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How to argue about Star Wars movies the right way!


Darth Groovy
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I think the pod racer sequence is AMAZING, absolutely stunning... but as a sequence in terms of it fitting into the larger movie? Totally out of place and completely stalls the movie to the point where you forget for a while that they're on an adventure to save Naboo.

 

I mean, this is before the extended version we got in the home video version, even the theatrical version went a bit too long and ended up bringing the story to a stand-still.

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For me the music has always stood out... one of John Williams' best work for sure.

 

Other than that there are a few moments (even nostalgic ones) that I really like in the PT, but I still pretty much agree with the Red Letter Media reviews. Call me jaded but yeah, that's the way she goes :horn:

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You mean like your one opinion?

 

I didn't present my opinion as a generalization.

 

I get that it's my opinion, but I'm saying that enough people say that it's stupid for it to be seen as... generally stupid.

 

How much is enough? You can find a good amount of people on both sides of the debate.

 

the point is that it's an element of the prequels that haven't helped its popularity... or lack thereof. You can micro-debate with me all you want, but in the end, it's one of the small things that didn't help the prequels... and there are plenty of other things about the prequels that compound its lack of popularity compared to the original trilogy and why people don't want the sequel trilogy to turn out like the prequels.

 

But I never argued what helped or didn't help the popularity of the prequels. I'm arguing if the criticism is valid or not. And most of it (regarding midi-chlorians) comes from a complete misunderstanding and mishearing of what's actually stated in the movie and ignoring what's also been established in the OT. TPM is not trying to explain what the Force is (that was already done in the OT) and midi-chlorians are not the Force. It's fallacious to claim that the OT is all mysticism and the PT is all scanners and biology when they are completely different issues. One is not replacing the other. They both complement each other.

 

I love Star Wars for the way it is. It's a truly entertaining saga, and while there are obviously mistakes/mishaps, I don't think any less of any of the movies because I take them as entertainment more than anything else.

 

Just like when people bash Indy 4, I just have to wonder...have people just forgotten how to have FUN at the movies?

 

In my opinion, it's a mix of cynicism from adulthood and nostalgia goggles regarding the previous movies. Indy 4 is not my favourite of the series (Raiders remains #1), but criticizing aliens and atomic bombs while at the same time gladly accepting magic arks full of spirits and ghosts of crusaders screams of hipocrisy.

 

Then no one should ever critique anything and just enjoy everything just for what it is.

 

Nobody is saying that.

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In my opinion, it's a mix of cynicism from adulthood and nostalgia goggles regarding the previous movies. Indy 4 is not my favourite of the series (Raiders remains #1), but criticizing aliens and atomic bombs while at the same time gladly accepting magic arks full of spirits and ghosts of crusaders screams of hipocrisy.

 

That's exactly how I see it. I just feel like the people who grew up watching Star Wars/Indiana Jones...grew up! In this day and age of the internet, it's so easy for people to jump on board criticizing and tearing apart a movie piece by piece instead of just enjoying an adventure for what it is.

 

Were there some truly /facepalm-worthy moments in TPM and Indy 4? Sure. But at the end of the day, I look at the fans that absolutely LOVED the prequels (and things like The Clone Wars), and I notice that it's almost always children.

 

At the end of the day, I get that Star Wars is the best saga out there because it can appeal to just about everyone young or old...but we all need to remember that the reason why Star Wars was so damn fun in the first place was because it took us to a universe that we had never seen before. Just remember how you felt the first time that the Star Destroyer came over the screen - it was terrifying and exciting all at the same time. It was truly a sensational overload - it was FUN!

 

Maybe we're just so numb to the special effects these days because by the time Episodes II and III were released, they weren't groundbreaking like they had been; then, as a result, our focus was on the story - while still a great story in my mind, it's one that has been told many, many times before (as Lucas intended in the first place).

 

I don't know, maybe I'm just giving it too much credit, but I think that the criticisms of Lucas' fading abilities are overstated more often than not, and I think that we, the audience, were the ones that changed. Is it the fault of Lucas that he did not alter his vision to cater to a more mature/cynical audience? Possibly. But at the same time, I wouldn't have asked Stanley Kubrick to change his vision to appeal to a far less cynical/conservative crowd back when he made A Clockwork Orange.

 

Just something to ponder - pretty much how I keep all the complaints and critiques in context. There are plenty of valid points about the problems with the prequels AND original trilogy, but I think that some people just get on a roll and forget that the movie is supposed to be fun.

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I didn't present my opinion as a generalization.

Neither did I, I just represented my opinion as my own and pointed out that there are plenty of other people who see it the same way. If you want evidence that the pt isn't as popular as the ot, it's all already out there. What your agenda seems to be is to point out that the people who don't like the pt for whatever reason have invalid opinions of it.

 

 

How much is enough? You can find a good amount of people on both sides of the debate.

Not really, it's pretty easy to see that the scales are weight in the original trilogy's favour inside and outside star wars fandom. I'm not saying there's no love for the pt, just that there.

 

 

But I never argued what helped or didn't help the popularity of the prequels. I'm arguing if the criticism is valid or not. And most of it (regarding midi-chlorians) comes from a complete misunderstanding and mishearing of what's actually stated in the movie and ignoring what's also been established in the OT. TPM is not trying to explain what the Force is (that was already done in the OT) and midi-chlorians are not the Force. It's fallacious to claim that the OT is all mysticism and the PT is all scanners and biology when they are completely different issues. One is not replacing the other. They both complement each other.

If there are so many people who have failed to grasp it then it's obviously a failure of the movie maker to convey the meaning of it, thus resulting its inclusion as a failure. If your movie audience ends up looking at a concept as stupid, be it midichlorians, atomic blasted fridges or inter-dimensional aliens, it's the failure of the execution and presentation of those things.

 

I can imagine a world in where Lucas did masterfully present midichlorians in such a way that they don't seem stupid. There are plenty of fantastic and overly unrealistic things that happen in movies and things that are said which make no sense or are hard to swallow or contradict or have an affect on things said before in the movie or movie series, and if it's done well, we can believe them because we're there to see fantasy, things that aren't real, our unconscious mind knows this.

 

Midichlorians weren't done well and failed as a concept and because of this people ended up saying "wait a minute, this doesn't make sense with what I know of the Force and it seems pretty stupid in the context its presented"

 

If people misunderstand or "just don't get it" or whatever the excuse is that a lot of people throw around for fiction when it comes to situations like this. Is it the audiences fault? Perhaps it is if it's a niche artsy hipster movie, but no, it's Star Wars. This is a movie that's meant to be universal in its approach and if there are plenty of people who there that end up having problems with it, be it midichlorians or how the pod race sequence stalls the movie (but would have made an awesome episode of The Clone Wars now that I think about it...) ...it's a failure of the movie makers and something that diminishes the overall quality of the movie.

 

 

Nobody is saying that.

Seemed like urluckyday was, though it could be that he didn't present what he said with enough context I suppose so when I read it I had mistaken what he said with a meaning he didn't mean... perhaps, like midichlorians. ;)

 

 

 

 

 

And as I keep saying, I watch all of the Star Wars movies over and over and each time I do, I watch them and enjoy them all. In that moment I'm having fun, just like in the moment I'm playing every game I play, I have fun. But afterward, when I think about that game or think about the movie, I'm going to THINK. No one can stop me from thinking further about those movies and have my brain automatically think "wait, something about that didn't feel right"... we all have that feeling and a lot of us end up wanting to talk about it and express it in some way to see if other people didn't feel right about certain elements of it too.

 

It's not that the entire world has suddenly become unfun cynics that can't enjoy movies any more, it's that we've created a form of media that is able to bring the individuals thoughts to the wider world much more easily than could ever have been achieved in the past and then debating about it.

 

In the end, this isn't a case about whether midichlorians made sense or not, it's about whether I bought it or not compared to whether you bought it or not and whether or not either of us really like the movie or not to get one of us to the point of defending it tooth and nail every time someone even mentions it in passing.

 

My criticism isn't invalid, it's just has no basis for you, because you like TPM enough to forgive it for whatever faults it has and ignore them, and you've accepted what the movie presents and don't see whatever it's showing as a fault to begin with. But when other people do... that's not invalid.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Furthermore, I know what position you're in, because I'm in the same position with certain other movies and games where they're critically panned as being stupid or not anywhere near as good as they should be or are just plan crappy to begin with. I love plenty of stuff that the majority of other people don't like, think is stupid, didn't make any connections with... and whenever anyone talks about why the thing i like is stupid and doesn't make sense and is just a bad movie/game... it's pretty obvious that they're right in terms of a mass appeal context. But for me, I enjoyed the hell out of Dead Space 3 and played hours upon hours of it alone and in co-op mode despite it being thoroughly hated by the majority of everyone else and heavily criticized on all front. The funny thing is that all of the criticisms that the game got are valid, every single one of them... but I forgive whatever anyone else can't swallow from the game and love DS3 just as much as 1 and 2 even though very few other people can't.

 

That's just the way it goes.

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Well I see my reputation as "hot topic starter" has not been tarnished! Good points here...one of the best discussions I have seen in years. All of you make very good points with carefully placed bullet points. Good on ALL of you!

 

Now to answer some questions and comments:

 

When people attack the prequels, my response isn't normally to defend them. I really don't think the Prequels feel very consistent with the OT. As for your argument, I can't really follow what you're saying that well. Are you defending the entire saga, or just one of the prequels? It sort of reads less like defending Star War's, and more like excusing its faults.

 

The main issue I have with the prequel's story is the "Chosen One" plot. I feel like it just doesn't sync up with the Luke/Leia/Vader plots in the OT at all.

 

I am glad you asked this! I apologize it was really late at night when I wrote that and I was starting to drift off. Let me explain. My point was not to defend or excuse the faults. There are many of them indeed. My point is that in many arguments, a great deal of what people complain about are things that make the movies what they are. AND at what point, do you make changes enough to where it is no longer a Star Wars story, but something else entirely? For example, some people criticize the story for being juvenile. In a multi generational modern day myth, you are telling the story of archetypes that encompass good and evil, right and wrong, light and dark. Those stories have been passed down over generations of cultures all over the world throughout history. If we made it dark...and about science....now it is Aliens, or Prometheus. The Star Wars is intended to be more of a fairy tale, than a science fiction film.

 

That's actually not true. The Force was already explained in ANH by Kenobi and in TESB by Yoda (the latter even states how it's created) and didn't cease to be a "mysterious" energy field created by all living things just because of the existence of midi-chlorians. Midi-chlorians are merely the link between a living being and the Force (and what allows one to communicate with it), not the Force itself. The more you have, the more attuned you are (thus less training and effort is required to tap into the Force). Not only that, but it explains why Luke and Leia are Ben and Yoda's "last hope" and corroborates what's said by Luke in RotJ:

 

"The Force is strong in my family."

 

 

 

But they did show Qui-Gon "having a feeling about the boy through some mysterious unexplained feeling". But Anakin was more than a Force-sensitive child and only later does Qui-Gon asks Obi-Wan for a midi-chlorian test. I really don't see the problem with the existence of a biological way that allows one to communicate with the Force. And as mentioned in the film itself, it requires time and training to "hear them speaking to you".

 

Again glad you brought up the midi-chlorian thing, because people have been bitching about that online ever since TPM came out.

 

In all the problems with the prequels this bothers me the least. It was mentioned in the novelization by Terry Brooks (which is superior to the film in my opinion, because it portrays Annakin as more of a disturbed tragic figure than the film ever did.) and like you pointed out...it simply bridges the gap between the living force and life forms in general. However for the sake of argument THIS is a GREAT example of why you don't mix science with a fairy tale. The same thing would have happened in the OT if we had spent the same amount of time explaining to the audience the mechanics of light sabers, or how hyper space is even possible. We introduced midi-chlorians into the works, and it just pissed most people off. We never really explained why some Jedi disappear and others have to be burned either....I mean not really if you think about it.

 

Keep it coming guys.....this is great podcast material too!

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Oh, the whole midi-chlorian thing. From my understanding is that the reason why it ruined Star Wars for many is because a lot of people had this misunderstanding that anybody could be a Jedi and when the whole midi-chlorian thing came into play, it ruined some people's imagination.

 

But what they don't understand is that the Force and how strong it is with some was always implied to be a genetic thing.

 

Like this scene between Luke and Yoda:

 

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Then this scene by Luke and Obi-Wan:

 

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The only way Luke could be a threat is if he was strong in the Force and imply that he is unique:

 

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Again, the Force was always a genetic thing and the midi-chlorians just explained the biological part of it.

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The midichlorian thing never really bothered me. Whether it's a retcon or it actually fits within the mythology, I feel that this is one of (more than) a few minor things that bothered people about the prequels, but detract from the real issue of the prequels, which for me personally is pretty simple:

 

It didn't have the magic from the original trilogy. It's a pretty vague concept to pass judgement on movies with, I know, but I feel the things that made the OT so great were lacking in the PT. The adventurous nature of the OT, I feel, became lost in a story of Trade Federations and elections and trade blockades in TPM and AotC and RotS were more concerned with a love story and giving us so much lightsabers and pew pew and Yoda ballet dancing that it missed the opportunity of giving us the Anakin-Obi Wan buddy adventure that was alluded to even in the movies itself.

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Neither did I, I just represented my opinion as my own and pointed out that there are plenty of other people who see it the same way.

 

I'm not arguing that. But you did present the opinion of your mother as proof that the concept as failed. It doesn't prove anything.

 

What your agenda seems to be is to point out that the people who don't like the pt for whatever reason have invalid opinions of it.

 

What? Where did you get that from? People can like or dislike midi-chlorians as much as they want. My point was that the arguments I hear against the whole concept are based on misinterpretation of what's in the movie.

 

If there are so many people who have failed to grasp it then it's obviously a failure of the movie maker to convey the meaning of it, thus resulting its inclusion as a failure.

 

I don't see the correlation. If some (fortunately not all) people failed to grasp it, even when the movies are clear on the explanation of what midi-chlorians are and their respective function, I don't see how it can be blamed on the filmmaker.

 

If your movie audience ends up looking at a concept as stupid, be it midichlorians, atomic blasted fridges or inter-dimensional aliens, it's the failure of the execution and presentation of those things.

 

Or double standards and false assumptions.

 

Midichlorians weren't done well and failed as a concept and because of this people ended up saying "wait a minute, this doesn't make sense with what I know of the Force and it seems pretty stupid in the context its presented"

 

Some people. Again, no need for generalizations.

 

My criticism isn't invalid, it's just has no basis for you, because you like TPM enough to forgive it for whatever faults it has and ignore them, and you've accepted what the movie presents and don't see whatever it's showing as a fault to begin with. But when other people do... that's not invalid.

 

I present my arguments based on what's said on the movies, wether I like the movie (or in this case, midi-chlorians) or not is irrelevant. My appreciation for the movies has nothing to do with "forgiving its faults" or "ignoring them". I don't have a problem with people not liking something. That's fine, I respect that and they are not right or wrong for that. But we are not discussing taste, we are arguing why the subject that's being discussed is perceived as a problem or contradiction by some. And that's not a matter of opinion or taste, but facts. What you see as a fault seems to be based on a misconception that is never stated in the movies. Midi-chlorians are not the Force nor they measure your Force power. To say that they make the Force less mysterious is wrong since the Force was never explained in the PT.

 

THIS is a GREAT example of why you don't mix science with a fairy tale.

 

But hasn't Star Wars always done that? Sure, more with visuals than with dialogue, but it's there. I believe it was on the DVD commentary that Lucas said that he always struggled to introduce such concepts. He tended to make such explanations like fortune cookies, but I really don't see any other way he could have introduce it and be as quick and simple a possible on its explanation.

 

P.S: I apologize if anyone reads my posts in the wrong tone. It's not my intention, but it can happen on "hot topics". :)

Edited by Alexrd
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I cannot believe how any one can defend some of the utter awfulness in the Prequels, are they ok movies? - yes, do they entertain? - yes. Are they anywhere near as good as the OT? No. Some of you seem to be in a frankly weird denial about why the prequels don't have major issues - they do. Period.

 

I can't link because of the adult content, but youtube redlettermedia Star Wars prequels and watch the videos to see what is wrong with all the prequels...

 

As for my opinions;

 

All the prequels suffer from a lack of characterization and too much of Lucas thinking oooohhhh with all my CGI I can do this, this and this, ironically I think the special effects in the OT look better than all the blue and green screen crap in the PT. The biggest problem is the Prequels have a bunch of charachters in that I don't really care about - Qui-Gon dies, but even as a kid I didn't care much, I think Mace Windu's death is the only one in the whole PT that had any emotional impact, and even that was mitigated by him not acting like a Jedi.

 

What's wrong with TPM - biggest problem; it has no main charachter, can anyone tell me who the main charachter is? If it's Obi-Wan why is he missing for large portions of the film? If it's Anakin why are we not introduced until 45mins in? Lets not even talk about freaking accidentally blowing a whole star ship up. If it's Padme why does she spend the whole film being boring as hell and pretending to be a servant. If it's Qui-Gon whats the freaking point considering he dies? The next issue is that stupid pod race, TPM pacing doesn't work - it seems to me Lucas wanted a pod race and then made a really convulted plot to include it which just spoiled the whole film.

 

AotC - Jane Austen in space, with charachters we don't like and horrific dialogue. "The Clone Wars" - Seriously, I think all of us wanted to see them, it's Star WARS, not Star LOVE. Also more Space politics we don't care about, and more boring dialogue I could watch on the politics channel if I really wanted. Also Anakin is a complete idiot, I don't really care about his fall later in RotS because he's a total tool. Also would you seriously fall in love with some egit who slaughtered a whole tribe of women and children. Like its early in their relationship, if you went out with someone for two weeks and then they said by the way I'm a serial killer would you really still continue a relationship? Or report them to the freaking relevant authorities? Additionally Hayden Christianson was just an awful choice of actor; I'd vote Christian Bale personally. Lets not even go into the Clone army being created the Jedi saying they will put all their resources into investigating it and then... Completely forgetting about it and just going to war.

 

RotS. I hate this film the most. I also love it, for the fact the Emporer is amazing in it. I hate it as it ruins the twist "I am your father" in ESB, and also spoiled my visions of "Do not underestimate the powers of the Emporer or suffer your fathers fate, you will" - I'd always imagined Anakin and the Emporer fighting. As a kid I was captivated and shocked by the "father" reveal, how many kids have had that ruined by seeing the films in "order"?

 

Here's how it should of been done... Vader should of been the Emporers private assassin from the start, we see him in a proto Vader suit, assassinating various of the Chancellors enemies. Vader is shown to think this is good by aiding the republic... He also likes that he is gaining new powers - he could learn force choke for example on a mission.

 

Anakin is doing his Jedi Hero routine. We never see them togeather (like say Batman and Bruce Wayne). Anakin goes to confront the Emporer having figuered out he's a Sith, he gets his ass handed to him with lightning... And that's the last we see of him; he's presumed dead. The Emporer then orders Vader to attack the Jedi etc etc, so would of been saved until ESB for us to finally realize (if watched in chronological order) that Anakin and Vader are infact the same person, and gives a whole new twist on Anakins fall.

 

Yet another problem - totally inconsistant tone, this started with RotJ and the flipping teddy bears, but this gets ever more worse in the Prequels, on the one hand we have the super daft and stupid Jar-Jar, the totally stupid and goofy battle droids, then we have Anakin slaughtering women and children, and finally see him dismembered and burned alive. GL, what on earth were you thinking?

 

Finally Yoda should never hop around like some feral kitten high on speed. He also shouldn't draw a lightsaber, should just fight enemies with the Force. And he should of been the one to kill Grevious, Grevious should of been shown killing a few Jedi, then he fights Yoda, and Yoda just crushes him with the the ceiling...

 

(Could I of done a better job of the OT than Lucas, undeniably not. Could I of made the prequels a hell of a lot better, entertaining and coherant than they are... YES. Also if anyone tries to defend the new Indiana Jones film, I'm liable to think you completly devoid of any ability to discern a good film).

Edited by jonathan7
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There's often a trope that happens in some anime and Japanese made video games that I feel is appropriate to mention here... when there's something that isn't explained well in an anime or video game and people want to defend it, they usually say "read the manga"...

 

Midichlorians, I feel is a "read the manga" situation. Where something is explained/presented poorly in the context of the film/tv show/game that it is in.

 

 

 

There's also another factor to consider which no one has said but has been touched upon. Suspension of disbelief. We believe some outrageous things in movies but can't find ourselves believing other things which are equally as silly or less silly than the things the audience accepts. If you want to call that double standards and false assumptions, sure, it is since nothing in a movie is real, it's all fiction. But is it the viewers fault or the movie makers fault when they're not able to believe one part of the movie that's ridiculous yet believe another part of it? As much as you want to blame it on the viewer for not getting it, it really is the film makers fault for not explaining it or presenting in a way that can hold peoples suspension of disbelief.

 

I presented my mother as an example because I the Star Wars fan and her the non-Star Wars fan had the same thought about the same small part of the movie. But I'm not presenting my mother as an example of all people as you had assumed, simply that I had a personal experience that was my "wow" moment when I realised that Star Wars fans aren't exclusively the only ones who think about these kinds of things when they watch a Star Wars movie.

 

I may be wrong about midichlorians, I may be dead wrong and you know everything there is to know about Star Wars lore and how everything fits... but even if I'm wrong about midichlorians, I'm still right about it being one of the elements of the prequel trilogy that didn't fit very well in terms of presenting a movie to a mass audience. Midichlorians along with the pod race that stalled the movie, young Anakin's terrible acting, adult Anakin's rape face and yet more terrible acting, awkward romantic scenes, presenting the validity of your accusations, etc, etc, etc, made people question the content of the prequel trilogy to the point where they begin to notice the cracks.

 

And yes, the Original Trilogy has its flaws too, there's a lot of them if you look, but the great thing about the Original Trilogy, before Lucas decided to change them over and over again, was that they held peoples suspension of disbelief with such a firm grip that you miss the cracks in what appears to be a perfectly made trilogy of films.

 

This is the overall reason why the prequel trilogy is seen as the lesser trilogy when compared to the original trilogy by a the general public, and no, not because my mother said she thought midichlorians were silly... because you can go out and ask random people anywhere and the great majority of them who have any kind of thought on Star Wars will tell you that the original trilogy is better than the prequel trilogy.

 

And if you think that's an unfair generalisation that I shouldn't be making. Tough. Not everything you or I like can be popular with the masses.

 

The Prequel Trilogy isn't, Dead Space 3 isn't. We both have to deal with it.

 

 

 

And that's it, I'm not going to go over this any more so if you want to micro-quote/debate with this post and have the last word, fine by me, I'm not posting any more.

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And that's it, I'm not going to go over this any more so if you want to micro-quote/debate with this post and have the last word, fine by me, I'm not posting any more.

 

I'm posting not to have the last word, but to clarify some of your assumptions regading my posts and to reiterate that my point has nothing to do with people disliking what I like or vice versa. Everyone could hate what I like and I wouldn't have a problem with that because it's completely irrelevant to what's being discussed and I never made it part of my argument. And regarding micro-quoting, I just do it to better address an argument case by case (don't take it in the wrong tone :)).

 

There's often a trope that happens in some anime and Japanese made video games that I feel is appropriate to mention here... when there's something that isn't explained well in an anime or video game and people want to defend it, they usually say "read the manga"...

 

Midichlorians, I feel is a "read the manga" situation. Where something is explained/presented poorly in the context of the film/tv show/game that it is in.

 

Except the "manga" is the film itself. If someone wants to know what midi-chlorians are, all they have to do is watch the movie. If people still don't understand the concept or make assumptions that weren't there, I guess there is nothing that can be done about it.

 

But is it the viewers fault or the movie makers fault when they're not able to believe one part of the movie that's ridiculous yet believe another part of it?

 

If it's not an universal case, probably neither.

 

I presented my mother as an example because I the Star Wars fan and her the non-Star Wars fan had the same thought about the same small part of the movie. But I'm not presenting my mother as an example of all people as you had assumed, simply that I had a personal experience that was my "wow" moment when I realised that Star Wars fans aren't exclusively the only ones who think about these kinds of things when they watch a Star Wars movie.

 

But you did say that it was proof that the concept has failed. It can't be claimed as such when there is also a good amount of people (fans and casual viewers) who didn't have a problem with it.

 

I may be wrong about midichlorians, I may be dead wrong and you know everything there is to know about Star Wars lore and how everything fits... but even if I'm wrong about midichlorians, I'm still right about it being one of the elements of the prequel trilogy that didn't fit very well in terms of presenting a movie to a mass audience. Midichlorians along with the pod race that stalled the movie, young Anakin's terrible acting, adult Anakin's rape face and yet more terrible acting, awkward romantic scenes, presenting the validity of your accusations, etc, etc, etc, made people question the content of the prequel trilogy to the point where they begin to notice the cracks.

 

And yes, the Original Trilogy has its flaws too, there's a lot of them if you look, but the great thing about the Original Trilogy, before Lucas decided to change them over and over again, was that they held peoples suspension of disbelief with such a firm grip that you miss the cracks in what appears to be a perfectly made trilogy of films.

 

All I can say is: opinion noted. I have a different one.

 

This is the overall reason why the prequel trilogy is seen as the lesser trilogy when compared to the original trilogy by a the general public, and no, not because my mother said she thought midichlorians were silly... because you can go out and ask random people anywhere and the great majority of them who have any kind of thought on Star Wars will tell you that the original trilogy is better than the prequel trilogy.

 

Even if true, it's still irrelevant to what my argument was about.

 

Not everything you or I like can be popular with the masses.

 

Once again, I never argued that, it's a strawman. ;)

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I'm actually a big fan of TPM, but I've got to agree with the numbers, I've spoken to hundreds if not thousands of people about Star Wars over the years, Fans and non fans, and I'd say 90% think its the weakest of all 6 films, Jar Jar and Midichlorians being major reasons. but its really quite evident by just looking on the net.

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@ adamqd: I personally think AotC is the weakest of all since TPM did have its moments even if some of them were inconstantly and awkwardly placed within the rest of the movie. The Pod Race is awesome even if it does ruin the pacing of the film and the lightsaber fight between maul, qui-gonn and obi-wan is entertaining even if it is presented in a "and suddenly a sith appears and a lightsaber battle happens... because reasons."

 

But yeah, overall, it's not what I say as an individual that matters in terms of showing how popular these movies are. You're right in saying that you can simply look out into the net and other places to see what the general opinion is of the movies to gauge the popularity of the 6 movies next to each other and why some people like some of the movies more than others.

 

 

 

 

 

By the way... and I'm curious how people will respond. We all most likely have our personal list of favourite Star Wars movies, how would you rank the movies in terms of your most favourite to your least?

 

My list would be...

 

1. ESB

2. ANH

3. RotJ

4. RotS

5. TPM

6. AotC

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I cannot believe how any one can defend some of the utter awfulness in the Prequels, are they ok movies? - yes, do they entertain? - yes. Are they anywhere near as good as the OT? No. Some of you seem to be in a frankly weird denial about why the prequels don't have major issues - they do. Period.).
While I agree the PT were not that good, yet entertaining. The OT are just as bad just with better actors and the benefit of my childhood tinted glasses when originally watching them. The screen plays themselves were just as bad only you had Harrision Ford and less CGI.

 

Still bad Star Wars is better than 99.9% of the usual Hollywood fare.

 

By the way... and I'm curious how people will respond. We all most likely have our personal list of favourite Star Wars movies, how would you rank the movies in terms of your most favourite to your least?

 

Mine

 

1. Star Wars (I refuse to call it ANH)

2. ESB

3. RotS

4. ROTJ (limit the teddy bear and it would be higher)

5. AotC (it is higher than TPH, just because we see Yoda get some love)

6. TPM (remove the Yippees and it would be higher)

Edited by mimartin
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I kinda want in on the midichlorian argument, but I also don't want to. Lynk pretty much said everything I wanted to say. And I've been here long enough to learn that I (me only, y'all knock yourselves out with it) should avoid arguing with Alexrd.

 

I also saw someone mention the RedLetterMedia reviews. As crude as they are, and I also see a lot of hate on them, I do agree with them.

 

1. ESB

2. ANH

3. RotJ

4. RotS

5. AotC

6. TPM

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I cannot believe how any one can defend some of the utter awfulness in the Prequels, are they ok movies? - yes, do they entertain? - yes.

 

You could've ended your post right there. If we're entertained by a form of art that is intended to entertain, then what is wrong with me enjoying it?

 

I don't want anyone to think that they can't have an opinion about the movies good or bad. If you're critical as hell about the movies, that's all well and good (I may debate some of your points, but really, it's not skin off my back).

 

People constantly act like I should be embarrassed that I really like the prequels and that I also consider myself a huge Star Wars fan.

 

Is it possible that you're just in denial?

 

 

 

As for my list from favorite to least favorite:

 

1. Return of the Jedi

2. A New Hope

3. Empire Strikes Back

4. Revenge of the Sith

5. The Phantom Menace

6. Attack of the Clones

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There's often a trope that happens in some anime and Japanese made video games that I feel is appropriate to mention here... when there's something that isn't explained well in an anime or video game and people want to defend it, they usually say "read the manga"...

 

Midichlorians, I feel is a "read the manga" situation. Where something is explained/presented poorly in the context of the film/tv show/game that it is in.

 

 

 

There's also another factor to consider which no one has said but has been touched upon. Suspension of disbelief. We believe some outrageous things in movies but can't find ourselves believing other things which are equally as silly or less silly than the things the audience accepts. If you want to call that double standards and false assumptions, sure, it is since nothing in a movie is real, it's all fiction. But is it the viewers fault or the movie makers fault when they're not able to believe one part of the movie that's ridiculous yet believe another part of it? As much as you want to blame it on the viewer for not getting it, it really is the film makers fault for not explaining it or presenting in a way that can hold peoples suspension of disbelief.

 

I presented my mother as an example because I the Star Wars fan and her the non-Star Wars fan had the same thought about the same small part of the movie. But I'm not presenting my mother as an example of all people as you had assumed, simply that I had a personal experience that was my "wow" moment when I realised that Star Wars fans aren't exclusively the only ones who think about these kinds of things when they watch a Star Wars movie.

 

I may be wrong about midichlorians, I may be dead wrong and you know everything there is to know about Star Wars lore and how everything fits... but even if I'm wrong about midichlorians, I'm still right about it being one of the elements of the prequel trilogy that didn't fit very well in terms of presenting a movie to a mass audience. Midichlorians along with the pod race that stalled the movie, young Anakin's terrible acting, adult Anakin's rape face and yet more terrible acting, awkward romantic scenes, presenting the validity of your accusations, etc, etc, etc, made people question the content of the prequel trilogy to the point where they begin to notice the cracks.

 

And yes, the Original Trilogy has its flaws too, there's a lot of them if you look, but the great thing about the Original Trilogy, before Lucas decided to change them over and over again, was that they held peoples suspension of disbelief with such a firm grip that you miss the cracks in what appears to be a perfectly made trilogy of films.

 

This is the overall reason why the prequel trilogy is seen as the lesser trilogy when compared to the original trilogy by a the general public, and no, not because my mother said she thought midichlorians were silly... because you can go out and ask random people anywhere and the great majority of them who have any kind of thought on Star Wars will tell you that the original trilogy is better than the prequel trilogy.

 

And if you think that's an unfair generalisation that I shouldn't be making. Tough. Not everything you or I like can be popular with the masses.

 

The Prequel Trilogy isn't, Dead Space 3 isn't. We both have to deal with it.

 

 

 

And that's it, I'm not going to go over this any more so if you want to micro-quote/debate with this post and have the last word, fine by me, I'm not posting any more.

 

Interesting thought that just came to me...what would someone who saw Star Wars for the first time - in order through Episodes I-VI - think about midichlorians? I have a hard time believing that it would truly phase them...but again, I can't speak on that because I saw these movies as a kid in OT to PT order (like most/all of you).

 

I just think it's weird that I was 9 when I saw TPM in theaters after having grown up watching the unaltered OT video tapes, and I didn't have a heart-breaking moment where it came down to "oh no, the Force isn't mystical anymore!" It wasn't that I couldn't grasp the concept of what was explained, it was that the idea that there were only special people that could interact with the Force due to some predisposition (I'm sure I didn't think using those words lol).

 

It's just puzzling to me that people who most often make the assumptions that I'm in denial over something may just be in denial that the Force really comes down to a mystical force and genetics.

 

Just a thought though.

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As far as order goes: ESB, SW, RotS and ROJ are tied in 4th place (not a big fan of ewoks, or ROJ would edge out the other) AoC edges out TPM b/c the end of the Clone movie almost redeems the sappy love story crap. Jar Jar and the enemy droids secure TPM last place for me. As to midiclorians, I was basically nonplussed.

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My list is

 

  1. ESB
  2. ANH
  3. RotJ
  4. RotS
  5. AotC
  6. TPM

 

People always bring up nostalgia to detract from the OT, but honestly, I'm pretty young, I was watching the PT not long after the OT (well, Phantom Menace at least). And I did really enjoy the prequels when I was younger. Yet nowadays I don't feel the PT holds up like the OT does. That's not nostalgia.

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@ urluckyday: You're right, if someone young enough watched it in episode order with no knowledge of Star Wars beforehand, midichlorians wouldn't even register for them as an issue. But then, the lines "No, I am your father" and "Leia is my sister" would have no meaning or impact for them either since they already know that Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader and that Padme gave birth to the twins, Luke and Leia.

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It's hard to choose an Order because I don't really see them as separate stories, and mostly there is that little a difference in favoritism you could consider some on par, and even number six on the list is still better than most other films ever released. So if pushed, my list would go...

1: ESB

2: ROTJ

3: ROTS

4: AOTC

5: ANH

6: TPM

 

(Regarding my presumably blasphemous fifth choice, ANH just doesn't do it for me any more, maybe because I watched it 1138 times during the last 33 years, I'm not sure, I get it's significance, and I agree with its praise, it's just when I open the sleeve of my blu ray set, I always skip that disk)

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