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The Great Tribulation? Very Controversal and The Second Coming of Christ (merged)


Arcesious

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I've been hearing a lot lately from many of the people I know in real life that they think the Great Tribulation, (prophecied in the Bible) is going to happen soon. All of the people I go to church with think Obama might be the Antichrist... This is a really delecate thing to discuss with them. I tend to say 'It's pure speculation' when trying to disprove it... The world is in a pretty big mess, but these kinds of ideas are rather... Disturbing. I've heard them all my life of course, so I pretty much know all about how this prophecy works. I thought this would be interesting to disucuss. We've been talking about aliens and UFOs already, and this particular prophecy is peaking my interest due to the amount of people who beleive it. The whole 666, rapture, antichrist, new world order, tribulation, etc, etc thing is a rather controversal, delicate thing to talk about with the religious.

 

Your thoughts on this? I don't know a lot of the smaller details on this, and I though it would be interesting to discuss.

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I'm not a 'believer', so I can't really say whether the rapture is going to come or not, but I doubt it will.

 

As for Senator Obama being the antichrist, I doubt that as well. I don't know about what church you go to, but could it possibly be a race issue?

 

And, it's been my observation that a lot of American christians seem to support the Republican party. Maybe that's another reason?

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I'm a pre-millenialist so the rapture is supposed to come prior to the tribulation, so I don't think the Tribulation has happened yet. A lot of people speculated in the 70's that Kissinger was the Antichrist, too. Obama doesn't meet the criteria set down in Revelation for the Antichrist--check Revelation for more details. This is a part of the Bible I've studied with some interest--feel free to PM me with any questions if you don't want to post them here.

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reminds me of a line in this song I like:

"In the year 7510, if God's a commin he oughta make it by then..."

 

Really, people have thought the rapture was coming "next year", "in a decade", "within the century" for ages. And people have named a variety of high-name figures they don't like the anti-christ. So far, no rapture, no anti-christ. Unless none of us made it in the rapture and we didn't notice it happen.

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Your thoughts on this?
Superstitions...that scene looks like it comes straight out from the middle ages...you'd think world would have evolved a bit more... *sigh* I guess people will never change...or "the more it changes the more it remains the same" (I hope that makes sense in English).

 

Obama's not the antichrist, but he's certainly anti-american...

huh?

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Obama's not the antichrist, but he's certainly anti-american...
Could you please help me understand what this means?

 

I'm a pre-millenialist so the rapture is supposed to come prior to the tribulation, so I don't think the Tribulation has happened yet.
According to your beliefs anyway. I'm sure that other beliefs say the opposite while others might think the whole thing is rather silly. :)

 

Really, people have thought the rapture was coming "next year", "in a decade", "within the century" for ages. And people have named a variety of high-name figures they don't like the anti-christ. So far, no rapture, no anti-christ. Unless none of us made it in the rapture and we didn't notice it happen.
Indeed. I guess when you have a religion based on apocalyptic teachings put forth by apocalyptic prophets that lionize apocalyptic figures, the cool thing to do is look forward to the apocalypse :D
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Achilles: I guess you could call it both a religious and political thread. I'd like to know how to convince people that Obama isn't the so-called antichrist. Although I'd expect a discussion of theological research is what this will turn out to be.

 

Jae: What are exact criteria for a person to be the antichrist? That's what really interests me... And yes, my church beleives in pre-trib rapture.

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I'd like to know how to convince people that Obama isn't the so-called antichrist.
People that draw conclusions without evidence aren't likely to change their minds regardless of what arguments you use. Beliefs tend to be resistant to reason by their very nature and the more strongly the belief is held, the stronger the resistance is as well.

 

Case in point: I heard a woman chide Obama for renouncing his islamic beliefs in order to become a christian for the election. When it was pointed out that Obama isn't muslim and has been a christian for more than 20 years, she simply ignored the point and continued on as though her position was infallible. Unfortunately people use this kind of thinking all the time and there's very little anyone can do about it.

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Yeah... I've had enough of dealing logical error... You probably remember that long post I made in the TGA about why peopel beleive what they beleive... I'm afraid that 'unintentional' prejudice is the true ruler of humanity, and always has been.

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Nah, he's out now....

 

tony-blair.jpg

 

:lol:

 

People that draw conclusions without evidence aren't likely to change their minds regardless of what arguments you use. Beliefs tend to be resistant to reason by their very nature and the more strongly the belief is held, the stronger the resistance is as well.

 

I think, Arc, that Achilles' advice here is pretty sound. I would avoid trying to convince people of that, time will have a way of doing that itself (or even not, depending on the person).

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Many problems of the world basically boil down to people trying to force their views onto others via force. The kind of people who do this are not the kind of people who will re-evaluate what they think to see if they are wrong.

 

I've quoted it a few times in forum, but it is a quote I like, and think it true;

 

“The fundamental difference between the liberal and illiberal outlook is that the former regards all questions as open to discussion and all opinions as open to a greater or less measure of doubt, while the latter holds in advance that certain opinions are absolutely unquestionable, and that no argument against them must be allowed to be heard. What is curious about this position is the belief that if impartial investigation were permitted it would lead men to the wrong conclusion, and that ignorance, therefore, the only safeguard against error. This point of view is one which cannot be accepted by any man who wishes reason rather than prejudice to govern human action.”

 

I would of course point out the summation of Voltaire, in disagreeing with what someone else may think and say, but defending to the death their right to say it.

 

With regards Obama, you can present your arguments or not, but I do think the view that he is the anti-Christ is not based on logic, and as such logic will have no impact on the said view.

 

My 2 cents.

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According to your beliefs anyway. I'm sure that other beliefs say the opposite while others might think the whole thing is rather silly. :)

That's why I said 'I think'. It's my opinion based on the reading and studying I've done of the Bible, and I'm by no means a Bible scholar, though I have read through the Bible a number of times and studied Revelation and Daniel in particular, being interested in anything that has to do with the future. If you'd like to actually discuss the Tribulation and Revelation besides 'I think all religion is rather silly' fine. Otherwise, I acknowledge you think it's silly, and I have nothing further to discuss about your opinion.

 

Web Rider--anyone who says they know when Christ is coming back for sure is wrong. Christ himself said only God knows when He's coming back. In the meantime, those of us who are part of the Christian faith need to be more busy helping feed the poor, caring for the sick, and other such activities enjoined by Christ while we wait, since we don't know if His return is in another 2 minutes or in another 2 millenia.

 

 

Arcesious--Revelation 13 addresses a lot of it--has to have a fatal wound that was healed, needs to be a brilliant military leader ('who is able to wage war with him'), and has to blaspheme against God publicly. Obama is a Christian. He's never blasphemed. He's not a military leader. He's never received a fatal wound from which he then recovered. He doesn't fit the criteria. Since he expresses faith in Christ, it's pretty hard for him to be an antichrist.

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Web Rider--anyone who says they know when Christ is coming back for sure is wrong. Christ himself said only God knows when He's coming back. In the meantime, those of us who are part of the Christian faith need to be more busy helping feed the poor, caring for the sick, and other such activities enjoined by Christ while we wait, since we don't know if His return is in another 2 minutes or in another 2 millenia.

 

My own theory is Christ won't come back until everyone who will accept him has done so, and only after that point will he come back.

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My own theory is Christ won't come back until everyone who will accept him has done so, and only after that point will he come back.

 

I could buy that--I think He'd like to give everyone every possible opportunity. However, since I don't know when that would be, I'll just keep trying (with varying degrees of success/failure) to do the work He's set out for me to do. If He comes back soon, great, if He doesn't, I've hopefully lived a long productive life and look forward to seeing Him in heaven.

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Interesting... Despite my being an Athiest now, I still find theological research to be facinating, and thus, I enjoy to learn some of the theology my pastor teaches, derived from R.B Thieme's and others' research. The whole '666' code was interesting to read about how it worked when I looked it up on several websites... Perhaps now I can derive an argument against these accusations my church has about Obama. My pastor is a reasonable theologian, so hopefully he'll listen.

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That's why I said 'I think'.
Actually that isn't what you said, but if you're telling me that's what you meant, then I'll accept that.

 

It's my opinion based on the reading and studying I've done of the Bible, and I'm by no means a Bible scholar, though I have read through the Bible a number of times and studied Revelation and Daniel in particular, being interested in anything that has to do with the future. If you'd like to actually discuss the Tribulation and Revelation besides 'I think all religion is rather silly' fine. Otherwise, I acknowledge you think it's silly, and I have nothing further to discuss about your opinion.
Sure Jae, I'd be more than happy to discuss the tribulation and revelation with you. Perhaps the best place we could begin is the authors and why it is that we should accept their writings.

 

Web Rider--anyone who says they know when Christ is coming back for sure is wrong.
Matthew 16:28?

 

Christ himself said only God knows when He's coming back.
Matthew 16:28!

 

In the meantime, those of us who are part of the Christian faith need to be more busy helping feed the poor, caring for the sick, and other such activities enjoined by Christ while we wait, since we don't know if His return is in another 2 minutes or in another 2 millenia.
Unless of course you're one of those that accept salvation via faith. But that's a different discussion.

 

My own theory is Christ won't come back until everyone who will accept him has done so, and only after that point will he come back.
Hmmm...wouldn't that be impossible considering that new people are born every second? Seems like logistics alone would make that one difficult. Plus the fact that the influence of islam is growing, etc.
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*Rolls eyes*

 

Alright. I believe that this will happen, although I disagree with Jae on the Rapture - I don't believe it will happen, although I lend it more credence than I lend Purgatory.

 

But, come on. Obama is the Antichrist? I could take Hilary - at least she's psychotic. But Obama...well, Obama's got nothing going for him being the Antichrist other than he's got big ears that maybe if you looked really close could be a pair of sixes stapled to the side of his head. I think he's a snake in the grass, but I hardly think he's the Devil made manifest. None of the signs have come to pass.

 

EDIT: And, Achilles, just because Salvation is gained by faith does not mean that a Christian should not do good things. It's not part of getting into the Kingdom, as evidenced by the Thief, but it should be done.

 

Also, Matthew 16:28 is... 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

 

Now, I can't explain that. But my suspicion would be? Some of those Disciples never died. Rather, they ascended into Heaven, to taste Death when the time came. Either that, or they're still among us, but that's an idea that's so far out there in left field that I don't say it with any degree of conviction.

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