SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Oh and SyntheticGerbil, why do you keep bringing Parabolee into this? He has nothing to do with this topic :S Because I think they are both LucasArts spies with a vengeance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I find it strange that you're all ridiculing guy.brush for sharing an opinion on TMI whilst in other threads you're doing the exact same thing about MI:SE. If he was saying the same about the lighting in MI:SE I wouldn't change my argument. And it's not so much his opinion I don't like, it's how he keeps claiming superior knowledge by using odd, out of place references to games of the past. That and how he keeps insisting TellTale are doing a lazy job! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Because I think they are both LucasArts spies with a vengeance. Well they do both seem to like complaining about extremely minor details and then patronise everyone else by showing that they can "fix" the "problem" and LucasArts/TellTale cannot. Even though everyone can "fix" these "problems" but they respect the artist's view/decision. I mean you don't go around correcting the Mona Lisa! But hey... as much as I agree with what you are saying, I still don't think it was appropriate to bring Parabolee into this topic. However, I do find it odd that there seems to be so much more "it should be done this way *shows picture*" for Monkey Island than for any other game. Conspiracy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 I'm not saying it's lazy. Chillout! But you compare Telltale's work with "THE MONA LISA"?! haha, comeon even hardcore fanboys should allow constructive criticism to better their favorite company's work. These companies aren't remote Gods sitting on a throne together with DaVinci. All I said is that there is room for improvement in the lighting department...LOTS OF ROOM And I beg to differ that the older games had no lighting to speak of. It was painted into the backgrounds or into special animations of the characters! Just look at this: Light & shadows galore. There were so many rooms where half of the space would just dip into total black to increase the mood. The contrast spectrum was richer. If Telltale can't improve the lighting technique inside the engine, I already suggested heavier usage of post-pro fx and there is another way: Baking rich shadows and lighting into the textures, just like 2d artists did. I know that to achieve a look I "painted in" is no walk in the park, otherwise IT WOULD BE IN ALREADY. I'm just suggesting that they should focus their main R&D energy towards this goal. And btw it is a totally normal process to develop a keylook for a scene/setting in photoshop/After Effects /whatever and then show the engine guys what the mood and lighting of the scene should achieve. It's called visual goal based game development. And it really helps a lot to push a team harder when it comes to visuals. Some companys even go to the length of letting a CG studio like BLUR create a target render video that they have to aim for with their realtime stuff. Well if Telltale has no target render artwork, we can always give them something to try to achieve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I stand corrected, I've seen Guy.brush's website and it's very nice and professional, he knows his lighting and he doesn't work for LucasArts, and I'll gladly step aside and let him continue at will now. You should still post your last few shots on Telltale's board. Just say like, "is there any chance lighting can be improved along these lines?" haha, comeon even hardcore fanboys should allow constructive criticism to better their favorite company's work. When all's said and done, I'm really not the biggest Monkey Island fan. I've always been way more into Sam and Max and anything Steve Purcell as well as Tim Schafer's games, which all kind of overlaps with the first two Monkey Islands. The news is just all the rage right now. All the while I'm wondering what will happen with the Brutal Legend lawsuit and when Insecticide Part 2 will be making an appearance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neon_git Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Oh man, this thread is hilarious. To the new folks: Don't be offended by SyntheticGerbil, he can come across a bit abrasive sometimes but he's actually a top bloke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parabolee Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Well they do both seem to like complaining about extremely minor details and then patronise everyone else by showing that they can "fix" the "problem" and LucasArts/TellTale cannot.! Er... this is an unfair description of me. Sure I did "fix" the poster, to my liking but I don't think it's accurate to say I complain about extremely minor details at all, in fact I have not complained about anything other than the poster! And I never said Lucasarts couldn't fix it, I used there own art to fix it! They clearly can because the head I used to fix it was one they did. In fact Gerbil accused me of being too defensive of the games just because I disagreed with his criticisms. The only thing I have complained about is the poster, that's it. Other than that I am one of the biggest lovers of the SE on here and have not posted a single complaint about Tales of. I'm very happy with how it looks is the videos, especially the latest one. Sure it could be improved, but everything can be improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Oh man, this thread is hilarious. To the new folks: Don't be offended by SyntheticGerbil, he can come across a bit abrasive sometimes but he's actually a top bloke. Awww, thank you sir! The only thing I have complained about is the poster, that's it. Other than that I am one of the biggest lovers of the SE on here and have not posted a single complaint about Tales of. I'm very happy with how it looks is the videos, especially the latest one. Sure it could be improved, but everything can be improved. That's the part that was/is suspicious to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickelstein Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I dunno about you but I find the bland lighting and color styles in the TALES screenshots and videos to be somewhat lacking. Maybe it's Telltale's lack of good lighting artists or their engine not having the capability for more than one dynamic light or deep shadows, I dunno. But: There is potential for improvement, even if Telltale lacks the lighting TD or engineering talent to improve lighting in their scenes or integrate new features into their engine. And you don't have to increase the polycount (which would still be a nice thing to do btw). You can do an aweful lot with adding post-processing filters, after the image is rendered. Something like this: As you can see there is lots of potential for the images in TALES to look drastically better (at least for my taste) and less bland 3d-ish. I just played around with typical post-filters and applied basic eye perception rules normally done in film compositing. here are some of the tweaks to get the game to look more like a hand-drawn MI2: -color balancing ->red is the first color that gets weaker over distance (the human eye works that way) -some depth of field mock-up -increasing/decreasing contrast to get focus into the images -added vignettes to increase focus -tried to increase the shadow depth (Caribbean sun for God's sake!) -simplified the background colors to match a more handdrawn style (there are ugly hues in the original skies, especially in the one with the pirate captain) -added slight drawing outline effects What do you think? What is this? Honestly what is this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parabolee Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Oh man, this thread is hilarious. To the new folks: Don't be offended by SyntheticGerbil, he can come across a bit abrasive sometimes but he's actually a top bloke. He's abrasive when he's being nice, and he's rarely nice. Usually he's outright rude, arrogant, convinced he's right about everything and has no respect for other people's opinions. But yeah, other than that he's a great geezer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
parabolee Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 That's the part that was/is suspicious to me. Don't be absurd, you don't honestly want me to believe you thought Lucasarts send spies to argue there games look good on message forums? Your problem is you have don't understand that people can have a different opinion to you on subjective matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Don't be absurd, you don't honestly want me to believe you thought Lucasarts send spies to argue there games look good on message forums The spies thing was a half joke, but I've seen stranger things happen on the internet. A just joined profile with a low post count is usually highly suspect. If you want to see one of the weirdest cases I may have ever come across as a company in a bad disguise, you should Google Shocker Toys (add "fraud," "scam," or "sucks" to the end of it). They were even lurking around these forums and a few subforums as a "fan" trying to get us to protest whoever to help them get toy license properties. My theory was that you were both artists who worked on the Special Edition and were curious about how your work was received. But yeah, other than that he's a great geezer. Guys why do I have to be old in order to be grumpy? Why can't I be a bitter young man instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Alright, just became member over at Telltale to post the nighttime suggestions. I hope they take it as a friendly, constructive suggestion and not as an insult! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickelstein Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Ahhhhhhhh sh*t. Here we go again. *Runs to get popcorn* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giant Graffiti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 What is this? Honestly what is this? Edited screenshots. If you want to see one of the weirdest cases I may have ever come across as a company in a bad disguise, you should Google Shocker Toys (add "fraud," "scam," or "sucks" to the end of it). How about all three? Here we go again. Here what goes again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 And I beg to differ that the older games had no lighting to speak of. It was painted into the backgrounds or into special animations of the characters! Just look at this: Are you aware that you just chose a screenshot set in a swamp just because it is clouded by trees and would therefore have lots of shadows, as a way of proving to me that the whole game has extensive lighting techniques? When did I say the older games had NO lighting? Notice how my TMI sprite has shading, you know what shading is right? Show me a screenshot from TMI that is also in a swamp, please! And parabolee... don't take it to heart. "LucasArts spies" he's joking dude, don't worry about it XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickelstein Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Edited screenshots. How about all three? Here what goes again? You'll see eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 How about all three? Haha, that actually finds some good stuff as well. They are good about deleting stuff from forums where they piss off actual comic industry workers though. The didn't delete me being a butthole to them in the Sam and Max forums a couple years back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 You'll see eventually. I like how your post has been edited but it doesn't say so... but anyways, Parabolee is completely overreacting, I'm sure he'll come to some sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickelstein Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Im still getting the popcorn just in case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 Im still getting the popcorn just in case. If anything does happen, I want to join in. I'm bored now that Guy.brush isn't arguing any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
irishmile Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 I am of that rare breed of people who doesn't care for popcorn..... Doesn't really add to this subject though does it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SyntheticGerbil Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 You know what really sucks though? Kettle corn. Or am I in the minority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guy.brush Posted July 2, 2009 Author Share Posted July 2, 2009 Scapetti: if you can't see that there are lots and lots of cool light sources and shadows in the original MI2 backgrounds, I can't help you. If you fail to see the broader contrast spectrum of MI2 vs. TMI I can't help you. Show me one TMI screenshot where a whole part or the shadows dip into real black. Just one. there is the one with the Voodoo mama which should be their benchmark. All the others could use more contrast and better lighting. They even do little touchups themselves. Check out those two Guybrushs. One is from the game, the other seems to have improved keylight on the left side of the face. could be offline render or hopefully a real in-game improvement. My main fear lies in the vegetation. I pray that they keep pushing the visuals for the trees and jungles, cause this: Looks a little too N64-ish for my taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scapetti Posted July 2, 2009 Share Posted July 2, 2009 All the others could use more contrast and better lighting. Well I could say the same for all the daylight sections of MI2 :/ Do you have lights where you live? Do you prefer ambient lights you keep in the corner to give your real world a more realistic feel ¬_¬ Have you ever been outside?! o.O To anyone not on the TellTale forums, one of the TellTale guys posted this in reply to Guy.brush: Thought you might want to see it! I love it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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