WD_ToRMeNt Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Check this out. In 1.03, the alt FC1 and HR took 25 ammo units, in the source just released it's 15. So, it looks like Raven is actually listening to the community. Sweet. I'm actually starting to have faith in them again. Who knows if they'll officially release 1.04 or not, but at least we have an idea of what they're thinking. I wonder what other changes there are from 1.03 to the released source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 who knows the source intimately yet? ammo alone does not a good game make. im a little happier. (i know i (and by i, i mean we) am going to get screwd on absorb staying invisible) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_Rage Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Absorb was like this in JK1. As I got used to seeing it in JK2, it's alright that it's now invisible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPY_jmr1 Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 interresting.... wery interresting.... BUT GOOD! question: I am dling this updated pak now... is it somthing that mere mortals can understand, or is C++ blahblahblah king status a prerec? also, what was theammo useage level in 1.02? if its off of a old build vs. a new one...... it might not be hot stuff so much:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted June 1, 2002 Author Share Posted June 1, 2002 JK1 absorb is still stronger then JK2 absorb because in JK1 you couldn't hear it. Also, I found another intresting thing. Check out game_version.h in qcommon. It says 1.03a. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jipe Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 So, it looks like Raven is actually listening to the community. Sweet. I'm actually starting to have faith in them again. Wait.. when did they ever *stop* listening to the community? JO was released and people whined/complained/offered suggestions. Raven was listening, so they put out a patch. They're still listening.. at what point did they ignore the community? And yes, 1.03a is the newer version - part of the reason this tools release was held up was the decision to release with the 1.03a build or earlier builds, which might have screwed up coders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 jk1 revolved around force play and saber play. mainly divided into 2 camps, nf sabes and ff guns on oasis. the nature of force power and gun play in jk1 effectively eliminated sabers from that camp because it heavily relied on distance to be successfull. jk2 was designed to combine both camps. they did this by making a limit to the distance and ammo usage on strong weapons. secondary repeater distance limit, rocket speed and ammo limit for examples. however, in order to force people from using just force powers and guns, ala jk1, the vast majority of force powers are all short distance powers. all agressive powers that rely on force to damage or drain require a dark player to get down and nasty up close with their victim. bottom line: with a visible absorb it allowed a person to get up close to a light player without fear that a power that they were about to do would be useless. pull is essential in keeping sabers balanced with guns. pull only worked up close. in v1.02, you knew without hesitation (which could be honed into instictual action for some players) wheither pull would work or not. in ffa, with lots of things going on at once, hearing absorb becomes increasingly difficult depending on how much action is going on in the situation. due to the fact that absorb is invisible, a light gunner has an insanely greater advantage against a group of saberists, any one of which in 1.02 (with enough skill mind you. i was one of them) could take out the gunner and dispatch him in a fair although extremely fast paced sequence of instinctual actions. with invisible absorb, if you are a saberist, you are s-o-l. i think raven knew this and is why they nerfed the living crap out of the ammo. there is no point to invisible absorb other than to give light siders a redicilously greater advantage with guns and against all darksiders in general (who are intrinsically forced to get up close) anywhooooo yahoo for 1.04. lets hope ammo = goog guns again = visible absorb = everyone happy wheither they realize it or not Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nathan Wind Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Originally posted by jipe And yes, 1.03a is the newer version - part of the reason this tools release was held up was the decision to release with the 1.03a build or earlier builds, which might have screwed up coders. does that mean no patch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted June 1, 2002 Author Share Posted June 1, 2002 Ok, rage and made a mod out of the 1.03a source that was released. Basicaly we were playing the next patch. Here are some finer points... 1) The guns are un-nerfed a bit. 15 ammo units to fire alt hr or fc1. This is great news for gunners. 1.03a TDM/CTF will be worth playing again yay! 2) Overall the saberists get screwed I think. Heavy stance damage seems to have been increased, but the backstabs have been nerfed. It took like 3 blue backstabs to kill rage. 3) Pull/Push seemed to NEVER result in a knockdown. We tried and tried, but we played for 40 min and neither one of us was knocked down by push/pull. We both had push and pull maxed. 4) Heal and Drain are still nerfed to uselessness. Honestly, 2 and 3 could kill the last part of the competative saber community. Now is nothing do to but run around swinging saber. No combos, very little learning curve. They've completely changed the gameplay yet again. I can easly see many of the remaining duelists quiting. On the bright side, making the guns decent again will bring more life to the real competative players; the CTF/TDM players. I just hope it won't come to late to save JK2. Many have already moved to other games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted June 1, 2002 Author Share Posted June 1, 2002 Now that I think about it, Nerfing Pull/Push puts Light and Dark on more equal footing in duels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rionikuanjiru Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Actually the impact of force push on someone is dependant upon his rating in force pull, and vice-versa, so having it both maxed out would explain why neither of you ever got knocked down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted June 1, 2002 Author Share Posted June 1, 2002 Yes I thought about that. But you could still knock down with push/pull in 1.02 and 1.03 some one with pull/push maxed. I'll have to test it to how much of a dif it makes not to have them maxed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solo4114 Posted June 1, 2002 Share Posted June 1, 2002 Nathan, I gotta disagree with you on the absorb thing. Back in 1.02, yes, it's true that you knew exactly when someone had absorb on and when they didn't. You still can find out in 1.03, though. If you use a power on someone and they flash blue, then wait 'em out, just like you used to in 1.02. It's not as easy as it was in 1.02, but then again, in 1.02, absorb was basically worthless. All it did was give you an extra, say, 20 seconds of force-free action, when folks wouldn't spam you with lightning or grip or pull. Now, it's actually a gamble for darksiders and lightsiders alike to use powers on people, because you never know whether someone's got absorb on until you use your power on them. BUT, once you DO use your power on them, if you're observant enough, you'll be able to tell that they have absorb on. As long as you don't, say, lean on the key (IE: if you're using lightning or drain), you should be alright and your force will have regenerated by the time they're done absorbing. At the same time, their force will have decreased, so you'll be in a better position. Making absorb less visible, in my opinion, leveled the playing field. Prior to 1.03, the blue glow of absorb was just a "Don't bother wasting your force power on me" sign, and people would simply run around you and not attack until the glow wore off. Then they'd spam lightning or grip, or pull you, etc. Keep in mind, also, that absorb will NOT eliminate damage if someone uses a higher level of power against you. IE: if I have absorb 2 on and some guy fries me with lightning 3, I'll still take damage. Yes, I'll absorb his expended energy, but at the same time, my health is dropping VERY quickly. Too quickly to really counter, in fact. If I've got absorb 3, though, you'll be wasting your time on me, if you use force on me while I have absorb on. The simple solution is just to pay attention. Think about it this way. Absorb is the great equalizer. It essentially turns a battle into a test of sabre skills. Much like what you see in the final confrontation in Ep. II. Count Dooku could spam lightning all he wanted, but Yoda had absorb turned on. End result? We decide things with sabres, not force powers. Sometimes you can still catch people unawares, though, and fry them. Hell, I've had darksiders hit me with lightning 3 before I could get to the absorb key, and they took off a good chunk of health, giving them an advantage when things turned to sabres. However, I do see the frustration if you're a darksider and someone's got absorb turned on. Maybe the solution would be to have some effects leak through if you're at an even level, power-wise. IE: if I hit lightning 3 against an absorb 3 user, then I should at least be able to drain his shields, if not his health. Grip 3 vs. Absorb 3 should result in immobilization, but no loss of health. Drain 3 vs. Absorb 3 should be a stalemate. The drainer doesn't gain health, but the absorber doesn't gain force, either. You just kind of break even. Regardless, now that we have an SDK, I'm sure there will be mods for every style of play, and we'll no longer have to worry about Raven releasing patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
digl Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt Ok, rage and made a mod out of the 1.03a source that was released. Basicaly we were playing the next patch. Here are some finer points... 1) The guns are un-nerfed a bit. 15 ammo units to fire alt hr or fc1. This is great news for gunners. 1.03a TDM/CTF will be worth playing again yay! 2) Overall the saberists get screwed I think. Heavy stance damage seems to have been increased, but the backstabs have been nerfed. It took like 3 blue backstabs to kill rage. 3) Pull/Push seemed to NEVER result in a knockdown. We tried and tried, but we played for 40 min and neither one of us was knocked down by push/pull. We both had push and pull maxed. 4) Heal and Drain are still nerfed to uselessness. Honestly, 2 and 3 could kill the last part of the competative saber community. Now is nothing do to but run around swinging saber. No combos, very little learning curve. They've completely changed the gameplay yet again. I can easly see many of the remaining duelists quiting. On the bright side, making the guns decent again will bring more life to the real competative players; the CTF/TDM players. I just hope it won't come to late to save JK2. Many have already moved to other games. hmmm It's 1.03a, they'll probably listen to what we say now before releaseing 1.04. Did you notice the damage made by the red stance backsweep? Were the back moves still like now, or they have been changed like DFA in 1.03, where you can't turn while doing them? Did you try jedivmerc 1.03a? It should be balanced, because if the saber is nerfed even more, and the ammo use reduced then the biggest part of the community (everyone except weapons only players like you torment ) will start complaining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H-street Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Glad to hear they "fixed" ( not nerfed) the blue backstab. It should take a minmum of 3 anything blue to kill. Other wise there is no difference between blue and red.. if anything a red backstab should be the same damage as teh blue backstab is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M@nd@lori@n Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 I also hope they take this new 1.04 and at more model and maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuietSith Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Or it could be they are encouraging the community to make their own patch. Ever think of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mutiny32 Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 If they're listening, please, please, fix the infinite loop bug. How is it that when you install this game, the iLoop bug is amplified? Why is that? is it an illegal instruction call or something like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[WD]8541Doc Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Here's my input: Drain -lower the mana cost (it is extreme with 1.03 put it back to 1.02) -more effective in healing the user (by more effective healing you don't have to use it as much, or you can still drain enemies force to no mana) Heal -more effective Force Lightning -little more damage -same mana cost Grip -increase walking speed -little bit more damage (offset by absorb to balance gameplay) Duration based force (Speed, Seeing, Absorb, Protect, etc etc) -same mana cost, but -a diminished regeneration during use of the power Absorb -let it truly absorb all effects of force aka (not getting jinked while jumping, or someone pulling/pushing and throwing the saber at you to get you while your hand's up blocking the pull/push), because that's why they call it absorb... it absorbs the force being used on you. Protect -at highest level, let it friggin protect (none of these percentages of damage absorbed) Dark Rage -fine IMO (shouldn't be as fast as Force Speed, because speed is a seperate skill that takes learning. It's a "specific" force, whereas Rage concentrates on numerous things like, Damage taken, received and speed) so based on that, it should not be as fast as Max Speed. Force Jump -Maybe a little higher jump? Force Speed -less cost? Maybe. -faster... sure, not by that much. Push/Pull -definitely keep the knockdown (that's what it's there for isn't it? If Vader was pulling pipes/vents off of walls, it should definitely pull/push someone to the floor. That's why there's Absorb and Protect) For some reason I don't have a problem of pulling people to the ground? It works quite fine for me...? Sabers -back to 1.02 version -backstab should only be fatal on Strong except if target has 100/100-200 -backstab should have a smaller arc of activation, make it a challenge to execute. If possible, if saber is being thrown, have it be able to be pulled/pushed from/to the user. Guns... fine IMO. You might have to switch to a different weapon instead of spamming 1 gun during the game to kill someone...?? How is thinking about what ammo could be available in a certain area not be skill related? Look at the Massassi Temple map... people SPAM the rocket launcher. Hardly ANYONE uses the Repeater at the top of the level, because most don't want to waste their time finding ammo for it. So, instead... lets all just congregate in the center and wait for the Rocket Launcher to show up, and then grab the ammo as soon as it's available... OR lets hog all the RL ammo, then wait someplace and observe everyone congregating in the center and then spam the f*ck out of them with the RL. Bah! There's my 12 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flippo Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 With Raven releasing the source code, they are basically saying, "We made it, now you fix it. Bye." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted June 2, 2002 Author Share Posted June 2, 2002 To answer a couple questions on the backswing/stabs. First, yes you can still move/rotate while doing them. It seems that the hitboxes have been reduced but it might seem that way since I was playing local and not on the net. It's not a one hit kill anymore. It was just about impossible to get a push/pull knockdown when the target had the opposing force maxed. This combined with the above paragraph spells the end of "assfighting" and pull +backswing combos. At first I wasn't so sure I liked this, but it has grown on me. The only thing that needs to be done to the saber is make med and light stronger. Anyways, I say Raven did a good job on the 1.03a. CTF/TDM are worth playing again, and sabering is more like 1.02. Prepare to face people using nothing but heavy stance again. Heavy does massive damage and can break through defenses. I think light and med should have increased damage as well. 1.03 Forced me to use saber more in games. There ammo was scarce and the pull + backswing was a quick and easy kill. 1.03a puts me back to using guns more, but not 100% of the time like in 1.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tchouky Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Originally posted by flippo With Raven releasing the source code, they are basically saying, "We made it, now you fix it. Bye." you re stupid of course not ! it was just easier for them to release this version of the code .... and they won 't have to release a new version of the sdk when the next patch will be out ..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spider AL Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Ahem, note ye all that the disabling of pull (g_forcePowerDisable 16) in games, makes the two sides of the force better balanced offsetting the huge advantage of absorb/pull/backswing, negates backswing spammage and encourages creative use of push, which never has the same devastating effect. IMO Pass it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda_623 Posted June 2, 2002 Share Posted June 2, 2002 Sounds Great,I hope they make a lot of things better in a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WD_ToRMeNt Posted June 2, 2002 Author Share Posted June 2, 2002 Pull isn't disabled in 1.03. It's just can't seem to knock down an oppenet with maxed push. The same is true for push/pull. Newbies who don't know enough to max them out will still get knocked down. It doesn't matter so much because the backswings have been nerfed. It's better to attack with normal red stance since the damage has been upped bigtime. That's not to bad, every game should have a learning curve. It did seem that even though the knockdown power was reduced, push/pull still moved the target more when you used it. One note to Raven; Good job upping the damage of the red stance. Now you need to intrease the damage of the other two. Red is very dominit in sab v. sab in 1.03a. There are a lot of blue/yellow stance fans that'll complain unless those stances get upped damage as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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