Can't get married? Go to Disney World!

[Achilles]

I was pointing out a false analogy. Comparing a food dislike to a behavior dislike is comparing two entirely different things. How something affects our sense of taste has nothing to do with how we behave. You can't equate or even compare sensory input and activities.

All analogies are false analogies. Accepting that we can then move on to "good analogies" and "poor analogies". I continue to submit that the hot dog analogy was a good one.

 

Speaking of studies, going off on a slight tangent since you mentioned it in another thread and I'm feeling too crappy tonight to go search--we're not limited to a 5 year window, particularly medical stuff. Landmark studies can be older than 5 years and be very relevant. The best studies on treatment of diabetic eye disease and the cause of cataracts (primarily UV radiation) came out about 10 years ago, but are still very relevant today, and drive a lot of our treatment modalities.

This might be a difference in industries then. Interestingly, one would think that the medical field would be more rigorous about using current sources than business/management, but I suppose there are factors at play that I'm not aware of.

 

If you were comparing 2 different sensory experiences that had no moral impact, then it would be a red herring. You're comparing 2 entirely different things. One has a moral implication, the other does not. Same with ET's sweater analogy.

That's the thing, Jae - neither one has a moral impact. You think that one of them does, but it doesn't. That the foundation of my argument (as well as the arguments of other, though I'm hesitant to speak for them). It's not a red herring because they are equitable in the context being used. You would need to provide evidence that homosexuality was immoral for your argument to stand, thereby making the comment a red herring.

 

I'm glad you posted that, as I think it will help to illuminate the true cause of the divide in our arguments

 

That's a sensory experience that has no bearing on mores, while sex does. Sex (and types thereof) does have an impact on morals and vice versa, whether you like it or not.

This seems to put the cart before the horse. Common disgust of homosexuals (mores) make homosexual sex immoral (morals). I understand the progression but I don't agree that this has a strong logical foundation.

 

Let me try this: Should morals be based on logic? Do you think it's possible to have morals that are illogical?

 

My argument is that just because it's consider by some to be immoral, because of their mores/norms, does not mean that it truely is.

 

I'm not sure we should just arbitrarily toss that out the window and say 'oh, sex is just a fun and pleasant activity, we don't need to worry about its impact on society anymore.' The sexual revolution (straight and gay) has had a profound impact on marriage, single-parent families, and poverty (single-mother households make up the greatest percentage of those in poverty). It's not just about what happens in the bedroom itself.

If you're implying a causal relationship, I'm going to have to ask for a source. FWIW, I certainly think that the sexual revolution was a contributing factor, but I don't think it was the sole cause. Women had been fed up of being 2nd class citizens for more than 100 years. If the sexual revolution helped to spring-board equitable treatment, then I'm all for it. The long term benefits will (hopefully) greatly outweigh the short-term problems that came out of the backlash. All social change happens on a pendulum.

 

I don't think anyone is advocating that we revert back to "free love". I do think that many people would say that many people (especially here) are entirely too stuffy about the subject.

 

Some data on sexual abuse (especially as a child) and homosexuality:

I've found similar articles for those who prefer later citations:

 

<snip for space>

 

And that's the tip of the iceberg--I could quote numerous studies. Those that have been abused have higher percentages of high-risk behavior (multiple partners, unprotected relations, IV drug abuse) and higher risk of HIV/AIDS and other STDs. The cost of treatment and disability payments for those with HIV and other STDs has a significant impact on society

Thanks for the leg work, Jae. Unfortunately, I don't see anything here that doesn't mirror sexual abuse stats for promiscuous women. Could it be that abuse (and specifically sexual abuse) lead to unhealthy behaviors and that homosexuality/heterosexuality aren't even at issue? I would sumbit that this is the case.

 

These studies are very interesting but there still isn't a strong case for a causal relationship. I would tell you that I'm sorry for being such a stickler about this, but that would be insincere

 

What is disturbing to me is the number of children who've been molested, and the number who've been molested at a very young age. If child sexual abuse is a contributor to homosexuality, then we need to evaluate that correlation and think about whether homosexuality is as an innocuous response as some claim.

First, I think we should be taking steps to wipe out child molestation regardless of whether or not it contributes to homosexuality. Second, even if we could build a causal relationship between molestation and some cases of homosexuality, we cannot speak about the nature of all homosexuals. What your references don't talk about is how those numbers compare to straight men and women that are victims of sexual abuse. At the end of the day, all those sources show is that some homosexual people were sexually abused as children. Guess what? So have some heterosexual people

 

I can live with 2 consenting adults enjoying relations as long as they do it safely and keep it in their own bedrooms (and that goes for gay or straight--I don't like to see a man and a woman in each other's pants in public anymore than I like seeing 2 men or 2 women). However, we can't ignore the impact these decisions have on personal health and society as a whole, and the impact homosexuality may have in other areas of life.

What impacts would those be?

 

What kind of guy would you want your daughter to go out with--a guy who cares about her and respects her, or a guy whose quest to get into as many girls' pants as possible drives his moral code? How much more direct can you get than that? I can tell you my daughter will be taught to look for guys who have chosen restraint in their sexual behavior in developing their moral code.

If I may, who here as advocated that taking advantage of as many hot chicks as possible is moral behavior? I would submit that any time someone is cohersed into something, then something immoral has happened (as supported by Kant). I think there's a huge difference between wanton promescuity and healthy sexual behavior.

 

May? They _do_, whether anyone likes it or not.

Sex and morals linked, morals and sex linked. Not much distinction.

I think ET's point is that homosexual people are inherently just as moral as heterosexual people. Whether people from either group decide to behave ethically is up to them (by morally, I do not mean "heterosexually"). My apologies to ET if I'm mischaracterizing his point.

 

Marriage and child-bearing are no longer linked. Single-mother households have risen significantly since the mid-60's when it became more acceptable for men and women to have sex outside of marriage, and marriage rates have decreased. There are tremendous numbers of studies linking single-parent households and poverty.

I'm sorry but so what? Society is better off if women recognize their role as housekeeper/babymaker?

 

"Whoops, married the wrong guy? Started out great, but come to find out he has a drinking problem and likes to rough you up a little you say? Ah, that's too bad - hey listen, what I'm gonna need ya to do is take one for the team and stay married to him for the rest of your life. I know it sucks, but hey, a promise is a promise and what is your peace of mind compared to upholding societies expectations?"

 

Feel free to replace "drinking problem/roughing up" with any of the myriad of reasons that marriages fail. Again, you imply that there is a direct causal relationship between the sexual revolution and today's social conditions.

 

And how in the world are _any_ of these other things related? Ed Sullivan? Is this a humor attempt? Disrespect/disdain? Mocking? Something else?

I think he's simply trying to point out there are dozens of other factors that may or may not have contributed to the social pressures that brought about the changes you've mentioned. In other words, it seems as though he trying to show that there isn't a causal relationship.

 

Or child sexual abuse is under-reported. The point is that child sexual abuse is significantly higher among homosexuals than heterosexuals.

Could you please help me understand how the second sentence is true in light of the first sentence?

 

How does promiscuity show respect for women? Can you truly respect a woman you only know for one night or just long enough to bed?

If the one night stand is consensual, how is it disrespectful? It may not necessarily jive with what I think is proper, but that doesn't make it immoral or inherently disrespectful. Waking up the next morning and saying, "Wow, biotch, that was good. Now get in that kitchen and make me some eggs", is another thing entirely.

 

Disrespect for fellow humans is also a moral issue.

Indeed it is, but you need to build a case for how a one night stand (or serial monogomy) is disrespectful.

 

OK, so assuming you really have had a high number of sexual encounters, it indeed has had an impact on your sexual morality. You might have developed stronger morals in other areas as the result of maturing in general, but your sexual morality has not improved.

First, by who's standards. Second, on who's authority is your assumption correct?

 

Your actions are not affecting just yourself, but everyone you have physical relations with. Every single person you have relations with is exposed to whatever you've picked up from any other person you've had relations with, and you're exposed to every disease they've picked up along the way. Is it moral to expose your sex partner to everything you've been exposed to? Do you have that discussion with every single person you have sex with? My guess would be no, because a lot of women wouldn't want to hear that they're number 263. Is it moral to withhold information from your partner that would have a negative impact on her decision to have sex with you?

I sense an "importance of comphrehensive sexual education" rant coming on

 

In addition, sex for women is about far more than the 10 minutes or whatever you spend in the actual physical activity. Emotional intimacy is very much tied to physical intimacy, and by not respecting a woman's need for that emotional intimacy (because you have no intention of committing to their emotional needs long term if you're just seeking many people to have sex with), you're not showing respect for their needs. You can be promiscuous all you want, but don't try to justify it as moral simply because you have high morals in other parts of your life. It's not.

Most of this is based on assumption. Yes, this is true for some women...just as it is true for some men. What it is not true for is all women. It's unfair to categorize all people, put them in a box, and expect them all to conform to whatever "rule" have been assigned to it. Again, so long as the act is consensual, I don't see where we should seek to judge (that includes freaky stuff that your friends tell you about).

 

Not necessarily. Changing sexual behavior can cause changes in morals in other areas--honesty in dealing with current/future partners for instance. How many people feel like they have to hide one girlfriend/boyfriend from another? Hide the fact that they have herpes or HIV? Hide the fact that they had STDs in the past? Hide the fact that they'd gotten someone pregnant or got pregnant themselves? Hide the fact from their spouse/long-term partner that they had an affair with someone else? Lying is just one change in morals that can come as a result of immoral sexual behavior. Immorality in this one area can lead to immoral behavior in other parts of life.

I think honesty/integrity has a little bit broader scope than "sexual behavior". The behaviors you're showcasing are those of someone who is generally dishonest. It's hard to tie that dishonesty back to sexual behavior rather than the opposite.

 

Unless you're having sex with only yourself, your sexual behavior has an impact on others around you. That's very different from what you personally like to eat or wear, which has no direct impact on anyone else.

Key work: Consensual. Sexual behavior only has an impact on those around you if the sex is cohersed or unprotected.

 

And they may well be if both parents are committed to their kids. I've seen plenty of divorced parents who did a good job raising kids, though they had challenges to face that married parents did not have to deal with.

Indeed. There are advantages and disadvantages to both cases.

 

However, poverty is much higher in single-parent households, especially single-mother households. Children of single-mother households have a higher incidence of negative behaviors and criminal activity as they mature. Girls who do not have a father active in their lives are more likely to be promiscuous at a much earlier age, putting them at greater risk for unwanted pregnancy and STDs, and they're at higher risk for becoming drug abusers. Boys have a greater risk of committing crimes and ending up in jail.

While I would tend to generally agree with most of these statements, I think there are a lot of details left out. If the assumption is that these negative behaviors are directly causal with single-mother households, then I think more support is needed.

 

All of this has a huge cost monetarily and socially. We shouldn't be putting band-aid fixes on this, we should be researching and implementing programs that encourage parents to work together (and ideally get or stay married) to stay committed to their kids, working with men to step up to the plate to be responsible for their children, and protecting/implementing father's rights to be involved in their children's lives.

As a single-father of two that has to constantly compensate for actions (or lack thereof) of a dead-beat mother, I resent the implications of this statement. However I do understand the spirit in which it was made, so my undies are only slight twisted

 

We're moving so fast on the push for gay rights (and I'm _not_ for gay or single parent discrimination, let me make that clear) and assorted other alternative lifestyles that we're not stopping to consider all the ramifications--we haven't had _enough time_ to look at all the ramifications.

<snip>

There's a lot to unpack here and I'm going to run into a word count problem at some point, so I'll save my "long" response for another time. I will say that there seems to be a lot of assumption thrown into this, which makes the logic larger fallacious. Second, heterosexual couples don't have to "qualify" to be parents. Many of the studies you recommend may or may not have been done regarding heterosexual couples, but if they were, no restriction on parenting have been send down by our gov't. The whole point is that one group is allowed to have kids without "qualifying" then so should the other. I think it's completely unreasonable to make a homosexual couple jump through any hoops that a heterosexual couple doesn't have to bother with. That's discrimination.

 

*skips a few posts that repeat a lot of points already addressed*

 

My chief beef was calling promiscuous behavior 'moral' when it isn't <snip levity> However, as soon as two people who've enjoyed a night together go and share the lurv with others, it starts to become something that can have an impact on society, rather than individual, levels, and that's why it ends up being a moral issue.

Promiscuous behavior can be done either morally or immorally. I think at some point the participants in this discussion have assigned the value "one night stand" to the label "promiscuous behavior". Yes, one night stands are one example of promiscousness, however they are not the only example. Most people are serially monogomous for most, if not all, of their lives. By the word's definition, this is promiscous behavior. I could be wrong, but I don't think you would go so far as to say that someone who's been in 5 six-month relationships in 5 years is "immoral". So taking it step further, what about someone that has one consensual one-night stand every six months, but is entirely celebate otherwise? At what point does that person magically become "immoral"? More importantly, does that threshold get crossed when they hit some magic number or is it crossed when they start displaying some other behavior such as dishonesty or disrepectfulness?

 

<snip list of diseases>

I only pause here to point out that your comment does not address ET's point (strawman) and remind you that we do now have a vaccine for HPV.

 

You're pretty safe in knowing that at least some of the women you may have had relations with really needed more than you were willing to give them emotionally in return for a romp in the bedroom.

You assume that those women were not similarly looking for nothing more than a romp in the bedroom. I can tell you first hand that there are a lot of women just looking to get their pipes cleaned and will drop you like a bad habit if you mention "feelings" or "committment". They might not hold a simple majority, but there are more of them out there than you think (P.S. I can't get to your source without a login so I can't check their methodology. If they excluded certain groups of women, then your study might be based on a bad sample).

 

I'm not projecting anything on that--that's what the non-religious, moral-neutral study said, and there are others I'd have to copy links for you on. The fact that women are promiscuous doesn't erase those emotional needs--they deal with those in other ways, many times developing depression that you may never see since you're only there for 1 night at most.

Possibly but the fact remains that such behavior is consensual at the time and therefore not immoral. The fact that there might be long term affects is possible, but it is also possible that there might not be.

 

Actually, Jimbo and I will sit down with both kids and have a series of age-appropriate discussions of what sex is, what we think is an appropriate attitude towards it, why we've developed the moral stance we have on it, discuss how one gets pregnant, how one catches diseases, how to prevent both, how to handle birth control appropriately, how to handle horny guys/gals and say 'no' or 'I'd like to wait', how to handle the 'if you really love me, you'd do it with me' manipulative argument, where to find 'nice men/women' (not at a bar, usually), and the fact that if they do end up having sex before marriage they need to take appropriate steps to protect themselves/their partners and that while we won't like it because of all the health/emotional ramifications, we still will love them and will help them any way they need.

Kudos. Please go convince your conservative brothers and sisters to do the same.

 

Didn't you say a couple posts back that your moral stance on sex had changed? Why wouldn't it for others as well, especially at some watershed event in their lives? I've seen plenty of people who've made one single bad choice in their lives and it affected them greatly for a long time after.

Yep and not all of those "bad choices" concern sex either

 

Why is that so hard to believe? Jimbo and I are very happy even after 17 years, and it's only gotten better with time. Some things you can't learn until you've been with someone intimately for a long time. We're still learning new subtle things about each other and how to do an even better job of making each other happy. I've got filet mignon at home. Why would I want to go look at all the hamburger out there?

Probably because it's so rare. Very few species select mates for life and we (like lots of other mammals) appear to be wired for serial monogomy (think March of the Penguins but with cell phones and automobiles). I think a vast majority of people have been suckered into some Disney-style fairy tale about "happily ever after" and are constantly on the prowl for Prince Charming/Snow White. The reality is that making monogomy a reality involves a lot of hard work and a vast majority of people are unable/unwilling to acknowledge this let alone commit to the workload. So if you found that, then I'm truly happy for you, but it would be great if you could acknowledge that you are the exception and not the rule.

 

The only remaining unturned post is a rehash, so this is probably a good place to stop. Thanks for reading and my apologies for the delayed response(s).

 

Take care.

 

PS: Due to msg length, I won't be checking for typos so deal with it

[Jae Onasi]

There's so many quotes I'm going to leave some of them off and just reply, since numbers of quote tags/smilies are actually limited....

Hot Dog analogy--An analogy comparing 2 entirely different things is not a good analogy.

This might be a difference in industries then. Interestingly, one would think that the medical field would be more rigorous about using current sources than business/management, but I suppose there are factors at play that I'm not aware of.

That's because human life cycles are much longer than economic cycles. What you did in business 5 years ago may be completely different than what you do now. However, five years is just the beginning amount of time needed to determine whether a drug, surgery, or other treatment is going to have long-term efficacy in the treatment of a given disease.

The landmark, multi-center studies take sometimes years to obtain results or show long term effects of medications. The Framingham Nurse's Study has been going on for decades, for instance. Researchers will come out with major results after a number of years of research, although there's always ongoing side studies based off the findings of the landmark studies. You have to study some things for decades before you can see real results of a particular treatment modality or a particular medication. Take glaucoma treatment for instance. Because the disease does its damage over years rather than months, it can take a good 5 years before you can really tell if a drug is stopping the progression, because progression can be fairly slow. You may not know for a couple years if the new eye drop you're using is effective or not.

The other thing is that in business, if something's not working, you can just change it and try something new out relatively quickly. You can't do that with people quite the same way because of the ethics issues. If you have a new drug you want to try, you have to do animal experiments first, then experiments with a very small group of people to make sure there's some benefits and not horrible side effects, and then you can move on to larger study groups where you're going to get the better data.

There are other factors in play, too, but those are some of the bigger issues we face in medical research.

Common disgust of homosexuals (mores) make homosexual sex immoral (morals).

I never said homosexuality was disgusting and never will, so I want to be very clear on that implication before someone gets the wrong idea.

Should morals be based on logic? Do you think it's possible to have morals that are illogical?

I'll bite, though this will probably spin off into another topic.

Logic is a human construct. Therefore, it's possible to have illogical morals. We know intuitively that some things are objectively right and wrong (slicing up a baby for instance), however, so I base that knowledge on an objective moral standard outside humanity (God in this case). If humanity is the sole determinant of morality, we end up with Stalin, Mao, and a host of other problems. However, that's going to send this way off topic so I'll leave that discussion for a different thread.

If you're implying a causal relationship, I'm going to have to ask for a source. FWIW, I certainly think that the sexual revolution was a contributing factor, but I don't think it was the sole cause. Women had been fed up of being 2nd class citizens for more than 100 years. If the sexual revolution helped to spring-board equitable treatment, then I'm all for it. The long term benefits will (hopefully) greatly outweigh the short-term problems that came out of the backlash. All social change happens on a pendulum.

I'll go find a source for you within a couple days. What other causes do you think there are?

I differentiate gender rights issues from the sexual revolution, btw--that wasn't clear. The long term benefits may well outweigh short-term problems, _if_ we survive them. AIDS is rapidly depopulating parts of Africa, and the only reason it hasn't had that effect here is because our medical system has made huge strides in treatment.

I don't think anyone is advocating that we revert back to "free love". I do think that many people would say that many people (especially here) are entirely too stuffy about the subject.

I'm sure you do think I'm stuffy. However, I made a promise to Jimbo, and I intend to keep that promise. If that's being 'stuffy', then I'm delighted to be stuffy and have my honor intact.

I don't see anything here that doesn't mirror sexual abuse stats for promiscuous women.

That's because I didn't research any studies on promiscuous women. I'm sure there's plenty of info out there since there are med studies on prostitutes.

 

Could it be that abuse (and specifically sexual abuse) lead to unhealthy behaviors and that homosexuality/heterosexuality aren't even at issue? I would sumbit that this is the case.

I wouldn't mind seeing a link to a study on that.

What your references don't talk about is how those numbers compare to straight men and women that are victims of sexual abuse.

Good heavens, are you wanting an entire thesis? It's a discussion! I brought up a point. You can't ding me for not making this into a college course.

There are books on this stuff, none of which I really have the time or inclination to read. I'd get way too angry about the stories of kids being abused to get very far into those books.

 

At the end of the day, all those sources show is that some homosexual people were sexually abused as children. Guess what? So have some heterosexual people

Believe me, I know, and I've been very blessed not to have had first-hand experience, but I have close relationships with some people who have, and it's heart-wrenching to hear what they've been through.

What impacts would those be?

Chiefly health related (which I noted in previous posts). STD spread in particular, certain health problems associated with specific types of male/male contact, partner abuse (which obviously is not exclusive to gays or straights), depression in women in particular because of relational issues, and so forth.

If I may, who here as advocated that taking advantage of as many hot chicks as possible is moral behavior?

The argument has been that promiscuity is not immoral. You can have amoral actions, but promiscuity's an either/or thing vis-a-vis moral/immoral.

I think ET's point is that homosexual people are inherently just as moral as heterosexual people.

I was thinking 'promiscuous' by that point in the argument, not 'homosexual'. You can be moral in most areas of life and participate in some immoral practices (not necessarily sex-related, btw). That doesn't make the immoral practice suddenly moral just because you happen to be a good person overall.

Feel free to replace "drinking problem/roughing up" with any of the myriad of reasons that marriages fail. Again, you imply that there is a direct causal relationship between the sexual revolution and today's social conditions.

Come on--I'm not stupid. I'm not advocating that women (or men) stay in relationships where they're getting the snot beaten out of them on a regular basis. I'm saying society needs to be supporting that committment of two people a lot better than it has--be that marriage counseling for people to work through their problems, financial counseling because finance problems are the biggest reason for marriages to fail, drug/alcohol counseling if that's part of the problem, etc.

 

Could you please help me understand how the second sentence is true in light of the first sentence?

Child sexual abuse is underreported across the board, hetero- or homosexual. I believe the study mentioned something about that as well.

If the one night stand is consensual, how is it disrespectful?

How can you have true respect for someone you really don't know but are sharing an intimate act with? Can you really trust someone that well in that short of a time? How can you meet a woman's needs for emotional closeness in that short of a time? You can't.

"Wow, biotch, that was good. Now get in that kitchen and make me some eggs",

I sense an "importance of comphrehensive sexual education" rant coming on

Comprehensive sexual education is very important. See previous rants in other threads. I disagree completely with my evangelical brethren on abstinence only education. Abstinence should be part of comprehensive education, but not in place of it. For heaven's sake, it should be taught for no other reason than at some point, evangelicals are going to get married and have sex and it might be nice to know how not to have babies.

 

What it is not true for is all women.

If your talking individuals, no. If you're talking a statistic on women's needs extrapolated from millions of women, then you can say 'most women have these emotional needs'. I'm looking at the issue globally since I'm talking societal norms, not individual. There's a difference.

 

Again, so long as the act is consensual, I don't see where we should seek to judge (that includes freaky stuff that your friends tell you about).

Well, I don't get in my friends' faces about it. If they ask, I'll tell them why I feel the way I do, and we have some fun discussions (you don't want to know what to do with a habitrail tube, trust me). Several of my friends have/had AIDS, so they already have experienced the consequences of their behaviors first hand and don't need me being preachy. Instead I show them love and help them out however I can.

 

Sexual behavior only has an impact on those around you if the sex is cohersed or unprotected.

If we didn't have a huge problem with date rape and if every single person used fail-proof protection every single time, and specific types of sex didn't have increased health risks associated with them, then sex might not be a moral issue.

If the assumption is that these negative behaviors are directly causal with single-mother households, then I think more support is needed.

There are a lot of studies and a number of books on fatherless households, and the causal links are clear.

 

As a single-father of two that has to constantly compensate for actions (or lack thereof) of a dead-beat mother, I resent the implications of this statement. However I do understand the spirit in which it was made, so my undies are only slight twisted

Gah. There are so many more single-mother households than single-father households it's easy to just think about the former and forget about the latter. Dead-beat mothers are just as destructive as dead-beat fathers, and that should be dealt with just as much. Mother's rights are pretty much the standard, but father's rights are not, and we're just now finally 'discovering' how important fathers are in children's lives.

 

The rest I have to get to another time--we have a family party to go to.

[ET Warrior]

I don't think sex itself is bad when used in its intended way (making babies when people are ready for a family, bringing a husband and wife closer together physically and emotionally).

Who exactly decides what the "intended way" to use sex is? If you're taking a stance based on biology, then the ONLY intended way to have sex is for the purpose of procreation, in which case all non-procreative sex is immoral (I am aware there are some religions which actually believe this). Your subtext about making babies and bringing husbands and wives together is a projection of your brand of morals towards sex onto everyone else.

 

No, because you don't have the potential to give her a disease that way, get her pregnant, and there's not the same issue of emotional commitment when you skydive compared to when you make love with someone.

So you would say that it is better that I am exposing her to risk of death than risk of (mostly)non-life threatening disease, childbirth, or emotional stress? I would think the latter are far less serious than the former.

 

My main point is that with a cold, you stay in bed a couple days (if you're lucky enough to be able to), and you get over it. *money talk*

How about diseases like the Flu, Pink Eye, etc. I could give half a dozen co-workers the Flu just by showing up to the office when I have it, without even realizing it's the flu. And if we're going to start complaining about the costs of medical care, then we also need to start outlawing things like alcohol, tobacco, fast food, extreme sports, etc. etc. All of those activities have associated risks of incurring high medical bills.

 

Not sure what this has to do with sex and morality, if anything.

You are saying that someone who chooses to engage in promiscuous sex and ends up contracting an STD is somehow a victim, and this is why it's immoral. I used the analogy of a man crossing a busy interstate and getting hit by a car. In both cases the parties involved should have been aware of the risks in their chosen activity, and if they get burned it is their own fault.

 

How many guys do you know have told their girlfriends 'if you loved me, you'd do it?' And then dropped them like a hot potato shortly after their 'conquest'?

I'm pretty sure this actually illustrates my point quite nicely. I have not stated that promiscuous sex is an inherently moral activity, nor inherently immoral. It's not a moral issue. What is a moral issue is how one goes about engaging in promiscuous sex. That kind of coercion IS immoral.

 

One person causing another pain is indeed a moral issue.

Intentionally causing another pain is a moral issue, sure. But am I being immoral if I ask a woman to see a scary movie, unaware that she won't be able to sleep for a week after she sees it? Or is it her responsibility to be aware of the things that are likely to cause her distress and avoid them?

 

*ET read Playboy, liked the articles, and found a girl to kiss.*

Playboy has articles?

 

Hot Dog analogy--An analogy comparing 2 entirely different things is not a good analogy.

It's a good analogy when the two are analogous. Which I have been attempting to show for the last two pages

 

I'll go find a source for you within a couple days. What other causes do you think there are?

Femminism, Globalism, Technological advances, mass media, I could probably come up with a few others if need be.

 

I'm sure you do think I'm stuffy. However, I made a promise to Jimbo, and I intend to keep that promise. If that's being 'stuffy', then I'm delighted to be stuffy and have my honor intact.

I don't think anyone here is calling for the end of committed relationships, just the realization that commitment isn't for everyone.

 

How can you have true respect for someone you really don't know but are sharing an intimate act with?

By saying "Thank You" the next morning?

 

How can you meet a woman's needs for emotional closeness in that short of a time?

Not. All. Women. Need. Emotional. Closeness. Yes, perhaps a majority of women do need that, and those are the kinds of women who shouldn't be engaging in promiscuous sex. But why is it the responsibility of their partners to make sure of that?

 

If we didn't have a huge problem with date rape and if every single person used fail-proof protection every single time, and specific types of sex didn't have increased health risks associated with them, then sex might not be a moral issue.

So the moral issue is not sex, but rather things like date rape or engaging in unsafe sexual practices. The health issues are simply a non-issue because a LOT of activities that you have no moral qualms with have associated health risks.

[Jae Onasi]

ET, we've probably just about exhausted the discussion, although we likely could find hilarious euphemisms for the next century. I will say that while other activities may have associated health risks, sex is the only natural way to make babies (which has societal implications if daddy/mommy decide to take off), and STDs tend to have nastier effects than the common cold.

 

I'm glad you say 'thank you' in the morning, and yes, I've heard Playboy has articles. Apparently Playgirl does, too.

 

Here's something I want to toss out there for discussion:

Why is disagreement with homosexuality automatically labeled homophobia? Right now its seems like you are either 'pro-gay' or you're 'homophobic'. I think there is a much broader range than just these two labels, one of which is a pejorative.

[Achilles]

Sorry for the delayed response. Please be forewarned that the 2nd playthrough of Oblivion is more engrossing than the first. You may never see Jimbo again .

 

There's so many quotes I'm going to leave some of them off and just reply, since numbers of quote tags/smilies are actually limited....

Hot Dog analogy--An analogy comparing 2 entirely different things is not a good analogy.

I acknowledge that you don't see the similarity and have adopted this position on the matter.

 

That's because human life cycles are much longer than economic cycles.

<snip for length>

That may be. It would seem to me that requirements for medical papers should be more strigent considering all the advances in science and medicine, but I'm not in that field so I'll have to defer to you.

 

I never said homosexuality was disgusting and never will, so I want to be very clear on that implication before someone gets the wrong idea.

No, you didn't and I don't think anyone says that you did. You did however jump right smack into the middle of the debate with Igyman in which he seemed to adopt the position that it was. You have continued to defend his position even though he stopped doing so weeks ago, so I'm not sure where we go from here. If you would like to continue this train of thought, please respond to my question.

 

I'll bite, though this will probably spin off into another topic.

Logic is a human construct.

Actually it isn't. We've had to develop our own way of interpretting it via symbols, etc, but it would exist whether we were cognizant of it or not. This is like saying 2+2=4 only when people are old enough to do the math and not a moment before.

 

Therefore, it's possible to have illogical morals.

For instance?

 

We know intuitively that some things are objectively right and wrong (slicing up a baby for instance), however, so I base that knowledge on an objective moral standard outside humanity (God in this case).

Actually, to your earlier point "right" and "wrong" are human constructs. "Moral" and "Immoral" aren't. Is there ever a case where "slicing up a baby" might be moral? Since I think that I already know your answer, you can probably consider that question rhetorical.

 

PS: While I might agree that there is an objective moral standard "outside humanity" you have absolutely no evidence to suggest that it comes from god. What if the true source of that morality is satan and you have it all wrong? YOUR ability to reason out moral from immoral behavior probably (correctly) tells you that this isn't the case, but it isn't based on any religious evidence.

 

If humanity is the sole determinant of morality, we end up with Stalin, Mao, and a host of other problems. However, that's going to send this way off topic so I'll leave that discussion for a different thread.

Please support this argument here or in the other thread. Saying it doesn't make it so.

 

I'll go find a source for you within a couple days. What other causes do you think there are?

This was posted 11 days ago. Is there an update available regarding the status of this?

 

I think I actually responded to this in the section that you quoted. You seem to be pointing to one event and saying "yep, that's it" when the reality is that that event was the culmination of decades of other stuff. The sexual revolution didn't happen all by itself because no one had anything better to do for that decade.

 

I differentiate gender rights issues from the sexual revolution, btw--that wasn't clear. The long term benefits may well outweigh short-term problems, _if_ we survive them. AIDS is rapidly depopulating parts of Africa, and the only reason it hasn't had that effect here is because our medical system has made huge strides in treatment.

This argument seems to ignore the fact that AIDS is spreading so rapidly due in part to conservative efforts to "go back to the good old days". Seems to me that this course of action seems akin to sticking one's head in the sand. Not to mention that introducing AIDS here is a red herring

 

I'm sure you do think I'm stuffy. However, I made a promise to Jimbo, and I intend to keep that promise. If that's being 'stuffy', then I'm delighted to be stuffy and have my honor intact.

Because you're monogomous? No way. I have a great deal of respect for anyone that can find and maintain a monogomous relationship. My comment was made only to highlight the fact that we are not monogomous animals by nature and that one should probably not judge those that aren't monogomous too harshly. Especially if that someone else isn't your partner and therefore couldn't possibly harm you with what they do behind closed doors.

 

That's because I didn't research any studies on promiscuous women. I'm sure there's plenty of info out there since there are med studies on prostitutes.

So then you concede my point that your earlier findings don't support your argument?

 

I wouldn't mind seeing a link to a study on that.

Niether would I. Then my speculative comment would then be a supportable argument.

 

Good heavens, are you wanting an entire thesis? It's a discussion! I brought up a point. You can't ding me for not making this into a college course.

There are books on this stuff, none of which I really have the time or inclination to read. I'd get way too angry about the stories of kids being abused to get very far into those books.

Are you asking me to play with kid gloves? I understand "friendly discussion" but I don't agree that "friendly discussion" = "I get to just make stuff up and you have to believe it". I saw way too many of those late night, "what if the stars were really just grains of sand on god's beach" discussions when I worked graveyards at Denny's a million years ago. If that's what Kavar's is supposed to be, then I completely missed the point and should probably excuse myself.

 

The point was that your studies only show one side. If you would like to retract your statement because you no longer want to defend it that's fine, but please don't get upset with me because I'm not willing to accept the results of poorly executed studies. It may also be that we don't have an answer. That's fine too, but then we shouldn't buy into the stories of those that claim to have the answer, but can't provide proof.

 

Believe me, I know, and I've been very blessed not to have had first-hand experience, but I have close relationships with some people who have, and it's heart-wrenching to hear what they've been through.

It sounds as though you're conceding my point.

 

Chiefly health related (which I noted in previous posts). STD spread in particular, certain health problems associated with specific types of male/male contact, partner abuse (which obviously is not exclusive to gays or straights), depression in women in particular because of relational issues, and so forth.

I noted that you noted, however I now note that you didn't note my note about your note not noting how those concerns are specific to homosexual couples. Thus far you have not responded to that point (other that to point out your other, still contested point). In other words, there is no evidence for any homosexual specific health risks. Which leaves us back at the point where I'm still trying to understand that argument which states that homosexuality is immoral.

 

The argument has been that promiscuity is not immoral. You can have amoral actions, but promiscuity's an either/or thing vis-a-vis moral/immoral.

Why and how? You've yet to answer either of these.

 

I was thinking 'promiscuous' by that point in the argument, not 'homosexual'. You can be moral in most areas of life and participate in some immoral practices (not necessarily sex-related, btw). That doesn't make the immoral practice suddenly moral just because you happen to be a good person overall.

I agree. However your point still seems to be that you can't be promiscous and moral and I don't understand how that works.

 

Come on--I'm not stupid. I'm not advocating that women (or men) stay in relationships where they're getting the snot beaten out of them on a regular basis. I'm saying society needs to be supporting that committment of two people a lot better than it has--be that marriage counseling for people to work through their problems, financial counseling because finance problems are the biggest reason for marriages to fail, drug/alcohol counseling if that's part of the problem, etc.

Ok, and what about when those things don't work? What about the interim? Dependency issues take years to work through (if they are worked through at all) and generally, staying in that environment doesn't benefit anyone involved. Also, who pays for these programs and provides oversight. If it's the government, then you're definitely looking at a big-government, lots of new taxes initiative and we all know how much the right loves those. If it's faith-based then you're going to run into constitutional problems. Is it safe to say that there are no easy answers for this one? It seems like option with the greatest chance for success is probably the least likely to happen.

 

Child sexual abuse is underreported across the board, hetero- or homosexual. I believe the study mentioned something about that as well.

Ok, so you concede my point that your study doesn't support your argument?

 

How can you have true respect for someone you really don't know but are sharing an intimate act with? Can you really trust someone that well in that short of a time? How can you meet a woman's needs for emotional closeness in that short of a time? You can't.

I show respect to people all the time by opening doors for them (not just women), letting people in during rush hour, etc, without knowing them. You seem to see respect as a scale, where I see it as a switch. You either are or you aren't. Of course there are varying degrees, but even a little bit disrespectful is still disrespectful.

 

Now, if some hottie and I mutually decide that we're going to throw down and then never talk to each other again, so long as I don't do anything disrepectful (like spit on her next time I see her), then I don't see how any sense of respect was violated. Again, you assume all the stuff about womens' needs while ignoring the point that a lot of women just feel the "need" to get some and get gone. Just because you don't think you know any of them (and maybe you don't but then again maybe you do), doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

Now what I am not doing is advocating one set of behaviors over another. Personally, I don't care for that lifestyle (anymore), and see great benefit in the types of relationships that you advocate, however that also means that I don't judge others that aren't doing anything that affects me. In other words, I mind my own business.

 

Comprehensive sexual education is very important. See previous rants in other threads. I disagree completely with my evangelical brethren on abstinence only education. Abstinence should be part of comprehensive education, but not in place of it. For heaven's sake, it should be taught for no other reason than at some point, evangelicals are going to get married and have sex and it might be nice to know how not to have babies.

...with the caveat that you've argued that comprehensive sex ed happens at home and not at school...with which I've disagreed (see aforemention dead threads). Of course you may have changed your position and if so I apologize. Since our discussion died off weeks ago, I have know way of knowing.

 

If your talking individuals, no. If you're talking a statistic on women's needs extrapolated from millions of women, then you can say 'most women have these emotional needs'. I'm looking at the issue globally since I'm talking societal norms, not individual. There's a difference.

Indeed there is. My point is to say that you cannot say all women have these needs. Even if the study you cite has a sound methodology (which I skeptical of), then there is still a large number of women that don't fit your stereotype. What about their rights? Should they be cowed to the "moral majority" who would probably be better off finding something to do that doesn't involve telling other people how to live their lives? That's all I'm trying to say, Jae

 

If we didn't have a huge problem with date rape and if every single person used fail-proof protection every single time, and specific types of sex didn't have increased health risks associated with them, then sex might not be a moral issue.

Not saying we don't. Only saying you can't equivocate. Again the discussion was health, not morality, so that last part is a red herring.

 

There are a lot of studies and a number of books on fatherless households, and the causal links are clear.

And until there are more studies showing the effect of motherless households, the conclusion are unsubstantiated. Sure there are problems, but you can't prove a causal relationship to fatherlessness. Of course, I retain the caveat that I don't know which studies you might be referencing because you haven't provided any.

 

I'll try to catch up on some of the other threads tomorrow. Thanks for reading.

[Jae Onasi]

That may be. It would seem to me that requirements for medical papers should be more strigent considering all the advances in science and medicine, but I'm not in that field so I'll have to defer to you.

The last boom/bust cycle lasted what, 10 years or so? Humans live 75 or so, and have changing health issues over that time span. You can't think up an idea for a drug and just start indiscriminately giving it to people because you're convinced it'll work, even if your theory is an excellent one. If you change a major business principle, you might see a bump in your company's profit/loss column the next quarter. If you give someone a heart med, you may know in the next quarter if it's effective in a major way, but you might not know the full side effects (some of which don't show up for months), and you probably won't know all of the positive effects for years, because people's health changes much slower than the econ cycle. A couple of eye drops take a good 6 weeks just to take full effect, much less create measurable changes. If I give a person an anti-glaucoma medication, I'll know fairly quickly that it drops the pressure. What I won't know is if it's slowed or halted the progression of the disease itself for at least a year if not longer. You also have the luxury of making a mistake with your business changes--at worst it's going to cause a loss or decrease profit. You do something wrong with patients and you can cause death/other problems.

People can't change nearly as fast as the business world can, so medicine isn't always going to change as fast, either.

 

This was posted 11 days ago. Is there an update available regarding the status of this?

Well, I got sucked into blogging and spending time with family over the Memorial day weekend. Since you were cheerfully busy bashing Oblivion gates, I didn't feel the urge to hurry.

 

Ok, so you concede my point{x3 or 4}

a. do I need to in a discussion forum?

b. I didn't think Kavar's in general was an either/or, win-lose thing. If thinking you've 'won' makes you happier, I'm not going to stop you. I just like picking people's brains to see where they're coming from. I don't generally care about the debate win-loss column--I haven't had any training in debate techniques so it's unlikely I'd 'win' in the vast majority of cases anyway.

[Achilles]

<snip medical industry stuff>

I think I might not be making my point very well.

 

Suppose I'm a med student and I'm in medical school. My specialization is cardiovascular medicine. When I write my papers for class, am I going to use 12 year old research or am I going to try to find something more recent (say within the last 5 years)? If you're telling me that med students are allowed to use 12 year old paper when 12 year old research is all that's available for a particular subject or if it's being used to compare/contrast recent findings then I take your meaning and acknowledge the difference. If you're telling me that students are permitted to ignore recent research/advances (which occur much more frequently than business practices), then I guess I'm going to have to change my opinion on the medical field. I hope that helps to clarify.

 

Well, I got sucked into blogging and spending time with family over the Memorial day weekend. Since you were cheerfully busy bashing Oblivion gates, I didn't feel the urge to hurry.

Understood. Does this mean your abandoning your argument?

 

a. do I need to in a discussion forum?

I really fail to see what the type of forum has to do with anything, but no you don't. If you don't respond than your point simply goes on abandoned. I was just asking so I would know whether or not to expect further remarks from you.

 

b. I didn't think Kavar's in general was an either/or, win-lose thing. If thinking you've 'won' makes you happier, I'm not going to stop you. I just like picking people's brains to see where they're coming from. I don't generally care about the debate win-loss column--I haven't had any training in debate techniques so it's unlikely I'd 'win' in the vast majority of cases anyway.

I think there might be some confusion about the role an argument make in a discussion. An argument is not some tool used exclusively in a formal debate. It is a point or series of points used to make or defend a view. Saying "I don't need to use arguments in a friendly discussion" is a lot like saying "that car accident doesn't count because I wasn't driving anywhere important".

 

I understand that Kavar's isn't formal debate, but arguments, points, etc aren't exclusive to formal debates. If the goal isn't to make an argument, then we're all just blogging here.

 

So, with that cleared up: it's not about winning or losing. If an argument is made, than others have the right to respond. The first person can either choose to respond to reinforce their argument (usually by reiterating points, introducing new ones, or pointing out errors in the respondent's logic), they can abandon their argument (in which case the respondent may appear to have "won" even though they didn't), or they can concede ("yep, I guess I wasn't looking at it like that. You're right").

 

I like picking brains too. Exchanging ideas is a great way to see other perspectives and influence one's own thinking. However, unless I'm called to task when something I say is incorrect, I'm not likely to realize that thinking is flawed until some other epiphany straightens me out. If you need to categorize that as "win/lose" then feel free, but it has never occurred to me to look at it that way.

 

FWIW, I've never had any debate training or even taken a Logic 101 course. One does not need either of these things to have friendly discussions on serious topics

 

Thanks for your response.

[shamelessposer]

Wow. It's amazing how much a person will go out of their way to hold onto their prejudices and bigotry in the face of little things like "logic" and "facts." Saying gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt is a bigoted statement, but repeatedly comparing them to pedophiles is beyond the pale.

[Jae Onasi]

I think I might not be making my point very well.

 

Suppose I'm a med student and I'm in medical school. My specialization is cardiovascular medicine. When I write my papers for class, am I going to use 12 year old research or am I going to try to find something more recent (say within the last 5 years)? If you're telling me that med students are allowed to use 12 year old paper when 12 year old research is all that's available for a particular subject or if it's being used to compare/contrast recent findings then I take your meaning and acknowledge the difference. If you're telling me that students are permitted to ignore recent research/advances (which occur much more frequently than business practices), then I guess I'm going to have to change my opinion on the medical field. I hope that helps to clarify.

We would use the newer studies when available. You noted that you can't use _any_ studies over 5 years old in your work. That's not the case in medicine because there may not be newer stuff in 5 years in major research because of the very long time it takes.

Take your cardiovascular research--the findings that lowering cholesterol and taking aspirin can lower the number of heart attacks, especially in high risk patients, came out of a major study involving university centers all over the country. The Ocular Hypertension Treatment Study was likewise conducted over a number of years at multiple universities and found that people with above-normal ocular pressures cut their risk of developing glaucoma from 9% to 5% if they do treatment to lower pressure. These landmark studies are huge, involve a lot of people, and take years to complete. The findings tell us how many people are likely to react if we use x treatment vs. no treatment. These major studies can radically change treatment modalities--we now are more aggressive about treating above-normal pressure in non-glaucoma patients, for instance, and a lot more people are now on cholesterol-lowering meds and aspirin because of the major heart studies. Smaller studies spin off of these major studies--e.g. does Lumigan or Xalatan do a better job of lowering ocular pressure? Should we us 81mg of aspirin or 325? Which statin drug does a better job of lowering cholesterol? Which high blood pressure medicine works best for which race (e.g. ACE inhibitors do a better job of lowering high blood pressure in certain races over others). It's that kind of thing. Landmark studies drive treatment philosophy, newer studies drive specific treatments in specific genders/ages/races, etc. The finding that lowering eye pressure in people with above normal pressures reduces risk of developing glaucoma is going to be just as valid 10 years from now as today. It means that we eye docs are going to want patients to lower pressures. The heart studies indicating that lowering cholesterol reduces risk of heart attack is going to be just as valid 50 years from now as today. Specifics on how to lower eye pressure or cholesterol likely will change over the years. Think along the lines of landmark studies serving as the foundation for the follow-up studies, and the landmark study findings will still be valid for a long time.

 

 

Understood. Does this mean your abandoning your argument?

Probably not, I'm just taking awhile.

I really fail to see what the type of forum has to do with anything, but no you don't. If you don't respond than your point simply goes on abandoned. I was just asking so I would know whether or not to expect further remarks from you.

I have to finish up the reply the the second half of your other post.

 

I understand that Kavar's isn't formal debate, but arguments, points, etc aren't exclusive to formal debates. If the goal isn't to make an argument, then we're all just blogging here.

So, with that cleared up: it's not about winning or losing. If an argument is made, than others have the right to respond. The first person can either choose to respond to reinforce their argument (usually by reiterating points, introducing new ones, or pointing out errors in the respondent's logic), they can abandon their argument (in which case the respondent may appear to have "won" even though they didn't), or they can concede ("yep, I guess I wasn't looking at it like that. You're right").

Another option--"I haven't decided yet" or "I'm thinking about it." Which probably drives some people crazy because it's not a definitive yes/no, but on major issues may be a valid answer as someone sorts through all the different information.

If you need to categorize that as "win/lose" then feel free, but it has never occurred to me to look at it that way.

Then why urge someone to concede?

FWIW, I've never had any debate training or even taken a Logic 101 course. One does not need either of these things to have friendly discussions on serious topics

Your sig indicates a fair amount of study on the subject, however.

 

Saying gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt is a bigoted statement

Please share with all of us why _you_ feel that way. What advantages do you see to gay adoption for the child? What kind of information do you have available that shows the benefits and addresses risks, if there are any risks?

 

repeatedly comparing them to pedophiles is beyond the pale

No one's doing that here. The major discussion in regards to homosexuality and pedophilia is that some studies show that homosexuals are more likely to have been _victims_ of pedophiles, not _perpetrators_. I feel experiencing sexual abuse as a child may well be a causal factor in the development of homosexuality. I have not researched the sexual orientation of pedophiles--that subject makes me just really angry so I prefer not to delve into that unless I absolutely have to (mainly in regards to protecting my kids from them). I have a number of gay friends and some gay relatives, and there's only one who I would never leave my kids with, but that's not because he's got a bent for pedophilia so much as he's nuts about sex with anyone and anything. I wouldn't let my kids stay with a straight sex maniac, either.

[shamelessposer]

Please share with all of us why _you_ feel that way.

 

"I don't think blacks should be allowed to adopt."

 

"I don't think Jews should be allowed to adopt."

 

"I don't think gays should be allowed to adopt."

 

One of these things is just like the others.

 

What advantages do you see to gay adoption for the child?

 

Not being in an orphanage?

[Jae Onasi]

What advantages do you see to gay adoption for the child?

 

Not being in an orphanage?

What kind of information do you have available that shows the benefits and addresses risks, if there are any risks?

Aside from the obvious 'not being in an orphanage....'

 

Let me put it this way. A lot of my evengelical brethren are very concerned about what kind of care a child would receive in the care of gay adoptive parents. They're scared that the child will suffer harm, and when you're talking about care of children, that's a legitimate concern for anyone--no one wants to see children harmed. What kinds of things would you say to them to allay their fears? Assume that if you're making a sarcastic statement, they're going to be offended and turned off by your message, so your job is to educate and help them understand.

Here's their chief concerns--

1. The child may be at greater risk for developing homosexuality (and if we're all honest, we'll admit that at this time in history, being homosexual in this society presents some challenges that being straight does not)

2. The child will be missing learning about one gender role (either male or female, depending on gender of gay parents, obviously)

3. The child may become confused about gender roles if a male acts very feminine or a woman acts very masculine

4. Children growing up without fathers are at higher risk for a host of problems (and here's lots of stuff for you, Achilles, if I can get it all in 1 post. )

 

They don't want you to call them bigots, shamelessposer. All that's going to do is turn them off from your message even more. They want you to understand their concerns, and they want you to show them how children benefit, and how you'd address those perceived problems.

 

More for Achilles, but this is some of the concerns about living in a single gender/parent home.

Some stats--a bit old, but I just started looking at some of this and wanted to throw it out there around the campfire, so to speak, for discussion.

More Statistics

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes

85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)

80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)

75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.)

70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)

85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

 

How many more links would you like, Achilles?

 

Edit: But wait, there's more...

http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/index.shtml

http://fatherhood.hhs.gov/Research/reports.shtml

Research on fathering: http://www.rcgd.isr.umich.edu/nihnetwork/projects/fatherhood/publications.htm

http://www.menweb.org/fatherin.htm

http://www.fathers.com/research/consequences.html (you'll likely consider the site very conservative, but the data is interesting)

http://center.americanvalues.org/?p=6 This is just a fact sheet but gives some good starting points for other research--likely a conservative site also.

[Jae Onasi]

Double posting because of 10k character limit....

 

From: http://www.photius.com/feminocracy/facts_on_fatherless_kids.html

I can't access the site atm to evaluate bias. However, Journal of Behavioral Medicine, Adolescence, Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, and so forth are pretty respected in the field--they're not throwaway journals.

 

Sexual activity. In a study of 700 adolescents, researchers found that "compared to families with two natural parents living in the home, adolescents from single-parent families have been found to engage in greater and earlier sexual activity."

Source: Carol W. Metzler, et al. "The Social Context for Risky Sexual Behavior Among Adolescents," Journal of Behavioral Medicine 17 (1994).

 

A myriad of maladies. Fatherless children are at a dramatically greater risk of drug and alcohol abuse, mental illness, suicide, poor educational performance, teen pregnancy, and criminality.

Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

 

Drinking problems. Teenagers living in single-parent households are more likely to abuse alcohol and at an earlier age compared to children reared in two-parent households

Source: Terry E. Duncan, Susan C. Duncan and Hyman Hops, "The Effects of Family Cohesiveness and Peer Encouragement on the Development of Adolescent Alcohol Use: A Cohort-Sequential Approach to the Analysis of Longitudinal Data," Journal of Studies on Alcohol 55 (1994).

 

Drug Use: "...the absence of the father in the home affects significantly the behavior of adolescents and results in the greater use of alcohol and marijuana."

Source: Deane Scott Berman, "Risk Factors Leading to Adolescent Substance Abuse," Adolescence 30 (1995)

 

Sexual abuse. A study of 156 victims of child sexual abuse found that the majority of the children came from disrupted or single-parent homes; only 31 percent of the children lived with both biological parents. Although stepfamilies make up only about 10 percent of all families, 27 percent of the abused children lived with either a stepfather or the mother's boyfriend.

Source: Beverly Gomes-Schwartz, Jonathan Horowitz, and Albert P. Cardarelli, "Child Sexual Abuse Victims and Their Treatment," U.S. Department of Justice, Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention.

 

Child Abuse. Researchers in Michigan determined that "49 percent of all child abuse cases are committed by single mothers."

Source: Joan Ditson and Sharon Shay, "A Study of Child Abuse in Lansing, Michigan," Child Abuse and Neglect, 8 (1984).

 

Deadly predictions. A family structure index -- a composite index based on the annual rate of children involved in divorce and the percentage of families with children present that are female-headed -- is a strong predictor of suicide among young adult and adolescent white males.

Source: Patricia L. McCall and Kenneth C. Land, "Trends in White Male Adolescent, Young-Adult and Elderly Suicide: Are There Common Underlying Structural Factors?" Social Science Research 23, 1994.

 

High risk. Fatherless children are at dramatically greater risk of suicide.

Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, DC, 1993.

 

Suicidal Tendencies. In a study of 146 adolescent friends of 26 adolescent suicide victims, teens living in single-parent families are not only more likely to commit suicide but also more likely to suffer from psychological disorders, when compared to teens living in intact families.

Source: David A. Brent, et al. "Post-traumatic Stress Disorder in Peers of Adolescent Suicide Victims: Predisposing Factors and Phenomenology." Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry 34, 1995.

 

Confused identities. Boys who grow up in father-absent homes are more likely that those in father-present homes to have trouble establishing appropriate sex roles and gender identity.

Source: P.L. Adams, J.R. Milner, and N.A. Schrepf, Fatherless Children, New York, Wiley Press, 1984.

 

Psychiatric Problems. In 1988, a study of preschool children admitted to New Orleans hospitals as psychiatric patients over a 34-month period found that nearly 80 percent came from fatherless homes.

Source: Jack Block, et al. "Parental Functioning and the Home Environment in Families of Divorce," Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, 27 (1988)

 

Emotional distress. Children living with a never-married mother are more likely to have been treated for emotional problems.

Source: L. Remez, "Children Who Don't Live with Both Parents Face Behavioral Problems," Family Planning Perspectives (January/February 1992).

 

Uncooperative kids. Children reared by a divorced or never-married mother are less cooperative and score lower on tests of intelligence than children reared in intact families. Statistical analysis of the behavior and intelligence of these children revealed "significant detrimental effects" of living in a female-headed household. Growing up in a female-headed household remained a statistical predictor of behavior problems even after adjusting for differences in family income.

Source: Greg L. Duncan, Jeanne Brooks-Gunn and Pamela Kato Klebanov, "Economic Deprivation and Early Childhood Development," Child Development 65 (1994).

Unstable families, unstable lives. Compared to peers in two-parent homes, black children in single-parent households are more likely to engage in troublesome behavior, and perform poorly in school.

Source: Tom Luster and Hariette Pipes McAdoo, "Factors Related to the Achievement and Adjustment of Young African-American Children." Child Development 65 (1994): 1080-1094

 

Beyond class lines. Even controlling for variations across groups in parent education, race and other child and family factors, 18- to 22-year-olds from disrupted families were twice as likely to have poor relationships with their mothers and fathers, to show high levels of emotional distress or problem behavior, [and] to have received psychological help.

Source: Nicholas Zill, Donna Morrison, and Mary Jo Coiro, "Long Term Effects of Parental Divorce on Parent-Child Relationships, Adjustment and Achievement in Young Adulthood." Journal of Family Psychology 7 (1993).

 

Fatherly influence. Children with fathers at home tend to do better in school, are less prone to depression and are more successful in relationships. Children from one-parent families achieve less and get into trouble more than children from two parent families.

Source: One Parent Families and Their Children: The School's Most Significant Minority, conducted by The Consortium for the Study of School Needs of Children from One Parent Families, co sponsored by the National Association of Elementary School Principals and the Institute for Development of Educational Activities, a division of the Charles F. Kettering Foundation, Arlington, VA., 1980

 

Divorce disorders. Children whose parents separate are significantly more likely to engage in early sexual activity, abuse drugs, and experience conduct and mood disorders. This effect is especially strong for children whose parents separated when they were five years old or younger.

Source: David M. Fergusson, John Horwood and Michael T. Lynsky, "Parental Separation, Adolescent Psychopathology, and Problem Behaviors," Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry 33 (1944).

 

Troubled marriages, troubled kids. Compared to peers living with both biological parents, sons and daughters of divorced or separated parents exhibited significantly more conduct problems. Daughters of divorced or separated mothers evidenced significantly higher rates of internalizing problems, such as anxiety or depression.

Source: Denise B. Kandel, Emily Rosenbaum and Kevin Chen, "Impact of Maternal Drug Use and Life Experiences on Preadolescent Children Born to Teenage Mothers," Journal of Marriage and the Family56 (1994).

 

Hungry for love. "Father hunger" often afflicts boys age one and two whose fathers are suddenly and permanently absent. Sleep disturbances, such as trouble falling asleep, nightmares, and night terrors frequently begin within one to three months after the father leaves home.

Source: Alfred A. Messer, "Boys Father Hunger: The Missing Father Syndrome," Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, January 1989.

 

Disturbing news: Children of never-married mothers are more than twice as likely to have been treated for an emotional or behavioral problem.

Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, National Health Interview Survey, Hyattsille, MD, 1988

 

Poor and in trouble: A 1988 Department of Health and Human Services study found that at every income level except the very highest (over $50,000 a year), children living with never-married mothers were more likely than their counterparts in two-parent families to have been expelled or suspended from school, to display emotional problems, and to engage in antisocial behavior.

Source: James Q. Wilson, "In Loco Parentis: Helping Children When Families Fail Them," The Brookings Review, Fall 1993.

 

Fatherless aggression: In a longitudinal study of 1,197 fourth-grade students, researchers observed "greater levels of aggression in boys from mother-only households than from boys in mother-father households."

Source: N. Vaden-Kierman, N. Ialongo, J. Pearson, and S. Kellam, "Household Family Structure and Children's Aggressive Behavior: A Longitudinal Study of Urban Elementary School Children," Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 23, no. 5 (1995).

 

Act now, pay later: "Children from mother-only families have less of an ability to delay gratification and poorer impulse control (that is, control over anger and sexual gratification.) These children also have a weaker sense of conscience or sense of right and wrong."

Source: E.M. Hetherington and B. Martin, "Family Interaction" in H.C. Quay and J.S. Werry (eds.), Psychopathological Disorders of Childhood. (New York: John Wiley & Sons, 1979)

 

Crazy victims: Eighty percent of adolescents in psychiatric hospitals come from broken homes.

Source: J.B. Elshtain, "Family Matters...", Christian Century, July 1993.

 

Duh to dead: "The economic consequences of a [father's] absence are often accompanied by psychological consequences, which include higher-than-average levels of youth suicide, low intellectual and education performance, and higher-than-average rates of mental illness, violence and drug use."

Source: William Galston, Elaine Kamarck. Progressive Policy Institute. 1993

 

Expelled: Nationally, 15.3 percent of children living with a never-married mother and 10.7 percent of children living with a divorced mother have been expelled or suspended from school, compared to only 4.4 percent of children living with both biological parents.

Source: Debra Dawson, "Family Structure...", Journal of Marriage and Family, No. 53. 1991.

 

Violent rejection: Kids who exhibited violent behavior at school were 11 times as likely not to live with their fathers and six times as likely to have parents who were not married. Boys from families with absent fathers are at higher risk for violent behavior than boys from intact families.

Source: J.L. Sheline (et al.), "Risk Factors...", American Journal of Public Health, No. 84. 1994.

 

That crowd: Children without fathers or with stepfathers were less likely to have friends who think it's important to behave properly in school. They also exhibit more problems with behavior and in achieving goals.

Source: Nicholas Zill, C. W. Nord, "Running in Place," Child Trends, Inc. 1994.

 

Likeliest to succeed: Kids who live with both biological parents at age 14 are significantly more likely to graduate from high school than those kids who live with a single parent, a parent and step-parent, or neither parent.

Source: G.D. Sandefur (et al.), "The Effects of Parental Marital Status...", Social Forces, September 1992.

 

Worse to bad: Children in single-parent families tend to score lower on standardized tests and to receive lower grades in school. Children in single-parent families are nearly twice as likely to drop out of school as children from two-parent families.

Source: J.B. Stedman (et al.), "Dropping Out," Congressional Research Service Report No 88-417. 1988.

 

College odds: Children from disrupted families are 20 percent more unlikely to attend college than kids from intact, two-parent families.

Source: J. Wallerstein, Family Law Quarterly, 20. (Summer 1986)

 

On their own: Kids living in single-parent homes or in step-families report lower educational expectations on the part of their parents, less parental monitoring of school work, and less overall social supervision than children from intact families.

Source: N.M. Astore and S. McLanahan, Americican Sociological Review, No. 56 (1991)

 

Double-risk: Fatherless children -- kids living in homes without a stepfather or without contact with their biological father -- are twice as likely to drop out of school.

Source: U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, Survey on Child Health. (1993)

 

Repeat, repeat: Nationally, 29.7 percent of children living with a never-married mother and 21.5 percent of children living with a divorced mother have repeated at least one grade in school, compared to 11.6 percent of children living with both biological parents.

Source: Debra Dawson, "Family Structure and Children's Well-Being," Journals of Marriage and Family, No. 53. (1991).

 

Underpaid high achievers: Children from low-income, two-parent families outperform students from high-income, single-parent homes. Almost twice as many high achievers come from two-parent homes as one-parent homes.

Source: "One-Parent Families and Their Children;" Charles F. Kettering Foundation (1990).

 

Dadless and dumb: At least one-third of children experiencing a parental separation "demonstrated a significant decline in academic performance" persisting at least three years.

Source: L.M.C. Bisnairs (et al.), American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, no. 60 (1990)

 

Son of Solo: According to a recent study of young, non-custodial fathers who are behind on child support payments, less than half of these men were living with their own father at age 14.

 

Slip-sliding: Among black children between the ages of 6 to 9 years old, black children in mother-only households scored significantly lower on tests of intellectual ability, than black children living with two parents.

Source: Luster and McAdoo, Child Development 65. 1994.

 

Dadless dropouts: After taking into account race, socio-economic status, sex, age and ability, high school students from single-parent households were 1.7 times more likely to drop out than were their corresponding counterparts living with both biological parents.

Source: Ralph McNeal, Sociology of Education 88. 1995.

 

Takes two: Families in which both the child's biological or adoptive parents are present in the household show significantly higher levels of parental involvement in the child's school activities than do mother-only families or step-families.

Source: Zill and Nord, "Running in Place." Child Trends. 1994

 

Con garden: Forty-three percent of prison inmates grew up in a single-parent household -- 39 percent with their mothers, 4 percent with their fathers -- and an additional 14 percent lived in households without either biological parent. Another 14 percent had spent at last part of their childhood in a foster home, agency or other juvenile institution.

Source: US Bureau of Justice Statistics, Survey of State Prison Inmates. 1991

 

Criminal moms, criminal kids: The children of single teenage mothers are more at risk for later criminal behavior. In the case of a teenage mother, the absence of a father also increases the risk of harshness from the mother.

Source: M. Mourash, L. Rucker, Crime and Delinquency 35. 1989.

 

Rearing rapists: Seventy-two percent of adolescent murderers grew up without fathers. Sixty percent of America's rapists grew up the same way.

Source: D. Cornell (et al.), Behavioral Sciences and the Law, 5. 1987. And N. Davidson, "Life Without Father," Policy Review. 1990.

 

Crime and poverty: The proportion of single-parent households in a community predicts its rate of violent crime and burglary, but the community's poverty level does not.

Source: D.A. Smith and G.R. Jarjoura, "Social Structure and Criminal Victimization," Journal of Research in Crime and Delinquency 25. 1988.

 

Marriage matters: Only 13 percent of juvenile delinquents come from families in which the biological mother and father are married to each other. By contract, 33 percent have parents who are either divorced or separated and 44 percent have parents who were never married.

Source: Wisconsin Dept. of Health and Social Services, April 1994.

 

No good time: Compared to boys from intact, two-parent families, teenage boys from disrupted families are not only more likely to be incarcerated for delinquent offenses, but also to manifest worse conduct while incarcerated.

Source: M Eileen Matlock et al., "Family Correlates of Social Skills..." Adolescence 29. 1994.

 

Count 'em: Seventy percent of juveniles in state reform institutions grew up in single- or no-parent situations.

Source: Alan Beck et al., Survey of Youth in Custody, 1987, US Bureau of Justice Statistics, 1988.

 

The Main Thing: The relationship between family structure and crime is so strong that controlling for family configuration erases the relationship between race and crime and between low income and crime. This conclusion shows up time and again in the literature.

Source: E. Kamarck, William Galston, Putting Children First, Progressive Policy Inst. 1990

 

Examples: Teenage fathers are more likely than their childless peers to commit and be convicted of illegal activity, and their offenses are of a more serious nature.

Source: M.A. Pirog-Good, "Teen Father and the Child Support System," in Paternity Establishment, Institute for research on Poverty, Univ. of Wisconsin. 1992.

 

The 'hood The likelihood that a young male will engage in criminal activity doubles if he is raised without a father and triples if he lives in a neighborhood with a high concentration of single-parent families.

Source: A. Anne Hill, June O'Neill, "Underclass Behaviors in the United States," CUNY, Baruch College. 1993

 

Bringing the war back home The odds that a boy born in America in 1974 will be murdered are higher than the odds that a serviceman in World War II would be killed in combat.

Source: US Sen. Phil Gramm, 1995

 

Get ahead at home and at work: Fathers who cared for their children intellectual development and their adolescent's social development were more like to advance in their careers, compared to men who weren't involved in such activities.

Source: J. Snarey, How Fathers Care for the Next Generation.Harvard Univ. Press.

 

Diaper dads: In 1991, about 20 percent of preschool children were cared for by their fathers -- both married and single. In 1988, the number was 15 percent.

Source: M. O'Connell, "Where's Papa? Father's Role in Child Care," Population Reference Bureau. 1993.

 

Without leave: Sixty-three percent of 1500 CEOs and human resource directors said it was not reasonable for a father to take a leave after the birth of a child.

Source: J.H. Pleck, "Family Supportive Employer Policies," Center for research in Women. 1991.

 

Get a job: The number of men who complain that work conflicts with their family responsibilities rose from 12 percent in 1977 to 72 percent in 1989. Meanwhile, 74 percent of men prefer a "daddy track" job to a "fast track" job.

Source: James Levine, The Fatherhood Project.

 

Long-distance dads: Twenty-six percent of absent fathers live in a different state than their children.

Source: US Bureau of the Census, Statistical Brief . 1991.

 

Cool Dad of the Week: Among fathers who maintain contact with their children after a divorce, the pattern of the relationship between father-and-child changes. They begin to behave more like relatives than like parents. Instead of helping with homework, nonresident dads are more likely to take the kids shopping, to the movies, or out to dinner. Instead of providing steady advice and guidance, divorced fathers become "treat dads."

Source: F. Furstenberg, A. Cherlin, Divided Families . Harvard Univ. Press. 1991.

 

Older's not wiser: While 57 percent of unwed dads with kids no older than two visit their children more than once a week, by the time the kid's seven and a half, only 23 percent are in frequent contact with their children.

Source: R. Lerman and Theodora Ooms, Young Unwed Fathers . 1993.

 

Ten years after: Ten years after the breakup of a marriage, more than two-thirds of kids report not having seen their father for a year.

Source: National Commission on Children, Speaking of Kids. 1991.

 

No such address: More than half the kids who don't live with their father have never been in their father's house.

Source: F. Furstenberg, A. Cherlin, Divided Families. Harvard Univ. Press. 1991.

 

Dadless years: About 40 percent of the kids living in fatherless homes haven't seen their dads in a year or more. Of the rest, only one in five sleeps even one night a month at the father's home. And only one in six sees their father once or more per week.

Source: F. Furstenberg, A. Cherlin, Divided Families. Harvard Univ. Press. 1991.

 

Measuring up? According to a 1992 Gallup poll, more than 50 percent of all adults agreed that fathers today spend less time with their kids than their fathers did with them.

Source: Gallup national random sample conducted for the National Center for Fathering, April 1992.

 

Father unknown. Of kids living in single-mom households, 35 percent never see their fathers, and another 24 percent see their fathers less than once a month.

Source: J.A. Selzer, "Children's Contact with Absent Parents," Journal of Marriage and the Family, 50 (1988).

 

Missed contact: In a study of 304 young adults, those whose parents divorced after they left home had significantly less contact with their fathers than adult children who parents remained married. Weekly contact with their children dropped from 78 percent for still-married fathers to 44 percent for divorced fathers.

Source: William Aquilino, "Later Life Parental Divorce and Widowhood," Journal of Marriage and the Family 56. 1994.

 

Commercial breaks: The amount of time a father spends with his child -- one-on-one -- averages less than 10 minutes a day.

Source: J. P. Robinson, et al., "The Rhythm of Everyday Life." Westview Press. 1988

 

High risk: Overall, more than 75 percent of American children are at risk because of paternal deprivation. Even in two-parent homes, fewer than 25 percent of young boys and girls experience an average of at least one hour a day of relatively individualized contact with their fathers.

Source: Henry Biller, "The Father Factor..." a paper based on presentations during meetings with William Galston, Deputy Director, Domestic Policy, Clinton White House, December 1993 and April 1994.

 

Knock, knock: Of children age 5 to 14, 1.6 million return home to houses where there is no adult present.

Source: U.S. Bureau of the Census, "Who's Minding the Kids?" Statistical Brief. April 1994.

 

Who said talk's cheap? Almost 20 percent of sixth- through twelfth-graders have not had a good conversation lasting for at least 10 minutes with at least one of their parents in more than a month.

Source: Peter Benson, "The Troubled Journey." Search Institute. 1993.

 

Justified guilt. A 1990 L.A. Times poll found that 57 percent of all fathers and 55 percent of all mothers feel guilty about not spending enough time with their children.

Source: Lynn Smith and Bob Sipchen, "Two Career Family Dilemma," Los Angeles Times, Aug. 12, 1990.

 

Who are you, mister? In 1965, parents on average spent approximately 30 hours a week with their kids. By 1985, the amount of time had fallen to 17 hours.

Source: William Mattox, "The Parent Trap." Policy Review. Winter, 1991.

 

Waiting Works: Only eight percent of those who finished high school, got married before having a child, and waited until age 20 to have that child were living in poverty in 1992.

Source: William Galston, "Beyond the Murphy Brown Debate." Institute for Family Values. Dec. 10, 1993.

 

[True_Avery]

Ok, I have watched long enough and this thread is really giving me a bad taste in my mouth. It really is hard to tell what is worse, the stereotyping or the fact that so much of these studies that you are using against homosexuals are based on hetrosexual scenereos.

 

Let me put it this way. A lot of my evengelical brethren are very concerned about what kind of care a child would receive in the care of gay adoptive parents. They're scared that the child will suffer harm, and when you're talking about care of children, that's a legitimate concern for anyone--no one wants to see children harmed. What kinds of things would you say to them to allay their fears? Assume that if you're making a sarcastic statement, they're going to be offended and turned off by your message, so your job is to educate and help them understand.

Here's their chief concerns--

As far as I can tell from personal experience, evengelicals hate Gays in the first place (not saying you do) and their distrust of them taking care of children revolves mainly around that.

 

1. The child may be at greater risk for developing homosexuality (and if we're all honest, we'll admit that at this time in history, being homosexual in this society presents some challenges that being straight does not)

I cannot express my feelings on this veiw fully into words because it is simply both incredibly amusing to me and incredibly ignorant to me. Homosexuality is not something you just develop out of abolutely nowhere. You know way before puberty and abuse rarely has anything to do with it. I don't know if this is your personal opinion or not, but abuse, bad parenting, ect have nothing to do with your base sexuality. You have gay friends and they all claim to have been abused. You claim that is a likely probably that nearly all gays were abused, but wont speak out about it. I claim that I have known over a dozen gays in my life and only 1 or 2 of them claim to have been abused, all of them claim to have known even before puberty, and the majority of them actually grew up in homes that fully accepted them.

 

Regarding homosexuality, bi sexuality, etc as a mental illness or condition that develops with time is an outdated ideal and that was thrown out the window by the medical accociations of the world almost 30 years ago.

 

How do you know you are straight? Because you know you are. That is what it feels like. I think you would consider it an insult if I tell you that you being straight, even though you know you were born it for a fact, is a result of your parents being bad to you.

 

2. The child will be missing learning about one gender role (either male or female, depending on gender of gay parents, obviously)

Assuming that a child that grows up with Gay parents will be sheltered to utterly and completely that they don't know Gender roles is a claim that I hear often yet almost never see proof to back up. The kids will still go to school, still interact with other families, still be around other people enough to understand that their parents might be a little out of the norm. But why is that bad? From my experience will all of the people I've met that grow up in Gay families they end up being far more open minded and accepting of others far more often than the kids with a mommy and a daddy who believe it is all a sin or not a "correct" lifestyle.

 

Also, what do you consider to be "Gender Roles"? To me that sounds a little like stereotyping the sexes into certain jobs and areas for a family when it is completely possibly for either sex to do what the other does in a family besides give birth. I might be taking that at face value to much, but saying that each Gender has a role to play in life seems a little wrong.

 

3. The child may become confused about gender roles if a male acts very feminine or a woman acts very masculine

Alright. Then I'll just not have children because I prefer to act more "masculine" than "feminine" shall I? I don't see how either sex acting "more like the other" is a problem in any way beside the fact that men have emotion beaten out of them as they grow up by fathers who want tough boys and other boys who mock boys who dare to show more emotion and femininity than they do. Men acting a little less super macho all the time could do the entire world some good as being more incontact with your emotional and feminine side can help you with women, deal with situations, and mainly just live happier imo. Women acting more masculine could do wonders as well. The "feminine" women nowadays in not much more than a poster girl for men and I would love to see more tomboys running around than girls with high voices and low cut tops.

 

4. Children growing up without fathers are at higher risk for a host of problems (and here's lots of stuff for you, Achilles, if I can get it all in 1 post. )

And how exactly does this apply to Gays at all? Having two men for parents, two father! Don't see a problem there. Having two women? Through my experience I see that one or both usually take a more masculine role and just because it is two women does not mean at all that the child will come out horrible.

 

More for Achilles, but this is some of the concerns about living in a single gender/parent home.

Some stats--a bit old, but I just started looking at some of this and wanted to throw it out there around the campfire, so to speak, for discussion.

More Statistics

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes

85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)

80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes (Source: Criminal Justice & Behavior, Vol 14, p. 403-26, 1978.)

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)

75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God`s Children.)

70% of juveniles in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept 1988)

85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home (Source: Fulton Co. Georgia jail populations, Texas Dept. of Corrections 1992)

 

How many more links would you like, Achilles?

Again... how does this apply to a homosexual home?

 

The info and sites you have are very interesting but it seems to revolve to highly around a hetrosexual home that I fail completely to see how this applies to kids being adopted into homosexual homes. I'd like to point out that growing up with no parents at all is a terrible way to live as you grew up without that special someone to look up to and give you boundaries in life. You can live in a home with two men and have two fathers, live with two women and live just as great, or you can live without either completely like many orphans do nowadays due to the fact so few hetrosexual couples are adopting nowadays because of expenses. These kids need parents, these couples want kids. I don't see any amount of evidence in the world that should keep them from meeting and having a happy family.

 

I know I am probably coming off as hostile right now, but this is a topic that bothers me far too much and far too deeply to be considered as a light hearted debate. I know you'll probably clear up what you said for me and I know I'll probably understand a little more. Be back in a bit

 

EDIT: Sorry about this post if it really did seem overly hostile. I had a bad day, just woke up from a nap, etc. I'm not trying to be mean or anything, if thats the message my quickly typed post got across.

[shamelessposer]

They don't want you to call them bigots, shamelessposer. All that's going to do is turn them off from your message even more. They want you to understand their concerns, and they want you to show them how children benefit, and how you'd address those perceived problems.

 

Quite frankly, I don't care about changing anyone's opinion. If there's a person who has been able to reason him- or herself into believing that there's a group of people somewhere in the world who don't deserve the same civil rights as everyone else, that person is a bigot. This person is not interested in changing their opinion, and I'm unlikely to do it over an internet message board. The best I can do is tell that person that their world-is-flat, photography-steals-my-soul, the-four-humours-are-the-cause-of-all-medical-problems belief system is antiquated and downright wrong. Will this make the person shut up about their wrongheaded beliefs? Maybe. Will it reinforce the siege mentality that causes people to believe this garbage to the point that they'll pack up the whole family and move into the "in case of liberals" shelter? Even better.

 

I am not interested in debating this subject. Debate is for issues that have shades of gray and moral ambiguity.

 

EDIT: But if I was interested in debating I would have pointed out the same fallacies True_Avery did, but in a much less tactful way.

[SilentScope001]

Quite frankly, I don't care about changing anyone's opinion. If there's a person who has been able to reason him- or herself into believing that there's a group of people somewhere in the world who don't deserve the same civil rights as everyone else, that person is a bigot.

 

A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

 

This person is not interested in changing their opinion, and I'm unlikely to do it over an internet message board. The best I can do is tell that person that their world-is-flat, photography-steals-my-soul, the-four-humours-are-the-cause-of-all-medical-problems belief system is antiquated and downright wrong.

 

By being intolerant to Jae, you yourself have done the same crime that you accuse your foes of doing, being intolerant to other opinons, lifestyles or identities. I may disagree with Jae, but I want to know what Jae is saying, and I want to tolerate her viewpoint, instead of dismissing it as totally wrong. Many people have different educational backgrounds, and many people know much more than I do...

 

I am quite upset at this turn of the discussion. Everyone here has some level of intolerance within them (the only difference is in the degrees). Let just supress our hatred of one another, and let us learn to understand that each of us view the world differently.

[shamelessposer]

By being intolerant to Jae, you yourself have done the same crime that you accuse your foes of doing, being intolerant to other opinons, lifestyles or identities.

 

Tolerance is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. "You have the right to swing your arms all you want until you hit me or mine in the face," and all that other stuff. Being intolerant of the intolerant is not a form of bigotry, and you should be wary of anyone who tells you so.

[SilentScope001]

Tolerance is a means to an end, not an end in and of itself. "You have the right to swing your arms all you want until you hit me or mine in the face," and all that other stuff. Being intolerant of the intolerant is not a form of bigotry, and you should be wary of anyone who tells you so.

 

I'm sorry but I disagree. Everyone has a right to their own view, regardless of wheter you agree with it or not. Tolerance exist because without it, people will scream and hurt one another. Tolerance has to be an ends in itself, because it is the only thing that keeps ideologies from killing and harming one another and it is the thing that can help prevent wars and chaos and mayhem. Tolerance is the only thing that keeps the Freedom of Speech alive, and I am a firm defender of it. If people are going to be intolerant, then they are trying to stop other people from speaking their own views, censorsing views they hate like the radicals they claim to oppose, and by doing so, they are disrespecting the spirit of the 1st Amendment.

 

If I can declare myself that it's okay to be intolerant of one side, then I am basically saying that some forms of intolerance is fine. If you say it is okay for you to be intolerant, then why is it not okay for other people to be intolerant? Hypocrisim is bad, very bad.

[Jae Onasi]

shameless, you missed the whole point of my post. In this particular case, I've already clarified my _personal_ feelings a number of times, which in this case is different from the position I'm arguing from. I could argue either side if I wanted, actually, but others have taken the liberal stance so I thought I'd take the conservative, since I understand their objections pretty well. I'm pointing out how evangelicals and other socially conservative people feel. I'm sorry if that rocks your world, but if you really want to make headway in tolerance for gays, you _have_ to address their concerns, and they are legitimate concerns that should not be brushed under the carpet because they make you uncomfortable. You can't just jump on someone who's got concerns and say "You're an intolerant bigot!!" That doesn't help one bit.

 

I am not interested in debating this subject. Debate is for issues that have shades of gray and moral ambiguity.

If you are not interested in debating this subject, then this thread is not for you. This is a discussion forum. If this is upsetting you so much that you cannot contribute here in a positive, meaningful way, then I would recommend ignoring this thread entirely. If you would like to contribute in a positive way, we welcome your comments.

 

EDIT: But if I was interested in debating I would have pointed out the same fallacies True_Avery did, but in a much less tactful way.

I would strongly advise against posting in a less tactful way.

 

Just a general moderator note for everyone: This is one of those subjects that can cause some rancor. Rude, condescending, flaming posts will be deleted/edited per this forum's rule, and if it's really nasty, that person will earn themselves a warning. The goal is to keep it friendly. If you wouldn't talk to your friend that way, don't talk to people here that way, either.

[ET Warrior]

1. The child may be at greater risk for developing homosexuality (and if we're all honest, we'll admit that at this time in history, being homosexual in this society presents some challenges that being straight does not)

So we should be keeping gay children out of straight homes on the chance that they might develop straightness?

 

2. The child will be missing learning about one gender role (either male or female, depending on gender of gay parents, obviously)

Which is different from single parents or orphanages...how?

 

3. The child may become confused about gender roles if a male acts very feminine or a woman acts very masculine

I honestly think that should be a poster reason FOR homosexual adoption. Gender roles are STILL horribly outdated and sexist, and there is no reason for them.

 

4. Children growing up without fathers are at higher risk for a host of problems *long list of problems*

Now, I'm off to bed and work in the morning so I'm not going to look into this in too much detail, but I'm assuming that the VAST majority of those studies are about fatherless heterosexual homes. So is the problem having no father, or is the problem having only one parent? Or potentially having a dead-beat parent who abandoned them when they were young? A lot of those issues you listed seem like they would stem from abandonment or betrayal issues, none of which would arise in a stable homosexual home.

[Jae Onasi]

ET, the questions were for shameless or anyone else to answer as concerns about placing a child with homosexual vs. heterosexual couples. You're not providing answers--you're answering the question with another question.

 

Gender roles--I'm not talking sexist outdated ones. I'm talking healthy ones. Do you think I'd be a doctor if I believed in the 1950's Good Housewife role?

 

We're not androgynous (health issues notwithstanding), feminist attempts to shove us in that mold otherwise. I can't accomplish some of the things Jimbo can and he can't do some of the things I can. Our different hormones do things to our anatomy and physiology that we cannot deny. We do function, act, and in some cases even think in different ways. Fighting the differences rather than working with them and allowing them to be complementary is not working. Instead of denying they exist or having unhealthy sexist attitudes, we need to develop positive roles that account for those differences and similarities and work to maximize our own strengths.

 

The links in question were more in answer to Achilles' posts awhile back that asked how being fatherless affects kids. This is the answer. I don't believe homo or heterosexuality was specified exclusively.

 

The fact that there aren't a lot of studies on this issue, ET, should make us take pause. I would never give a patient a medication just because I thought it was 'right'. I'd research it first before acting and make sure that studies showed that that drop was an effective treatment for that person's condition and had minimal risks.

 

This is one of those situations where I think we need to stop and research how it's going for kids already in homosexual parent families before we go jumping into the situation blindly. This is the first generation since maybe ancient Greece where we're dealing with the issue of homosexual parents on a large scale, and we know nothing about how it's going to affect kids in general over a long period of time. Relationships function differently between gays and straights--it stands to reason that there will be differences in parenting to some degree with its attendant advantages and disadvantages. We've not explored that in significant enough numbers to make me entirely comfortable going with a wholesale blanket recommendation. We have no real clue on what problems they'll face, what things will work easier for them, and how to minimize the former and maximize the latter. I think there are going to be specific challenges unique to gay parenting that needs to be looked at and addressed for the benefit of the child. I'm not ready to give wholehearted approval until I've seen a few studies that fairly address that and show that there is benefit equivalent to straight adoption and risks no higher--and if that happens then I'll be comfortable with the idea. I know that there are plenty of loving gay parents out there. I just want to see how it's going to work for more people, and if there are specific issues, how those are worked out.

[shamelessposer]

You're not providing answers--you're answering the question with another question.

 

But the questions you're asking lack merit. The only evidence you've been able to provide that the questions do have merit is a clump of studies from "family values" organizations that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

 

If you've decided that it's unhealthy for a particular kind of person to raise a child, you're the one with the burden of proof.

[Jae Onasi]

But the questions you're asking lack merit.

Why? You're writing off an entire group of conservatives as nothing more than just bigots, without providing an adequate explanation for applyling that label other than the fact that you don't like that they are uncomfortable around gays.

 

The only evidence you've been able to provide that the questions do have merit is a clump of studies from "family values" organizations that have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

The studies cited may have been listed on some conservative organization sites (and one is a father's rights site, not a 'family values' site), but the studies themselves were done by respected and recognized researchers and published in respected/recognized journals. They are no less valid just because they happened to also be quoted on a more conservative site, just like I don't write off studies quoted on ultra-liberal or ultra-conservative sites. I look at the studies themselves.

If you've decided that it's unhealthy for a particular kind of person to raise a child, you're the one with the burden of proof.

Actually, since you're asserting that homosexual parenting is equally valid as heterosexual parenting, and heterosexual parenting is the norm, the burden of proof is on you to show that homosexual parenting arrangements are as healthy for the child as heterosexual parenting.

 

I provided proof anyway with the studies--it's more difficult for children to learn appropriate male-female interactions in a single parent or single gender couple household. A number of studies show that children do best in a stable, loving, household with both _biological_ parents (note inclusion of all those descriptors). This is the ideal situation and there is little or no disagreement on that among researchers. Are single or gay parent arrangements better than other less-than-ideal heterosexual parenting situations? Sure. Are they the ideal? No. Show me well-run, well-conducted, unbiased studies where children are served equally well in alternative parenting settings and I'll be willing to embrace that. Until then, I'm reserving judgment.

 

I really don't care what the orientation of the parents are. They can be gay, straight, or prickly-pear-cactus-sexual for all I care, as long as it doesn't violate the law or harm someone or something. I want to know what's going to happen to kids, because they don't get to make choices on this, and they are not mature enough to make informed decisions on such matters.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)

[And so on]

Red herring. The studies, as well as the studies in the long article of yours, appear to me to indicate homes where there is only one parent [a single mother], as opposed to two parents [two mothers]. As such, it's not necessarily the lack of a father that's the problem, but the lack of a second parent.

 

1. The child may be at greater risk for developing homosexuality (and if we're all honest, we'll admit that at this time in history, being homosexual in this society presents some challenges that being straight does not)

Even if that was proven true, the kid is still better off with two loving parents than in an orphanage or foster home.

 

Gender roles--I'm not talking sexist outdated ones. I'm talking healthy ones.

I'm skeptical to both 'outdated sexist' gender roles, and 'healthy' ones.

 

Do you think I'd be a doctor if I believed in the 1950's Good Housewife role?

Sigh. Jae, don't make me start about the completely incompetent medical personnel I've had the misfortune to encounter in my life.

 

Actually, since you're asserting that homosexual parenting is equally valid as heterosexual parenting, and heterosexual parenting is the norm, the burden of proof is on you to show that homosexual parenting arrangements are as healthy for the child as heterosexual parenting.

Not necessarily equally valid, but certainly not that bad that it should not be legal.

[Totenkopf]

Not necessarily equally valid, but certainly not that bad that it should not be legal.

 

 

On what do you base your opinion beyond personal prejudices? Just curious.

[Dagobahn Eagle]

I base it on the fact that gay parents and children do not receive much flak, certainly not compared to expectations, and that many or most of the children end up just fine.

 

The correlation between homosexuality and pedophilia has been pointed out, and it does worry me. However, it's not the rate of pedophilia that should be recorded, but the rate of abuse. I don't know about children of gays, but offspring of lesbian mothers have been found to be less likely to be abused than children of a mother and father, and children of lesbian mothers have been found to be more 'socially competent' than children of heterosexual parents. Finally, a study published in the American Journal of Orthopsychiatry states that 'stereotypical' gender roles are intact in girls raised by lesbian mothers. As for 'catching the gay', no studies so far have suggested this to be true.

 

References

1. Study finds gay moms equally-good parents , Canada.com, May 7, 2007.

2. Interviews with Ten-Year-Old Children [of lesbian parents - D. E.], American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, October 2005.

3. Kirkpatrick, Smith, and Roy, Lesbian Mothers and their Children: A Comparative Survey, 51 Am. J. Orthopsychiatry, 545, 551, 1981.

 

A huge thank you to Wikipedia .