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A 'religious problem' I need help with


Arcesious

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I was raised as a Christian by my parents. I have only recently realized the truth in the Athiests' arguments. For my entire life I have been taught in the Christian belief. I used to be incredibly stubborn about my illogical beliefs. Then, as I grew older, and the independence and cognitive understanding I was capable of grew, I began asking questions.

 

I debated for Christianity on many other forums... I always thought of Athiests the way an average religious person always does. But eventually the Athiests' debating started to get through to me. I was first taught in a private, Lutheran school. Now I've been going to a public highschool. I've been debating on here and other forums for awhile, and after starting to look at things from a different angle, the athiest view, and trying to understand where they were coming from, I started seeing the truth; the truth that the athiests had laid out mostly by facts, and not assumtions.

 

So I was 'debating' in a thread about the extinction of dinosaurs on another forum, and the great flood debate came up. I asked for cited evidence of the athiest argument agaisnt the great flood out of curiousity. This website I was given: http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/faqs-youngearth.html ; was pretty convincing about that and other things, and further research on wikipedia and other sites brought me over to seeing how wrong I was. I used to be a pretty strong Christian who knew 'a lot' of scientific back-up for christianity, but sites like this certainly showed me my error.

 

I still believe that there might be a 'god', in one form or another, like a universal equation of immense power, but not a religiously based god.

Well, that's the story about me. Problem is, how do I tell my parents and other Christian friends without them going: "OMG THE DEVIL HAS TAKEN CONTROL OF YOUR THOUGHTS AND YOU'RE SINNING AND YOU'RE NOT THINKING STRAIGHT!!!!!!" ?

 

That's my problem. Whenever I go to church with my parents, they talk about things in the way you'd typically expect of an 'educated Christian'. Educated as in a Christian who knows a lot of that complex theological stuff, and is really stubborn, narrow minded, and has 'strong' faith.

 

Basically I know my parents and other christian friedns well, and I'd know how they'd react. They wouldn't listen to me. They'd only argue with me using circular reasoning, fundamentalism, and logical fallacies, and say I was wrong and cite me all the 'solid' evidence on their own side. I've been fed all kinds of arguments on the Christian side, mostly from sites like Stand to Reason. http://www.str.org/site/PageServer

 

I find all of these religious traditions a waste of my time now that I've realized what I now consider to be the truth. I want them to accept me for what I believe instead of throwing logical fallacies and arguments like 'It takes faith' and 'look at the world around you- it's too complex to be random chance' and 'then what created the big bang' at me.

 

Just the other day, we were driving home from church, and my parents were like 'All this evoluton stuff is wrong.' and 'gays are sinning against God' and 'Athiests are so clueless' and whatnot... And they ask me what I think about it, and to avoid a disasterous confrontation I have to lie and agree with them... I don't want to go on like this forever...

 

I'm not nearly old enough to leave the house and not be under my parent's jurisdiction anymore. I wouldn't be suprised if they grounded me/punished and yelled at me if I told them the truth.

 

Advice as to what I should do would help...

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Sounds like you're in the same boat as if you decided to become Catholic, Jewish or Hindu (etc...). Your parents faith is no longer yours, apparently. I'd say that in the interests of harmony that you deflect such questions while still a dependant. In the meantime, get more education from all angles. The athiests have no more knowledge of where we came from than do peoples of faith. Don't engage your parents and others unless you're prepared to possibly achieve a sort of pariah status. At the same time, be respectful of their right to believe as they will. Afterall, that is what you want from them.

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1. Shouldnt this be in KC?

 

If your parents throw you out, then at least to me they are not behaving as the Jesus of the Gospels would have. I remain a Christian, though my faith is very different to those you describe. I do not know them, so I am unsure as to how they would respond, but call me an idealist I think if your parents love you, they will painfully accept what you think.

 

Personally I have no fear of man, so I always speak my mind; to speak the truth and damn the consequences. However my personal saw on advice is; "Good advice is a statement of fact or question that causes the person to answer their own problem, bad advice is giving your opinion which irrelevant as we are all unique and have different paths to follow."

 

What do you want to do? Who is Jesus most scolding towards in the Gospels? Is it not the religious? What are the pro's and cons of taking action?

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I was In a very similar, in fact the exact same situation as you, when I was around 15 I came to believe what my mother my church and catholic high school were teaching me was not what i wanted to be taught, I just didn't believe in it, Don't get me wrong I had emotional reactions to it before, it's feel good stuff, but as you say, science and non religious thought made more sense to me.

 

Regarding your parents, I hope they will let you live your life your way, my mother was quite good about it.

 

I'd suggest you tell them, as Christian's I hope they will respect your choice and honesty :)

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Arcesious, see my PM. Also, check out Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis, and http://www.rzim.org for a philosophical treatment of Christianity by Dr. Zacharias. If you want the really deep stuff, read Norman Geisler's Apologetics but starting with I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be an Atheist is a good start. There's nothing wrong with going to your parents and saying "I'm really having some trouble with my faith. I'm getting asked questions x, y, and z and I don't have good answers for them." You don't have to be on opposite sides of your parents or lose your entire faith just because you don't agree 100% on a particular topic. I don't agree 100% with some of the people in my church on creation issues, for instance. I happen to think God developed the world using the principles we see in science. He made science, after all--wouldn't He use His own principles to make His creation?

 

Mod note--this is a serious topic. Any comments making fun or crowing about religious/areligious superiority, or offensive comments will be deleted as baiting/spam.

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Wow, Arcesious. I'm kind of proud of you :D I'm glad you've thought these things through without being dogmatic and narrow-minded.

 

I have trouble understanding your problem though, since "coming out" as an atheist/agnostic in Europe is _way_ easier than in the U.S. Especially if your parents and friends are strong believers. My advice is that you give it time, gradually tell them of your views and hopefully they will respect you and accept your views.

 

I wish the best of luck to you. :)

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Maybe you are a Christian, but you are not a Lutheran. When I was growing up in a Catholic geared environment, I believed in everything my parents and religion had said. Once I expanded my knowledge through world history, science, philosophy, and religious history, I began to see the bible in a more worldy manner. According to several resources, (sorry I do not have them available), the great flood was not a unique occurance. Even though I learned this new knowledge, my faith stayed in tacked but by religion was challanged. Its okay to be a Christian and to question everything that religious sects consider doctrine. Keep in mind that there is a difference between religion and faith. I am a Christian and I believe in evolution. Its all about how you interprate the bible.

 

If you are having troubles talking to your parents, they will most likely accept that you have doubts. I am willing to bet that they also have theirs. Sometimes we forms beliefs and logics that contridict our parent's expectations; however, they will care about you whatever your perspectives are. Give them a chance. They may suprise you.

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I'm glad to see that you are considering other points of view, and I honestly feel sorry for you now that you have realized how possibly narrow minded you find your parents.

 

Just the other day, we were driving home from church, and my parents were like 'All this evoluton stuff is wrong.' and 'gays are sinning against God' and 'Athiests are so clueless' and whatnot... And they ask me what I think about it, and to avoid a disasterous confrontation I have to lie and agree with them... I don't want to go on like this forever...
I'd like you to expand your thoughts a little more for a second and have you consider that what you are going through is very similar to what happens to many Gay/Lesbian/Pregnant mothers/Etc people around the world. When you finally get around to full realization, a fear grips you. What will my parents do? What will my friends do? What will people think of me?

 

Parents will take you to counceling, the church, or even beat and/or throw you out of the house. I'm not trying to jab at you, but now that you feel very similar to what many persecuted people feel... I hope you could reconsider some biases and hates you might still hold and open your heart up. I hope you remember this feeling forever, and hold it close.

 

In my opinion, it is one of the biggest steps someone can take in their life... if they hold onto that feeling as a constant reminder. Many people die of old age without ever feeling what you are now.

 

Problem is, how do I tell my parents and other Christian friends without them going: "OMG THE DEVIL HAS TAKEN CONTROL OF YOUR THOUGHTS AND YOU'RE SINNING AND YOU'RE NOT THINKING STRAIGHT!!!!!!" ?
I have experience with this type of problem. Honestly, if you feel you are ready, just tell them. You never know their reaction until you try. If they try and fix you, then you may come to full realization to the type of people your parents are. If they accept you, you may find something else.

 

The comparison may be off a little, but at least coming out as another religion or lack thereof is much easier than most things to come out as. Hell, you could be contemplating telling your parents you're gay. If they disagree, they disagree. But, its better than being a tool for you're parents to work through.

 

As Jae said, don't throw everything away. Try and find your own view of life. If atheism is for you, then it is for you. If an unorthodox christian is for you, then go for it. Build your own life instead of being human clay for your parents, if that's how you feel.

 

Its okay to be a Christian and to question everything that religious sects consider doctrine. Keep in mind that there is a difference between religion and faith. I am a Christian and I believe in evolution. Its all about how you interprate the bible.

QFT

 

Whats the point of life if you don't ask questions?

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Arcesious,

 

I want to start off by mirroring Phoenix' kudos. Too often I think people are afraid to admit when they've changed their minds about something. It took a great deal of courage for you to post the admission like you did and you deserve a pat on the back for that, regardless of what conclusions you eventually come to.

 

Well, that's the story about me. Problem is, how do I tell my parents and other Christian friends without them going: "OMG THE DEVIL HAS TAKEN CONTROL OF YOUR THOUGHTS AND YOU'RE SINNING AND YOU'RE NOT THINKING STRAIGHT!!!!!!" ?
You might not be able to. You know your parents better than any of us, so only know how likely this reaction is. Do you have someone impartial that you can talk to about this (i.e. a school counselor or a mentor)? Sometimes bouncing these thoughts off of people that know everyone involved can help. Hopefully you have really great communication with your parents, as well as parents that are going to love you unconditionally. Unfortunately, this isn't always the case though, and as you fear, your best option might be to say nothing at all for now.

 

Arcesious, see my PM. Also, check out Mere Christianity and The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis, and http://www.rzim.org for a philosophical treatment of Christianity by Dr. Zacharias. If you want the really deep stuff, read Norman Geisler's Apologetics but starting with I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be an Atheist is a good start.
Yes, do this, but also check out The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, The End of Faith or Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, and/or Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell. Read the best that both sides of the argument have to offer then make up your own mind. Don't concern yourself with finding evidence that supports one conclusion or another. Just research with an open mind and go where the arguments lead you.

 

Best of luck, sir!

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Achilles, I'm not directing this at you! :)

 

We have a ton of theism/atheism/deism discussions in Kavar's corner, so if you all want to argue that particular issue, please do so in one of those threads instead of here. That doesn't mean we can't mention sources and such, but keep the theism/atheism issues themselves down to a dull roar (preferably less) here.

 

Let's keep the focus on broaching the difficult subject of a crisis in faith with parents here.

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Yes, do this, but also check out The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, The End of Faith or Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris, and/or Why I Am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell. Read the best that both sides of the argument have to offer then make up your own mind. Don't concern yourself with finding evidence that supports one conclusion or another. Just research with an open mind and go where the arguments lead you.

 

Best of luck, sir!

 

As ever my friend an informative post :)

 

Out of these, I'd personally recommend Why I am not a Christian; Bertrand Russell for me was the most gifted Philosopher of his generation. (Btw Achilles, out of the Copplestone - Russell debate who did you think won?). The God Delusion is always a good and entertaining read.

 

I personally wasn't a fan of The end of Faith by SH, though I think in a Letter to a Christian Nation some interesting and perhaps applicable points are made.

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I'd try writing them a letter or leaving them a note, this way their initial reaction to your new viewpoint will take place before talking to them and they'll have time to process what you're going through, which will increase the chances of being able to discuss what you're feeling without a full-scale argument erupting. Also, as Achilles mentioned, having someone such as a guidance counselor to bounce ideas off of or perhaps even mediate the discussion with your parents would most likely make things go a bit smoother.

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Ah, good Arcwhatever (if you will so excuse me), it is great to see that you have admitted your true beliefs (or rather, your converted ones).

 

I think a sincere heart-to-heart will be the best option. I'm sure your parents must love you, so approach them nice and good and tell them from your heart that there are many things that seem illogical to you in Christianity or religion in general. Debate with them (don't fight/argue, you can never win against your parents) and point out when they go for circular reasoning or topic evasion and such.

 

I wouldn't recommend taking extreme steps, though such as not praying (or at least not pretending to pray) or not going to church and stuff. Look upon it as a social duty than a religious one. Abandon it later when you have more freedom and stuff.

 

I have trouble understanding your problem though, since "coming out" as an atheist/agnostic in Europe is _way_ easier than in the U.S.

From what I can tell, it's pretty much easy anywhere except the US and the Middle-Eastern Muslim states. :xp:

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One thing I can suggest from my experience, as long as you are living with your parents...go with the flow. Humour them, tell them something that will at least get them to back off. Life will never be pleasant in your house if you are always debating/arguing etc. It starts interfering with the rest of your life.

 

I also suggest you go speak to a Counsellor/Teacher/Theologian etc. There are some clever people around here, but getting advice ''from the internet'' lacks something, particularly a responsibility of action(or duty of care) that a trained professional is actually *legally* bound by.

 

Here we are bound by the force and plastic lightsabers :(

 

mtfbwya

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Thanks, the advice helps. I do have an athiest uncle... Maybe I can ask for him to act as a mediator in this situation... But the rest of my family and friends are religious... Also, to note, I take back all of my religiously based opinions I have used in past debates.

I considered posting this in KC, but I didn't think it would be a debate thread, so I posted it in ASC, just to clear that up.

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First, acept my deep and scincere:drop2: With that out of the way, depending on how old you are, you could take a year abroad. It would both help you become more independent, and if you tell them while in a diferent country, they'll have plenty of time to cool off, and a hard time grounding you. Besides, going abroad gives you a "fresh start" regarding friends, and depending on the laws of said country, their lack of power over you can force your parents to acept you for who you are. I'll hopefully be going to Russia this atumn for similar reasons, though in my case it's politics, not faith that is the problem.

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Btw, how old are you (you say you're not nearly old enough yet to be independent, so I was curious)?

 

Well I used to say I was 16 and could drive a car, but... that's not true... I only said that when i first joined so I didn't want to seem like some young teen who wasn't really smart... Since apparently people 16 and up get more respect on here... However the way I debated pretty much should have disproved my age... But I'm actually 15 years old... still a freshman... eheh...

Well at least I'm being honest now... Since I've reached the conlusion that age doesn't nessessarily determine how smart you are...

 

Also, ultimately, my 'logic-based' conclusion of everything was this: I can't believe any one thing because everything is possible.

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Also, ultimately, my 'logic-based' conclusion of everything was this: I can't believe any one thing because everything is possible.

 

Age is irrelevant to anything. How is everything possible? No offence but that seems to be a quite illogical decision. In that while I don't think you can ever rule anything out, I'm 99% sure that gravity exsists, or that I'm 99% sure 2+2=4.

 

I would strongly reccomend reading Descartes; twice in my life (aged 17 and 19) I ahve taken apart everything I beleived, and built back up from there, to assertain what is true, as far as I am able, with biased as removed as I possibly can. Descartes; 'Rules for the Direction of the Mind', 'Discourse on the Method' and especially 'Meditations on First Philosophy' would all proove invaluable reading for you.

 

I have posted this before, however I think this will be of help to you;

 

This is to aid all those who really want to seek the truth, this is my personal way of deciding what is true.

 

I think it would be best to use the quotes which most reflect my thinking and where my reasoning comes from. They are from minds, far more reasoned and intelligent than my own; firstly as a member of the intellegencia I would have to agree with Bertrand Russell that “Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality.” I fully concur with this statement as I believe the search for absolute truths misunderstands the nature of the human mind; there is absolute truth, but can any human ever be in possession of it? All we can really do is seek truth with all our hearts and minds, to constantly test what we believe against facts, to be in a constant state of a reformation of our thought. As such I think it is far better for us to attach a percentage value to how sure we are of things we have investigated. The real question is do you want to seek the truth, or be comfortable in what you believe? If you really want to find the truth read on, if not I would advise you stop reading shortly; I say this because the search for truth can be uncomfortable, it could mean having to throw out an entire set of beliefs you have had for most of your life. Stop reading now, if you would rather believe lies than to search for truth. It is my belief most people don’t really seek truth as they tend to only ever read things which back up pre-existing suppositions; instead of reading both sides of an argument then coming to a reasoned and logical conclusion.

 

Albert Einstein said “The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when he contemplates the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvellous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of this mystery every day. Never lose a holy curiosity.”

 

The philosopher William Godwin said; “I will follow truth wherever she leads.” (I think Plato said something along these lines as well but I couldn’t find the quote). I would concur with Rene Descartes when he said "If you would be a real seeker after truth, it is necessary that at least once in your life you doubt, as far as possible, all things". This quote from Descartes is highly important; as Sherlock Holmes said; "I have no data yet. It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts". If you have already decided on an answer; not matter what evidence is given to the contrary having already decided not on logical grounds; logic will have no impact on your ‘reasoning’. Bertrand Russell pointed out; “If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason to act in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence”. We must find out where our natural biases are, as we will all have them, and indeed what we believe must be what we test most verdantly to make sure we are correct. Here is a great quote from my favourite Philosopher and in my opinion that greatest mind of the last millennia; Nietzsche, he said; “At every step one has to wrestle for truth; one has to surrender for it almost everything to which the heart, to which our love, our trust in life, cling otherwise. That requires greatness of soul: the service of truth is the hardest service. What does it mean, after all, to have integrity in matters of the spirit? That one is severe against one's heart...that one makes of every Yes and No a matter of conscience.”

 

It is my belief that in seeking truth we should work in a somewhat scientific manner that is to say that we should hypothesize then test our hypothesis. The Atheist philosopher David Hume said “A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence”.

I would have to argue that we should always believe what we believe based on the evidence that we have gathered.

 

Now intellectually if we are constantly testing what we believe and as we can never 100% rule something out, this means we should allow others their opinions no matter how illogical they may seem on the small chance we are wrong. Protagoras said; “There are two sides to every question.” Following that I would quote one of the great Greeks; “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” (Aristotle). Bertrand Russell has produce an awesome quote which I have taken from a collection of his essays published as a book 'Why I am not a Christian' “The fundamental difference between the liberal and illiberal outlook is that the former regards all questions as open to discussion and all opinions as open to a greater or less measure of doubt, while the latter holds in advance that certain opinions are absolutely unquestionable, and that no argument against them must be allowed to be heard. What is curious about this position is the belief that if impartial investigation were permitted it would lead men to the wrong conclusion, and that ignorance, therefore, the only safeguard against error. This point of view is one which cannot be accepted by any man who wishes reason rather than prejudice to govern human action.” Personally when teaching I will present both sides of an argument and let the student decide the correct answers for themselves, unless of course I am presented with a polemic, in which case I will respond with a polemic from the contrary position to provoke thought. Nietzsche said "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher regard those who think alike than those who think differently."

 

Perhaps the most important questions are ‘Why are we here?’ and ‘Is there a God’ as the answers to these questions define our existence. Even here to be a seeker of truth I think we should base what we believe on evidence, Nietzsche said; "A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." To often people of religious backgrounds make appeals to emotion and feeling over what is logical deductive reason of the facts. Charles Larson produced a simply wonderful quote; "While spiritual insight or faith is one valid measure in spiritual matters, true spiritual insight never directly contradicts valid intellectual insight or facts in the physical world. Faith may go beyond reason, but does not go against it. It never blatantly contradicts the facts which we perceive with our God-given common sense. Faith and fact point in a single direction. When they do not, something is seriously wrong…A willingness to accept facts as they exist, and to learn to use them to test the views one holds rather than falling back on subjective experience or rationalizations, is the first step towards discovering genuine truth."

 

I wish you luck on your search for truth, and will end with this quote from Rabindranath Tagore; "Truth comes as conqueror only to those who have lost the art of receiving it as friend."

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I'd try writing them a letter or leaving them a note, this way their initial reaction to your new viewpoint will take place before talking to them and they'll have time to process what you're going through, which will increase the chances of being able to discuss what you're feeling without a full-scale argument erupting.

^ Excellent advice.

 

Contrary to what people might think, being an Atheist is hard, and by that I mean a real Atheist, who knows exactly what they are talking about and can deflect most/all theological "truths" with common sense or science or a little of both...I'm sure you know what I mean, as you said you've had discussions with Atheists before.

 

Fundamental Christians will test your patience, a lot, there will be a lot of irrational arguments coming your way, but one thing to keep in mind is: keep it civil, listen and counter the heart of the point they're trying to make...If you're good with words, it'll come easy to you, if not, it'll take some practice, but it's worth it in the end, trust me.

 

I have a Jehova's Witness who comes round almost ever Sunday afternoon or so, and we've had lengthy discussions about Christianity and Atheism and Politics etc...And I always find it interesting as it keeps my mind sharp, sometimes makes me think of things I hadn't heard before and most of all, it's very civil and neither of us are trying to change each other's mind about it, we just try to see and understand each other's opinion, without forcing it on one another.

 

If you could get to that stage with your parents, it would be quite cool, but like I said, any hint of fundamentalism or stubbornness (even on the Atheist side, the phrase "zomg there is no God and anyone who believes that is a stupid sheep" is not going to make you popular, nor does it make one sound smarter ;) ) can ruin most good discussions into irrational shout fests, so if you parents are quite strongly inclined that way, don't hit 'em too strong with it at first, follow the advice jmac wrote and most importantly: keep your cool and your wits, do your research and agree to points where you can't defend yourself in, there will always be a later day...Don't deny everything they say, as they shouldn't do with you :)

 

Jesus' message was one of tolerance, keep that in mind, you've got a strong lead as you've been raised Christian, so you can use Bible quotes and such for any intolerance you receive...and don't be afraid to stick up for other religions or "different" people, like gays and such, no way on Earth does God (if he exists) hate any of his creations, and if he does, he isn't God...That's my two cents on that anyways ;)

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Well I used to say I was 16 and could drive a car, but... that's not true... I only said that when i first joined so I didn't want to seem like some young teen who wasn't really smart... Since apparently people 16 and up get more respect on here... However the way I debated pretty much should have disproved my age... But I'm actually 15 years old... still a freshman... eheh...

Well at least I'm being honest now... Since I've reached the conlusion that age doesn't nessessarily determine how smart you are...

 

Also, ultimately, my 'logic-based' conclusion of everything was this: I can't believe any one thing because everything is possible.

 

A freshman? Been there, done that.

 

Right now I'm a Junior and I remember that I went thru the same predicament during my own freshman year.

I've been raised a Hindu all my life but during my Freshman year, I also started having doubts about its authenticity.

 

All of those prayers that my parents taught me had no meaning whatsoever since they were in another language that I couldn't understand and I began to investigate other religions to satisfy my doubts.

After examining each one, I also came under the sway of Atheism since I was very scientific and easily believable.

 

However, I couldn't tell my parents because I was heavily dependent upon them.

So, I just remained quiet and didn't say anything.

Well, it just so turns out that after a while Atheism didn't appeal to me anymore. I started questioning that line of thought and, before I knew it, I was a Hindu once again.

 

The point of my story is: don't get too hasty and devote urself to one path.

You never know what might happen in the future. In fact, it is also possible that you might end up rejecting atheism.

Therefore, I would advise you to take it slow and think about it. You said your uncle was an athiest, so I suggest you discuss this with him first, before you go and tell your parents.

 

Hope this helped, and good luck man! :)

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Just like an unexamined life isn't worth living, an unexamined faith isn't worth having. Whatever the result, it is better that you weigh your doubts on their own merits and face them. That way, whether you decide you are a Christian, an atheist, or somewhere between, you're much less likely to have regrets at some later date when someone reveals one new fact or arguement that you'd never considered before.

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