Should Revan be tried/executed by the Republic?

[SilentScope001]

well, what is currently under debate is whether war was actually the best option. i just wonder if Revan could've done anything else, this bloodshed seems unnecesary, which is why i'm going for execution. i mean, could Revan have just helped the republic instead? maybe rally forces? because i think what you are saying was what Revan's objective was is to unite the republic against the sith threat. there are possibly other ways of rallying the republic without killing it. if so, then Revan has all that blood on her hands because the war was an unnecesary move.

 

There are many different ways Revan could have done his deed. I personally saw what Revan did as a really, really stupid plan. ED disagrees, but TA (the other TA, The Archiet), agrees with me on this point, somewhat...if it was true that Revan wanted to take over the galaxy.

 

At best, Revan would have turned the galaxy into a Sith Empire and therefore save it from the "True Sith". Take out the themes of redemeption, and doing the right thing. Yeah, destroy the very things that make Star Wars what it is. Thank you, Revan.

 

At worst, Revan would basically be following in the footsteps of Mandalore...attacking the Republic, serveing as a distraction and destroying all those planets. Plus, by getting people to join the Dark Side, he allows for a huge army that can easily be seduced to the True Sith's side.

 

Even then, if Revan still wanted to take over the galaxy...there were better methods. Revan could have done a Military Coup, could have Ran for Chancellor, could have framed the Jedi Order for treason and start up "Code 66", could have taken up Palpatine's role. Revan got the popularity, and he lost it by invading the Republic...he should have used that popularity to take over the Republic...Nope. Not even that.

 

There is always that nagging point that Revan and his armed forces could have just invaded True Sith space himself, take the war to the 'bad guys', blow them up, and win. It worked before in previous Star Wars stories, and not only that, but the endless conquest of True Sith worlds would have made Revan's army grow very powerful and strong, allowing him to conquer even more worlds.

 

And, even then, what about the Rakatans? Revan stormed the world, saw the Rakatans' great and mighty empire. What happened to them? The Rakatan Empire collasped. It was the biggest Empire ever, but it still collasped. Revan's plan, to create a Sith Empire, would have failed in the long run anyway, as all empires, and all republics for that matter, are doomed to collaspe.

[True_Avery]

This is where I see things differently. The dark side corrupts. You say that did not happen for Revan, and maybe not to a notable extent, but it also twists and shapes your perceptions, and I think that's where Revan made his mistake. Like Ulic, he thought he could wield the dark side like a weapon, only you can't - the dark side is servant to no one. You can control it only for so long before it controls you.

Ah, but the Star Forge is a small bit of evidence against that theory, to a degree.

 

It is true, the Dark Side corrupts. I will not disagree at all that it made Revan more bloodthirsty, savage, and insane than she had ever been as a Jedi or a Gray. She sent the order for the Mass Shadow Generator... she was unstable by the war's end, possibly more than the Mandalorian's she was fighting.

But, and I'm basing this on my theory of defending against the True Sith, she did not seek ultimate power and chaos like all others before her. Malak, and the rest of Revan's followers all "Fell" in my form of the definition. They went bloodthirsty and mad, consumed by a lust for power and glory. Revan still wanted control, wanted order, and wanted the Republic in her hands to mold into something that could stabalize.

 

The Star Forge is, in my opinion, evidence against a complete fall to the Dark Side, as some people would like to believe. I don't have the quotes on me, but the final battle with Malak reveals that Revan ignored the massive amount of power that it could have given her. All Revan saw was a Factory. A power crazied, fallen Dark Lord like Malak embraced it the second he could. I think Revan still never truly wanted the Dark Side, just as she never really wanted the Light. Malachor V forced it fully upon her, wether she gained control of it or it controlled her. I believe she still had her sanity and control to enough of a degree to see that the Star Forge was a corruption that could be avoided, a power that would destroy her just as it did the Rakata Infinite Empire. If she was truly being controled, truly insane with power, than she would of kept trying to grow in power like all Sith do.

 

As for Dark Side being all controlling... it is still a very hard thing to debate, as there is little evidence on my side and oodles on everybody elses. I try not to see the Dark Side as being all consuming, evil, destructive, and controling but there is so much evidence thoughout the series that Light and Dark really are seen as more of Good and Evil. I personally cannot stand "Good and Evil" situations as I believe it is relative, but the Star Wars universe has pretty much made the Force exactly into that, and any beings who do the smart thing and try and find a middle ground or see the Force as one power always get thrown to the Light or Dark side at some point to which they stay. If the Dark Side eventually has ultimate power over you, then the Light Side should as well, but it doesn't... just biased against the Dark Side... destined to turn anybody to touches it corrupt and evil.

 

Oh well, I will leave Dark/Light side harmony to Fanon and my imagination, as the basis seems to be made in stone. The Force exists in both "Light and Dark", yet the Dark and Light never consume eachother, but really only the Dark ever manifests itself in a way to be identified. The "Light" is more of a belief, the "Dark" seems to have everything the Light has and more... except control, and the control seems to be based on the person. Grays have been known to use both sides of the Force, Dark Side Jedi and Sith have been seen to redeem themselves to the Light Side in SECONDS and vice versa, yet nobody can seem to find a harmony in both. That depresses me.

 

But this is off topic, sorry about that.

 

well, what is currently under debate is whether war was actually the best option. i just wonder if Revan could've done anything else, this bloodshed seems unnecesary, which is why i'm going for execution. i mean, could Revan have just helped the republic instead? maybe rally forces? because i think what you are saying was what Revan's objective was is to unite the republic against the sith threat. there are possibly other ways of rallying the republic without killing it. if so, then Revan has all that blood on her hands because the war was an unnecesary move.

At best, Revan would have turned the galaxy into a Sith Empire and therefore save it from the "True Sith". Take out the themes of redemeption, and doing the right thing. Yeah, destroy the very things that make Star Wars what it is. Thank you, Revan.

 

At worst, Revan would basically be following in the footsteps of Mandalore...attacking the Republic, serveing as a distraction and destroying all those planets. Plus, by getting people to join the Dark Side, he allows for a huge army that can easily be seduced to the True Sith's side.

Ya know, I see both of your points but I still have the nagging feeling something doesn't seem right about the whole Sith situation.

 

I can see the point you are trying to make, but Revan still held all military facilities in check when she went to all those planets to take over. If she wanted to follow te steps of Mandalore, she would have decimated everything like Malak did, but she kept key area's of survive open to the Republic to make sure it could be stable in the end. HK-47 was made to kill off Senator that were corrupting or desabalizing the Republic... a genius move I must say.

 

But the entire war, conflict, battle was all based on the thought that Revan did not think she had the time to wait for years of rank building to make it to the top. She did not have a clone army to take over the republic. Heh, clone army. Her plan may seem stupid to you, but it is genius to me as it is close to the same plan Palpatine had, just MUCH more straight forward. Palp took over the Republic, had an unstoppable army, kept the key places in the Republic in order, got rid of those who would destablize it, ect. Sounds familiar to me. The only thing that stopped Revan from gaining that much control was lack of time and Malak, who ruined everything due to his power lust.

 

If she thought "Hey, I have years and years to prepare for this, time to get my name out there and get control the legit way", she would most likely have done it the legit way. But I still understand it in the way she thought she had little time at all. The Mandalorians attacked the Republic, she believed, to soften it up for the taking by the influence of the Sith... in which they did. They decimated most of the Republic's military and Revan pretty much destroyed the rest at Malachor V with the Shadow Generator. She saw the Republic as very weak and very open, so she planned to do in a few years what would take maybe 50 years normally: Take over, bring stability through elimination, have a massive army, build up the old army, and then hope for the best. We also do not know what exactly the True Sith are, so maybe going directly into unknown space with a massive army was not the way to fight them. Hell, Palp himself could make a wormhole with the force to eat an entire fleet alive... who is to say these Sith are not just as powerful.

 

But even after I try and see that this is my opinion of the matter, it still leaves the questions:

 

Did Revan really plan on making a full Sith empire? This is a question I have argued about with myself for a bit. It is true that Revan was messed up some by the Dark Side from Malachor, but everybody else? I know the evidence points to Jedi turning at Malachor V at the final battle, but it only really states the Jedi and that is understandable from the incredible amount of death that happened there. Revan eventually found the Star Forge, an object of corruption and the Dark Side, yet did not embrace it. Malak sure did though. It is explained that "Sith Teachings slowly went through the ranks", but was it because of Revan, or did the Dark Side taint just make everybody else extremely interested? But if Revan did not, then why the title as "Dark Lord of the Sith"? What could Revan possily gain from from a title like that when some believe that Revan did it to stop True Sith?

 

All my theories for those questions are so Fanon that I refuse to say them outside a Fanfic. But, those questions are what make us so eager to see KOTOR III

 

EDIT: Ugh, multitasking sucks. Sorry about the bad spelling and grammar in this post.

[Emperor Devon]

and why exactly, can Revan not help defend these planets?

 

So you agree Revan should be able to defend those planets to the best of his ability?

 

refer to the analogy.

 

Your analogy about soldiers and rations in a house cannot be applied to those arguments, and would probably just end in me re-stating what I already said about it. As I spent a while typing those points I'd appreciate you responding to them.

 

Or we could drop the resources topic, whatever... I've already explained to you how armies need constant sources of food to fight, and I doubt repeating myself again will change your mind. Most of our debate now revolves around that.

 

cite this.

 

"Star Wars, Incredible Cross-Sections."

[EnIgmA_XX]

The Star Forge is, in my opinion, evidence against a complete fall to the Dark Side, as some people would like to believe. I don't have the quotes on me, but the final battle with Malak reveals that Revan ignored the massive amount of power that it could have given her. All Revan saw was a Factory. A power crazied, fallen Dark Lord like Malak embraced it the second he could. I think Revan still never truly wanted the Dark Side, just as she never really wanted the Light. Malachor V forced it fully upon her, wether she gained control of it or it controlled her. I believe she still had her sanity and control to enough of a degree to see that the Star Forge was a corruption that could be avoided, a power that would destroy her just as it did the Rakata Infinite Empire. If she was truly being controled, truly insane with power, than she would of kept trying to grow in power like all Sith do.

 

again, interesting IMO on this one, but i'll object. you know when you play KOTOR and you're at the final battle with Malak? he explains this function of the star forge, right? yeah, the way Malak talks to Revan, it seems very much that he's calling Revan a fool for not seeing all of the star forge's power. i don't think Revan didn't use that aspect of the star forge because he/she wasn't corrupted enough, TA, i think it was simply because Revan overlooked it.

 

If the Dark Side eventually has ultimate power over you, then the Light Side should as well, but it doesn't... just biased against the Dark Side... destined to turn anybody to touches it corrupt and evil.

 

yeah i know. but that's kinda how it is in real life, right? it's harder to be good than bad, that's just how it is.

 

So you agree Revan should be able to defend those planets to the best of his ability?

 

yes. and that includes not killing the defenders of those planets. how are they hindering Revan from defending the planet?

 

Your analogy about soldiers and rations in a house

 

ahem? we're talking about warcraft 3 now, that was my most recent analogy. but yes, they are kinda parallel.

 

cannot be applied to those arguments

 

and why exactly, is that the case? are they not very similar? we're talking about resources, ED. they're almost the exact same thing. tell me why i can't use this.

 

and would probably just end in me re-stating what I already said about it. As I spent a while typing those points I'd appreciate you responding to them.

 

actually, point. i just found one, so i'll re-reply to that.

 

Your house analogy reduces the true magnitude of what Revan's request would be. A fleet the size of his would need billions upon billions of tons of fuel, food and other resources just to stay in operation, let alone fight a war. That is nothing like a few packages of rations you can buy without a second the next day - the resources wars consume can amount to trillions of dollars (or in this case, credits) and could drastically affect the economies of the countries involved for decades to come. Revan would have to do more than just as politely.

 

ED, here is when one very important point when considering analogies comes in: scale.

 

okay, so it's a few rations. compared to billions of tons of fuel, it's nothing. but do you know where that fuel comes from ED? it comes from factories. it comes from thousands and thousands of factories on planets all over the galaxy. now, where do the rations come from? uh, like the dead bodies of soldiers and stuff. you see, ED, there are a lot more resources involved with the fuel, but there are also higher production rates, and more people to supply. i'll tell you, that little stack of rations is worth as much to those 10 soldiers as a million pounds of rations is to an army. so despite your claims otherwise, it is the same thing, ED.

 

Or we could drop the resources topic, whatever... I've already explained to you how armies need constant sources of food to fight, and I doubt repeating myself again will change your mind. Most of our debate now revolves around that.

 

and i, too, have explained how my analogies are in fact relevant, how there are other options other than war, and how Revan could've asked the republic for funds rather than mercilessly slaughter them for it. you may think my analogies don't count because the scale is too small, but they're a lot more similar than you're willing to admit, ED.

[JediAthos]

I haven't read the whole thread...I'm too lazy, but I will contribute my thoughts anyway

 

I think that hypothetically there would be a good case to put Revan on trial, however I think that from what I've seen of the SW Universe the only way a Jedi would be put on trial would be by other Jedi.

 

That said, I don't know that they would convict Revan assuming a light side ending to the game. True, he/she did some terrible things, but on the other hand also stopped Malak in the end.

 

I don't know...it's an interesting hypothetical situation though

[SilentScope001]

again, interesting IMO on this one, but i'll object. you know when you play KOTOR and you're at the final battle with Malak? he explains this function of the star forge, right? yeah, the way Malak talks to Revan, it seems very much that he's calling Revan a fool for not seeing all of the star forge's power. i don't think Revan didn't use that aspect of the star forge because he/she wasn't corrupted enough, TA, i think it was simply because Revan overlooked it.

 

Being a devil's advocate again...

 

You actually learn in TSL that Revan did not use all of the Star Forge's power. Goto said that he was shocked while Revan had an infinite Fleet (he did not know where it came from), Revan was still focused on gaining control of Military territories. Goto theorizes that wherever Revan was getting his fleet, it may be determintal to his goals, so he wanted some military territories so that he could use to produce military goods so that he no longer have to use whatever he was doing.

 

If Revan is set to DS for instance, Bastila said that Revan abandoned the Star Forge. Bastila said it was okay, since the Star Forge, if left unchecked, could destroy the Sith...and the Force.

 

Revan did not use all the powers of the Star Forge because the last time the Star Forge was used (by the Rakatans), the Rakatans went in a deveasting civil war and the Star Forge cut off their connection to the Force, because it was so hungry. Revan did not use the Star Forge because he was afraid it might betray the Sith Empire and destroy it. He did not use all of the Star Forge's power because of any fear of the Dark Side taint...but because he was afraid of the Star Forge.

 

(So Revan was still just as corrupt as ever.)

[Jediphile]

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2007/05/anakin_syndrome

 

Is there similarity between Anakin and Revan?

 

If there are, then is it ethical to put Revan on trial? After all, can you judge someone if he is unfit to be held accountable for acts he committed at the time he committed them? Or was Revan temporarily insane?

[SilentScope001]

So Revan may be an egoistic maniac. Does that mean he's not responsible for what he is doing? I disagree.

 

By that logic, all criminals (and some Jedi Masters *cough*) are insane and deserves "treatment" or "redemeption". Not just Revan, but Malak, Saul Karatah, that Sith trooper down the street, and the Exchange troopers.

 

Now, will you you say it's okay not to try them for their crimes anyway, since they are "egoistic", and under the false delusion that they are better than anyone else? But wait, that means Revan (post-wipe) executed tons and tons of Sith, because those Sith were egoistic brats who fell to the "insanity" of Dark Side. Does that mean Revan (post-wipe) should be executed for doing a good deed? Bah.

 

I also agree with Prime in that, in Star Wars, the Dark Side is a choice. You choose to fall to the Dark Side, you choose to take that first step. Revan (pre-wipe) choosen to become an egoistic manic, therefore, he is responsible for his actions.

 

As for the 30-year-old Star Wars series, "We're probably lucky nobody has started analyzing the lightsabers as phallic symbols," said clinical psychologist Kaufman. "Come to think of it, someone probably has."

 

All I can think of is Kreia's comments.

[Marauder's Fury]

Try and punish him. After that, he can redeem himself all he wants. There's a reason we have legal systems, you know.

[EnIgmA_XX]

http://www.wired.com/medtech/health/news/2007/05/anakin_syndrome

 

Is there similarity between Anakin and Revan?

 

If there are, then is it ethical to put Revan on trial? After all, can you judge someone if he is unfit to be held accountable for acts he committed at the time he committed them? Or was Revan temporarily insane?

 

okay, yet another interesting point. i'd have to say otherwise again, though.

 

okay, this is just a load of IMO, but i think it is decently backed just by the nature of diseases in general. you see, here's the thing. is there any evidence, any at all, that Revan might have this problem before the turning to the ds incident? not that i know of. what does that mean? that means that if this theory is in fact true, it must have happened at the last second for no particular reason (aka, spontaneous insanity and mental instability). this, i believe would be very highly improbable. correct me if i'm wrong, but i don't think that diseases "just happen" and especially as quickly and spontaneously as that. i mean, for Anakin, you acctually see his gradual fall. you see him slip little by little. you don't see this with Revan.

 

so, i still think Revan would be guily. Revan didn't turn away from the ds. it wasn't any mental problem. the war he/she started was a mistake and a ridiculous number of people were slaughtered for it. the extrenuating circumstances thing just doesn't work for me because he/she could've just turned away at any time. i also don't think any other party is to blame for either starting a part of the war or leading Revan to fall (on purpose or because of foolishness).