak since Revan was a powerful Jedi Knight. Exile can kill Nihlius because The Exile is a wound in the force. The Jedi Padwan can crush the True Sith...because? Let hope the developers can answer that question in a nice manner.

 

The PC should have a back story, but it shouldn't be one that imposes limits on the connection and freedom you feel as a character, as I felt the back story in K2 did. I can see where you're coming from in what you say about feeling burdened by the past in K1, but that's why I thought the plot twist was so effective. It was who you were, but you are more or less a completely different person over the course of the game, and so your back story didn't really impede on the character you play.

 

Was I? No. I was not a different person. I was Revan. Like it or not, I was Revan, and a mindwiped Revan at that. I was not a completely differnet person, I was merely a brainwashed Padwan who is being subtly infuleneced by Revan's past. It did impede on the character I played...no longer was I born on Dellida, no? No longer was I a feared spice smuggler, drafted and pardoned by the Republic. It was all a lie.

 

I dislike it, as you can see. You like it. It's okay. Just note that for every admirer of K1, there is also someone who does not admire it.

 

For K2, the past was fixed, but...different. You fought in the war, and then you left it. Why you fought in the war, why you lost your connection to the Force, why you did this, that all is defined quite well.

 

This is also part of the problem I had with K2. How many of the sidequests in the game had anything to do with your back story or giving you more insight into your character or the NPCs?

 

There was less emphasis on NPCs, yes, but then again, I feel no need to worry about saving Carth's son for the 900th time. Besides, your NPCs are nothing more than disposble canon fooder, and I like that.

 

There was a lot of emphasis on the PC's character, though.

 

1. Atris, The Jedi Master Cutscene that shows you being exiled, the whole Jedi Master Ordeal. You know this, of course. This is the main story.

2. The Mandalorian Clans on Dxun allows you to understand more about what happened at the Battle of Dxun which you fought in. There is a datapad on the Dxun battle.

3. Dantoonie. You can hack into the protocoll droid, and see a hologram of Vrook and Vandar talking about you, and about how you were a "medicore Jedi...with lust for power".

4. Korriban's Hidden Tomb. This is where you not only gain more information on your past, but also get to detail it. This is where you see yourself being recurited by Malak and later fighting on Dxun. You decide what you say in those cirmustances, defining who you are.

5. HK-47's chatting about the Mandalorian Wars, and how Revan lured you to this trap.

 

I know this board is fiercely defensive of K2, to the point where I am hesitant to talk about it as it seems that contrary opinions aren't welcome. I don't hate the game. There were plenty of things about it that I really liked, but equally as many if not more things that I didn't, and as such have very mixed feelings about it.

 

This board is actually not fiercely defensive. I can say there are a lot of people that prefer K1 here, and that K2 supporters are in the minority. I do say however that it is a good game, and that I like it.

---

You know what I am fearing? K3 is going to go and disappoint everyone. Me, and you. I am going to be pemmestic and state that K3 will be a comrpomise between K1 and K2, but because of that, it will make a very, VERY bad blend. K3 will not have the black and white storyline of K1, nor the relativistic story of K2, and it will be considered quite terrible like ROTJ. It will try to please everyone, and end up pleasing no one. It may...stink.

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Hmm... your points are valid for not having multiple races. It would be slightly more complicated, but I guess when I was thinking about it, I didn't see it as needing to be any more complicated than the way it is now, with just slight differences for genders. The developers could address racial issues if they wanted, but I don't think it would be that hard to make it so new races were just more or less having new male/female heads, the way some mods already do. As for romances, I guess I don't find the idea at all an issue, I see no reason why a human couldn't fall in love with a Twi'lek or other mostly-humanoid species. I do realize that not everyone would be comfortable with the idea, though, I just disagree on the aspect of credibility. Maybe it's partly because I grew up with comic books, so the idea of inter-species romance isn't new to me. I mean, the X-men and other superheroes are almost a different race in a sense, and some look very different than your average humans, but they still manage to have plenty of romances, some with regular humans. I dunno.

 

You agree with me on this point, but I am stressing that being Force-Senstive is not enough differination, since there are thousands that are Force-Senstive.

 

I don't think I made this clear enough in the last post, I apologize. I said that being Force-Sensitive was part of the reason, but only a start. I agree, there would still definitely need to be more to it. Let's hope we're both surprised by the ingenuity of the reason.

 

About the differences between the games: I guess we'll agree to disagree on K1 and K2, then. :)

 

There was less emphasis on NPCs, yes, but then again, I feel no need to worry about saving Carth's son for the 900th time. Besides, your NPCs are nothing more than disposble canon fooder, and I like that.

 

This is where our reasons for playing vastly differ. One of the main reasons I play is to get to know the characters and to grow to care about them. It's one of the main things I didn't like about K2, the vast lack of development for most of them. I don't want them to be cannon fodder. I want them to be believable people that you are glad to share a journey with.

 

This board is actually not fiercely defensive. I can say there are a lot of people that prefer K1 here, and that K2 supporters are in the minority. I do say however that it is a good game, and that I like it.

 

I guess I thought that because many of the discussions I've seen where someone shares their slightly, or very, negative opinion on K2 ends up with a few people leaving very short comments saying they agree, and the rest almost being a pile-on of long comments by others refuting the poster's opinion, sometimes getting dangerously close to being insulting. I know many people have differing opinions and preferences to the games, but it seems difficult to talk about K2 without people getting a little frustrated. I had a long, long post I wanted to write after finishing the game, as I had very strong feelings about it, both good and bad. I'd still like to write it sometime, but I guess I'm much more apprehensive to do so now than I was before.

 

You know what I am fearing? K3 is going to go and disappoint everyone. Me, and you. I am going to be pemmestic and state that K3 will be a comrpomise between K1 and K2, but because of that, it will make a very, VERY bad blend. K3 will not have the black and white storyline of K1, nor the relativistic story of K2, and it will be considered quite terrible like ROTJ. It will try to please everyone, and end up pleasing no one. It may...stink.

 

Well then, I hope, for both our sakes, that you are wrong. :)

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Force sensitive? Yes, definitely. How else are you going to "suddenly" become strong in the force and save the galaxy?

 

Different races would be nice to allow diff circumstances, but the developers might restrict you to human or just a few choices. More choices = more content = longer production = costlier production (Also why KOTOR3 should be on dvd instead of 10 install discs).

 

You could start off younger, like in Fable. Maybe some kid as a padawan or Sith apprentice or on a remote world where an Obi-wan prequel helps train you?

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Wow. Thanks for contributing so much to my topic SilentScope001 and bluewhale. I’ve been convinced that a fixed back story with a reason that explains why the PC of KotOR III’s force connection increases rapidly over a short period of time, making him/her powerful enough to take on the big guns of KotOR III (like what we got with Revan and the Exile) is necessary. It seems to be the best working solution.

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I think it might be nice if you could be trained by the Sith instead of Jedi...

 

You would be captured and taken into some sith academy where you would

be forced to learn the ways of the sith and then when you would be deemed

ready you would be send on some assasination mission for example... And at

that time you could then choose to try to turn your back on the sith ways..

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I agree with Prime about the theme of redemption in Star Wars. We’ve seen far too much of it. I don’t want to see any DS’ders be redeemed to the LS in KotOR III. Sure, the effort can be made to redeem someone, but no matter what, I’d like to see all redemption attempts at any character in KotOR III fail, to avoid repetition. If the PC or any of his/her party members go DS, then there’s no turning back. So for that reason only AJL, I don't want to start out as a Sith or be someone who was a former Sith.

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I think that you should actually start as a kid and after a few hours of gameplay skips ahead to you as an adult. You have completed your jedi training etc.

 

I think it should be an anakin kind of person, sum1 with lots of medichlorians, that makes them powerful

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hey guys , new idea, and i know this may suck but hey its 8.45 a.m i just got into work...(im tired!!)

 

n e way, how about your character, as a young 'un, your a force sensitive (quite strong-not Uber powerful though) born on a planet that isnt too fond of the force (there gotta be one somewhere, possibly rim worlds?) and is considered akin to witch craft.

thier home was then destroyed in the mandalorion wars (or another wars/battles of some sort) and the PC was captured by a faction of some sort (sith mandalorian etc) and enslaved. and then using you force powers that you have worked on whilst you were a kid, and whilst in slavery planning your escape, you get away and make your way to somewhere where you get picked up by the jedi (or sith) and - someone continue story from there as thats too much for me, i just wanted to put the Secret power idea in. (see below)

 

and why were the slavers unaware of you abilities? why werent you killed on your own world?

heres where the 'special power/reason' comes in, due to your natural kinship with the force and the hatred of it on your planet you were forced to hide you powers and affinity to the force to avoid persecution, this has given you the ablility.....wait for it...... to cloak your force abilities from others!!!

 

start trumpets -DaDA!! cue parade and other such stuff to mock my stupidity as im sure someone is gonna point out this cant be done for some reason.

 

but seriously, would be cool, PC wouldnt be Uber powerful, just as most people want, he has a special power in that he cant be detected by force users (and Exile/Neo-Nihilus), hence why he'd be good, nihilus would see the PC coming and using his force powers (as you slaughter your way through his minions) but when you confront him he senses NOTHING, now would he seriously DARE try to force feed him, knowing what Exile did to the original nihilus? then you would end up fighting him straight. and the True Sith would have major problems finding this guy,

 

so? comment, queries, suggestions?

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