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The Problem of Hell (Specifcally, What to Do There)


SilentScope001

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I read everything though i joke that I read the bible so as the old sage said 'I would know my enemy' since as a pagan, I keep having the more irritable form of Christian accusing me of satanism or devil worship.

I get that too and I am a Christian. Though I think they deem me to be the heretical kind. I'm glad you're not around to hear my family have a go at me. When I tried to explain about human sacrifice, my grandpa when Bible thumpin at me but he listened.

 

It really bugs them when you quote form the bible back at them supporting your argument when they give you a ration of crap.

Of course. We had a radical on campus awhile back and he was spouting Bible verse at us about the evils that plague us but mostly attacking the Muslims and the like. He spoke quite a bit on vices like smoking and drinking and yet a Muslim student was refuting his argument with Bible verses. Never ceases to amaze me.

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Ah, always nice to know where my religious beliefs come from. Thanks! :D

 

I wasn't suggesting that, SS. What I meant was that Americans adore the conspiracy theory. We love it so much we had to incorporate it into the Nurnberg Trials. Give a group of Americans any situation, whether it is Pearl Harbor, or flouridation, and you have one.

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Mr. Atheist here. Don't worry, I'm not here to attack religious people, religion, God or anything else that's related.

Even though I'm an atheist I still have a simple advice for you - there is an old proverb: ''A good deed is its own reward''. Let me clarify: Under the assumption that there is a god and that there is a heaven and hell, I think that you should not be good or do good things because you want to go to heaven. It won't get you into heaven for one simple reason - the motives behind your deeds were selfish. Be a good person and do good things because it's the right thing to do, not because it might get you upstairs in the afterlife.

If there is a hell and you get there, I don't think you'll have a choice of activities. Hell is a punishment and, IMO, it basically means that you experience all kinds of pain and torture, or maybe relive your worst fear for all eternity.

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Mr. Atheist here. Don't worry, I'm not here to attack religious people, religion, God or anything else that's related.

Even though I'm an atheist I still have a simple advice for you - there is an old proverb: ''A good deed is its own reward''. Let me clarify: Under the assumption that there is a god and that there is a heaven and hell, I think that you should not be good or do good things because you want to go to heaven. It won't get you into heaven for one simple reason - the motives behind your deeds were selfish. Be a good person and do good things because it's the right thing to do, not because it might get you upstairs in the afterlife.

If there is a hell and you get there, I don't think you'll have a choice of activities. Hell is a punishment and, IMO, it basically means that you experience all kinds of pain and torture, or maybe relive your worst fear for all eternity.

 

 

In feet of clay, Terry Pratchett commented on Athiests by saying they are really the most religious of people. They spend every waking moment thinking of the gods, list every work, and study more so they can debunk them more efficiently

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When I wrote Mirror of My love, I referenced the comments made by Mark Twain (Which I read in the works of Andrew Greely, an author and Catholic priest. It is in the book Mysterious Stranger and at the end the stranger who we have found is Satan says,

 

‘A god who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice and invented hell--mouths mercy and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules, and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites this poor, abused slave to worship him!’

 

Since my character was a Catholic, (he)her reply was that it was a fallacy caused by man laying the blame for every stupid thing they do on god.

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In feet of clay, Terry Pratchett commented on Athiests by saying they are really the most religious of people. They spend every waking moment thinking of the gods, list every work, and study more so they can debunk them more efficiently

Yes, that is true for some funny reason. I am atheist and my family owns a golden covered bible as well as the koran, but that's not the important thing right now.

 

If we say that Heaven and Hell exist, then let me ask you this: Didn't Jesus die for the sins of all men? So, if we suppose that all of this is real, than why are people still afraid of going to Hell. If I understand this right, there should not have been a single person, that went to Hell after Jesus' death.

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Yes, that is true for some funny reason. I am atheist and my family owns a golden covered bible as well as the koran, but that's not the important thing right now.

 

If we say that Heaven and Hell exist, then let me ask you this: Didn't Jesus die for the sins of all men? So, if we suppose that all of this is real, than why are people still afraid of going to Hell. If I understand this right, there should not have been a single person, that went to Hell after Jesus' death.

 

However by the same token there are those who claim that except for the prophets, no one who died before Jesus was has gone to heaven because they weren't there to hear the 'good news'.

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If we say that Heaven and Hell exist, then let me ask you this: Didn't Jesus die for the sins of all men? So, if we suppose that all of this is real, than why are people still afraid of going to Hell. If I understand this right, there should not have been a single person, that went to Hell after Jesus' death.

 

The reason that some didn't go to heaven is because they didn't believe Jesus died on the cross; or if they did, they didn't believe he was raised from the dead; or if they did, they at least didn't believe he was God incarnate...

 

Interestingly, the New Testament notes that the Teachers of the Law and the Romans actually knew Jesus had come back from the dead, but covered it up by telling the public his disciples stole the body--one reason why Jesus' resurrection isn't exactly in the history texts.

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However by the same token there are those who claim that except for the prophets, no one who died before Jesus was has gone to heaven because they weren't there to hear the 'good news'.

 

We look back in time at Christ's sacrifice, those who lived prior to Christ looked forward to his sacrifice, if that makes any sense. There's also the verse that says those who never hear the Good News can see God in creation and it's counted as belief--I'll have to look up the actual reference later.

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We look back in time at Christ's sacrifice, those who lived prior to Christ looked forward to his sacrifice, if that makes any sense. There's also the verse that says those who never hear the Good News can see God in creation and it's counted as belief--I'll have to look up the actual reference later.

 

We were kind of having this debate last night at Bible Study Home group. Basically the Christian perspective is you need Jesus to get to heaven and you need to believe in him. And Jae is right that the Bible says those born before Jesus looked towards his sacrifice. Indeed the sacrificing of bulls by the Isrealites was merely a visual representation to help the people understand how serious sin is. Interesting question; where do people go if they never had the chance to hear about Jesus. There is a problem that if they do go to heaven then Jesus sacrifice on the cross wasnt needed as they would be judged on their lives - and the loving God I know would never kill him Son unless he absolutly had to. The Vicar at my church arguesthat if people had no Chance of knowing Jesus they would only go to heaven if they realised that they would need an intermediary (Jesus) to get them there as they were stuffed.

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The reason that some didn't go to heaven is because they didn't believe Jesus died on the cross; or if they did, they didn't believe he was raised from the dead; or if they did, they at least didn't believe he was God incarnate...

 

Interestingly, the New Testament notes that the Teachers of the Law and the Romans actually knew Jesus had come back from the dead, but covered it up by telling the public his disciples stole the body--one reason why Jesus' resurrection isn't exactly in the history texts.

 

Joe, the Jewish Faith was restricted to an area less than 400 miles square for most of it's history. In fact until the diapsora of 70AD, it was not known to the Celts except by stories. The writings that make up the bible were not in common knowledge in Europe until the 2nd century AD, the Christians did not become the controlling religion of the Roman empire until the 4th century, they didn't publish the bible in a form the common man could touch until the 13th.

 

To condemn over 99 percent of mankind for not being Jewish before 70 AD is Hubris, yet except for Paul's admonitions, the new Christians required a convert to be circumcised and become a Jew. To condemn over 90 percent if the second coming had happened in 100AD (Which some Christians did think would occur) was ridiculous. The precentage drops still over that time but by the time Guttenberg printed that first volume it still had dropped to only about 80 percent.

 

It didn't fall to less than 30 percent until the advent of radio communication.

 

How can a God be called fair and just, all knowing and all seeing if he's condemned the whole of mankind because they do not believe in one religon that grew in only one place?

 

In this case I have to agree with Robert Anson Heinlien. In Stranger in a Strange Land a character here's comments about 'going to hell because' and commented that what was probably going to happen, was that the great god Mumbo JUmbo, who never had more that a hundred worshipers would be the one true god, and everyone else goes to hell.

 

The problem with hell itself, it is a concept which is created, fostered and forced down the throats of 60 percent of the population of the planet by the small percentage that believes it and all of us must dance to your tune or else.

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I wasn't suggesting that, SS. What I meant was that Americans adore the conspiracy theory. We love it so much we had to incorporate it into the Nurnberg Trials. Give a group of Americans any situation, whether it is Pearl Harbor, or flouridation, and you have one.

 

Ah, my bad. Still, thanks.

 

How can a God be called fair and just, all knowing and all seeing if he's condemned the whole of mankind because they do not believe in one religon that grew in only one place?

 

Isn't that merely a proof that said God is not actually fair and just, not that God does not exist?

 

I do believe God is just, but that because, according to my Holy Book, God says he's just, which is why he sent messengers to create a ton of world religions, all over the world, to worship God. Of course, each of these world religions flopped or ended up not worshipping God...but you can't fault God for trying to save people.

 

My Holy Book also says God exist, and well, if God ends up actually not existing, then he cannot be just. ;) But, even if God exist, you make a good argument in stating that said God may not indeed be just and fair. An evil or an amoral God, if you will...

 

This is the reason why I believe ethical relativism will remain, no matter what happens. If there is no God, then it is really up to the human beings to create what they believe is fact and what is fiction. If there is a God, it is still up to the human beings to create what they believe to be good and what is bad. If God claim one is evil for not worshipping him, that person can respond back in stating that God is evil, or at least, amoral, by using the same valid argument you made.

 

And this is also the reason why I fear Hell, due to the fact that it is pretty unlikely that I will go to Heaven, what with all the different creeds stating they are all the true truth, and that all the other creeds are one-way tickets to Hell. :)

 

Even though I'm an atheist I still have a simple advice for you - there is an old proverb: ''A good deed is its own reward''.

 

But...er...I don't know what is an objective definition good and evil. I'm an ethical relativist, and I believe that good and evil are in fact relative, depending on what other people believe. One person's sin is another person's good deed after all.

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But...er...I don't know what is an objective definition good and evil. I'm an ethical relativist, and I believe that good and evil are in fact relative, depending on what other people believe. One person's sin is another person's good deed after all.

Yes, this is a huge problem with us. As far as I know humans have based the definition of good and evil upon morality. If something is not morally acceptable, it can be branded as evil. For example, murder, stealing, lying - all these things are immoral, unacceptable behavior and thus in religion they are evil (these specific examples are major sins in Christianity, right?).

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Yes, this is a huge problem with us. As far as I know humans have based the definition of good and evil upon morality. If something is not morally acceptable, it can be branded as evil. For example, murder, stealing, lying - all these things are immoral, unacceptable behavior and thus in religion they are evil (these specific examples are major sins in Christianity, right?).

 

(Catholicism is slighhtly different here as they have the 7 deadly sins, and I don't know about the Orthodox Church) But strictly speaking in the Bible all sins in they eyes of God are equal, so me lying would be no different to someone shooting someone. As biblically the definition of Sin is rebellion against God. This is something alot of non-Christians can never understand, but it basically is because a perfect God cannot tolerate any sin, so Jesus was needed to take the punishment we all should recieve for our sins.

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Are you speaking for the radicals of each group. I know that I don't impose my beliefs on people. Just two days ago I became fascinated with the Shoshone belief system and wanted to learn more. Part of the reason why my family questions my religious tendencies.

 

JM12, The problem is that the reasons the original pagans hated first the Jews then the Christians was the 'oh we are right and you are wrong' attitude. I'm not saying shoving it in their faces, but their common attitude, including their 'more in sorrow than in anger' dealings with others around them.

 

Nero accused the Christians of starting the fire in Rome because they were some little wierd off the wall sect that no one would support. Sort of like blaming the Amish for 911

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I asked a question earlier, and only JM12 even considered it, it seems. This may count as double posting, but if you look at the date it is now over a week later.

 

As much as the Christian sects rant about a burning hell, here is a little info on that:

 

While hell is mentioned over 3,000 times, all of those references are to the grave (Sheol in Aramaic) or Hades (The greek version).

 

In the grave, you do nothing. The bible says do not put your faith in princes for they go to hell (Into the grave) and are no more.

 

Hades, for those who do not know the Greek Legends is a dark place, and all of the souls of those before are there. However to get there you must cross the river Lethe. Even a sip or drink from this river removes all memory. So how can you be tormented for eternmity if you don't even know why you are being punished?

 

The Christians took the nine tiered hell Idea that the Romans created, with the Elysian fields (A Christian version of Heaven) on one end, and Tartarus (The Christian hell) on the other. Once people had forgotten where they got the concept, they cut out the middle seven.

 

All right, we have heaven and hell demarcated. So where does the burning hell come from?

 

From three statements in the New testament. Just three. But if you take them as (Pardon the pun) gospel, you run right into a solid wall of problems.

 

They are, the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, the example of the valley of Gehenna, and John's vision on Patmos.

 

But any minister will tell you that a Parable is like Aesop's tales. They are only examples to be used to make the moral more acceptable. So that isn't true.

 

When Jesus used Gehnna as an example, everyone forgets to mention what Gehenna was. It was the major garbage dump of the city of Jerusalem, and all of the trash went there. The 1st Century (on either side of the line) people didn't know anything of germ theory or how waste can cause disease, but they did know that if it just sat there people got sick and died. So men would spread burning camphor every day and keep it ablaze so that the trash would not cause plagues. They also did not know anything of the life cycle of the common fly which spends it's childhood as maggots, so they saw swarms of 'worms' and thousands of flies. After all while the Babylonians used fire in torture (The bull) and the Phillistines used it in the worship of Baal, the Jews used it for only one thing, to destroy something utterly. It was and still is the one thing you can guarantee will end any plague if used fast enough.

 

Since they also threw the carcasses of dead animals and the bodies of criminals in there, it worked.

 

What he was saying is 'if you refuse to accept, you're garbage, and god will treat you like garbage'.

 

The last is in Revelations as I said but after everyone who didn't listen on the 1000 year turn around are thrown into the burning pit, they then throw hell and death into it. John himself might have foretold the 'burning hell' controversy because the last line is 'This requires discernment. The burning pit is the second death'.

 

So let'

s leave the burning hells in the televangelist's minds, k?

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The last is in Revelations as I said but after everyone who didn't listen on the 1000 year turn around are thrown into the burning pit, they then throw hell and death into it. John himself might have foretold the 'burning hell' controversy because the last line is 'This requires discernment. The burning pit is the second death'.

This was what I remembered when I responded to your question mach. From my understanding, this is one of the references that the TV evangelists bombard us with when they speak of hell.

At the church I attend since I have to play good little Catholic daughter, we have two readings and a gospel piece. The first reading is from the old testament while the second is from the new testament and usually a letter from one of the apostles. What fascinated me was the fact that mentionings of being saved and hell are never mentioned at all in the priests' sermons. I say this this accentuate that even western religion doesn't go into this concept of heaven and hell as much.

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Totenkpf, the problem with the Christian version of hell is that it was lifted from two sources, the Roman religion where it is run by Dis, and their version of heaven is called 'Elysian Fields' and their version of hell is Tartarus. The other place was the taoists, but it should be noted that you can end the torment at any times by reincarnationn which the Christians negirate.

 

Saying their hell is the only one is claiming the music for the Star Spangled Banner is American, when it was based on an english song whose title beyond the word Anachreon escapes me.

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