A very Touchy Subject...

[Ravnas]

Personally, I'm Pro-Choice but I think it be better if(Warning, Major Idealistic Idea Here) That We should focus on Making the World a place where that doesn't have to be an option for Women. But if it was an accident then You're Screwed.

[Web Rider]

What in the hell does that have to do with anything? I don't have to drink poison to know that it's gonna kill me. Pain is temporary. Death is forever. That's how it works, Web Rider. How is sacrificing the baby going to help cope with the pain anyway? What, is she going to put the mutilated corpse on an altar and offer it to some God so he will comfort her? Killing the baby isn't going to make anything better, and from what I've heard, it's not unlikely that it'd make it worse.

 

Poison =/= pregnancy for the exact reasons I stated. Not everyone cannot get pregnant, therefore you have NO idea how it will affect a person. Pregnancy and the hormones created by it vary from person to person. Not to mention the fact that first you were horribly violated by another person, and now you have to stress over the fact that you've got their child growing in you. Every moment of that pregnancy is a reminder of what some horrible person did to you.

 

"The innocent speak highly of justice for they have never felt it's wrath."

 

You cannot make a statement presuming to know how something feels if you've never felt it. Have you been raped? Then don't say "it's easy to overcome", have you ever been pregnant? then don't say "it's only nine months."

[Arcesious]

My views of this heavily conflict right now. i believe that a baby has a life the instant it's brain is fully formed and it can move and has a heartbeat. But then the problem is that the mother shouldn't be forced to have the baby after being raped... I understand corinthians veiw completely, but then i understand how it is for the mother to go through that, and at this moment i can't resolve it. My religious percpetion on this matter however is not the problem with why i can't resolve this now.

However, i do believe that abortion is completely wrong when the mother and the father specifically did you know what without a condom, and then decide later to kill the baby when they could have used a condom in the first place to avoid havign to kill a baby's life.

I hoept his thread get's resolved to a good conclusion becasue I can't reslve this in my midn at the moment now.

[Web Rider]

However, i do believe that abortion is completely wrong when the mother and the father specifically did you know what without a condom, and then decide later to kill the baby when they could have used a condom in the first place to avoid havign to kill a baby's life.

 

I generally agree that if two people are fooling around, and neither attempts to use protection, and the girl isn't already on birth control, then "sucks to be them". If they don't want it they can give it up for adoption, but I don't think being idiots entitles them to getting an abortion.

[Corinthian]

That's a logical fallacy, Web Rider. I've never been shot, but I can tell you it would hurt. I never said getting over it would be easy, but it is surmountable, unlike having your skull pierced and your brain sucked through a hose down a drain. I pity the mother, but I don't think murdering her child is going to make anything better. Doesn't the world already have enough misery and death that having legalized death clinics is a bad thing? Every time an abortion is done, that's one more child that will have had it's entire life cut short before it even properly begins. So, tell me, Web Rider, how can you say that being aborted is less cruel than being raped?

[Web Rider]

That's a logical fallacy, Web Rider. I've never been shot, but I can tell you it would hurt.

I'm sure the first time you tell a pregnant woman you know exactly how she feels, she's be totally understanding that a man, who could never be pregnant, thinks he knows what pregnancy is like.

 

I never said getting over it would be easy, but it is surmountable, unlike having your skull pierced and your brain sucked through a hose down a drain. I pity the mother, but I don't think murdering her child is going to make anything better.

Because I'm sure that all the rape victims you've talked to have told you that they'd rather bear the child of somebody who violated them in that manner than have an abortion.

 

Doesn't the world already have enough misery and death that having legalized death clinics is a bad thing? Every time an abortion is done, that's one more child that will have had it's entire life cut short before it even properly begins. So, tell me, Web Rider, how can you say that being aborted is less cruel than being raped?

I don't know, you're the one telling women who've just been raped and are now pregnant that they need to suffer through the next 8-9 months bearing the child of the man who raped them. So you tell me: why do you insist on creating more suffering?

[Corinthian]

Wait. I think it's wrong to wholesale slaughter innocent children, and I'M the one creating more suffering? You've got a screwed up perception of suffering, my friend.

[Web Rider]

Wait. I think it's wrong to wholesale slaughter innocent children, and I'M the one creating more suffering? You've got a screwed up perception of suffering, my friend.

 

I take it a vegetarian? If not, then where do you get off?

 

I don't consider them children, and do not prescribe them rights, same as all other children(who are only granted rights through their parents). In fact, up till about the 6th month, I don't even consider them human. So I justify it the same way I justify eating a steak.

 

It's not human.

[Corinthian]

How can you say they aren't human? They have a human genetic code, and are, thus, human. I mean, DNA is the root of all life, if you have DNA, you are alive, and if you have Human DNA, you are Human.

[Web Rider]

How can you say they aren't human? They have a human genetic code, and are, thus, human. I mean, DNA is the root of all life, if you have DNA, you are alive, and if you have Human DNA, you are Human.

 

My finger has human DNA. I will not be a murderer if I cut it off. A fetus is entirely dependent on the mother for life, in the case of rape, the unwilling host. It is an extension of herself, take it out, it dies. It's not human.

 

"human" is more than simply DNA, otherwise we would have prescribed equal rights to all of humanity long ago. Mental capacity is also a requirement, people with mental disorders are not prescribed an equal lot in life. People with major retardation are barely given rights.

 

Survivability is another. People who cannot survive on their own are generally regarded as less than human. When people look at the man hooked up to a dozen machines to keep him alive, we really don't see that as human. They may have been human, but they have progressed to an inhuman state.

 

 

There is no suffering caused in the abortion of a fetus. Most emotions felt by the mother afterward are remnants of the hormones in her body from the pregnancy, and often happen just the same as when a woman gives birth. The fetus does not feel pain. It does not realize that it is about to die. it doesn't even know it exists. It's no more human than my hand, it couldn't live without me, and therefore I have final say in what happens to it.

 

I attribute these same powers to a woman who's fetus is no more than an extension of herself. She does not suffer from the abortion any more than a mother who gave birth, she didn't want it, and she solved her problem the way she felt was best. The fetus doesn't suffer because it's incapable of doing so. I impose no suffering or pain on anyone that they did not choose themselves.

 

You on the other hand choose to for a woman who was disgustingly violated for reasons of pleasure and power to carry the child as, for at least 9 months a constant reminder of what that rapist did to her.

[Corinthian]

Your finger is a section of a living organism, not another creature altogether. So I'll rephrase. The child is alive because it has UNIQUE DNA. Are you happy now? After all, DNA is big thing that separates animate from inanimate.

 

How do you know the fetus is not aware it's alive? I mean, by that token, we could say that infants aren't alive either, given that we have no evidence of them being aware of them being self-aware. And really, a child doesn't even understand the concept of self-awareness, so maybe he's not self-aware either. You nurture a nest of vipers right there.

 

I take it you think that still-living people in comas should also be put down since they're incapable of caring for themselves? Or is the right to be killed with a pair of scissors reserved for those who haven't had a chance to live yet? And what about children? Most children couldn't fend for themselves.

 

How do you know no suffering is caused in the abortion of the fetus? Did you get aborted, and are now speaking from beyond the grave? That's a totally illogical statement. You're speaking from a perspective you can't possibly understand, and you get after me for suggesting that the pain of death is less than the pain of rape?

 

The woman's suffering is irrelevant. She's going to carry this with her no matter what and killing the baby won't make her life any easier.

[Web Rider]

The woman's suffering is irrelevant. She's going to carry this with her no matter what and killing the baby won't make her life any easier.

 

that's really it then. You value an unborn over a living woman, I value the woman over the unborn(and unwanted).

 

and that's all that really needs to be said.

[Corinthian]

Actually, I value both lives. The difference is, killing the unborn won't help the woman in any appreciable, lasting way and will probably hurt her, too, whereas letting the unborn live may help the woman and is unlikely to do any permanent harm. The woman's suffering is irrelevant not because I don't care, but because she's going to suffer whether the baby lives or dies.

[Web Rider]

Actually, I value both lives. The difference is, killing the unborn won't help the woman in any appreciable, lasting way and will probably hurt her, too, whereas letting the unborn live may help the woman and is unlikely to do any permanent harm. The woman's suffering is irrelevant not because I don't care, but because she's going to suffer whether the baby lives or dies.

 

So MORE suffering is OK because she's already suffering.

 

Here's a situation for you.

Girl is raped. Girl becomes pregnant, child is unwanted, but she plans to go through with it. She has so much stress over it, she miscarries. Now, not only was she raped, but because she didn't have an abortion(which was her decision), she is in for more suffering now over losing a child. Meet my ex-girlfriend, it wasn't my kid, I'm still a virgin, we had broken up and were friends at the time.

 

And you want to FORCE these kinds of situations on women?

 

If you want proof of want stress can do, look it up. I've done it before, it's not pretty.

[Corinthian]

And you think that deliberately killing the baby would have been a better result than the baby accidentally dying?

 

No, I don't want to force this situation on women. However, this is a situation where to a human with a moral compass that points north, there's no comfortable solution. Yes, it's easier, maybe even less traumatic for the woman if she aborts the baby. I won't give that up, but I'll admit there's a possibility. But the most terrible emotional trauma in the world can and has been recovered from. There isn't a therapy that can bring someone back from the dead.

 

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

 

I don't even need to crack a Bible to tell me how evil Abortion is.

[Web Rider]

And you think that deliberately killing the baby would have been a better result than the baby accidentally dying?

yes, because to have done so you would have thought of it as "aborting what somebody forced upon you" whereas when it's lost it's "losing something that was yours."

 

No, I don't want to force this situation on women. However, this is a situation where to a human with a moral compass that points north, there's no comfortable solution. Yes, it's easier, maybe even less traumatic for the woman if she aborts the baby. I won't give that up, but I'll admit there's a possibility. But the most terrible emotional trauma in the world can and has been recovered from. There isn't a therapy that can bring someone back from the dead.

 

I don't even need to crack a Bible to tell me how evil Abortion is.

Hey, here's a shocker, that's all just nice sentiment. Those documents have ZERO legal weight. In fact, to prove this, I submit how people under the age of 18 do not have those rights. Not to mention they aren't even rights. They're just nice sentiment put forth by the founding fathers.

[Corinthian]

*Sigh* I wasn't making a legal statement. Most of the arguments in here have no real standing on anything other than personal opinion, including yours. So basically, your only argument in there is that the Declaration of Independence isn't a legal document, and thus renders my point obsolete. Yeaaah.

 

yes, because to have done so you would have thought of it as "aborting what somebody forced upon you" whereas when it's lost it's "losing something that was yours."

 

Yeah, because there totally aren't, you know, hundreds of stories about women who felt horrible after their abortions, far worse than they did before. Nope, nope. I must have completely imagined those.

[Web Rider]

*Sigh* I wasn't making a legal statement. Most of the arguments in here have no real standing on anything other than personal opinion, including yours. So basically, your only argument in there is that the Declaration of Independence isn't a legal document, and thus renders my point obsolete. Yeaaah.

I was under the impression you were arguing that fetuses were humans and therefore should have the "right" to "life, liberty, and the prusuit of happiness", but we don't technically have that right, so...therein lies my confusion.

 

Yeah, because there totally aren't, you know, hundreds of stories about women who felt horrible after their abortions, far worse than they did before. Nope, nope. I must have completely imagined those.

links? I haven't heard of any myself, so it's news to me.

[Tommycat]

I was under the impression you were arguing that fetuses were humans and therefore should have the "right" to "life, liberty, and the prusuit of happiness", but we don't technically have that right, so...therein lies my confusion.

 

 

links? I haven't heard of any myself, so it's news to me.

Couple of hairs to split. It has been argued successfully that the Declaration and constitution work hand in hand. So technically those rights are there. The constitution was intended to secure those rights.

 

As far as the women feeling worse afterwards, they are out there. Many of them. Pretending they don't exist is about the same as pretending the women who feel no guilt don't exist because there's no quantitative resource gathering those statistics.

[Ray Jones]

I haven't heard of any myself, so it's news to me.

It's not an easy thing for a woman, neither physically, nor psychically.

[Darth InSidious]

...I think you mean "psychologically", Ray?

 

Unless you mean the increased theta-band brainwave emissions during the third trimester...

 

 

[/windu6]

[Salzella]

Personally I am 100% Pro-choice, I don't think it's the right of anyone or any organisation to dictate a childbirth, which should really be the woman's choice alone.

[Corinthian]

Shouldn't it be a joint choice between the mother and her child? I mean, children do have rights.

[MdKnightR]

Before I say anything else, let me remind everyone that I believe that abortion is a medical procedure that should only be performed with the advice of a doctor without government interference.

 

That being said, I find a lot of validity in Corinthian's arguments. No matter how you try to rationalize it, abortion is the ending of a life (or a "potential life" if you prefer). Bottom line, it prevents a human being from living. Abortion is akin to euthanasia of the elderly. Should the courts get involved in it? IMHO no. Doctor-patient relationships should not be infringed upon. If a woman's life is in danger because of a pregnancy, or if a person is terminally ill and wants to partake in doctor-assisted suicide, ultimately it is a medical procedure performed with the advice of a doctor and the consent of the patient.

 

Unfortunately, since the intervention of the government (Roe v. Wade), abortion has become more of a means of birth control than anything else. The mantra has become "You Rape 'em, We Scrape 'em. No Fetus Can Beat Us." And that is just plain wrong.

 

To Web Rider: I can't speak for Corinthian, but for the record, I am a vegetarian with an adopted child. In essence, I have put my money where my mouth is.

[Corinthian]

The thing is, I cannot think of a case where the mother was in serious danger if she went through with the pregnancy, knew it beforehand, and where an abortion would have helped.