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Saber styles perks


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that reminds me. Since we have The Real Kain's permission to use all his stance mods and especially his awesome gunner stance mods when are we going to incorporate them into the mod?

I could do it if you want, but then I'd screw up Ace's frametime stuff.

 

All I need to do *I THINK* is replace our humanoid.gla with his, then add whatever frames he added into our anim.cfg, it should work like that... but I have no idea untill I try it. Just came home from mah jorb and don't think I'll be able to manage finishing anything by tonight but I'm done with my exams n' **** so I'm homefree for the near future.

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It sounds like we need to make design decision as to how Makashi works. It's either by:

1. wearing out their opponent. IE, by not tiring as quickly.

2. catching opponents off-guard using speed and elegance.

 

It's up to you guys, I'm happy with either philosophy.

 

Edit: The Real Kain's whazit?!

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//It sounds like we need to make design decision as to how Makashi works. It's either by:

//1. wearing out their opponent. IE, by not tiring as quickly.

//2. catching opponents off-guard using speed and elegance.

 

I'd take the second one, as I believe, Djemso is supposed to wear out the opponent with heavy hitting already. But I would not restrict Makashi users not to play passively.

 

Also I hope to get a reply on what you think about modifying basic moves' behaviour for some of the styles.

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I'm not really in favor of doing that much since it would make the gameplay inconsistant. I guess it would depend on a case-by-case basis.

 

With your specific previous suggestion (Juyo instant feints) the problem is that the animations aren't really designed for these kinds of transitions. Plus, we'd have to do some hacking because the saber combat system is really designed to only switch animations when the previous one is completed. And I think the biggie would be that the players would be "skipping" animation sets (Like swinging without a windup).

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Well I like Tanqexes ideas too. It keeps alot of the familiar features intact.

 

But doesn't anybody like my ideas?! :'(

I like your staff and dual ideas :)

 

You just need to talk to me on MSN more :(

 

Listen, if Razor Ace can somehow split staff and dual styles into a one-handed counterpart I can take some of Tavion's anims and dual anims to create a makeshift ataru and with some of Desann's poopoo combined with the staff stuff I could make a hell of a shien or niman if you guys want :D

 

First though I think we need to give staff and duals really good benefits since they're so underused already :(

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Edit: The Real Kain's whazit?!

his stance mod's Razor that were alowed to use. since pcgamemods is down yet again it will be a little hard to get them but, i have his e-11 stance mod (gunner), his stance mod v1.4,1.5<--fav and i could host them for you guys
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Yes, please host or link so I can see what you're talking about.

 

As for single saber dual and staff styles playing differently, it might be possible. I'd have to see if the modified "new" styles were worth the effort of hacking everything thou. :)

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I can't wait to see Ataru... Niman was never ever seen, though, but Jari'kai is a subform of it, so the dual stance could be a form VI. This means the 7 forms are complete (with the new coming Ataru), but there is still a problem : staff stance, what the hell is that? Maul used Juyo with his staff... but it's not an obligation for staff... any idea?

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  • 1 month later...

Some feedback for latest post.

 

Shii-cho

when mastered, can be able to cope with other styles. at least as long as facing true master of other, (advanced) style. I think it is pretty well made atm.

 

Makashi

Duelling style, but i dont think it is really for more than 1 opponent.

 

Soresu

Ultra-defensive, nothing add or change

 

Ataru

Shouldn't be implemented to OJP, too hard to make. currently can be somehow mimiced with aggressive, acrobatic soresu.

 

Djem-so

Nothing to add, well said.

 

Niman

Not really used in combat, no reason to implement in OJP.

 

Juyo

sounds good as it is.

 

Jar'Kai

should probably be more expensive but without Niman (which is not needed in OJP)

 

Staff

Agreed.

 

 

Some words about current saber system. I would like to see more levels for every saber form.

Basic practise, 1 point with reduced damage and perks effectiveness and slightly slower speed (possible to make? hard?).

Advanced practise, 2-4 points. current damage and perks

Mastered practise, 8 points. Higher damage when facing opponent who doesn't have mastery of style he is using and level 3 defense. Perks always little bit more effective than currently.

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Some feedback for latest post.

 

Shii-cho

when mastered, can be able to cope with other styles. at least as long as facing true master of other, (advanced) style. I think it is pretty well made atm.

 

Makashi

Duelling style, but i dont think it is really for more than 1 opponent.

 

Soresu

Ultra-defensive, nothing add or change

 

Ataru

Shouldn't be implemented to OJP, too hard to make. currently can be somehow mimiced with aggressive, acrobatic soresu.

 

Djem-so

Nothing to add, well said.

 

Niman

Not really used in combat, no reason to implement in OJP.

 

Juyo

sounds good as it is.

 

Jar'Kai

should probably be more expensive but without Niman (which is not needed in OJP)

 

Staff

Agreed.

 

 

Some words about current saber system. I would like to see more levels for every saber form.

Basic practise, 1 point with reduced damage and perks effectiveness and slightly slower speed (possible to make? hard?).

Advanced practise, 2-4 points. current damage and perks

Mastered practise, 8 points. Higher damage when facing opponent who doesn't have mastery of style he is using and level 3 defense. Perks always little bit more effective than currently.

 

OOPSS you right about Makashi.... ive changed it... but i believe there should only be one level in Shii-Cho... the higher level version of Shii-Cho is Niman. Ive never heard of anyone perfecting the Shii-Cho style,,, as theres nothing to perfect so i must dis agree with you there. It would be 100 times better if we put all the light saber styles instead of removing a few... its unrealistic!! last time i checked this mod is about realism.

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There seems to be lots of good ideas here, but it seems to me that the big MP damage should go to the heavy hitting styles (e.g. Djem-So). Whereas the big DP damage should go to Makashi. This is simply thinking about what MP and DP represent.

 

MP is also called the "balance" meter, when you get too many MP points you go off balance and start to be knocked down etc. DP in contrast are the dodge points, how much more you can dodge and block before you are unable to cope.

 

Makashi is said to be fast, elegant and precise. This seems to be the epitomy of DP damage: fast, precise strikes which are difficult to dodge. High DP for low FP cost, makes Makashi very efficient.

 

Djem-So in contrast is about power, it's about battering your opponent off balance and then exploiting their lack of balance. This seems to me to be the epitomy of MP damage: putting your opponent off balance until they can't take it any more (mishap).

 

Consider how Anakin (Djem-So) beat Count Dooku (Makashi), he just battered him into submission until the count stumbled off balance (mishap) at which point Anakin exploited his weakness.

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There seems to be lots of good ideas here, but it seems to me that the big MP damage should go to the heavy hitting styles (e.g. Djem-So). Whereas the big DP damage should go to Makashi. This is simply thinking about what MP and DP represent.

 

MP is also called the "balance" meter, when you get too many MP points you go off balance and start to be knocked down etc. DP in contrast are the dodge points, how much more you can dodge and block before you are unable to cope.

 

Makashi is said to be fast, elegant and precise. This seems to be the epitomy of DP damage: fast, precise strikes which are difficult to dodge. High DP for low FP cost, makes Makashi very efficient.

 

Djem-So in contrast is about power, it's about battering your opponent off balance and then exploiting their lack of balance. This seems to me to be the epitomy of MP damage: putting your opponent off balance until they can't take it any more (mishap).

 

Consider how Anakin (Djem-So) beat Count Dooku (Makashi), he just battered him into submission until the count stumbled off balance (mishap) at which point Anakin exploited his weakness.

 

Exactly... i don't think Makashi should damage an opponent MP... i think Makashi should have less DP cost for you to block someones attack.. because Makashi is supposed to tire an opponent out by easily blocking attacks as well as fast precise attacks that are very hard to block.. so Makashi should damage DP instead

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Ye it sounds nice, but note that when you parry your mishap goes down very fast. So once you block one or two djemso-your-way blows you're all good, because your dp is ok. Makashi should work that way, even if it's not fully satisfying for 'realisticness' and rp guys; and I'm one of them, too.

If djemso had a perk that one would not get his mp regenerated after parrying djemso blows umm but nah too risky to screw all the balance up, imo.

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Ye it sounds nice, but note that when you parry your mishap goes down very fast. So once you block one or two djemso-your-way blows you're all good, because your dp is ok. Makashi should work that way, even if it's not fully satisfying for 'realisticness' and rp guys; and I'm one of them, too.

If djemso had a perk that one would not get his mp regenerated after parrying djemso blows umm but nah too risky to screw all the balance up, imo.

 

Well of course, but this is simply a matter of balance as I see it. Ultimately it's always DP that kills, mishaps by themselves don't mean anything. However, a mishap presents a big opportunity to get in a hit for really big DP.

 

MP is definitely harder to convert to a kill than DP, not only do you have to cause a mishap (not always easy given how MP regenerates), but you then have to successfully convert that mishap to a DP gain. In contrast a DP bonus is much easier.

 

However, the solution to this could be to make the difference in DP between Makashi and Djem-So much smaller than the difference in MP. For example a 25% DP bonus to Makashi would probably be a big gain, whereas Djem-So might need a 2x (100%) bonus to MP to get the same kind of bonus. Another way would be to increase the DP bonus for hits on a mishap. Ultimately MP could be just as deadly, it's just a question of balancing the numbers.

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I agree with skill perks of all saber combat. I didn't bother looking at all the posts due to limited time, so heres my opinion.

 

Shii-Cho

Pro

-Good vs. Multiple enemies

-Well Rounded

Con

-Basic, unable to use more advanced moves.

 

Makashi

Pro

-Anti-Saber form. Blocks blows and counter attack with ease.

-Great attacks to break through the saberist's defenses

Con

-When faced with blasters you get your butt whooped w/ this style activated

-Not very good vs. sith powers

 

Djem-So

Pro

-Heavy attacks that hit hard and usually kill if they land on the opponent.

-Breaks through defenses like nobody's business

-Swings are fast and strong, so hard to parry.

Con

-Hard to learn and use

-Blocking is pretty much out of the question

-Takes long days of training to move through combat pwning all

 

Sorosu (how do you spell it??)

Pro

-Deflection is this style's bread and butter

-Great for deflecting sith lightning

Con

-Not very good for the offensive

 

Vaapaad (Form VII, not implemented. It rules the saber community)

Pro

-Exellent for everything, the uber form.

-The pros from most styles

Con

-Must master EVERY other style to learn, which requires hours on the server in which time you probably will get your butt kicked.

-Big explosion effects spell trouble for you

-Using those cool force powers is out of the question due to skill points used on all the other forms

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Well, thats just a bit, see what you get from there. Yes, i think vaapaad (mace windu's style) should be implemented becuase its the thing all saberists will want, meaning they will walk the razors edge between sith and jedi. I suggest a g_dissableformVII command or something cuz its so powerfull. on a jedi vs. jedi server its great.

 

 

-TheDestroyer

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Nah TheDestroyer, any style should not be so far superior to others. Player with good skill should win, and not with good style - and I dont mean no ingame skill points. And Juyo is there, already. I dont really agree with plenty of stuff you pointed out. Well. I bet you should bother and check out other posts, I see no need to repeat the stuff already posted.

 

"However, the solution to this could be to make the difference in DP between Makashi and Djem-So much smaller than the difference in MP."

Actually it would be nice to have djemso inflict dangerous mp damage each hit or two. I'm still worried about balance, but I'll leave it to devs now. ^^ The idea is well worth checking out.

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Nah TheDestroyer, any style should not be so far superior to others. Player with good skill should win, and not with good style - and I dont mean no ingame skill points. And Juyo is there, already. I dont really agree with plenty of stuff you pointed out. Well. I bet you should bother and check out other posts, I see no need to repeat the stuff already posted.

 

"However, the solution to this could be to make the difference in DP between Makashi and Djem-So much smaller than the difference in MP."

Actually it would be nice to have djemso inflict dangerous mp damage each hit or two. I'm still worried about balance, but I'll leave it to devs now. ^^ The idea is well worth checking out.

 

No style force power limiting or changing resistances, I think it'll be better if we keep to damage/defense and some kind of random and/or thought out pros that are only useful in either situations or if the user knows how to use the form properly.

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