The alignment system - Good/Evil and Law/Chaos?

[RedHawke]

Er...what exactly did he have to do with making either game? Did he write the script, or did he do some skinning and modeling?

Re-read my post I added why this is so...

[JCarter426]

So? Gene Rodenberry may have created Star Trek, but that doesn't mean that every single episode of every series shared his original vision. The same applies for any series in which the creator hands the work over to others, including Star Wars.

[Inyri]

Yes, but if Gene Roddenberry decided he wanted to make a claim about that episode that didn't follow his original vision, it would be true because he created Star Trek.

[JCarter426]

That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

 

True but G0-T0 is the exception, he isn't the main part of the story, stopping Nihilus is.

 

Then why doesn't the game end when the player kills Nihilus?

 

Notice the lightside endings are listed as the "canonical' endings for K1 and TSL, this is because of this fact.

 

Not true; K2 doesn't have a canonical ending yet. And even if the ending is happy, that doesn't mean the story was about good vs evil.

[Rogue Nine]

That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

They can't be completely separate, as they still take place within Star Wars. It's not something George Lucas conceived himself, but it's still playing within the universe he created, albeit even longer ago than the Prequel and Original Trilogies.

 

The beautiful thing about the games is that we can each interpret it in our own ways. Some can see the whole good vs evil thing quite clearly, while others are not sure it's so cut and dried like that, especially with a game like the Sith Lords, where alignment isn't so obvious.

[luckyariot]

Well... I agree that this does come down to good vs. evil. But TSL goes about it realistically. Nothing is truely pure good or evil (look at the actions of both the Jedi and the Sith, especially concerning the Exile and Revan, and neither are really something you want to admire), and in the end, the judgements made upon the characters' morality are based on your own interpretation. I like that, because the first game only touched over this slightly, and it makes situations seem more real and in-depth (if only they had finished... )

 

However, no reason you can't apply the Chaos/Law theory, as long as you keep-in-mind that, like the good and evil labels, there are variables. Examples...

 

HK: Chaos-Evil, don't get me wrong; this is quite obvious. But remember that HK was made to be a killer, so it seems likely he was programmed this way, or even developed that rationale to funtion properly, like humans do. And, although he definitely enjoyed this job, it is notable how he views his kills as art, saying it is about "finesse, function" and "not body-count". Also note that, as a droid, he has little free will and cannot be truely held accountable for the acts he committed, as long as his master had given the orders, or his programming interpretted it that way.

 

We were created as a way of enforcing a certain galactic view of our masters, of imposing our masters' will upon the galaxy, through extermination of other organics. It is not our choice who we kill and it was not our choice to determine if we could sacrifice ourselves in the persuit of our mission.

Interesting self-analysis, no?

 

Canderous: Between Law and Chaos/Neutral, this is much more difficult to judge, given how Canderous developed during the game, but my guess is that this is how he would stand at the end of the second game. It is clear that Canderous is not a blood-thirsty person, but as a Mandalorian, battles are his life. As a military commander, he had to make nessisary sacrifices and attack unarmed worlds, culture and strategy demanding it. But he also respected his opponents (like Revan and the Exile), and didn't hold grudges like the 'lighter' characters.

 

I've killed many people. I can't say I'm proud of it, but I have. Criminals, competitors, businessmen, police… women, children…

Canderous is tough to judge because he is pretty down-to-earth, realistic. He isn't sentimental or blood-thirsty, but he does what he needs to do, for himself and his people. Overall, I would say he makes choices that many real people would make.

 

Anyone able to judge Visas? She's difficult, and it was only when I faced Nihilus that I was sure she was on the Exile's side.

[RedHawke]

That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

I have already answered you on this, simply regurgitating the same argument over and over doesn't change the facts.

 

While the EU may be completely seperate, it still has to follow the guidelines he sets forth and Lucas Licencing enforces.

 

Then why doesn't the game end when the player kills Nihilus?

Actually, the game is called The Sith Lords (Note the S at the end), Nihilus' destruction is paramount for the galaxies survival. But, Kreia and her pawn Sion also need to be delt with.

 

Not true; K2 doesn't have a canonical ending yet. And even if the ending is happy, that doesn't mean the story was about good vs evil.

Unfortunately you show your ignorance here... both games have 'canonical endings' for KotOR I Male Lightsided Revan and TSL is Female Lightsided Exile. This is a fact.

[JCarter426]

Unfortunately you show your ignorance here... both games have 'canonical endings' for KotOR I Male Lightsided Revan and TSL is Female Lightsided Exile. This is a fact.

 

"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here

[Shem]

Why are random statements by George Lucas taken as fact by so many people?

:lol:

 

I hope you realize that anything said about Star Wars by Lucas is fact based on the fact that he created it, he controls it. His will is law when it comes to Star Wars. He's the king, the dictator, the emperor, etc, when it comes to the Star Wars universe. Anything he says is law according when it comes to Star Wars. Anybody who argues what Lucas says has lost the argument as soon as the argument presented left their mouth.

[TKA-001]

I guess that means the Invisible Hand is a Star Destroyer.

[adamqd]

I know what your sayin TKA

 

George IS the be all and end all of Star Wars, but if he turns round and says that the invisible hand is a Star Destroyer then so be it, but two weeks later an official guide to ships comes out and it states that the invisible hand is in fact a Providence-class carrier/destroyer, then it is, because, by his own word he has given Lucas Licensing Dominion over the EU, (That includes Film related novels, incredible cross sections etc) therefore by having the official Logo it has been passed by Lucas, whether or not he'll bring something out to ret-conn that fact is his prerogative so yes, he is the ultimate Master, but it's not that cut n' dry.

 

Regarding K2, I think K2 isn't really about Good and Evil, but that's because it's a bit self indulgent and strays from Star Wars/its predecessor.

[Da_man]

That still doesn't mean that the games have to be about good vs evil just because they take place in the Star Wars universe--in fact, they don't even take place in George Lucas' universe, as he considers the EU to be completely separate from the movies.

 

Who says it has to be either good or evil, it iss completely possible to be neutral, though you will inevitably be somewhat light- or dark-sided. ANd for the Chaos/law thing, they have to exist in balance, or the whole system collapses. In terms of the government, too much law and order, the people under you rebel. Too much Chaos, and nothing goes right, and again people rebel. Notice how both end the same. It's like Malcolm's Chaos Theory in Jurassic Park, there is a point where everthing is in balance, and everywhere else, it is utter destruction.

[SilentScope001]

Guys, Star Wars is about Good/Evil. Therefore, so is TSL.

 

Problem is, however, is that it gets inverted. Good is Evil. Evil is Good. The evil guys like Kreia and Revan (both DS) gains more support than the good guys represented by the Jedi Council and Atris (all of whom were LS). It's not at all 'realistic', would you really bow down to Saddam Hussien if you realize he was oppressing his own nation and expanding the Iraq empire in order to protect the Earth from an invasion by aliens? It's just a twisted version.

[luckyariot]

It's not at all 'realistic', would you really bow down to Saddam Hussien if you realize he was oppressing his own nation and expanding the Iraq empire in order to protect the Earth from an invasion by aliens? It's just a twisted version.

 

...Actually it is realistic, since by your logic, there is only one point of view and Saddam Hussien's supporters all are evil and know it (or idoits/crazy). That is simply not true. Many good people think that causes like Hussien's are good ones. You will be hard-pressed to find many people who seriously think they are working for an evil cause and are alright with that, even the greedy ones have a problem with it.

 

Yes, Star Wars is about good vs. evil, but what that means is objective. There are different points of view and nothing is set in stone. Many people thought Revan was going the right way when he attacked the Republic, just look at Atton's dialouge and you'll see he didn't consider the Sith evil at first. The troops thought of the Jedi and the Council as evil, and not without reason.

 

Look at Atris! I wouldn't qualify her as good: manipulative and holding grudges, even before her fall... And I was horrified at what the Jedi tried to do to the Exile at the end of TSL, not to mention using Revan as a mind-slave...(don't care if I'm LS, that is something to be upset about) The Jedi Covenant is a pretty good example too-they aren't nessisarily evil (as a group) but they were pretty scary...

 

Oh, and many people would bow down to a despot and adopt their ideas, if they thought he/she might win. The Nazis. Austria. Hungary. Poland. Half of France. World War II. Look it up.

[TKA-001]

Look at Atris! I wouldn't qualify her as good: manipulative and holding grudges, even before her fall...

Before? When?

 

And I was horrified at what the Jedi tried to do to the Exile at the end of TSL

Seems perfectly logical to me, since the Exile is the one responsible for setting off the MSG, causing this wound in the force stuff to hit the fan, killing hundreds across the planets of the game, and of course drawing the Council and the Sith to the same spot, which led to their certain deaths. What the hell were they supposed to do? Seems to me that their mistake was in not neutralizing the Exile sooner.

 

not to mention using Revan as a mind-slave...(don't care if I'm LS, that is something to be upset about)

Again, what course of action would have been better? You're just being biased due to the fact that the player is Revan.

 

The Jedi Covenant is a pretty good example too-they aren't nessisarily evil (as a group) but they were pretty scary...

Actually, they were evil, considering the fact that the Padawan Massacre at Taris somewhat damages their record, not to mention the severe tempers its members demonstrated. To say that they were Jedi at all is on the same level of rot as claiming that the Dark Jedi of the Hundred Year Darkness (circa 7,003 BBY) or (more recently) the Exile were Jedi, simply because they thought they were doing the right thing.

[Miles Edgeworth]

"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here

 

Except of course, The New Essential Chronology pretty much confirmed the lightside ending as canon.

[Salzella]

Before? When?

Most notably in the recording of the Council at the Exile's trial, where she tries to punish the Exile for what she sees as her (Exile's) failings and fall, and has to be warned by (I think) Zez-Kai Ell not to let her anger at Revan overrule her rational judgement, or something along those lines. Put simply, she was not acting Masterly, if that's a word.

[TKA-001]

"No. We've avoided anything concrete about the canon ending. The only reason why we decided on a canon gender for the Revan and the exile was out of editorial necessity." --Leland Chee, here

I must admit, it is pretty funny how he knowingly, deliberately, and blatantly contradicts his own canon sources, which directly state something which is opposed only by his word and his mythical "Holocron database".

[JCarter426]

Except of course, The New Essential Chronology pretty much confirmed the lightside ending as canon.

 

Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.

 

I must admit, it is pretty funny how he knowingly, deliberately, and blatantly contradicts his own canon sources, which directly state something which is opposed only by his word and his mythical "Holocron database".

 

That's his job. That's what they pay him to do, to contradict sources that are wrong. All retcons contradict one source or another. And again, NEGD doesn't actually establish the Exile as light sided.

[luckyariot]

Wasn't NEC; was NEGD. And it doesn't, either, since what happens in the HK factory has nothing to do with the Exile's alignment.

 

But the guide also calls the Exile a heroine. Therefore, LSF. (shrugs)

Actually, they were evil, considering the fact that the Padawan Massacre at Taris somewhat damages their record, not to mention the severe tempers its members demonstrated. To say that they were Jedi at all is on the same level of rot as claiming that the Dark Jedi of the Hundred Year Darkness (circa 7,003 BBY) or (more recently) the Exile were Jedi, simply because they thought they were doing the right thing.

Once again, its tough to find a group that didn't think that what they were doing was right, Jedi-Sith and everything in-between. I was tying to say that the Convenant itself was not evil, but many of its members are getting there. The Padawan Massacre of Taris was a stupid and hasty move that would definitely qualify as evil-but the organization being evil is what I was arguing against. Clearly Haazen wasn't happy about their actions and some of the masters themselves feel guilty. (seen in Raana's nightmare's, etc.)

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a more pure evil would be when the person stops caring about the morality of their actions, instead of needing to find a way to convince themselves and others that it is the right thing to do.

[JCarter426]

But the guide also calls the Exile a heroine. Therefore, LSF. (shrugs)

 

She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos. One of the reasons that K2 isn't about good vs evil; whether the Exile is good or evil doesn't make a difference in the long run.

[Gurges-Ahter]

She was a heroine during the Mandalorian Wars, was she not? And even a DS Exile is heroic during the final battle at Telos. One of the reasons that K2 isn't about good vs evil; whether the Exile is good or evil doesn't make a difference in the long run.

 

It doesn't make much of a difference on the outcome of the game, but it makes a huge difference to the person playing the Exile.

[JCarter426]

Well, yes. But notice that the Exile's alignment does not have any major affect on the ending of the game; Nihilus, Sion, and Kreia all still die, and the Republic is saved.

[Gurges-Ahter]

I agree with that statement; that the Exile's alignment does not affect the outcome of the game. However, I believe that's a different statement than "the game is not about good/evil (ls/ds)", since the person playing the game is greatly affected by the Exile's alignment.

[JCarter426]

I see your point. However, I still wouldn't say that it's about good vs evil, since good and evil don't really fight, and neither one wins. Yes, if the Exile is LS she kills the DS Nihilus, but that's not the final battle; the final battle is between Kreia and the Exile. And while Kreia may be a backstabbing, conniving old hag, she's not a metaphor for evil.

 

So, I guess my point is that while the Exile may be a metaphor for good or evil, that doesn't necessarily mean that the game is about good vs evil, because the Exile has a diverse group of enemies, none of which are true representations of good or evil.

 

The game is really about the Exile making a choice, not which choice he or she makes.