Is TOR as good as KOTOR III?

[gianner]

Just leave it there Tommycat!! Its not how old it is. Thanks for the milk_ice-cream Darth_Yuthura.

You made your point. Now we all want a KOTOR 3. That is a fact.

 

But if, I say IF, TOR gives us a good story (that fourth pillar of Bioware's) and has a good gameplay why not give it a try?

 

In this society you cant expect anything good to be given away just like that. Money is what rules us all. Thats why TOR is the winner and not KOTOR3.

[Web Rider]

And the milk and ice cream analogy:

ah but there are people who would buy milk that would buy ice cream, cheese, and other milk based products. And you couldn't expect that all the people that like ice cream would necessarily want to buy milk. Milk 300 years later can still be gotten. Maybe not from the same cow(as of yet), but it can still be gotten. erm... where the heck is this going?

 

Well I was hoping it would lead towards a nice Denver omelet, but alas, it did not go there.

 

Yes, it's unfortunate that TOR as a concept is not what we KOTOR fans were looking for, but lets at least see if it's got a story of any sort, and ya know, give them a chance to present their product before flaying it and eating it alive.

[gianner]

I am willing to give them a chance. I have given away so many chances, whats one more?

If we were getting paid for every time we were dissapointed by a project, we'd all be rich by now...

[logan23]

Basically it comes down to reinventing its-self.

 

It has been some years since kotor2.

I believe Lucas Arts hard ideas and concepts for a kotor3 but when there was a shakeup in the company the idea of kotor3 was pushed back.

 

When they came around to making another kotor game they thought what can we bring new to the franchise of kotor.

 

They decided if they can bring the story alive in a mmo then that would be the best way to take the kotor series to the next level.

 

Some would argue that a better plan would be to make kotor3 and then have TOR mmo in the back and release it a year after to piggyback and boost sales.

 

I think once they saw the potential that a kotor mmo had they decided that thye can always leak what happen to Revan and Exile after kotor2 as a type of easter egg in TOR.

 

I see a lot of debate on having the mmo around the time of the original kotor series but I believe that is what hurt Galaxy.

 

Galaxy was limited in story since we all knew what happens.

In TOR mmo you will have no idea whats going to happen, no limits.

 

What made Kotor1/2 so great was the ability to break away from the limits of the Skywalker galaxy. This allowed new characters, new worlds new adventures. It made kotor so fresh and new.

 

What makes a great Epic is the ability to care for the characters and to keep the reader/player anxious on what will happen on the next page in the adventure.

 

I never played a mmo but TOR with its story feature makes me want to jump in and ride the adventure just as I did when I first saw the Star wars movies and kotor games. Its a great feeling:)

 

Logan

[Rathoris]

on an unrelated note, has anybody seen the new screenshots released a few hours ago? Looks alot better then the first batch. Despite the fact that i want to finish the story set out in K1 and K2 i'm starting to get slighty excited about the potential of this MMO.

[Darth_Yuthura]

How many novels and storylines had been created since ROTJ? If the Star Wars universe gets old after a length of time, then why were so many new novels, stories, characters, and plots come within years of the original trilogy?

 

I think that the enrichment of a given period of history is what would have made KOTOR III even better. It disappoints me that they throw most of that away by going ahead 300 years. I didn't want something completely new, but and enrichment of the Galaxy at the time of Revan and the Sith war.

 

But this is getting nowhere. I don't expect this post to convince anyone who've already made their stand.

[Tommycat]

How many novels and storylines had been created since ROTJ? If the Star Wars universe gets old after a length of time, then why were so many new novels, stories, characters, and plots come within years of the original trilogy?

 

I think that the enrichment of a given period of history is what would have made KOTOR III even better. It disappoints me that they throw most of that away by going ahead 300 years. I didn't want something completely new, but and enrichment of the Galaxy at the time of Revan and the Sith war.

 

But this is getting nowhere. I don't expect this post to convince anyone who've already made their stand.

 

I haven't made any stand. Quite frankly I am just saying that with as little info as we have it is too early to tell if they killed the story of Revan and the Exile. Quite frankly YOU are the one making a stand by saying that it has killed it with NO real proof that they killed anything. You made the claim of murder. Back it up with evidence.

 

Besides, leaving 300 years in between leaves plenty of room for people to come up with heroic tales following the events of TSL. If anything it preserves the time period for those that want to create their own story.

[TKA-001]

I wish I could retract my vote. TOR has little to nothing to do with the KOTOR series and it places no restrictions on a possible KOTOR 3 (except for Revan apparently failing, but I'm not losing any sleep over that).

[Sharen Thrawn]

I wish I could retract my vote. TOR has little to nothing to do with the KOTOR series and it places no restrictions on a possible KOTOR 3 (except for Revan apparently failing, but I'm not losing any sleep over that).

 

Having potentially 3 (if not more) of the characters from the original KOTOR games and the main villian introduced for the first time in The Sith Lords is not a little to no connection.

[Robb Stark]

Many KotOR fans upset that they are apparently being robbed of the opportunity to participate in the conclusion of a story they had been a part of for two-thirds of the telling. Instead they will be told the conclusion through one medium or another. As a property LA and Bioware have the right to do with it as they wish, yet I don't think there should be anything suprising that there are many fans of the SPRPG series upset with it.

 

I am surprised though that people believe that TOR won't provide information regarding what that conclusion was, particularly given that thousands of years of Star Wars history revolve around the conflict between the Jedi and the Sith. In a game world as massive and detailed as an MMO should be, it's inconceivable to me that the events following TSL won't be given a massive amount of treatment in in-game lore.

 

Just because 99% of MMO players skip through quest text, NPC text, NPC chatter, and other lore-related material in favor of making their toons as uber as possible as quickly as possible doesn't mean that lore doesn't exist. World of Warcraft, for example, has hundreds, even thousands of years of (often invented as-needed) lore as a basis for the content in the game, whether included directly or as "background" for characters, quests, and locations. If TOR expects to be the marvel of a MMO world that Star Wars could and should be, it MUST be based on and include substantial information from the period since TSL. Furthermore, this isn't truly an ancient civlization we're talking about here where events three-hundred years past might as well be from a fictional epic poem...the Star Wars universe is riddled with people or groups with the means and drive to record and preserve history, and the Republic itself is a monument to historical continuity.

 

What happens to Revan and Exile and their quest to find and stop (or join?) the threat in the Unknown Regions will be addressed in TOR, IMO, at least to the point that a player will have a good idea how any subsequently produced single-player KotOR III ends before they create their character (if they've played TOR). If, indeed, the threat is the same Sith Empire being dealt with by the Republic in TOR--something that seems to be implied by Bioware and LA--"endgame" content will almost necessitate that the means of their success or failure be addressed in some fashion for players who "beat the game" (ie, progress through all plot-based content). Unless, of course, Revan and Exile become utterly irrelevant to the Star Wars story after TSL, which would be a different sort of disgrace all by itself.

 

Anyway, the problem as I see it isn't that TOR won't conclude the KotOR series--it almost certainly will include a conlcusion to that story in some fashion--it's that the player had originally been an intimate part of that story unfolding and an MMO set 300 years later takes that out of their hands.

 

The really upsetting thing to me will be when, five years from now, LA tries to put out a single-player KotOR III. IMO the point of the 300-year gap was first a shameless attempt to pass TOR off to KotOR fans as a continuation of the KotOR saga in order to secure a "fanbase" for their MMO, and second to allow a period substantial enough that a KotOR III covering a few months or years could be told to milk even more money out of the same story, except that the story of such a KotOR III will be constrained by both KotOR I and II and TOR, which IMO is a recipe for story-telling disaster. The conlusion will already be known, such that a KotOR III would amount to gooshy details or "fanfic." Basing a story on past events but leaving oneself the opportunity to tell it wherever it goes generally yields much better results than trying to match up specific events of a story with what will happen in the near future--witness the Star Wars prequels.

 

As an aside, characterizing everybody who wanted a "proper" single-player conclusion to the KotOR series as fanboyz only interested in Revan and Exile kicking arse and seeing all the old party NPCs survive and pwning the True Sith or whatever is extremely unfair. Many of us wanted a thoughtful story that unfolded in an exciting and entertaining fashion as we participated in it first-hand with our player-character, regardless of the fates of the characters we have come to know.

[TKA-001]

characterizing everybody who wanted a "proper" single-player conclusion to the KotOR series as fanboyz only interested in Revan and Exile kicking arse and seeing all the old party NPCs survive and pwning the True Sith or whatever is extremely unfair.

When you add three to five, you get eight. It doesn't have to be fair to be [mostly] true.

[Darth_Yuthura]

Darth Yuthura, your poll is hardly unbiassed. There was no possible alternative answer. Your poll has only "Yes it killed the story", "I don't mind that it killed the story," and "what story give me gameplay." To be a fair poll, you have to have Yes, No, Not sure.

 

Then am I to assume that you chose not to take part in this 'biassed' poll? If I were just spouting off for nothing, then this thread would have died out a long time ago. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but for some reason, people keep posting on this thread and it's not just me.

 

If anyone is discontent with my biassed poll, then by all means, don't complain about a thread that you chose to keep viewing. This isn't me being pushy... I don't force anything upon people who choose to keep posting on this thread.

[True_Avery]

People may be posting in this thread, but that same logic loops back to you.

 

Why post in a forum about a game you hate and will never buy?

[Tommycat]

Then am I to assume that you chose not to take part in this 'biassed' poll? If I were just spouting off for nothing, then this thread would have died out a long time ago. I'm not trying to be a nuisance, but for some reason, people keep posting on this thread and it's not just me.

 

If anyone is discontent with my biassed poll, then by all means, don't complain about a thread that you chose to keep viewing. This isn't me being pushy... I don't force anything upon people who choose to keep posting on this thread.

The problem is that you are using that poll to back up your claim. If you are using a poll to back up your claim it should be free of bias, and offer real alternatives. I could make a poll and use it to say people like wife beating if I word it correctly.

 

This thread is in a forum dedicated to a game I am interested in. Yer dang right I'll post in it even if only to provide the other opinion. And actually you are spouting off for nothing. but the thread doesn't die because there IS disagreement. Threads that have a consensus generally get ignored or have simple posts that say "QFE" in them.

[glovemaster]

A KotOR 3 RPG would easily be better than some KotOR-not-so-"KotOR"-because-its-300-years-later-so-its-just-"tOR" MMO.

I'm not expecting a fantastic storyline, George Lucas continues to beat his own franchise with a hammer, and squeeze all the blood he can from it that all they can do now is set something a few thousand years ago where no one has invented anything else. <_< I guess its better than SWG where they just plonked it between Ep4 and 6.

 

Force Unleashed tipped the boat for crap Star Wars storylines and at the same time set the standard for most amazing gameplay ever seen for any Star Wars RPG. I couldn't care less what Bioware come out with as a storyline because its gonna be pretty lame anyway.

 

If Bioware can at least pull gameplay off then it'll be a moderate success for me

[TKA-001]

Force Unleashed tipped the boat for crap Star Wars storylines and

I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).

[DarthJacen]

I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).

 

Hey! I liked Legacy of the Force. Even though, they killed off most of my favorite characters of Luke Skywalker's Jedi Order, it was still a nice series to read.

[glovemaster]

I think I just lost a brain cell. Say what you want about TFU's quality, but if you seriously think it's among the worst Star Wars has to offer, you need to get things in perspective (reading a Traviss novel or one of the LOTF books would be a good way).

I think TFU was far from the worst story, but after playing TFU I'm not expecting brilliant storylines from Star Wars now.

[Darth_Yuthura]

I guess that I was just hoping for a conclusion to TSL that had at least some effort to it. I don't think dropping everything and going 300 years later is much of a conclusion to me.

 

TFU endings were both bad because the secret apprentice dies or becomes a new Vader. The cannon ending would have been much better if it had an ending that didn't involve facing Vader and the Emperor because those are impossible odds. It would be better if these SW stories didn't always have the fate of the Galaxy resting with the Hero. Scale it down a bit!

[TKA-001]

I guess that I was just hoping for a conclusion to TSL that had at least some effort to it. I don't think dropping everything and going 300 years later is much of a conclusion to me.

That's true, because TOR is not intended to be a conclusion to TSL, and criticizing this MMO for not doing that is like criticizing an archer for being a poor fencer.

 

TFU endings were both bad because the secret apprentice dies or becomes a new Vader. The cannon ending would have been much better if it had an ending that didn't involve facing Vader and the Emperor because those are impossible odds. It would be better if these SW stories didn't always have the fate of the Galaxy resting with the Hero. Scale it down a bit!

See, this sort of lack of imagination is the reason I don't read most fan fiction. Nobody can ever think of anything original. I admit I'm somewhat surprised that you complain that the endings were too epic - everyone else I've heard complains that Galen should have survived both endings; that he should have gone into hiding to fight another day in the light ending, and killed both Darth Sidious and Darth Vader and become the next Emperor in the dark ending. Needless to say, both of these ideas are absurdly fanboyish garbage, because winning and surviving has happened in every single other light side ending LA has ever done, and killing the main villain and becoming Prince of the Universe (or whatever) has happened in every single other dark side ending LA has ever done.

 

Both TFU endings are the best endings Lucasarts has ever done, by default because they were actually original. Every past Star Wars game with more than one ending has suffered from KOTOR Ending Syndrome (and that's assuming that KOTOR can be said to have an ending), and I admit I expected nothing different in TFU's case, but I must say I was delighted when I realized that TFU was a game with endings that not only would actually be good, but good whether the player wanted it or not.

 

Why is the light side ending good? Because Galen dies, killed by Darth Sidious because Sidious is far stronger than him, and doing what is right never comes without a sacrifice. Simple as that. Much better than the trash I expected it to be. You say that the story shouldn't have had Galen fight Sidious and Vader. Who should he have had to fight instead, some other villain that was never heard of before? Besides, if the odds of Galen's survival weren't virtually impossible, what would that say about his courage?

 

In fact, I dare say the dark side ending was far better than the light one. A number of people could have guessed that Galen would sacrifice himself in the good ending, but nobody expected anything in the evil ending other than Galen becoming the next Emperor of the galaxy (which is retarded for a multitude of reasons, and I'm not even counting the fact that Galen wouldn't stand a snowball's chance in hell against Sidious in a real fight) - when the player first sees Galen turn and attack Sidious instead of Kota, they're surprised that Sidious blocks it, but still probably expect a final boss fight with the Emperor. Do they get it? No. Sidious blasts him with his trademark *****-slap lightning and throws him through a window. The player is still thinking "I still get one chance at defeating the Emperor, right?" And when the player sees Sidious grab that ship and throw it at Galen, they think he dies. Seeing the character die like that in and of itself is a major mind-**** when you expected something completely different.

 

When the player realizes that the story isn't quite over yet and the scene changes to the same room where Vader was reconstructed, that's when the real mind-**** takes place: the player forgot that because Vader died, Sidious needs an apprentice - whether the apprentice is willing or not. This forms the most badass dark side ending in the history of Star Wars - and it's not because of the brilliant irony that as a result of his greed and wrath Galen is now far worse off than he could ever have imagined himself being, nor is it because of how it undeniably drives home the fact that Galen never stood a chance against Sidious. It's not even because it shows what evil is rewarded with. It's the best ending Lucasarts ever made for a game such as this because it was not only completely unexpected, but also logical.

 

Of course, almost nobody even realized any of the above, and even fewer people cared - the community wanted the canned light and dark side endings that they had seen in all of the previous LA games to be in TFU, also. Simply put, the community at large didn't want a good ending.

 

As for you complaining about the scale of the whole thing, you're making the same mistake here as you are about TOR not finishing TSL's story - just as TOR is not supposed to finish TSL, TFU is not supposed to be smaller in scale. You're criticizing the story for being itself, not for doing anything wrong.

[HK-42]

<snip>

 

Here Here. I think the TFU endings were amazing and original. Also since this IS a mmo, it will be a very long storyline to keep the game going. Probably multiple storylines in quests to defeat the sith or jedi. MMOs are typically very long games.

[TKA-001]

Ehh, sorry about the essay. Couldn't help myself.

[HK-42]

Ehh, sorry about the essay. Couldn't help myself.

 

It was very moving:D

[Darth_Yuthura]

TFU at least required some effort. Anyone could just turn chaos into more chaos. I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done. Yes, I don mean 'literally' in its proper tense.

 

They didn't create and original or even an unorthadox conclusion... they did nothing at all. Anyone and everyone could do that.

[TKA-001]

I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done

I very much doubt that.

 

I could literally make a TSL conclusion that is better than what Lucasarts has done.

You ignore the fact that they didn't create a TSL conclusion, nor did they even intend to.