Science & Christianity- debate over everything

[Rev7]

You do the same WR.

[ET Warrior]

If you support the 'big-bang' theory, how was all of this matter created? Ect., ect. Please provide us with some proof too.

The conservation of Mass-Energy would indicate that all of this matter-energy has always and will always exist in one form or another. There is no need to suppose that it had to have some sort of beginning. This is difficult to wrap ones head around because we live our lives in a world where everything seems to have a beginning and end, but if we accept that a god created the universe then we have to accept that the laws of physics and the rules of the universe are not constants, and can be broken.

 

every bit of scientific evidence there is and ever will be has an empty hole that only the factor named God can fill.

A fairly typical 'God of the gaps' mentality, if we cannot currently explain it sufficiently then we should simply throw up our arms and say "God did it!".

 

We used to not know how the Sun managed to rise and set everyday, so we said it must have been God's work, and there was no way we'd ever come up with a different explanation. Of course, we now have an explanation. We don't need to invoke God at all to know why the sun rises and sets. There is no reason to suppose that we will never be able to answer the questions that we don't yet fully understand.

[tk102]

Sorry for the detour...

I think that it is the other way around. God created Adam first, then created animals because Adam was...'lonely'... Adam named the animals, animals didn't do the job so God created Eve.

Wrong, Rev. God created Humanity last. Geez. It's the very start of the Bible, would it be THAT hard to look it up?

 

Actually Rev7 nailed it if you look at the second account of creation in Genesis.

 

Genesis 2:6 -- Adam was created first, flora appeared in 2:8, fauna in 2:19 and since there was no suitable companion among them, Eve was created in 2:22.

[Jae Onasi]

The conservation of Mass-Energy would indicate that all of this matter-energy has always and will always exist in one form or another. There is no need to suppose that it had to have some sort of beginning.

That completely ignores Big Bang theory which states that matter, energy, and time all had a beginning when the initial singularity exploded into being, becoming what we know as the universe.

[ET Warrior]

Maybe early stages of the Big Bang theory thought that, but recently because of the discoveries that matter can be created from energy, and in fact be created in what appears to be completely empty space from random electromagnetic oscillations, current theory now posits that matter and energy (mostly energy) were all in existence at the time of the Big Bang, and in fact were in existence for all time before the Big Bang.

 

In fact, the very idea that the Big Bang somehow created mass and energy violates the principle of mass-energy conservation, and I much doubt it's still considered scientifically valid.

[mur'phon]

Evidence of the flood- look at all the ice. that's where it went.

 

Sorry, but that dosen't cut it since you don't need a planet covering flood for that to happen. I'm talking about geological evidence of a flood covering the entire planet at the time humans existed.

 

The crocodiles and alligators: i just am wondering if moses took them on the ark or if they somehow survived the great flood

 

Probably not the answer you are looking for, but the most acepted scientific theory theory that a meteor caused the death of dinosaurs and large creatures, several small animals survived, and evolved into the creatures we have today. That means, no need to survuve a flood in the first place.

 

Including God as a factor, he is an imaginary number a factor that cannot fully be calculated. like Pi.

 

Just curious, what number is used then?

 

it seems my most basic point is impregnable... The Universe cannot and will not exist without God. even though we don't know how God can exist, there is no other explanation besidees that God must exist. God has to exist. If you don't liek it sorry, but every bit of scientific evidence there is and ever will be has an empty hole that only the factor named God can fill.

 

Evidence showing that ET's idea can't be right, and that the universe weren't created by invisible jawas or anything else, would be apreciated.

[El Sitherino]

I think life is one stream of consciousness and we all exist in the mind of one solitary figure with severe multiple personality disorder. Our universe, our world, our lives, our creation of other life are all manifestations in this entity's mind.

 

Prove me wrong.

[Web Rider]

It seems my most basic point is impregnable... The Universe cannot and will not exist without God. even though we don't know how God can exist, there is no other explanation besidees that God must exist. God has to exist. If you don't liek it sorry, but every bit of scientific evidence there is and ever will be has an empty hole that only the factor named God can fill.

 

Due to your lack of infinte knowledge, it can be reasonably assessed that you do not know, nor can you easily find/read/comprehend ALL scientific data that ever has or ever will exist. Due primarily to the two factors of A: you do not know eeverthing. B: you do not have access to this knowledge.

 

Therefore, your claim that God is the ONLY answer, is founded on no factual basis(see: you're lacking of ALL scientific knowledge ever). Therefore, your conclusion that God is the ONLY answer, is WRONG.

 

Why? because you can't claim to know the answer when you don't know the question.

 

The answer to "life, the universe, and everything" could be 42. It's just as probable that 42 created the universe as God did. I bet you that you can't prove me wrong either. Humans didn't invent numbers, they existed in the fundamental structure of the universe. Therefore, you can't prove, without infite knowledge(which you don't have), that 42 did not exist ourside the universe and wield the power to bring a universe into being.

[Tommycat]

Well I USUALLY avoid religious arguments. But, claiming that god is the only answer to an unknown is very much a fallacy. It could be a giant turtle. It could be that the entire life cycle of the galaxy is on a very long repeating cycle of expansion and colapse. It could also be that high energy levels combined with extreme vacuum created the starting particles. If you ask me where this energy came from, I'll ask where did God come from. If one thing can exist outside of time, it is logical that more than one thing can exist outside of time.

 

Proof god does not exist: How about proving to me that ewoks don't really exist? Come on. You cannot prove nor disprove the existence of a mythical creature. You say God exists, I say he doesn't. Provide me with evidence that it exists. Try proving that there are no red striped Zebras. No matter how much evidence you show me, I'll always be able to say that they just haven't been found yet.

 

Evolution: No we did not decend from apes. That has been out the window for quite some time now. We share a common ancestor with apes, but no we are not from apes. The most complete fossil record is the equuis(horses) line. There were even "transitional" fossils found. Granted you'll never see a cross between a bird and a cat, but you shouldn't either. You would see a gradual trend. Like a horse with 2 toes and a horse with one toe mixed in the same herd.

 

Creation of life: Sorry, but the watchmaker theory, is so flawed it hardly makes sense to quote it in its entirety, but lets go with the basics. Things tend to fall in place in a certain order. Positive ions are attracted to negative ions. Things will naturally flow together. God needs not be a part of it.

 

Dinos and people: Hmmm so far the "evidence" for this has been disproven, and only stands if you don't take into account the real evidence in opposition. An example of one of them was the dino tracks in the mud next to the "human" tracks which were actually shown to have been made by a 3 clawed animal, yet the pseudo science sites STILL use that as "PROOF POSITIVE" that people existed with Dino.

[Prime]

God is the only answer to the universe’s creation.

 

Other religions. We can debate that too. I say Christianity is right and every other religion is false. As simple as that, but I can’t prove it totally.

 

[Corinthian]

Sorry for the detour...

 

 

Actually Rev7 nailed it if you look at the second account of creation in Genesis.

 

Genesis 2:6 -- Adam was created first, flora appeared in 2:8, fauna in 2:19 and since there was no suitable companion among them, Eve was created in 2:22.

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

 

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

 

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

 

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

 

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

 

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

Man is mentioned last.

 

Sorry if what I said looked argumentative earlier, Rev, Jae. I didn't intend it that way, but in retrospect it does look rather hostile.

[tk102]

Yeah that's chapter 1, the first account of creation. Take a peek at chapter 2 for the alternative.

[Rogue Nine]

Actually, man is still created after the animals.

 

(All quotes are taken from the New International Version)

Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.

The key word here is had, indicating that God had previously created the animals, then brought them before Adam once He had created him.

 

Of course, this is not to say that the Genesis creation is not without its inconsistencies.

 

Then God said, "Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds." And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning— the third day.

This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.

 

When the LORD God made the earth and the heavens- and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground- the LORD God formed the man [The Hebrew for man (adam) sounds like and may be related to the Hebrew for ground (adamah) it is also the name Adam (see Gen. 2:20)] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

 

Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground—trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

All emphasis is mine.

 

Here, we have two very different accounts of when God created flora. In Chapter 1 it is on the third day, well before the creation of man. Yet in Chapter 2, God creates man first, then creates plants and vegetation.

 

So much for the Bible not contradicting itself, huh?

[tk102]

You could also put the emphasis on the word "Now" rather than "had". If you read it that way starting with 2:18 (...the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."), it suggests that God "had now tried" to create a companion for Adam by creating animals.

 

 

vvv LOL @mimartin

[mimartin]

Yeah that's chapter 1, the first account of creation. Take a peek at chapter 2 for the alternative.

I’d be careful there TK that could be construed as the Bible having contradictions in it.

 

It's hard for me to believe anything without evidence.[/Quote] It is hard to read your post without you properly formatting them, but I gave it a shot. You keep writing that you need evidence, but you also say you are a Christian. Doesn’t being a Christian mean taking certain things on faith? I’m a Christian that believes in science. I also do not have this I’m right everyone else is wrong mentality many Christians have today, and probably always have had. I give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and give unto God what is his. I believe there is no evidence to prove God’s existence and everything about creation will have a scientific explanation. “Blessed are those who have not seen, yet believe.”

 

So either I’m right and God does exist despite the lack of evidence or I’m wrong and all the evidence showing how the world was created without the assistance of a supernatural being points to there being no God.

 

As to saying all religions are wrong accept Christianity I’d really like to see some creditable evidence to that “so-called” fact. Also since there are many different denominations within Christianity, which one of them is correct? I mean according to the Church of Christ only they are getting into heaven, are they correct? The Roman Catholics believe, among other things, that Grace can only be distributed to you by Mary. Does that mean I’m going to Purgatory since I do not believe that? You have implied that Christianity is right, so which denomination within Christianity is right, because they cannot all be correct because of their rules about who can and cannot get into heaven.

[Corinthian]

That's Caesar, Mimartin.

 

Uh...what are you talking about with this "Second Account"? The King James Version is quite different. What version are you quoting from? My version says.

 

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

 

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

 

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

 

4These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

 

5And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.

 

6But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

 

7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

 

9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

 

Nothing about a "Second Account".

[Rogue Nine]

'Second account' refers to the second chapter of Genesis, which, as I've demonstrated, deviates slightly from the first chapter. Going on your version, it seems as if the difference is even more clear cut:

 

And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

 

[...]

 

And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

 

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

In the KJV, Chapter 2 states pretty clearly that animals were made after man.

[tk102]

Wow, that is quite different.

New American Bible

English Standard Version

New International Version

 

See especially the NIV Gen 2:4 "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created..."

 

Goodness, so then two fundamentalists could fundamentally disagree because they adhere to different Bible versions?

 

Cliff notes

[mur'phon]

Anyone know what happened to Achilles? We could use his black belt in bible contradictions:)

[Samuel Dravis]

Universal creation. Factors are too complex and perfect for this to be a random occurrence. The big bang may actually in a sense be true. The bible never said in exactly what form God created the heavens (universe) and the earth. God could have made a big explosion and controlled it to create the desired conditions. Or in some other way. The big bang couldn’t have been formed without something to create it, matter and energy cannot come out of nothing ness, except from God. God is the only answer to the universe’s creation. Every atheist says they’ll eventually find an explanation that disproves God, but have they yet? No. Until they actually do, I guess God is the only possible explanation, and I bet they’ll never find it as long as they don’t stop to consider that a creator might be the only answer to their unresolved equations.

Since you only have two things in your entire post that have anything to do with the some reason to believe in Christianity, these are the only things I will respond to.

 

You've already seen ET's post above about matter and energy, so I'll try something different.

 

Suppose an atheist were to grant that the universe must have come from something. The Big Bang happened, right? It seems reasonable to suppose that it happened because of God. If you look closer, you'll find that this argument has been used before, most famously by Aquinas. However, there's a problem: God is said to have many attributes - he's all-good, all-powerful, all-etc. Why is that a problem? Because, even if we were to say that something created the universe, we have no other information on that "something" other than the fact of creation. In fact, we don't even know if that "something" was intelligent at all.

 

Unless we are prepared to take this on someone's word, I don't think it can be said that this argument proves anything about God. Any number of other things could have started the universe. We simply don't know.

 

I don't really like the anthropic principle but I suppose I had better quote it. "Conditions in the universe are perfect for humans because if they weren't humans wouldn't be around to say they aren't perfect."

 

Evolution in the bible is called adaptation, so the bible actually partially agrees with evolution in the natural selection part of it. How could tens of thousands of very complex species have come forth without a creator? Everyone knows it’s impossible for life to come out of a pool of chemicals. The factors are impossible. But when you think about it, god created man from dust. What if what I’ve just said was false was true, and God was the factor that caused the chemicals in the dust and goo to become life? Who knows? It might be possible that that is the case. People who wrote the bible don’t have the understanding of deciphering it we have today. They didn’t understand science as we did, but we have explanations for what they didn’t understand now. Explanations that may only further prove it.

So abiogenesis is not worked out right now to an extent that includes actual successful experiments. Fine. I'm not sure why you'd say it was completely impossible, however. No one knows that, just as no one knows how many planets there are in the universe for abiogenesis to occur on. Maybe we got lucky. From what I have seen, the "impossible factors" you speak of were based on the spontaneous generation of a modern cell. Since abiogenesis is not about spontaneous generation of modern cells, that's not really an argument against it. You can look at the talk.origins page on this for more information if you are interested.

 

The Roman Catholics believe, among other things, that Grace can only be distributed to you by Mary. Does that mean I’m going to Purgatory since I do not believe that?

This might be a small note, but that's not what they believe. What catholics think of Mary seems to be the victim of widespread misinformation among non-catholics...

[mimartin]

This might be a small note, but that's not what they believe. What catholics think of Mary seems to be the victim of widespread misinformation among non-catholics...

Maybe, but as a child attending the Catholic Church we did pray though Mary's grace. I always remember the line "Mary full of grace." I went to the Catholic Church for Mass on Saturdays the Church of Christ on Wednesday Nights and the Baptist Church on Sundays (day and night). My mother was worried about my immortal soul. Even though I am a member of the Baptist Church today, I do not agree with any one denomination. For all I know the Catholics, the Church of Christ or any other religion might be correct. I just cannot practice some of them in good conscience, that may condemn my soul to hell, but I have to live with myself now.

 

So I meant no offense by giving that example and apologize if it offended anyone that was not my intention. I just wanted to know which Christian faith is correct from Arcesious.

 

Anyone know what happened to Achilles?

He is around, but I hoping he stays away from my post in a religious thread. Achilles already has me questioning everything.

[Web Rider]

Goodness, so then two fundamentalists could fundamentally disagree because they adhere to different Bible versions?

Fundamentally that seems to be the case. Does that really surprise you?

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Wow, that is quite different.

New American Bible

English Standard Version

New International Version

 

See especially the NIV Gen 2:4 "This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created..."

 

Goodness, so then two fundamentalists could fundamentally disagree because they adhere to different Bible versions?

 

Cliff notes

I am actually writing a version of the Bible for that will be distributed in cheap motels that rent rooms by the hour that will feature them being simultaneously created (multi-threaded creation).

[tk102]

I am actually writing a version of the Bible for that will be distributed in cheap motels that rent rooms by the hour that will feature them being simultaneously created (multi-threaded creation).

Multithreaded? I multiprocessed.

sub init() {
 # create in own image;
 my $id = fork;
 if ($id) {

 # I am the Lord thy God
godstuff: {    

     if ((localtime)[6] == 0) {
# rest on Sundays...
	sleep 84400;
     }
     smite_sinners();
     answer_prayers();
     redo godstuff;
   }
 }


 elsif (defined ($id)) {
    # I am a child of God

    my $manhood=fork; # take a rib
    if ($manhood) {
  # I am Adam;
   	  sin(); 
  wait;   # Eve died
  die;    # me too
    }
    else {
       # I am Eve, spawned from Adam;
         sin();
         make_babies();
         get_old();
         die;
    }
 } 
}

[Det. Bart Lasiter]

Multithreaded? I multiprocessed.

...

I used QThread for multi-platform Biblical Creation.

 

#include <qthread.h>
#include "alphaomega.h"
#include "qexistance.h"
#include "qworld.h"
#include "quniverse.h"

class QGod : public QThread {
       protected:
               QExistance existance;
               QWorld     world;
               QUniverse  universe;

public:
               QGod() {
                       existance();
                       world();
                       universe();
               }

	virtual void run() {
		while(!END_OF_DAYS) {
			if(DAY != SUNDAY) {
				for(int i = 0; i < POPULATION; i++) {
					if(humans[i].getStatus() == SINNER) {
						smite(humans[i]);
					} else {
						ignorePrayer(humans[i].getPrayer());
					}
				}
			} else {
				rest(24.0);
			}
		}
		// clean up
		~existance();
		~world();
		~universe();
	}
};

 

I have a QHuman class too but it's still being debugged.