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Well, considering that TIM resurrected Shep from less than a union with Morinth would have left behind, probably not a permanent end (though you can certainly end your playthrough that way if you'd like). ;) Yes, generally speaking, they could have given the main choices very different endings, but what specifically did you have in mind? It would have been very ambitious indeed, though. Hell, look how they wussed out on the whole issue of Tali's appearance. But a better plotted out ending (in addition to seeing the war assets you acquire--outside of the initial battle approaching Earth--actually used in combat) definitely would have been more intriguing. I'd have gladly waited another year (as would most fans, I think) for them to have "gotten it right".

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Not a question of writing fan fiction. Just presenting a concrete example/s of better solutions than those offered. I find most people who complain about these things rarely have constructive criticism or better solutions, they just whinge. I figured maybe you were more in the first category than the second.

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Now all you're doing is herding me into a position where my views and opinions are rendered invalid by default because I may or may not have thought of solutions to BioWare's problems. If BioWare would like to pay me to solve their problems, by all means, I welcome the money and the opportunity...

 

But I'll play your little game and give you a single example: The Geth. In Mass Effect 2 you have the power to basically determine where the future of their species will lead... in Mass Effect 3, the same basic thing occurs in the Quarian/Geth arc with just a few character changed around. It's epic, yes... but no real branching paths, just character swaps and a happy/bittersweet or sad variation of the same thing. Why not let us have an ending where depending on our choices made in ME2/3 relating to the Quarians and the Geth, we could have some kind of victory where those two factions played a huge part and even change the course of the entire ending.

 

Again, I don't write fan fiction so that's about as good an explanation I can give you.

 

With that said, and I'd like to stress this... What none of us can do in this thread or any other thread relating to something we have no power to change is to give constructive criticism. Constructive criticism requires that we have an actual part to play in the design changes of what is being discussed. *points @ tot* As I said before, what you were doing was trying to render my opinion and views invalid unless I presented a solution that cannot be enacted... even though I did provide a solution in my previous post which was referencing a previous post in this thread to begin with.

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Now all you're doing is herding me into a position where my views and opinions are rendered invalid by default because I may or may not have thought of solutions to BioWare's problems. If BioWare would like to pay me to solve their problems, by all means, I welcome the money and the opportunity...
ahh, don't give up so easily. i'm pretty sure that Bioware doesn't know/care that this thread even exists, but why not? nobody said that you have to be a good writer to come up with a solution to this sort of a problem, and whether or not a solution would ever be implemented is a rather moot point given that you faced a problem and tried to solve it. you never know if you might have an untapped skill somewhere. i believe that you probably have some great ideas, and you've already presented a few to boot.

 

and before you tell me that its just a waste of time, let me be the first to remind you that we're discussing a video game trilogy that takes about 70-90 hours to complete. ;)

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I don't think it's a waste of time, I just acknowledge that my talents are limited :p I can only go as far as critiquing video games based on my tastes, I would absolutely love to have the talent to make them and know it's tough, but even so, I still must critique away... it's tough love for the developers, no matter who they are.

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i think you have more than you think, and i got an idea to test it.

 

what if....

 

...you had the option to join the Illusive Man in ME3??

 

...you could start working with a Reaper defector???

 

...you had done irreparable damages to human/quarian relations, and they were now enemies???

 

...instead of being transported into the Citadel at the end, you were transported into an actual Reaper Harbinger itself???

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"What if" indeed, those possibilities could branch the game off into multiple directions with very different endings making players go back and rethink what they could have done differently to achieve those other outcomes. That's the kind of thing that gets people to reply games, true diversity instead of just a few different pieces of dialogue and a character swap or extra little animation.

 

It wouldn't have mattered if ME3 came on 10 discs, I would've paid for the extra discs happily if it meant I could play a game with such open possibilities... it is an absurd thing to ask for, but at the same time, BioWare started this ambitious trek and went soft at the end instead of getting even more ambitious and going that extra mile or kilometre or parsec or whatever :p

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*points back @lynk* Don't be paranoid. Never shot down any of your criticisms of the game in the first place. Nor did I imply that criticism was invalid without a proffered alternative (though you've obviously inferred that). I've acknowledged in previous posts also that they could have done stuff differently. Just thought you had a few specifics in mind, given all the vidya you've played. After all, this IS a discussion of vidya, right? Not just a big whinging session about ME3 or TOR or whatever game we're talking about in a given thread. I just agree w/stingerhs that rehashing the same complaints gets old, esp if someone isn't providing alternatives. Doesn't matter if they'd ever be incorporated, we're really just talking amongst ourselves anyway.

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*points* OBJECTION! *shakes my head you at you*

 

The problem is this: As already stated, I have already stated that I've offered alternatives in my previous post. You rejected that and challenged me to come up with something in more detail. I told you that I don't write fan fiction and with that you still wanted me to go into detail because if I didn't, I then had to be a whiner and not someone with a valid opinion... and even better, you had the tone of "you're not one of THOSE people are you?" at the end of that post.

 

Now, even worse is that I wasn't the one that started this new round of "ME3 ending whining" as has been suggested. All I did was mock Wii U and the Mass Effect 3 port released on it and others interpreted that as something else. However, out of the people here. The reason I spoke up was because I would rather defend the people who "whine" about video games than discourage anyone from expressing their opinion, even if it's rehashed.

 

Yes, things are being rehashed, but how about YOU provide alternatives instead of whining about the whiners? I presented that point to stingerhs too because the obvious point here is that instead of attacking the people in the thread, what could have... SHOULD have been done was to take the thread in a new direction by providing an alternative topic.

 

Instead, we have come to this. The topic that is being rehashed is merely being perpetuated rather than ignored and making an effort to move the topic on to something else.

 

The next post will steer this thread in a new direction, how about you do that tot? Because hey, it's more productive than calling the other members in here whiners, right? I'd think so.

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Defensive much? :rolleyes: Steering this thread in "that direction" is as much your fault as anyones. In the interest of comity, however, I'll provide you with a few things I'd have liked to see differently.

 

-less auto conversation and more actual conversation among crew members, both with each other and Shep.

 

-perhaps having a fracturing of alliances that impact the game near the end or the immediate aftermath (say, maybe the alliance having to fight the Krogan or Geth, while still combating the Reapers, depending on the outcome of those missions).

 

-Maybe, unbeknownst to Miranda, TIM actually had a switch put into Shep that allowed him to seize control and manipulate Shep into turning the Reaper assests over to him (meaning that, yes, TIM somehow manages to avoid complete indoctrination).

 

-getting rid of the War Assets feature as well as actually finishing the damn game and limiting dlc to mostly cosmetic changes (weapons, outfits, etc..)

 

-game shouldn't have come to a close so soon after getting to earth. More combat (perhaps where you could see the effects of fractured alliances) planetside.

 

-EA not obsessing about costs so much when they had an eager and built in audience willing to throw down mucho $$$ to complete their franchise.

 

Just a few ideas.

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Defensive much? :rolleyes: Steering this thread in "that direction" is as much your fault as anyones.

Yes. I was pissed off by the fact that people were being called whiners because of their opinions and I'll defend them whether you like it or not and I don't apologise for it at all. And yes, it is as much my fault because I didn't want to back down.

 

Structurally the biggest flaw of Mass Effect 3 was that no matter what choice you made, the situations you were put into were the same basic events with slight differences. I feel like even if your suggestions were added into the game, they'd suffer the same way everything else suffered in the game because everything had to be easily interchangeable. Tali dead in ME2? That's okay, she's replaced and the events that occur the same way anyway with one or two small bits changed and no real consiquence. Legion is dead? Same thing. Both dead? Same thing.

 

The whole conversations with crew thing is a good point though what really hinders ME3 was the fact that most times you were only given two choices on how to answer instead of a more diverse selection.

 

Also, sue me if I don't provide "concrete alternative solutions"... they're implied :p

 

 

 

 

 

Incidentally, that Tali post I did on Miiverse got flagged for being a spoiler... I sat there for a good minute or so trying to figure out which part of it was a spoiler... I have no idea o.o

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Yes. I was pissed off by the fact that people were being called whiners because of their opinions and I'll defend them whether you like it or not and I don't apologise for it at all. And yes, it is as much my fault because I didn't want to back down.

 

That's fine. My only point from the beginning was that only complaining about it eventually causes people to eventually tune them out, not that it invalidates the nature of their complaint.

 

Structurally the biggest flaw of Mass Effect 3 was that no matter what choice you made, the situations you were put into were the same basic events with slight differences. I feel like even if your suggestions were added into the game, they'd suffer the same way everything else suffered in the game because everything had to be easily interchangeable. Tali dead in ME2? That's okay, she's replaced and the events that occur the same way anyway with one or two small bits changed and no real consiquence. Legion is dead? Same thing. Both dead? Same thing.

 

Yes, as they did it, but I thought the whole purpose of this thought experiment was to suggest changes that would have been incorporated into the game, thus changing it from how it ultimately played out. Perhaps the ultimate problem was in the conception of the series. They knew their ending was gonna lack, so they strung everyone along as long as they could to that point. If this was the ending they basically planned 6+ yrs ago, maybe they need better talent.

 

 

The whole conversations with crew thing is a good point though what really hinders ME3 was the fact that most times you were only given two choices on how to answer instead of a more diverse selection.

 

Given how they basically bragged about the number of lines in the game, more options would have been nice.

 

Also, sue me if I don't provide "concrete alternative solutions"... they're implied :p

 

Ah, it's a mystery, then. :xp:

 

Incidentally, that Tali post I did on Miiverse got flagged for being a spoiler... I sat there for a good minute or so trying to figure out which part of it was a spoiler... I have no idea o.o

 

 

Only other things I'd add might be that Shep actually live at the end, not quite like in the light side ending of KOTOR, but with maybe a 15+ minute or so dénouement with any/all remaining players brought together. Given this was the end of his story arc, I don't really care that he died (in most of them), but an option where he basically goes off into the sunset would have been ok too. Also, perhaps in the case of the Geth and Quarians, both go out in a blaze of glory (perhaps the option where you killed the heretics in ME2) over Rannoch.

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@ DP: Those are animu happy eyes and the little ovals are animu blush marks o^^o

 

 

That's fine. My only point from the beginning was that only complaining about it eventually causes people to eventually tune them out, not that it invalidates the nature of their complaint.

I did suggest ignoring posts that complained and try to move on to a different topic several times. There's nothing wrong with doing that...

 

 

Yes, as they did it, but I thought the whole purpose of this thought experiment was to suggest changes that would have been incorporated into the game, thus changing it from how it ultimately played out. Perhaps the ultimate problem was in the conception of the series. They knew their ending was gonna lack, so they strung everyone along as long as they could to that point. If this was the ending they basically planned 6+ yrs ago, maybe they need better talent.

The problem is that the writers changed and the series went through rewrites by different people... the front end didn't match the back end... none of what turned out in ME3 was really planned 6+ years ago, it's just what they had to settle with with what they had and the budget and focus EA told them they should have.

 

Ah, it's a mystery, then. :xp:

Even a 12 year old Call of Duty fan can see why I was implying. More conversation options, more diversity of scenes rather than copypastas. As I said before, I shouldn't have to give dot point fan fiction every time XD

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No offense, lynk, but those sound more like general examples and not specific ones, hence why I said mystery. ;) I did recall reading/hearing that the end was basically in line with what they had supposedly planned from the beginning. If that was true.....well, we see how well that ended. Otherwise, too many writers, in viday, like video (ie film), seems like a bad idea in the end. Especially when the creative people lose their focus (for whatever reason). As to all the complaining stuff you reference, I wasn't even talking about LF but ME fandom in general. It doesn't offend me, more like amuses me b/c the tone is often overly strident. To each his own, I guess.

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I'm not sure if the lack of a big impact of your choices is the real problem, because the ME series never really let your choices have much of an impact. Sure, it often implied that they would have an impact, but after ME2, who honestly expected your choices to matter all that much?

Lacking better examples, ME is nothing like Alpha Protocol or the Witcher when it comes to choices. ME as a series is like a Hollywood blockbuster in many ways, and if they had written the endings consistent with that, I suspect most fans wouldn't care that much about the lack of impact full choices. Instead, we got Casper and an attempt at being clever.

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Not really, it was fun in terms of action but there was no "wow" factor to it at all, no standing out moment like any other DLC. It pretty much was shooting the bad-guys up till the end with Aria. No real RPG struggle, etc.

 

However, it might be fun if you want to get some more EMS

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Just finished Omega.

 

It's ok; IMO not as good as Leviathan or Lair of the Shadow Broker. I think it fits very well with the vanilla game - it felt just like one of the side missions (while Lev and LotSB felt like special story events).

 

I found the whole thing rather predictable (though that can be said of Mass Effect as a whole) - for example,

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at the first mention of a mine in Omega, it became immediately obvious that the previously mentioned Adjutants would be encountered there.

 

The character of Nyreen was nothing new, though I thought the backstory between her and Aria was somewhat interesting (the interaction of Nyreen's then-underdeveloped personality and Aria's strongly developed one).

 

But I think it would have been more interesting her character's inner conflict was brought from the past, to the present time. For example, if the now self-confident Nyreen where to find herself being influenced by Aria after interacting with her again after a long time, and is distressed by the fact.

The now-present psychological conflict could then have been a valuable point of interaction for the player - it could have been helped to be overcome out of benevolence, manipulated for gain, or perhaps even aggravated for sadistic pleasure.

 

I think something like that could have added a little more depth to the story than what the existing character interactions in the DLC already offer.

 

I thought Nyreen's death was a good thing, not for any dislike of the character, but because it was (to me, anyway) completely unexpected, and caught me completely off-guard. I had expected her to become some important character, perhaps even a squadmate. I personally liked that development, as it added a little vitality to the experience.

 

On an unrelated note: A general is shown playing a game of chess at the opening of a military confrontation. Oh come on, seriously? :rolleyes:

 

 

I find it a little funny that no attention whatsoever is drawn in-story about Nyreen's gender, considering that she is the first Turian female Shepard has encountered in months (or ever, as far as the player is concerned). I suppose that is to be expected, since the almost complete lack of non-Human, Asari, and Quarian females up to this point in the trilogy is somewhat of an awkward issue. But thus far, Krogan females have been explained to be rare, and I think Salarian females prefer to remain on their homeworld; I don't know what the lore explanation for Turians is.

I like the Turian female physical design. I hope they're brought to Multiplayer sometime, too.

 

I also like how the DLC lets us see more of Aria; she is one of the more favoured characters among fans, as far as I know.

 

There were a few animation glitches, as has been pointed out by Stingerhs. I don't recall ever encountering those bugs previously, so it was a bit strange (and immersion breaking).

 

It was funny playing Single Player Normal difficulty after playing Multiplayer. In fact, I think even Bronze may be harder than Normal.

I've heard Insanity is a walk in the park compared to Gold, though I have yet to try this.

 

[EDIT]Confirmed. I just replayed the (DLC) endgame on Insanity, and it didn't even begin to rival Gold. More like Silver. When you add the time perception manipulation features available in single player, it almost feels like you're cheating. :p

I think I'll try get that Insanity achievement next time I play through...

Edited by JesusIsGonnaOwnSatan
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For me, the ending was so bad that it turned a once-obsessed with and loved series of mine into a mehfest..I haven't bought ANY DLC for ME3, whereas I rushed to buy every single ME2 DLC there was. The ending just ruined it all. I will not be getting the Omega DLC either.

 

I still get the DLC's that come out. That's because I'm a completionist and, I've gotten them all up to this point; I might as well keep going.

 

Some of the stuff they release is pretty cool. Like the new Venom shotgun in the Groundside Resistance Pack. That is one badass freaking gun.

 

Not going to defend the ending as great, it wasn't IMO, but it is hard to believe people are so upset that they allow the last 5 mins to ruin the entire story. I loved ME3 as part of a trilogy up until the final elevator ride.

 

...

 

I have only played through ME3 twice, but that is due to another game taking all my free time, not because ME3 was a terrible game, it isn't, it is a great game with a bad ending. Just like RotJ is average movie, with a terrible ending. Ewoks...need I say more.

 

 

 

you know, maybe its because i've always been more of a fan of shooters than RPG's, but i fail to see how an ending "destroys" a game. from where i stand, it really just makes everybody sound like a bunch of whining nerds that care too much about whether or not Han shot first. if you have a 5 course meal, and the first 4 courses are amazing, then how does a "mediocre and rushed" final course "destroy" the entire meal??

 

to me, it just comes across as utter ridiculousness, and what is equally sad is that someone will probably get offended and try to tell me why i'm wrong because this is a "special case". at the end of the day, it really boils down to this: your lofty expectations weren't met. one of these days, maybe you'll realize that, when it comes to the ME3 ending, the game put you on an emotional roller coaster with challenging combat and tough decisions that drove you to the ending in a thrilling campaign. if that part of the game hadn't been so good, you never would've reached the ending.

 

 

I think stories are more complex things than coursed meals. :)

Setting, characters, conflict, resolution.. These things can be modelled as a points on a line, but imho in the context of an abstract experience, they're more like joins in a skeletal tower. You can't always expect to be able to remove any point from it, and expect it to keep standing.

 

A better analogy may be like the strings on a guitar. They're seemingly separate, but when it comes to music, they're related in different ways on different levels. If you remove one string, you can still play your song, but it's going sound a bit off. People may come and pay to hear that certain song; some of them may think, "If it doesn't sound right, then what's the point?"

 

You could try imagine playing that string at the right times, but for some people, it just wouldn't cut it.

 

But I shall defend their right to make crappy endings as long as the rest of the game is great. Also as in most Video Games choice is a illusion, but only BioWare is held to the higher standard.

 

Choices in real life are illusions too, but they're still important :p and I certainly don't hold BioWare to any higher standard.

 

I really think as gamers, we have to start demanding better writing in the narrative-focused games we play. Too often, video game narrative quality lags badly behind that of other media. Improvement, or at least recursively consistent quality, is a valid expectation for any artisan endeavour, regardless of the creator.

 

And don't forget, that narrative is the most relatable aspect of video games to the general public, than any other part. The general quality of game narrative has the potential to make or break public opinion of our medium, and whether it gets taken seriously.

 

For example, before it was released, L.A. Noire was shown at the Tribeca Film Festival; the first video game to be featured there. It didn't happen because 'the guns felt amazing to use', it happened because of Noire's then-groundbreaking characterization technology, artistic vision, and quality of narrative.

 

 

When it comes to Mass Effect 3, I think it's reasonable to expect a high standard of story quality because:

-Bioware explicitly promised it

-It's a narrative intensive game

-We've paid Bioware a boatload of money for it

-It's 2012; 40 years into the history of popularized video games

 

I think it's reasonable to hold Bioware to a higher standard because:

-Bioware is a self-described story-focused game company*

-They've done better previously

 

*If someone calls themselves a musician, you immediately hold them to a higher standard than any random guy off the street.

 

As for gamers not caring about story in story-games,

"If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always got."

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