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Soul Searchin' (LONG!)


Tysyacha
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Honestly, Evil Q, I don't find that to be a good reason to not believe in Christianity.

Well, that's good, given that I never said that I don't believe in it. I left the religion because I can't stand to be around the people that I described above, not because I didn't believe in the doctrine itself. I'd simply rather not be counted among them in the end.

How some or a majority of a religion's followers behave does not effect whether or not the religion is true.

You're right; it doesn't. I never said that it did. A religion can be 100% true and still be a complete failure due to the actions of its followers, which I believe is the case with Christianity.

Edited by Q
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Anyways what I'm saying is that a lot of traditions in religions are simply irrational. For example, the sacredness of cows in Hinduism. Things like this just simply don't make sense.

 

They might sound bizarre and ridiculous to us, but irrational is not a word I would use. There is always a reason behind everything, and anthropologists are out to find out what that is.

 

The sacredness of cows stems from the pastoral Aryans who are seen praising the merits of cows in the Vedas - notably their selflessness, nourishment and utility (they are useful for a variety of activities, from tilling to milking to producing manure). Eventually, to keep cow numbers up on the rise, they were made sacred and with their milk-giving nature, equated with mothers, and ultimately made sacred.

 

Why is the cow sacred? Because she's helluva lot more useful alive than dead.

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They might sound bizarre and ridiculous to us, but irrational is not a word I would use. There is always a reason behind everything, and anthropologists are out to find out what that is.

 

The sacredness of cows stems from the pastoral Aryans who are seen praising the merits of cows in the Vedas - notably their selflessness, nourishment and utility (they are useful for a variety of activities, from tilling to milking to producing manure). Eventually, to keep cow numbers up on the rise, they were made sacred and with their milk-giving nature, equated with mothers, and ultimately made sacred.

 

Why is the cow sacred? Because she's helluva lot more useful alive than dead.

 

Interesting background on that. Good to know. As Jae showed and explained with the example of prohibition from eating pork, its easy to see how these traditions came about with a bit of research. Still, in modern day a lot of these moral codes are unnecessary (circumcision being one of the bad ones), yet many people still follow them with no background knowledge on how they came about. For example, the Kosher(Kashrut) diet set forth in Judaism. (Not widely practiced, though.)

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Well when I was talking with my Jewish supervisor, we drifted to the talk of religion... Hey you spend 20+ hours of a day and it's 3AM you can talk whatever you feel like. He stated that he really despised Catholicism. His reasons were many of the acts committed by the church. My response was that it's not necessarily Catholicism he dislikes, it's the church. Quite frankly that's my view as well. Christianity itself IS the belief in Christ as your savior. Tysyacha you ARE Christian. What your problem is seems more to the rules of the church. Various churches have different rules. Orthodox churches have a lot of rules(Catholicism has a lot, but they have the get out of jail free repent method).

 

My advice to you is simple. Ignore the church. It was outdated before Christ even died for your sins. Wherever you are is your church. A building doesn't make a church. The teachings of Christ do not need gold covered temples with massive ceilings and some man telling you that you need to give 10% of your earnings to them.

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"I like your Christ. I do not like your christians, they are so unlike your christ." -- Mahatma Ghandi.

 

^This. My experience with Christianity is actually similar to your's, Tysyacha. My parents didn't orginally go to church, so I grew up very secularized. Then, we went to church, mostly due to the fact that I needed a signature from a religious leader I knew to get my Eagle Scout. Now, given, I had been to Vacation Bible school before, but I just really listened to what others were spewing, and didn't really think, being young at the time. After going to church now, I ultimately reject and perhaps even loathe the religion. Jesus was a good fellow, though I wonder if he would have still preached if he knew what the results of his teachings would bring. I pretty much refuse to associate myself with a religion that views things only in black and white. I'm more of an agnostic now (though I'm not open about it ;)). Really, I honestly believe people are following Christianity because they're scared of going to hell. Fundamentalists have also made me go away from the religion - they give Christianity such a bad name, that I didn't even want to be associated with them in any way possible. Christinaity also has way too much influence in the government. They say "Church and state are separated," but we have politicians who do things according to how their religion dictates, and we have "In God We Trust" and "One nation under God." That led me to believe the religion itself was hypocritical, or at the very least, its practitioners were. I'm actually beginning to wonder if it's better to just ditch the religion entirely. It is way too influential, IMO.

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^This. My experience with Christianity is actually similar to your's, Tysyacha. My parents didn't orginally go to church, so I grew up very secularized. Then, we went to church, mostly due to the fact that I needed a signature from a religious leader I knew to get my Eagle Scout.

 

Unrelated, but I feel it's an important point-- you don't need a signature from a religious leader to get an Eagle Scout. I'm an Eagle, and I've always been an atheistic heathen. Didn't prevent me from earning the rank, nor was there a signature line my lack of faith prevented me from getting signed. Might have changed between your time and mine, but I sure didn't need one as far as I can remember. I'm 99.9% sure of it in fact.

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Tys:

 

Having read your post, I felt the need to say something. I was born into a traditional Mexican Catholic family and raised with those principles and when you're a kid naturally you think your parents are right and they can't possibly be wrong. Then you grow up into and adolescent and then an adult and actually show you have a brain.

 

The point is that I feel for you. Frankly I am Catholic in name only. I disdain Catholicism to the degree that I don't believe in praying the rosary, to the saints or the Virgin. I equate that with idolatry. What I think matters is what you feel in your heart. I believe in the basic principles that Christ taught people and try to live my life by the Golden Rule: Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

 

I am not a religious zealot myself heck I am considered somewhat of a family heretic because I associate with homosexuals, believe that same sex marriage should exist and that I think Fox News is the mouthpiece for Bible thumping uber conservatives. Oh and also because I read information pertaining to Wiccans and pagan belief systems regardless of the fact that I am studying them. Jedi Athos I think says it best with his pic from House.

 

My point is that you have a choice, that is your ultimate and true freedom. If you like what you believe then stick with it. I'm always partial to the line in the Declaration of Independence that says "Among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

 

Besides who said that sex was bad? The Bible condemns adultry explicitly but the act of sex itself?... One of the major turn offs for me about Catholicism and fundamentalist Christians. They twist words to fit their own agenda.

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Unrelated, but I feel it's an important point-- you don't need a signature from a religious leader to get an Eagle Scout. I'm an Eagle, and I've always been an atheistic heathen. Didn't prevent me from earning the rank, nor was there a signature line my lack of faith prevented me from getting signed. Might have changed between your time and mine, but I sure didn't need one as far as I can remember. I'm 99.9% sure of it in fact.

 

Odd, as the forms required me to get a signature from a religious leader. There was also that court case where the Boy Scouts were allowed to not let in atheists, too. Weird.

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Odd, as the forms required me to get a signature from a religious leader. There was also that court case where the Boy Scouts were allowed to not let in atheists, too. Weird.

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/changes/bsrank7-10.asp

 

List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references.

 

This would seem to include the possibility of a religious leader, but not as a requirement all by itself. However the wording seems just vague enough to allow for someone to infer "religious" as a requirement.

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Odd, as the forms required me to get a signature from a religious leader. There was also that court case where the Boy Scouts were allowed to not let in atheists, too. Weird.

 

Just because they're allowed to discriminate doesn't mean they do everywhere, all the time. Very few kids in my troop were religious. I can count on one hand then ones who were. Neither were our troop leaders. Scouts was fun.

 

I don't remember how I got around the religious signature line, if there was one. I probably just sent it in without any signature, and got the rank.

 

http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout...bsrank7-10.asp

 

List the names of individuals who know you personally and would be willing to provide a recommendation on your behalf, including parents/guardians, religious, educational, and employer references.

 

This would seem to include the possibility of a religious leader, but not as a requirement all by itself. However the wording seems just vague enough to allow for someone to infer "religious" as a requirement.

 

Yes. This. It's been a long time since I've looked at the form, hence my foggy memory. All they want is recommendations from people who know your character well. If that doesn't include a religious reference, it doesn't include a religious reference. Scouts is about more than that.

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*Pic and quote of House*

 

I think that's somewhat unfair... I may be secular but I disagree. Religious people can reason, and its kind of derogatory to say that that they can't with some seemingly clever/insightful quote. [rhetorical]How do you think I ever managed to conclude that my own religion was false?[rhetorical]

 

Though I do consider the religious people on this forum to have an error in judgement in regard to their own beliefs(as they probably think the same thing about people on this forum who are not religious), I have time and time again seen most of them demonstrate excellent reasoning capability in debates and discussions.

 

Don't lump everyone together into the same pile just because of their ideology.

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I think that's somewhat unfair... I may be secular but I disagree. Religious people can reason, and its kind of derogatory to say that that they can't with some seemingly clever/insightful quote. [rhetorical]How do you think I ever managed to conclude that my own religion was false?[rhetorical]

 

Though I do consider the religious people on this forum to have an error in judgement in regard to their own beliefs(as they probably think the same thing about people on this forum who are not religious), I have time and time again seen most of them demonstrate excellent reasoning capability in debates and discussions.

 

Don't lump everyone together into the same pile just because of their ideology.

 

I apologize if it seemed I was trying to generalize. I saw the quote and the picture and thought it was interesting if not mildly humorous. I have met a great many religious people who when it comes to their religion they refuse to see anything beyond what they believe and nothing your or I can say will change their thinking. Conversely I have also met some who are wide open and more than willing to have a discussion about the theology behind a great many things.

 

So, again I apologize. I should have posted something in the way of clarification and I failed to do so.

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