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Joe Paterno, 85, dies in State College PA


Darth_Calo
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^^^ Typical. Trolling troll is a troll. This is Ahto, not Kavar's.

 

I understand your perspective, and yet find it hard to believe your lack of perspective.

 

Do I find what he "allowed" to go on with Sandusky repugnant? Certainly. Do I blame him for not speaking out against it after nothing happened after he did tell his superiors about it? Yes I do.

 

Does that mean that Joe Paterno was therefore a de facto POS who contributed nothing positive? You can decide that one....

 

I for one, have a tremendous amount of perspective about sexual child abuse. I was abused. Do I hate Joe Paterno for what he "did"? Nope. I find it sad that I no longer think of him in the exalted light of a legendary figure from a game I love, and feel a sadness for his family. Dying of a broken heart is a tough way to go.

Edited by Qui-Gon Glenn
clarifying the actual location of this thread
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I understand your perspective, and yet find it hard to believe your lack of perspective.

 

Do I find what he "allowed" to go on with Sandusky repugnant? Certainly. Do I blame him for not speaking out against it after nothing happened after he did tell his superiors about it? Yes I do.

 

Does that mean that Joe Paterno was therefore a de facto POS who contributed nothing positive? You can decide that one....

 

I for one, have a tremendous amount of perspective about sexual child abuse. I was abused. Do I hate Joe Paterno for what he "did"? Nope. I find it sad that I no longer think of him in the exalted light of a legendary figure from a game I love, and feel a sadness for his family. Dying of a broken heart is a tough way to go.

This is a guy who spent his life screaming at his players to give 110%, then couldn't even muster a .1% effort to stop someone from raping children, or following up on it. When he decided to bask in the attention of the rioters instead of telling them that he was wrong and that they should stop breaking things, that certified his position as a defacto POS. His "positive contributions" amount to being a college football coach, I'm sure the abuse victims will take heart in knowing that some other guys got to play a little football, whoopty doo.

 

Dying of a broken heart is a tough way to go.

I've been pretty gentle about everything else but this is hilarious. Of course the notion that he died because they took Football away from him seems pretty spot on, as he obviously didn't care about anything else at all.

Edited by Samnmax221
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This is a guy who spent his life screaming at his players to give 110%, then couldn't even muster a .1% effort to stop someone from raping children, or following up on it.
I agree that he did not do enough! I am not lauding the man. He did what the minimum requires - he told his superiors. How involved really do you think Joe Paterno was in his football program the last 20 years? He was a mascot as much as anything, and a figurehead. The coaching was done by his assistants, including Sandusky. Another coach was the actual eye-witness... where do you put him on the road to Styx? Before or after Paterno? Remember this: Paterno and Sandusky had been coaching together a long time. Assuming that Paterno was not complicit in the rapes, it would follow that he was not even aware of them. When it came to his attention, he had already been working side-by-side with this man for years, and trusted him, certainly more than he would a young assistant making claims about his old friend. If you want to blame him for being blind... I guess we should all line up. I have been fooled before. Maybe you haven't?
When he decided to bask in the attention of the rioters instead of telling them that he was wrong and that they should stop breaking things, that certified his position as a defacto POS.
He was "fired" by receiving a note on his desk. The man was in shock, and a tailspin, at age 85. Does that excuse his inaction after the second-hand-hearsay report he filed with the AD and President? No. That's why I can no longer remember him in any great light. He was too trusting. He believed in his coaches too much. Certifiable POS? Not in my book. A human who trusted to much and failed.
His "positive contributions" amount to being a college football coach, I'm sure the abuse victims will take heart in knowing that some other guys got to play a little football, whoopty doo.
In your far from humble opinion, being a football coach is nearly valueless (ever play?), and he intentionally was keeping secrets and seemingly taking some pleasure in the suffering of these children.

Dying of a broken heart is a tough way to go.

I've been pretty gentle about everything else but this is hilarious. Of course the notion that he died because they took Football away from him seems pretty spot on, as he obviously didn't care about anything else at all.

Don't be concerned with gentleness with me. I am not impressed or dismayed by your vacuous argument. You come, as usual, with anger and a singular point of view, offering nothing superior or without flaw. Bring the heavy stuff big dog.

 

His broken heart, since I used that term, was due to the shock and awe of what was transpiring around him, seeing his legacy disintegrate before his eyes, and being turned away by the institution he had devoted his life to. Football was going to end for Paterno one way or the other, sooner rather than later. That is why the lost legacy was crushing, again IMO. Having to look at his family, his own son and grandchildren, and say "I failed you, I failed Penn State, and they turned me out as they should." Self-flagellation is one term for it.

 

A lot of that is my conjecture Sam. Some of it is having been involved with football as a player for 8 years in HS and later University for a BCS program in the same conference as PSU. I know players that played for him, and they are a mixture of angry shocked and sad too. I am aware of the generational gap only finally closing - where the ruling age at last recognizes that the stuff we once swept under the rug because it was just too ugly, can no longer be hidden. It must be confronted. Joe Paterno failed to trust his junior assistant enough to do the right thing and fire Sandusky. He failed to stop things soon enough. He just failed... And I can forgive him for that.

 

I will never believe that it shows any class, compassion, or even real understanding, to say "Good riddance, you bastard." Tough talk.

 

Edit: Ok... You were born when I was a junior in HS. You will hate less as you grow up.

Edited by Qui-Gon Glenn
Ah, now I get it.
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Joe Paterno did a lot of great things for Penn State University only to have his legacy tarnished with allegations of child abuse within the program. Everything he built suddenly became a afterthought, distant memory. Two national championships, winning every major bowl game of the time (Orange, Rose, Fiesta, Sugar and Cotton (yes, the Cotton was once a major bowl). He also had four more unbeaten teams that did not win the national championship. However, all of that got washed to the side under the allegations.

 

Is that fair? I have no clue without knowing what Joe Paterno knew and when. The only person that could ever answer that question was Joe Paterno.

 

Maybe once the sensationalism dies down and Sandusky get his due (whatever that is), people will remember the coach and not the coward that thought protecting the university was more important than protecting the kids Sandusky allegedly abused.

 

RIP Joe Paterno, if that is possible.

 

If you cannot tell, while I respect Joe Paterno as a coach (at least up until this year), I did not like him.

 

 

The reason:

 

He was 3 and 2 against the Texas Longhorns in his career.

 

1997 PSU 38 – Texas 15

1990 PSU 13 – Texas 17

1989 PSU 16 – Texas 12

1984 PSU 3 – Texas 28

1972 PSU 30 – Texas 6

Edited by mimartin
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When it came to his attention, he had already been working side-by-side with this man for years, and trusted him, certainly more than he would a young assistant making claims about his old friend.

 

He believed those claims enough to report it to his bosses. He then chose not to follow up on what his bosses decided to do about such serious allegations, even when it was obvious they were being ignored (The fact that the assistant didn't get fired for slandering Sandusky would indicate to anyone that the allegations weren't found false). The young assistant, though contemptible, at least has the excuse that he could lose everything if he questioned the bosses' decisions. Joe Paterno, on the other hand, had enough pull that he could possibly have changed the administrations' minds, and at the very least he would be more likely to be believed if he told someone outside the college staff.

 

Instead, he just made his report and continued as he was, absolving himself of any moral responsibility. I have nothing but contempt for people who do that at the best of times, and when it involves the abuse of many children, my feelings get a lot more negative than just contempt.

 

In your far from humble opinion, being a football coach is nearly valueless (ever play?)

 

I didn't play football, but the sport I did do (and still do for fun), I did at an international level. I take athletic activities extremely seriously, probably more seriously than anyone on this forum, since both my job and life have depended on my physical fitness. My coaches had more impact on my life than pretty much anyone but my parents.

 

However, being a great coach is absolutely insignificant if one purposely avoids checking up on plausible claims of child rape, and by doing so allows it to continue. The idea that being a great football coach somehow means that despite covering up the rape of children, he's a flawed person, not a genuinely bad one, is utterly repugnant. He didn't even have the decency to apologize, instead choosing to claim that he "tried to do the right thing", when he did as little as the bureaucracy would allow, when he had the capability to do far more. This refusal to even admit that what he did was wrong is what really cements his position as a POS for me.

 

TL;DR : Actively choosing to do far less than you can, when so much is at stake, then making excuses when you get called on it is not "just fail[ing]". Paterno would consider a player who did that during a game a terrible athlete. For doing that in life, I consider him a terrible person.

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I'm sure the guy did a lot of good things for Penn State and for that I credit him what credit is due. He was dedicated to the sport. Only coach so far to reach 400 victories, certainly not an achievement to sniff at.

 

On the other side of the coin, I think he was a complicit, weak willed, pathetic swill, lame excuse for a man. If I'd have walked in on something such that he did, I wouldn't care if it was my best friend doing that, I'd ****ing kill him for it. This man, Paterno, ceded his obligation on ethical and moral levels on that level so far as I am concerned. He simply told the superiors and went back to the same-old-same-old. A corrupt system which his friend obviously knew how to work. The questions about Paterno are: What did he know? When did he know it? For how long has this pattern of behavior been going on?

 

Tell ya what, if this was in mexico, just look up "child molester impaled with a cactus in Mexico". While not totally involved, I don't imagine that a complicit do-nothing like Paterno would be looked upon much more favorably by a mob of 50 angry parents.

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I don't think that Paterno is known to have witnessed anything personally. It was that redheaded junior assistant who allegedly did, and told Paterno about it.

 

But, yeah, their not following up and going to the authorities was freaking heinous.

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Oh really? Well, Paterno still don't rank too high in my book. Yeah, bias speaking and perhaps guilt by association but he at least had to have known something was up.

 

So far as the red headed assistant guy, someone ought to pull out the ugly stick and beat him like the stepchild he is--IFF the allegations are true. If not I hope for his sake he wasn't complicit.

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I thought Paterno reported it to the person in charge of the Campus Police. Not sure about Pennsylvania, but for a Texas state school that is the same as reporting it to the State Police.

 

What I find most troubling about Paterno in all of this is after that Sandusky was still allowed around the program with children. That was something completely under Paterno's control.

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I'm really sorry Darth Calo, I know this isn't Kavar's, but this discussion is inevitable, since i

 

I thought Paterno reported it to the person in charge of the Campus Police. Not sure about Pennsylvania, but for a Texas state school that is the same as reporting it to the State Police.

 

He reported it to the athletic director, and the senior VP for finance and business (who apparently had some oversight over the campus police). The only action they took was to forbid Sandusky from bringing children from the Second Mile charity to the football building. In other words "do what you want with the kids, just don't do it in our building". When these were the only consequences, the right thing to do would be to report it to someone without an interest in avoiding scandal.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Don't get me wrong, I think Paterno was a genuinely bad person, but he's nowhere near the worst of the people involved. His death makes me think nothing of value was lost, but I'm not actively happy about it.

 

The athletic director and senior VP, who pretty much gave Sandusky permission to rape kids anywhere but on their property, are significantly worse. They are legitimately evil people, and I would love to read their obituaries. This isn't vindictiveness, hate, or rage, whether you consider those concepts immature or not. I just happen to take happiness from any improvement of the world, and less evil people is a net improvement to the world, by my (completely subjective, as any ethical ideas are) standards of moral mathematics.

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He reported it to the athletic director, and the senior VP for finance and business (who apparently had some oversight over the campus police).
If by "some oversight" you mean the person in charge of the campus police department, then I would agree with you. :xp:

 

Focus anger on the program and redhead.

Why not focus the anger on the person that abused the children? Jerry Sandusky.

 

The redhead, was only a graduate assistant, basically a kid himself, here he is dealing with the head football coach (at the time a living legend), the president of the University and a VP. He had to figure these men knew what they were doing and would do what was best to protect the children and the university. He was worried too about his future when it was just starting.

 

I put the blame on Sandusky most of all, but the President and VP who put the reputation of the University above the well-being of the abused kids are not far behind. Yes, Paterno could have done more and should have done more, but the graduate assistant was put in a very difficult situation and I look at him with the sympathy not anger. He did the right thing (yes, he could have done more) and now he is being villainized by both side. He didn't do enough or he brought down our legend of a coach.

Edited by mimartin
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Yeah, I'm actually with mim regarding McQueary. He's one of the few involved I believe to be only a coward, not a bad person. While I wouldn't call a 27 year old a kid, he was far below everyone else involved on the power ladder. He reported it to the people with the power to stop things, and even when it became clear that the right thing hadn't been done, there wasn't much he could do about it (Unlike Paterno, who had enough reputation to really make a difference if he had chosen to). Even if he had gone public, it would be his word against that of people with far greater reputations. He could easily have been ruined. The only way he could guarantee an end to the abuse would be if he had killed Sandusky, which would effectively end his own life, since murder sentences are long, and getting a job isn't going to be easy with a serious criminal record.

 

Yes, he put self preservation ahead of the welfare of children. Yes, that is not a brave thing to do. No, it is not evil. Few people are really willing to risk their entire future for the sake of others. Focusing anger on McQueary, instead of the people who could have definitely made a difference at no risk to themselves, is an awful thing to do. Few of the people attacking him have ever risked everything they hold dear for the sake of strangers, which makes them rather hypocritical.

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While I wouldn't call a 27 year old a kid, he was far below everyone else involved on the power ladder.

Yeah, I was thinking he was a little younger as a graduate assistant, I would not put him as a kid either. However, he still was a noob when it came to the inter-workings of program/campus politics. So I still stand by my point. ;)

Edited by mimartin
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Dying of a broken heart is a tough way to go.

Well, actually, he died of lung cancer, diagnosed last November, and this is pretty much a 'you get to live maybe a few weeks to months more' prognosis when you're 85. When he broke his pelvis a few weeks later, it indicated to me a high probability of metastasis and that he had very little time left.

 

Did he do a lot of good for the college? Sure. He's put a lot of his money back into the university (donations to library and so on). He put a lot of wins on the table for Penn State. He also covered for a friend who was molesting young boys (we're talking age 10 and 11 here--not only psychologically harming them but probably permanently physically harming them, too). Some things are too horrid to ignore. He put protecting the university--or his friend--above protecting innocent kids. That is going to be part of his legacy, as much as his storied wins. The way the university fired him was horrible--sending a courier over with a phone number to call, and then someone telling him 'you're fired' over the phone. The university could have at least had the courage to talk to him in person.

 

I don't know if I could live with the burden that Paterno had to live with the last few years of his life knowing what his friend had done--and was continuing to do.

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