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The Jedi Problem


John Galt
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You'd think they should have. RotS seemed to have disproved this, and further evidence is shown in TSL, Kreia killing the Jedi masters, Atton explaining how easy it was, Revan using assassination droids...okay that last one I can accept they cannot sense robotics but it seems to imply that Jedi are not uber powerful. Certainly we are being shown that they are not as infallible as maybe they were first shown to be.

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It is actually very hard to convey such thing in MMORPGs.

 

First off, in RoTS, the Jedi were caught totally by surprise and were facing battalions of Clone Troopers. No one is denying that they can defeated by huge numbers, but a single Jedi certainly would take down an entire squad.

 

TSL provided evidence of specially trained Jedi killers. This seem to be a tiny sect created by Revan. He spoke of how they used tactics to avoid facing a Jedi face to face. An MMORPG does not allow the things Atton mentioned. Except for gassing them I guess, but even so...I believe HK-47 agreed and used similar tactics due to his similar incapacity to face a Jedi on open ground.

 

At any rate, I still believe disadvantages against certain classes would be an anti-PVP move and would be near impossible to balance.

 

I'm not denying that they can be killed, I'm just saying that they're more powerful then the other non-Force using classes, want it or not.

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I wouldn't say the Jedi were outmatched by numbers, but okay. Maybe Revan and the Exile were exceptional in being able to clear out a room of Sith commandos and the like but it still seems a bit off for the Jedi to be killed so easily if they are so powerful. I'd think they'd have to pick up on something. Then again, Atton did say that Jedi can only scratch the surface or something. Maybe in the stress of battle they miss something like that.

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I say that Jedi should never be a playable class. But for the sake of argument, I propose several methods are made to limit them. 1: There cannot be more than 1000 on a server at one time. Permadeath is enabled for Jedi to allow slots to continually be re-opened. Jedi are more powerful than any other class, but are weak enough to be forced to retreat if faced with worse than 2-1 odds of enemies of equal skill in their classes.

 

Jedi should also need to remain covert outside Republic bases, otherwise they've got Sith Assassin's ambushing them. This will prevent them from running through Mos Eisley in robes having lightsaber duels. Dark Jedi would have the Bounty Hunters Guild after them.

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I say that Jedi should never be a playable class. But for the sake of argument, I propose several methods are made to limit them. 1: There cannot be more than 1000 on a server at one time.

 

I already explained why it doesn't work. The consumer isn't going to pay 15$ a month for a server to force them out of some content because an artificial quota has been filled. You'd have people queuing up to enter the realm with the Jedi class.

 

Permadeath is enabled for Jedi to allow slots to continually be re-opened.

 

Let's say you brought your Jedi from level 1 to 35, spending 45 hours doing so. You've gathered great loot, acquired great skill, achieved many goals. You make a mistake and your character just got killed and permanently deleted. Somebody should pay 15$ a month for that? The days of the old MMORPG grinding and targeting niche markets of players who have the time and stamina to wade through another 45 hours to bring back their character to his/her old level of achievements and not make the mistake they did is over.

 

Then, perhaps I didn't understand you correctly. If you die, you get booted out of the server and have to wait in order to log in as your Jedi character? It brings back the first problem of people having to queue up in order to play a class.

 

Remember people, this is the post-World of Warcraft world: an MMORPG has to be consumer friendly.

 

 

Jedi are more powerful than any other class, but are weak enough to be forced to retreat if faced with worse than 2-1 odds of enemies of equal skill in their classes.

 

 

It makes sense in PvE, but certainly not in PvP.

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I just really really hope there won't be a great deal of obvious level-grind, if the game will be MMO.

 

And I think it would be pretty awesome to stand on the wing of a starfighter, wildly swinging my lightsaber. Just need a space-suit with grav-shoes. I could use the force to knock away torpedoes, and the thrill of any moment being vaporized by giant blaster or ion-bolts would be an added bonus.

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Yes, Jedi should be a class for hardcore players. New players should not be able to just pick up Jedi. Yes, if you screw up, you should lose the character. This makes it so that less people are trying to be Jedi, further reducing their numbers.

 

However, I really don't think Jedi should be present at all.

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Having something like that would require the whole game to be twitch, and I don't think I've ever seen a Twitch-based MMO, except PlanetSide.

 

well, Darkfall looks twitch-based(but I'm not sure) and it promises to be several kinds of awesome. I think a combination of twitch-based and standard RPG would be awesome for a KotOR MMO, using twitch-based stuff for aiming(as an option, traditional lock-on would still be available) and maybe lightsaber deflecting(move saber to position x on the screen to block shots), but stats should still get tied in even in a semi-twitch system. Personally, I think that would be a good way to empower the skilled casual player, but the hardcore marathonners could still get traditional RPG action.

 

I still like having a statistical modifier to represent the force, almost like "luck" in other RPG's, except players with a certain amount of natural force would be able to train as Jedi/Sith or use force-based techniques. I think the innate force stat should be randomized, with each species predilected toward certain ranges of force and certain percentages of jedi-capables. Oh, and hide the force stat, to keep people from creating a bunch of characters really quick so they could always have a jedi.

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John Galt's idea has some merit, altough I rather prefer kicking Jedi out of the player classes.

 

Besides, if you can't grind your way to be Jedi/Sith as John Galt suggest, then you can't really deserve to be a Jedi/Sith. In most MMOs, there are levels. To say, "I want to go and become a Jedi starting right off" is the same as complaining to Blizzard that WoW doesn't start you off at Level 70 and let you have all the fun. You want to get uber-powerful? Then start walking on that treadmill.

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Yes, Jedi should be a class for hardcore players. New players should not be able to just pick up Jedi. Yes, if you screw up, you should lose the character. This makes it so that less people are trying to be Jedi, further reducing their numbers.

 

However, I really don't think Jedi should be present at all.

 

If the Jedi class is restricted, then so is the fan/customer base.

 

In other words...its a money losing strategy.

 

LucasArts is not going to waste their time and money developing a game which will only appeal to hard-core gamers.

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Having something like that would require the whole game to be twitch, and I don't think I've ever seen a Twitch-based MMO, except PlanetSide.

 

Mass Effect I understand will be very much twitch based, kind of a shooter with levelling up. X Men and I think System Shock gave you full control as well.

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I think that it would be a good idea if the setting for this hypothetical mmo was during the Jedi Civil War.

 

This is because both the Jedi and Sith are trying to bolster their ranks inorder to wage war aginst one another. Also this is a period where there are two distinct sides (Republic/Jedi and Sith) in a distinct conflict (Jei Civil War). Unlike in SWG where there is supposed to be a ragtag group of rebels waging guerilla warfare against the Empire. This way there could be numerous players as Jedi without disrupting the setting of the games.

 

And as far as Jedi/Sith being there all powerful beings that they are often portrayed as in the movies, I got the impression when playing K1 and K2 that an experienced Jedi/Sith was just about as hard to kill as an experienced bounty hunter, smuggler, spy, commando etc.

 

In the words of Atton Rand "Jedi aren't that hard to kill, you know." You just need to know how to go about killing them.

I think it'd be the perfect setting, because how much do you know about that period other than what you've heard in KOTOR. There's a lot of possible sub-plots that they could easily come up with!

 

Easy. No Jedi. At all.

 

I'm no MMO expert, but the only MMO I've ever tried out had a lot of "Do this for me, and I'll give you something which you can then use to persuade this other guy to let you do something for him, then he'll give you something that you can use to persuade this next guy to do something for him," or "Kill 14 skeletons, and I'll give you a shiny new potion... I don't really know why I want you to kill exactly 14 skeletons, but... do it anyway." Jedi don't really seem like the type of people to run around like a lab rat doing these random odd-jobs for store owners. I don't really see how they can be implemented realistically.

Well, I see your point, but one of the big lures to Star Wars is of course the Jedi. Without them its like watching an alternate Star Trek Universe. But as a solution, I think that in order to keep Jedi a possibility in the game, your char. should start out a normal non-Jedi, but have the ability to take on a quest to obtain the rank of Jedi class. But the quest should be extremely difficult, if not at least be long and progressively get harder, and could only be available at a certain level like 100 or something.

 

But I still think having Jedi in the game is very important. I mean look at Bounty Hunter and that other game for psp, it ultimately WAS a pretty good game as far as story and ok on gameplay, and I did like Bounty Hunter. But they didn't make as much as other games they've released have.

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I think everyone should have the ability to go jedi infact it should be much in same way in tsl as you got your prestige class of course this time you would become a jedi or a sith.

 

Basicly this is how it would "roll"

 

You start off as a scout, scoundril, or a soldier

 

Thorugh doing different stuff you get experience and evetualy level up at level lets say 15 you get choice this choice would allow you to pick a few different options become a jedi or sith, or continue your path in a newly created set of advanced classes that enhance the basic qualities of the three starter proffesions. Of course you would have to do quite abit of questing to earn the right to be any of these classes.

 

Next at level 30 you would be given a new option this would allow you to become either a advanced jedi class or a elite new created class that reflects even more of the basic three starting classes. Of course like the other choice you would have to do extensive questing to become these.

 

These of course would be balanced and if a person did not want to be a jedi they did not have too also i think that when at the first choice apon choosing to be a jedi or sith after completing the neccessary quests would be weaker at the start then say the advanced classes of the three basic classes. This is think would deter some away as they would be forced to stay out pvp unless they want to die until the leveled some more.

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Great idea! Then we can have the SWG approach where there are 100,000 subscribers and 95,000 are Jedi!

 

While I agree with your sentiment, I just don't see a viable business model that restricts the favorite classes and then forces everyone else to accept cannon fodder status.

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I like your idea John Galt. But wouldn't you feel totally envious if someone else has the potential to become a Jedi whereas you don't?

 

Exactly. That would make people who play Jedi envied, maybe even hated. Much like actual Jedi in the series. Add in the bounties, the difficulty of becoming a jedi, and the war, and maybe people wouldn't want to be Jedi after all...

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Nancy, none of those games are Massively Multiplayer. I don't think any of them even have online functionality.

 

MMORPG? Don't ask me, I only really tried Galaxies and that sucked, but how about a morality metre? Much like KOTOR, you wanna be a Jedi you go and be a Jedi, but the rub is if you go too far to the dark side as some inevitably will the big three will show up and pwn you, for example. Have it work for Sith players as well, if they go light side too mucb have the Emperor kill you with lightning, Vader force choke you, Mara use force currupt to make you do ds acts before killing you or some other cruel fate.

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I think it'd be the perfect setting, because how much do you know about that period other than what you've heard in KOTOR. There's a lot of possible sub-plots that they could easily come up with!

 

Exactly!! In KOTOR, you just get all of Revan's story(which wouldn't even be relevant in an mmo anyways, since nobody would be playing as Revan) and you know that there is a war going on between the Republic and the Sith. There is literaly an infinate amount of story possibilities that could center around the Jedi/Sith/Bounty Hunters/Smugglers etc. of the galaxy during the JCW. And apparently, Bioware is going to gret lengths to revolutionize the implementation of storytelling in their mmo. http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3155486 sounds pretty col if you ask me.

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