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Is JK2 dead/dying? (merged)


D.L.

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See the thing with blue stance... it was lag or H4x or something... Just like the 8/10 times i kick ArtifeX's ass on his server, jk ;)

 

Anyway i do see what Jah is saying, for the style of play on his server or maybe others, promod might seem a bit too fast but that's expected. The damage is up from 1.04 and at least in my oppinion it is best played in FF, even with heal and drain people still get killed, belive me.

 

As for other nf servers i've played, i never hear complaints, If you lose in Promod it IS your fault, it's not like playing roulette. If more people would get used to it (or stop saying "i like jedimod....just because...) i see good things for promod. Heh what would be cool is after the final version is released to make Raven push it as a new patch (as well as some models/maps) ;)

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I think there should be one more patch. However I'm proposing a real patch, since 1.03 and 1.04 were effectively mods. I've been thinking about this for a while and I've got a pretty good list of changes I would like to see: (I have removed a few from this list because I felt they were based on personal bias and play approach)

 

1) Prevent Saber from blocking sniper shots aimed at feet, its far too easy for anyone to evade snipers simply by switching to saber. Especially since with the blocking animation, the saber doesn't even reach as far as the feet.

 

2) Fix the animation bugs associated with the various "throwables", purely aesthetic, but its rediculous that this is still present after TWO patches, despite being complained about with the original release.

 

3) Have the Toogle/Timed force power icons start flashing 5 seconds before they are due to turn off, this should make force managament a bit easier, especially in CTF where EVERYTHING is about timing.

 

4) Prevent the Toogle/Timed force power icons from being hidden when using the zoom mode of the disrupter, if there is a lot of firefighting around you its hard to tell if seeing has turned itself off.

 

5) Find some way to stop the Forcefield pickup from causing so much lag, it makes ANY game literally unplayable for anyone above about 100 ping.

 

6) Make it so that if you cancel dark rage early, the recovery time is proportionally less

 

7) Fix the bug that makes the red tint of dark rage remain for a few moments after respawning

 

8) Make the blue tint of Absorb a client-side option, using absorb makes it quite difficult to judge player colours, especially if people are using rage and absorb as well. Whose idea was it to make the Rage and Absorb colours the same as the team colours anyway? Do the same with the red tint of Rage

 

9) Put the speed and saber trails on/off option in the actual menu instead of just being a little-known cvar

 

10) Give the player choice over the crosshairs without having to use the console, its mentioned in the manual so I don't know why it was removed from the final version...

 

11) More netcode optimization, many people have said to me that the new protocol in 1.04 has made lag a lot worse

 

12) Make it possible to wall-walk whilst holding a gun. Neo does it in The Matrix, so why can't our Jedi?

 

13) Make Force Speed and Dark Rage less laggy, its practically impossible to use them reliably in any map featuring pits, if your ping is above about 150.

 

14) Put the option to use the simplified HUD in the menu too

 

You will note that any gameplay changes are generally quite minor, and there is nothing as drastic as the changes in 1.03/1.04

 

On the subject of reviews for maps, I heartily agree. Now for some good news, those who played the original JK may remember Hyperview, hosted by Jediknight.net. Well anyway, Hyperview is coming back quite soon (it already has LFN hosting), and the first reviews should also be available soon.

 

I think the real problem with the mods is that the editing community is so expansive, just from reading the mapping and coding forums, i've witnessed how hesistant people are to cooperate with each other... Originally I had hoped Massassi would draw some editors, especially with its flourishing showcase forums and screen-of-the-day system. This isn't the case (yet), but JediKnight2.net is far too broad a site, the editing forums get far too cluttered and its practically impossible to find any useful information since when i've asked for help the thread has been 3 pages back within a day.

 

Another problem with mods, is that people have no idea where to begin. I want to start coding for an MP project i've been planning, but i've yet to find a single tutorial on where to begin. We need REAL editing resources.

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I'm not sure if everyone heard the idea...

 

COMBINE PROMOD & JEDIMOD

 

Because I love both mods, and they do not interfere with each other. Even dual and bouble-bladed sabers go with promod if well balanced.

 

Jedimod is simply cool. Many people play it for this reason. Imagine playing Anakin dual saber vs Dooku or playing Yoda or Obi vs Maul.... This is what brings in new players.

 

Promod makes JK2 worth practicing. Without it you can't even count on your saber blocking - who knows if it'll block this time or not?

 

See the point? Jedimod brings in new players while promod keeps people playing. Now THIS can bring life into JK2.

 

For anyone "anti-promod" - it's still in beta it's not perfect, but the basic idea is right. Maybe it needs tweaking/ balancing whatever, it does (trying to do) something no other mod does that's making it competitive. I guess we can agree on this one?

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Originally posted by Homeboy

I'm not sure if everyone heard the idea...

 

COMBINE PROMOD & JEDIMOD

 

Because I love both mods, and they do not interfere with each other. Even dual and bouble-bladed sabers go with promod if well balanced.

 

Jedimod is simply cool. Many people play it for this reason. Imagine playing Anakin dual saber vs Dooku or playing Yoda or Obi vs Maul.... This is what brings in new players.

 

Promod makes JK2 worth practicing. Without it you can't even count on your saber blocking - who knows if it'll block this time or not?

 

See the point? Jedimod brings in new players while promod keeps people playing. Now THIS can bring life into JK2.

 

For anyone "anti-promod" - it's still in beta it's not perfect, but the basic idea is right. Maybe it needs tweaking/ balancing whatever, it does (trying to do) something no other mod does that's making it competitive. I guess we can agree on this one?

 

In a way I guess this is what I am saying too. I have upped my saber damage and skill through the roof on my server to make it more about skill than a random gereration of events, but alas it is not the exactness of promod.

 

But everytime I try to goto promod everyone either throws a fit or leaves, why? Because to the AVERGE player promod is just far too hard and they do not want to take the time to "relearn" tactics.

 

But I have upped the damages over the last two weeks to prepare them for my weekly running of promod. Perhaps in time they will come to see what it is really about.

 

Also maybe by then some of our comments and suggestions in blending these elements will come to pass. As a gamehost I could think of no mod that could or would be better than these two in combination.

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Originally posted by Sith Maximus

I shall do that, thanks.

 

Also I think you may have the wrong idea about the model cfg. Its nice to have a variety of sizes of players, just like in real life. Plus the fact some are faster and some are slower adds to the difficulty factor of the game.

 

Here's the deal with the model size thing:

 

When you play ProMod, most of your effort is expended maintaining a solid aiming lock on your target. The perfect "center" point that you're trying to get a bead on is right in the center of the player model. So if you're aiming at the opponent's head, your aim won't be quite as strong (by a small margin) as it would be if you aimed at their heart. Same goes for aiming at the feet.

 

If you make player model sizes variable, then you give yourself, as a developer, two choices. Do you:

 

1. Make the player model scaling client-side only and maintain the normal hit box for that player on the server, thus eliminating any advantage you get from having a smaller model, but forcing the attacking player to non-intuitively aim over/under the shortened/enlarged apparent center of mass.

 

or,

 

2. Make both the server and the client understand that the model is smaller, giving small models a big advantage to avoiding swings, and larger models a huge disadvantage to avoiding swings. The center of mass would be correctly rendered, but would require the player to adjust his aim up or down according to who he was fighting. This would give massive advantages to a smaller or larger player wading into a large saber FFA battle, because all the normal sized players already engaged with like-sized enemies would be aiming either too high or too low to have a strong CSC value.

 

Not to mention what would happen if a diminutive Yoda came across a towering Wookie in a saber battle. Yoda would have to aim nearly straight up as he came within range, and the Wookie would have to look straight down. With the way the camera works, looking up would give the Yoda player a bad case of tunnel vision just when they needed their peripheral vision the most.

 

Making small players fast and weak and large players slow and strong does nothing to address these.

 

Both methods have their problems. Believe me, I've thought about this a lot. I don't want to see ProMod servers full of players using the Yoda model because everyone knows they'll be hacked up by a mob of green-eared Lilliputians if they choose anything larger. The only way to not add a balance problem is to avoid adjustable scaling entirely.

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Originally posted by razorace

Very good points, ArtifeX. There's also the fact that animations/attacks weren't set up to attack targets that far off your torso swing height. If the animations were dynamic it would be much easier but that's behound the scope of the game engine.

 

That's another great point. I forgot to mention that one. You can actually be looking completely level while ducked and do a Strong stance right+attack swing and go over the head of another ducked player if you're not careful.

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All good points to be sure.

 

I think you would have to have the center point of the model be just that, the center, reguardless of the player size. The larger players would have a higher center and the smaller players a lower one. You would have to adjust your aim in order to deal with the different size models. And if you lose out on some of your vision, so be it. Its the price you pay for the speed of the model.

 

The mod would have to be the one to state the size of the model. The player, or the server for that matter, should not have the ability to change model sizes. If you did that it would be a total mess. I do not allow the client to dictate size on my server...I did that a few times and it sucked bigtime. Nothing is more nuts than fighting a pint sized vader.

 

But say you went to three sizes. A small for yodas and the ugnaughts (0.6), then a mid size for the normal players (1.0), then a large size for vader and the wookies (as well as some others like jabba, etc) (1.25).

 

Then you would have three aiming variables. Also the head is harder to aim for but should be worth more damage than say center mass or the feet. I use the mod_skillmode in my Jedimod server and this setting does just that. If you go for the head the you can kill in one hit. You can use an overhead blow, lunge or a simple jumping saber swing, but the result is the same, you damage your head that much and your wearing a toe tag.

 

And yes larger slower players would be at a disadvantage against small yoda as far as getting major blows into the center mass of the target, but the same is true of yoda. You would just need more skill in this type of matchup.

 

The larger models would have a distinct advantage in an all out ffa match because of thier size, but it does balance out a little because of the speed reduction. Also I have fought many a yoda as a wookie or vader and I can still beat the crap out of them. Yes my attack stradegy is different, but thats the fun of it.

 

The whole point would be to offer a little more variety to gain a wider fan base for the mod. And yes skill adjustments would need to be made a lot more than it does now. But that is part of the challenge. As it is you have the same speed and size no matter who you are. The size changes add personality to the game as well as combat changes.

 

And you wuld never see a server full of yodas. I always have a very diverse crowd in my server, and in any Jedimod server. People like what they like and thats how they choose. I play as luke or the rebron master most of the time. Both are very close to std size. Very few people use a yoda all of the time. The novelty has worn off and now only the people who really want to be yoda choose him.

 

I think promod is quite realistic, much more so than any other mod or the original game itself. So add in the variety! When I use to kickbox or teah hand to hand combat in the Rangers you never could take the size of your opponent as a sign of how good the were. I had my butt kicked by some little guys in kickboxing, i am 6'4 225lbs, but i also kicked the crap out of guys way bigger than me in size and weight. Its not the size that matters but the tactics behind it.

 

Its your mod and you need to do it as you see fit, but the main reason people play Jedimod so much is the sheer variety of models, sizes, saber colors and the differences in the combat from reg JK2. Now I know you think the combat is the same, but trust me it is not even clos if you use all of the stances.

 

Thanks for listening to me and everyone about our opinions on your mod, and mods in general. I think we all want what is best for the players in the game.:D

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Personally I'd like to see different sizes. Yes, the size for each model should be stated by the mod. Otherwises it's completely chaos.

 

I'd like to suggest for the combined mod: When model scaling and purple/orange stances are not balanced yet, run two types of servers. Competitive ones don't support scaling and extra stances but support saber colors/hilts/same sized models; usual ones support everything while ArtifeX's choice 1 or 2 are both applicable. Then, as more and more extras are play tested and balanced and proven fair in competitions, these extras go into the competitive servers. In the end the two types of server would be the same. There should be one server variable in the mod to choose between the two types.

 

Just my 2 cents. Thanks for reading.

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I'll tell you why I stopped playing the game. For starters, it was because I had a crappy internet connection over the summer. But more than that, regardless of the patches that came out and how they fixed/screwed up the game, I just got bored.

 

JK2 is fundamentally focused around DM or duels. Plain and simple. Don't believe me? Look at the CTF model they have. It's cursory at best. The maps are boring, and I haven't found many other maps out there for CTF that interest me. Plus, I was (and still am) a big fan of RTCW and other class-based team games. I don't particularly like the free-for-all aspect of DM. It bores me. Spawn, kill, die, spawn again. >yawn< I've got better things to do with my time. For me at least, even within the SW universe, DM is only fun for about 10 min. After that, it's just the same old crap.

 

Add to that the various problems in game design and balance of the MP component to this game, and the fact that it required patches to fix (and then patches to fix the patches), and you have the recipe for a dull and lifeless game.

 

I've enjoyed messing around with JediMod, but as has been said, none of these change MY fundamental problem with the game, which is that it's all about the individual, and not about teamwork. If they came out with some sort of class-based, objective-focused mod for JK2 (basically RTCW with SW characters, powers, and classes) then I think I'd be quite into the game. But as it is, the actual gameplay itself has very little to offer someone like me. And I suspect that, while I'm certainly not in the majority, there are a lot of players out there like myself.

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Originally posted by Solo4114

 

I've enjoyed messing around with JediMod, but as has been said, none of these change MY fundamental problem with the game, which is that it's all about the individual, and not about teamwork. If they came out with some sort of class-based, objective-focused mod for JK2 (basically RTCW with SW characters, powers, and classes) then I think I'd be quite into the game. But as it is, the actual gameplay itself has very little to offer someone like me. And I suspect that, while I'm certainly not in the majority, there are a lot of players out there like myself.

 

 

http://www.3dap.com/jediknight/jedifortress/ there is your class based game

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I was reading the other "The Reason JKO is Dying Thread..."

 

But I always come back to this one because I believe Solo4114 actually is telling it like it is, even if a lot of JKO fans don't want to hear it.

 

In addition, I tried Promod on a server under a different name (the message board name is not the one I play under) and while it does improve a lot of aspects of the game, no offense Artifex, it's still the same old DM, Dueling, TDM as before and I don't think any Mod that doesn't fudementally change the game into something NEW -- New being the key word to keep older players and interest newer ones -- Is going to help this game survive or keep my interest in it.

 

In other words, as another player on another thread somewhere regarding the JO community and Mods, what JKO needs is its version of Counter-Strike.

 

Not the game itself of course, but a total conversion that deviates from the standard DM, CTF, TDM and Dueling which is primarily what JKO is geared toward like Solo4114 said... But COULD be doing so much more with in a lot of respects given the team-oriented nature of the SW universe (Bounty Hunters, Gangsters, Jedis, Sith, Imperials, Trade Federation, etc.).

 

Even though n practice CS people run around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to be Rambo and get the most kills per round, the core concept took the tired old game types of DM and TDM and turned it into something completely different based on the games original engine.

 

That's the kind of Mods JKO is desperately in need of right now.

 

Not fifty billion window dressings Mods that are currently out there (and coming :rolleyes: ).

 

That upcoming class-based, objective Mod is a good start.

 

What would be even better is if evolved into a less class based system so that team members could just be autonomous units (Bounty Hunters, Jedi, Sith, etc) and be equally matched if they wanted -- Kind of like CS -- So that if you are more into the Rambo type of gameplay, but want a more structured and objective based type of game other than CTF that would suit you just fine.

 

I mean, this is just merely a throw-away-suggestion since the Mod isn't even out yet... But it is thinking like this that the JKO Community needs to start thinking about if they want their game to continue to thrive and not just be a game that only a thousand or so people play.

 

I understand the goal is not to top other games in terms of players. That would be silly. But if you have a unique game type (Mod) that springs from an already popular game then chances are more people WILL play it, thus giving the game extended life for veteran players and newbies alike.

 

The other factor I wanted to touch on the very thing that Homosexual Ewok brought up in the other "Dying" thread is the attitudes of the players playing JKO and how a the way they treat newbies is often the main thing that drives away potential players who would have normally stayed and become part of the community.

 

A lot of us who play online games are NOT within the target demographic that originally was intended for the game... Even with the SW fanbase being so diverse.

 

Most games are aimed at the 13-25 year old age brackets. That's just fact.

 

But ironically, guess who is mostly playing online games?

 

People like myself who are in their late 20s and older (all the way up to 50s).

 

I'm bringing this up because obviously older players like myself are going to have and want somethnig different out of the games they play than someone younger than us.

 

I know for a fact that as I get older, I do want more team-oriented games and games that require using your wits as well as your weapons. JKO is just a "red-stance" spam fest thanks to Raven and to me, is very boring just like Solo4114 said which is I think why I mainly stopped playing (regardless of what Raven did or didn't do with their patches).

 

This is what I meant when I said it has no depth or skill to it in my previous post a few weeks ago.

 

In addition, DM (guns or sabers or both) is also very boring for someone like me because as you get older you DO lose some of your reflexes -- And more importantly, time to practice your moves as older players are holding full-time jobs, families and other real world, adult responsibilities versus the 13 year old who runs home from school and spends 5 hours a night honing their Blue Lunge because they don't have to worry about paying the rent, putting food on the table, etc.

 

I'm not trying to stereotype or depress anyone with these facts. I'm just stating the reality of the world outside online gaming.

 

The other factor about age and people playing the game is that the attitudes of younger players is 9 times out of 10 more geared toward competition and "owing" people to give themselves an ego boost whereas the older crowds are more toward "owing" people... But also RESPECTING them as well and just making sure everyone is having a good time because of... Maturity.

 

I realize I making broad generalizations and there are of course exceptions to every rule, but I think it is fair to say what I stated above is accurate as it pertains to online gaming in general. At least, it has been my personal experience, anyway.

 

Unfortunately, a lot of the younger and immature players (regardless of age) are the ones the new players meet, they get discouraged or pissed and decide the game isn't worth their time and leave. The sad part about all of this is that they weren't given the chance to even see if JKO is something they would like to be a part of, let alone be good at if given the time to develop their skills.

 

So. There are a lot of things to consider here and I hope everyone takes the time to do so as JKO may not be "dying" in teh strictest sense, but somethnig major is going to have to happen for it to be a game of any substance and staying power.

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Originally posted by Nobodi Kenobi

...In addition, I tried Promod on a server under a different name (the message board name is not the one I play under) and while it does improve a lot of aspects of the game, no offense Artifex, it's still the same old DM, Dueling, TDM as before and I don't think any Mod that doesn't fudementally change the game into something NEW -- New being the key word to keep older players and interest newer ones -- Is going to help this game survive or keep my interest in it.

 

...So. There are a lot of things to consider here and I hope everyone takes the time to do so as JKO may not be "dying" in teh strictest sense, but somethnig major is going to have to happen for it to be a game of any substance and staying power.

 

It's coming. Really, it is coming.

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Nay

 

That was the hype you saw

 

This isn't the death, this is the true community

 

 

All that full server crap were Star War fans who honestly, probably would rather watch the movie than play the game, either A.) Because they don't have the attention span for a game, or B.) The devleopers can just never please them

 

It had a bright start with lots of hype, I mean, look at the reviews, who WOULDN'T go buy this game, I haven't read one bad review for this game

 

It's just this game isn't for everyone, and people are starting to see that, and stop playing, and move to the next hyped up game

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the only thing ive read that was bad about the game was in pc gamer june 2002 issue and they said that the first third of the single player campaign was really tedious, uninspring, and boring to go through, but that everything else in the single player was great once they got the lightsaebr. they ghave it a 91%, 3% lower than what they gave to jediknight1, and i actually agree with them.

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Well, they said the same thing about JKI "Boring till you get the saber" I enjoyed the beginning third just as much as the rest, some of the puzzles were a bit confusing, but that had nothing to do with saber or no saber

 

It's really just an opinion about the game, I mean, if you bought the game for JUST the saber play, oh yea, don't even bother playing the first third of the SP, but I haven't bought a FPS in a while so I just bought it for the fun of shooting Stormies ^_^ I play the Kejim maps over and over, sometimes with and sometimes without the saber

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