Pressing political viewpoints on kids in school...

[ET Warrior]

Chances are that many conservatives end up in more lucrative fields like engineering,

Funny, I just got my degree from an engineering college and I'd say well over 80% of the people I knew there were rather liberal in nature.

[Pavlos]

While literature would be a lot harder to find stuff without some leaning one way or the other, things like Math there is absolutely no excuse for something like this.

 

I'm not entirely sure how mathematics has, or could have, been politicised in the USA. Care to enlighten me?

[GarfieldJL]

I'm not entirely sure how mathematics has, or could have, been politicised in the USA. Care to enlighten me?

 

 

Read the links in the first post of the topic...

 

 

Anyways, to comment on the BBC, to be blunt they are extremely left wing and some could even say anti-semetic. The Israelis have called the BBC the english version of Al-Jazeerez.

 

However, my question on the other media outlets is a perfectly reasonable question. This situation believe it or not is news, extremely important news. The Paris Hilton thing, as Bill O'Reilly summed up, basically wasn't important in his mind, the thing that was important was her being sent home because she was having a panic attack... A double standard situation where someone is getting special treatment in the justice system like what Paris was important.

[Totenkopf]

@ET--perhaps you're one of those few, like ChAiNz, that're looking to make an honest buck

 

Still, that 80 % of the people you knew were libs only means that......80% of the peeps you knew were libs.

[ChAiNz.2da]

@GarfieldJL & Pavlos

 

I merged your posts with the other thread. Sorry it took me awhile.. had to find the other thread you were talking about

 

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=179354&page=2&pp=40

[Corinthian]

Ideally, it wouldn't be done, but given the liberal control of nearly all levels of school, especially college, it's sort of ingrained. How do you stop it? I don't know that you can. Combine this with the near-total control of the newspapers and television, and frankly, there's only two ways you can teach a viewpoint other than the Democrat Party Line to your kids. Private Schooling, or Homeschooling. There are obvious problems with both of those: Private schooling is extremely expensive, and homeschooling is highly difficult, given that you've got a parent juggling teaching the kid, running the house, and possibly even holding a job on his or her own.

[GarfieldJL]

Well some schools have recently come under fire being shown on the National News cause they've done some really outrageous things. Particularly Boulder, Colorado comes to mind.

[ET Warrior]

Well some schools have recently come under fire being shown on the National News cause they've done some really outrageous things. Particularly Boulder, Colorado comes to mind.

Care to expand on that statement any? I'm rather curious what Boulder schools have done that has brought them 'under fire'.

 

I suppose I'm mostly curious because I live in Boulder, and haven't heard of any particularly outrageous goings ons as of recent.

 

Still, that 80 % of the people you knew were libs only means that......80% of the peeps you knew were libs.

And your assertion that many conservatives end up in Engineering means that...you're making a random generalization that doesn't really seem to be true.

[GarfieldJL]

Most Ridiculous Item

 

Time now for "The Most Ridiculous Item of the Day." Well, it took almost three months but Boulder, Colorado High School Principal Bud Jenkins has finally apologized for the drug and sex panel at the school, where students were encouraged to use illegal drugs and have indiscriminate sex.

 

You may remember, we had to chase Jenkins around, and he still wouldn't explain the situation. But now he says the assembly was a violation of educational standards.

 

We'll have reaction from Boulder students tomorrow, but the entire thing remains ridiculous.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,284914,00.html

 

Btw, he also aired the tape of what he was talking about. I'm also aware that some students demanded O'Reilly give an apology for making an issue out of it. Personally I think O'Reilly was in the right, and yes I did hear the tape. I'm also well aware that the local media in Boulder tried to cover it up and blame Bill O'Reilly. Though Rocky Mountain News reported the story, apparently the Denver Post did not.

 

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm going to encourage you to have sex, and I'm going to encourage you to use drugs appropriately.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the thing they don't tell you about condoms. If you're lucky enough to get them on, and you still stay hard, it's hard to stay hard. And it doesn't feel as good.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you want to get marijuana in the city of Los Angeles, all you've got to do is go to a doctor who will write you a script. You go to a club.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very natural for young people to experiment with same-sex relationships. Even today, there are psychiatrists who will do sessions under the influence of ecstasy. If I had some, maybe I'd do it with somebody.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, what is healthy sexual behavior? I don't care if it's with men and men, women and women, men and women. Whatever combination you would like to put together.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you're thirteen, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, probably one of the most appropriate sexual behaviors would be masturbation. Masturbate! Please masturbate!

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,282334,00.html

 

That's the transcript from talking points, I'm going to see if I can dig up the actual tape.

 

 

But here's more stuff from same talking points article:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Many of the panelists remarks clearly encourage children to have sexual relations.

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The panel didn't attack one way of thinking, nor one way of action. It simply presented thoughts for students to tuck away for use later in life.

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I found the discussion to be one of the most enlightened I've ever heard.

 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Private education is not an option for our family. We are forced to utilize the public school system. I feel that not only were my children's rights violated, but so were mine.

 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On April 10th, a wonderful thing happened at Boulder High. Then something terrible happened. A group of hysterical, unreasonable and un-American adults decided to spoil it.

 

Led by Bill O'Reilly, who's well practiced at using fear and hate to find villains, even when there might not be any.

 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

 

 

Sorry but I listened to the tape and it was hardly enlightened, there was only one viewpoint shown, it wasn't remotely a debate.

 

 

So this is what I'm referring to in Boulder, Colorado

 

Another talking points after Bill got more information to identify people in the tape.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,277005,00.html

 

 

Some other news agencies, well not sure how good they are but with local media trying to cover up stuff.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55866

 

And Finally Rocky Mountain News

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5539466,00.html

[ET Warrior]

So a high school allowed people who weren't faculty to come in and express a viewpoint to high schoolers (who at this point in their lives should be at the age where they can start making informed decisions about how they want to live their lives) and it is somehow a scandal?

 

I had a group of people come to my high school back in the day and preach to me about how abstinence is the only way to live my life and sex outside of marriage was basically going to kill me. I had to go, why wasn't O'Reilly there all up in arms about this ridiculous viewpoint that I was having forced upon me?

[GarfieldJL]

So a high school allowed people who weren't faculty to come in and express a viewpoint to high schoolers (who at this point in their lives should be at the age where they can start making informed decisions about how they want to live their lives) and it is somehow a scandal?

 

I had a group of people come to my high school back in the day and preach to me about how abstinence is the only way to live my life and sex outside of marriage was basically going to kill me. I had to go, why wasn't O'Reilly there all up in arms about this ridiculous viewpoint that I was having forced upon me?

 

 

ET, how old are you? How long ago has it been since you were in high school? Were you in a public or private school? Additionally, I don't think that's what they actually said when you were in High School. Fact is indiscriminate unprotected sex is very dangerous, you could get an STD for goodness sakes like AIDs for instance. So I'm not sure that what you're saying those people said when you were in High School, is what they actually said. Cause there was a similar speech when I was in high school in Indiana, only it was about the fact that you could contract an STD with indiscriminate sex, and that abstinence was the only way that you basically had a 0% chance of contracting an STD which is actually the truth. Fact is you can get an STD even if you use protection.

 

Top that off, if there is the issue that maybe the girl will get pregnent, sorry but as a guy I think it is irresponsible to have sex with a woman if you aren't prepared for the possibility pregnancy occuring. Seriously, I don't believe abortion is ethical, but I also believe having sex with a woman and getting her pregnent and you aren't ready for the consequences and the responsibility it would take to raise a child is also unethical because you're putting the woman in a pretty bad position.

 

So I didn't find that little talk when I was in highschool about abstinence being a ridiculous viewpoint, I found it to be common sense.

[Totenkopf]

And your assertion that many conservatives end up in Engineering means that...you're making a random generalization that doesn't really seem to be true.

 

Problem w/your statement is that I never QUANTIFIED any number, whereas you attempted to fallaciously suggest that the # of engineering students were predominantly liberal, based merely on you own limited experience. Nice try.

[ET Warrior]

ET, how old are you? How long ago has it been since you were in high school? Were you in a public or private school? Additionally, I don't think that's what they actually said when you were in High School.

It was a public school, and it was ~7 years ago. And you don't think what is what they actually said? That abstinence is the only way to live your life? That premarital sex makes you a rotten person? Because that is what they said. I would know, as I was there. Nobody raised hell, and nobody got up in arms because I was having this extremely conservative viewpoint forced upon me.

 

Fact is indiscriminate unprotected sex is very dangerous,

Fact is a lot of things are very dangerous. Driving is particularly dangerous, as 36% of all teen deaths are vehicle related. source. Yet, I don't see any people complaining about the fact that they teach drivers ed in high school, which is CLEARLY encouraging teenagers to start driving cars.

 

So I didn't find that little talk when I was in highschool about abstinence being a ridiculous viewpoint, I found it to be common sense.

Well of COURSE you didn't think it was ridiculous, because it's the same viewpoint that you yourself have. But not everyone has the same views as you, and if you're going to complain about some views being expressed then it is hypocritical to not complain about all of them.

[GarfieldJL]

However depending on where you live driving is a necessary skill in order for you to have a job. The city bus doesn't go out to where I live for instance.

[Totenkopf]

Well of COURSE you didn't think it was ridiculous, because it's the same viewpoint that you yourself have. But not everyone has the same views as you, and if you're going to complain about some views being expressed then it is hypocritical to not complain about all of them.

 

I don't know whether this statement is merely poorly consructed or just poorly thought out. It's not hypocritical to not complain about some views and not others. However, I would agree that it would be hypocritical to say that nonone can complain about YOUR views, but that you can complain about theirs. The hypocrisy would be in squelching others from lodging similiar complaints.

[ET Warrior]

You are correct, it was very poorly worded.

 

I shall attempt to rephrase.

 

It is hypocritical to cry foul at a liberal viewpoint being presented to high school students while applauding a conservative viewpoint being presented to same students.

[lukeiamyourdad]

Anyways, to comment on the BBC, to be blunt they are extremely left wing and some could even say anti-semetic. The Israelis have called the BBC the english version of Al-Jazeerez.

 

Yeah sure...leftists are anti-semites. And the Israelis and the B'nai Brith thinks everyone is an anti-semite. Saying that a jewish man killed another man is anti-semitic for them...

 

There are conservative teachers out there, but not many simply because it is hard for a conservative to get a degree in Education when they don't have the same ideology of the Professors.

 

I told myself I shouldn't reply to this, but I have to say, I love crazy plot theories.

 

Seriously though, I know that many teachers do grade based on ideological stance. However, there is nothing stopping a student from ''lying on his stance''. He could try to act more ''liberal'' and get good grades, get out of college and forget what he wrote. It could also teach him a thing or two about another point of view, something he might need.

[JediMaster12]

It is hypocritical to cry foul at a liberal viewpoint being presented to high school students while applauding a conservative viewpoint being presented to same students.

I couldn't have said it better. I find it abhorent that both sides of the same story aren't presented with equal consideration. It's like teaching everything from America's point of view of contact with a foreign nation without looking at the other side.

[GarfieldJL]

Yeah sure...leftists are anti-semites. And the Israelis and the B'nai Brith thinks everyone is an anti-semite. Saying that a jewish man killed another man is anti-semitic for them...

 

So you're saying that them jumping up and down claiming that Israel deliberately targetted ambulances in the Israeli/Lebanon War of 2006 when it wasn't true isn't being anti-semitic? Seriously spreading lies about Israel trying to paint them to be monsters when they aren't is in my view anti-semitic.

 

I told myself I shouldn't reply to this, but I have to say, I love crazy plot theories.

 

Excuse me but I do my own research, and I found out about the group Fox News was talking about by finding their own website. I read through what was there and reached my own conclusion, I hardly believe that to be a crazy plot theory.

 

Seriously though, I know that many teachers do grade based on ideological stance. However, there is nothing stopping a student from ''lying on his stance''. He could try to act more ''liberal'' and get good grades, get out of college and forget what he wrote. It could also teach him a thing or two about another point of view, something he might need.

 

I'm well aware of that, but you're saying that student should then have to lie about themselves and their viewpoints just to make the grade. Sorry but in my view someone's political stance shouldn't be a factor in someone's grade, and if a conservative was a teacher and did that there would be an outcry for the conservative to be fired. So if a teacher grades on the basis of whether or not the student is liberal or conservative it is my view that teacher should be fired cause he or she has absolutely no business teaching.

[TK-8252]

So you're saying that them jumping up and down claiming that Israel deliberately targetted ambulances in the Israeli/Lebanon War of 2006 when it wasn't true isn't being anti-semitic? Seriously spreading lies about Israel trying to paint them to be monsters when they aren't is in my view anti-semitic.

 

First of all, you need to learn that there is a HUGE difference between being anti-Jew and being anti-Israel. Not that I'm saying the BBC is anti-Israel.

 

Israel is not a representation of all Jews. Some of the very strictly religious Jews say that Israel is not even supposed to exist right now, according to Jewish scripture. But let's not get into all that.

 

I'm not sure that the BBC ever said that Israel INTENTIONALLY targetted ambulances. Maybe they did, but if so, it makes little difference. Considering that the Israelis were basically just demolishing the entire capital of Lebanon, they were bound to hit a lot of things like... ambulances and hospitals, which they DID HIT. They even hit a UN outpost, remember?

[GarfieldJL]

I'm not sure that the BBC ever said that Israel INTENTIONALLY targetted ambulances. Maybe they did, but if so, it makes little difference. Considering that the Israelis were basically just demolishing the entire capital of Lebanon, they were bound to hit a lot of things like... ambulances and hospitals, which they DID HIT. They even hit a UN outpost, remember?

 

Actually I posted an article somewhere around here commenting about how the BBC did something to that effect. While I'm aware Israel hit a UN outpost, are you aware that Hezbollah was operating in and around that outpost and was firing rockets into Israel from that position.

[SilentScope001]

And this debate over Israel and Lebanon is PROOF why we shouldn't press political viewpoints on kids in school. Do we really want our classrooms to turn into a flame war argument with the teachers and students screaming?

[GarfieldJL]

And this debate over Israel and Lebanon is PROOF why we shouldn't press political viewpoints on kids in school. Do we really want our classrooms to turn into a flame war argument with the teachers and students screaming?

 

 

Last I looked TK-8252 and I were not flaming each other...

[SilentScope001]

I was speaking generally, not specifically. I know right now, it is being handled well, but I have seen similar debates, in the meatspace, get pretty ugly. More importantly, it does become quite hard to do a history lesson when every single "fact" becomes highly contested.

[Nancy Allen``]

And this debate over Israel and Lebanon is PROOF why we shouldn't press political viewpoints on kids in school. Do we really want our classrooms to turn into a flame war argument with the teachers and students screaming?

 

lol, exactly.

 

On Israel, last year I ran a poll on whether or not the Jews should be wiped out to point out the unjustified bigotry and hatred that is expressed towards Israel and the Jews, whether it be anger over them being given land or going further and denying the Holocaust, which to me excuses the actions that took place (and to some extent opposition to Israel's right to existence excuses the terrorist attacks against their country, making them seem more legitimate). With that said however the poll was partially motivated by news coverage backing up news coverage backing up news coverage of Israel targeting civillians in Lebanon. Now whether this was true or simply a tragic case of attacks missing their target the end result really did play into the hands of Hezbollah and those who oppose Israel. It's very much a terrorist philosophy of hiding in a church or mosque, even if they are killed they achieve the larger goal of providing bad publicity, in this case bombing a holy place to get at them. The same as Hezbollah hiding in Lebanon to escape Israeli forces, or at least make them look bad if they did come after them.

 

It is hypocritical to cry foul at a liberal viewpoint being presented to high school students while applauding a conservative viewpoint being presented to same students.

 

 

Would it also be hypocritical to cry foul over a conservative standpoint being presented while at the same time applauding a liberal one? I ask as I see this sort of thing happen all the time, from both sides.